A story about a pathetic man's downfall [34 Felony Convictions]

[Ojo Rojo 1,905]

I'm trying very hard to remain objective about this whole thing. It's impossible to draw any conclusions about Trump's criminal liability or other categorized wrongdoing based on the information publicly available.  We know he had documents he wasn't supposed to have. That's all we know right now. There are a whole lot of other bad facts here and it stinks to high heaven, but unless there was truly sensitive information in there or he was trying to do something illegal with them, like selling state secrets, then this may not be that big of a deal.  It would be very similar to Hilary's email thing, in my opinion, if the docs were basically benign and he wasn't doing anything with them. 

[The Dog 43,805]

 

[Red Five 40,664]

2 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

unless there was truly sensitive information in there or he was trying to do something illegal with them, like selling state secrets, then this may not be that big of a deal.

Spoiler alert. There was truly sensitive information in there and he was trying to do something illegal with them. 

[Ojo Rojo 1,905]

1 minute ago, Red Five said:

Spoiler alert. There was truly sensitive information in there and he was trying to do something illegal with them. 

Oh, I hope that both of those things are true.  I'm just saying we can't take that for granted. Otherwise, we are guilty of the same level of fantasy without facts as the Trumptards.

[C-Man 27,054]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

 

It appears the obstruction and espionage cases are separate?

emptywheel got an answer:

https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1559204213338652676?s=20&t=nFqNEQRFPegyGdWnmTTq_A

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,414]

I would bet anything that we're not far from Trump proclaiming that his standing order, for declassification at his home, was not declassifying them in general but declassifying them for him alone in his post-presidency. Therefore the standard declassify process was not required.

Trump is going to create one excuse after another. Eventually someone on Twitter will help him find the best story that the Right can live with. Even to point that selling secrets to "allies" isn't real espionage. He's only helping our allies because sleepy Joe can't be expected to live up to our commitments.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Pig Bellmont 8,691]

22 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

Yes, let’s give a copy to Marco Rubio and other politicians to leak state secrets publicly and/or give copies back to Trump. Fuck that noise

[Neonmoon 38,127]

Yeah, because the people that originally classified the documents were probably full of shit. Politicians need to weigh in and see if they really need to be classified

[RomaVicta 29,792]

19 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Oh, I hope that both of those things are true.  I'm just saying we can't take that for granted. Otherwise, we are guilty of the same level of fantasy without facts as the Trumptards.

"Trumptards" don't care about facts when they speculate about what's going on. The Deep State is acting in mysterious ways. QAnon is our source. THIS IS THE REAL TRUTH! DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!

We're discussing an actual law enforcement action where we have hard evidence of wrongdoing. We have the subject of the investigation and his coterie floating obvious lie after obvious lie. Our speculations may be wrong, but they're presented as speculation with the knowledge they may be wrong.

Similarity accusation:

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,307]

The intellligence about Macron suggests some sinister plan of revenge against the French president for his disdain of Trump and crushing the Donald's hand before Donald could crush Macron's. Trump is nothing if not petty.

A million times this. Macron's handshake was a "fuck you, bully, I'm dragging my balls across your chin with your own move" tactic Trump was shocked and physically hurt in the exchange, and the world got to see him do everything but whimper like a dog (to use one his favorite similes).

Dotard was hoping there's Intel on Macron liking to diddle little girls. There's probably nothing more than Macron secretly preferring California wines over French, otherwise Trump would have already spilled it.

[Gil Bang 25,898]

2 hours ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

A million times this. Macron's handshake was a "fuck you, bully, I'm dragging my balls across your chin with your own move" tactic Trump was shocked and physically hurt in the exchange, and the world got to see him do everything but whimper like a dog (to use one his favorite similes).

Dotard was hoping there's Intel on Macron liking to diddle little girls. There's probably nothing more than Macron secretly preferring California wines over French, otherwise Trump would have already spilled it.
 

Not to mention Melania looked like her snatch was wet for the first time in years when she met Macron

http://images.app.goo.gl/RVYiF3E2keiMwPqVA

Edited August 15, 2022 by Gil Bang

[Gil Bang 25,898]

http://images.app.goo.gl/RVYiF3E2keiMwPqVA

[Hookah Horns 3,081]

10 minutes ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

There's probably nothing more than Macron secretly preferring California wines over French
 

Sacré bleu!

France would burn.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,151]

4 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

Sacré bleu!

France would burn.

I would join them.

[Beau Vine 54,001]

21 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

Not to mention Melania looked like her snatch was wet for the first time in years when she met Macron

https://images.app.goo.gl/RVYiF3E2keiMwPqVA

 

19 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

http://images.app.goo.gl/RVYiF3E2keiMwPqVA

For fuck's sake, newb:

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Trump now claiming FBI seized his passports in search.  Big if true but who the fuck knows with this guy.

[Macanudo 12,927]

Question about "the boxes".   How exactly do we know what was taken?  Were the contents  cataloged and documented before the boxes are sent to the National Archives?  I've done my fair share of records retention and our cataloging was, um, sloppy. 

[hobbes2702 12,844]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Trump now claiming FBI seized his passports in search.  Big if true but who the fuck knows with this guy.

Is there a source on this?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

Is there a source on this?

Yes, Donald Trump

[hobbes2702 12,844]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Yes, Donald Trump

Post it then. Why are you acting like you’re new here.

[Beau Vine 54,001]

[TwiceHorn 31,280]

5 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

 

For fuck's sake, newb:

Kinda looks like ol' Manny grabbin' her by the pussy.  With that same iron grip.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

[Fudge Nuggets 19,151]

2 hours ago, Seasick Sailor said:

Does anyone know what venue this case would have to be tried in? If it's in Florida, then the above may be true, but if it's D.C., it shouldn't be too hard to impanel a jury that doesn't include at least hard-core Trump supporters. 

Macaroon should have him extradited to Paris and bring the guillotine out of cold storage.

Or if we want to do the neutral field venue thing then The Hague works.

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

[Pato del Muerto 52,342]

4 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Wouldn’t this be viewable (not redacted) in the inventory?

also, 2 non-expired passports?

Edited August 15, 2022 by Pato del Muerto

[Pig Bellmont 8,691]

9 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Question about "the boxes".   How exactly do we know what was taken?  Were the contents  cataloged and documented before the boxes are sent to the National Archives?  I've done my fair share of records retention and our cataloging was, um, sloppy. 

So the gov gave Trump a receipt of the things it took. He has an explainer about the numbering system and what it likely means here:

https://chrisgeidner.substack.com/p/thoughts-on-a-particular-search-warrant?utm_source=email

[B00M 6,280]

4 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Narrator: they didn't

[Goredho 17,348]

46 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

I'm trying very hard to remain objective about this whole thing. It's impossible to draw any conclusions about Trump's criminal liability or other categorized wrongdoing based on the information publicly available.  We know he had documents he wasn't supposed to have. That's all we know right now. There are a whole lot of other bad facts here and it stinks to high heaven, but unless there was truly sensitive information in there or he was trying to do something illegal with them, like selling state secrets, then this may not be that big of a deal.  It would be very similar to Hilary's email thing, in my opinion, if the docs were basically benign and he wasn't doing anything with them. 

I am with you on this.  There was an FBI raid to seize classified materials that should not have been removed from the WH, but everything about it pertaining to nuclear secrets, additional crimes Trump might have committed with them, what charges he might face and punishment he might receive are all just speculative mental masturbation with Donald J Trump as the muse.

I am now choosing to mentally masturbate about what sex crimes I might allow Greek/EU politician Eva Kaili to commit against me.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Just now, B00M said:

Narrator: they didn't

Me thinks Trump is trying to bait the Feds into correcting the record or they actually did confiscate his passports. 

[Hookah Horns 3,081]

2 minutes ago, Goredho said:

I am with you on this.  There was an FBI raid to seize classified materials that should not have been removed from the WH, but everything about it pertaining to nuclear secrets, additional crimes Trump might have committed with them, what charges he might face and punishment he might receive are all just speculative mental masturbation with Donald J Trump as the muse.

I am now choosing to mentally masturbate about what sex crimes I might allow Greek/EU politician Eva Kaili to commit against me.

What's going on with that chin? Looks like a butt chin that's missing a cheek.

[Macanudo 12,927]

2 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

So the gov gave Trump a receipt of the things it took. He has an explainer about the numbering system and what it likely means here:

https://chrisgeidner.substack.com/p/thoughts-on-a-particular-search-warrant?utm_source=email

But I'm talking about what was originally Taken by Trumpsters.   How do we know what they took?

[Js1 85,110]

6 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Wouldn’t this be viewable (not redacted) in the inventory?

also, 2 non-expired passports?

One must be his Saudi or Russian passport.

[Hookah Horns 3,081]

5 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

But I'm talking about what was originally Taken by Trumpsters.   How do we know what they took?

We don't and we won't. On account of them being top secret and all.

[hobbes2702 12,844]

12 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Wouldn’t this be viewable (not redacted) in the inventory?

Same question here.

[Pig Bellmont 8,691]

7 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

But I'm talking about what was originally Taken by Trumpsters.   How do we know what they took?

Those details are probably in the affidavit that was filed in the application for a search warrant. That’s not public, but a redacted version may become public if the NYT wins its case to unseal. The gov has only filed for release of the warrant itself, I believe- and Trump is the one who leaked that over the weekend. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

Quote

 

Donald Trump has warned that “terrible things are going to happen” as he faces the blame for violence and threats directed at FBI agents.

“The country is in a very dangerous position. There is tremendous anger, like I’ve never seen before, over all of the scams, and this new one, years of scams and witch hunts, and now this,” Mr Trump told Fox News Digital.

The former president told the outlet that he “will do whatever” he can “to help the country”, adding that “temperature has to be brought down”.

Trump supporters and his GOP allies reacted with outrage following the search of Mar-a-Lago by the FBI last week.

Mr Trump said that Americans are “not going to stand for another scam” as the unsealed search warrant revealed that he’s being investigated for obstruction of justice and possible violations of the Espionage Act, as well as other offences.

 

Quote

“There has never been a time like this where law enforcement has been used to break into the house of a former president of the United States, and there is tremendous anger in the country, at a level that has never been seen before, other than during very perilous times,” he added.

Quote

 

“People are so angry at what is taking place,” he said, adding that “the temperature has to be brought down in the country. If it isn’t, terrible things are going to happen”.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-fbi-search-violence-b2145439.html

 

 

[Macanudo 12,927]

9 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

We don't and we won't. On account of them being top secret and all.

I'm not trying to figure out what was taken or expect the press to do so.  I'm curious how the government knows something, anything was missing.   

We know Trump took boxes of stuff.  For all we know it was Lindsey's dildos and Ted's ball gag.

[chainsaw 9,838]

He probably forgot to look for them in his luggage

[Chopper 17,169]

The weird thing about a search warrant is that right there under the same federal law authorizing a judge or a  magistrate judge to sign a search warrant is a law allowing the subject of a search to file for return of any property they believe was seized illegally. Either that or they can just whine like a bitch about it. But that person's choice says a lot about whether they truly believe they're aggrieved or if they're just making shit up. Also available to a person who believes they've been the subject of an illegal search and seizure is the filing of a temporary restraining order to prevent the government from accessing the seized materials. I don't believe we've seen trump's lawyers file either motion as of yet which probably tells us he fears/knows he'll lose.

When the indictment comes down it'll almost certainly be through a grand jury. It will take some time to go through all the evidence. With the 60 days worth of internal mar lago surveillance video that was subpoenaed, the scope of the raid, the huge haul of seized classified documents, and the Attorney General's careful insistence that they will follow the letter of the law, I believe the evidence points to an indictment coming down and I think the probability is pretty heavy on that side. Dotard donnie has probably been advised by his attorneys that it's coming or the pig wouldn't be squealing so loud.

[Francisco 2.0 32,341]

From March:

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Francisco 2.0

[Hermanator 6,944]

14 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

I'm not trying to figure out what was taken or expect the press to do so.  I'm curious how the government knows something, anything was missing.   

We know Trump took boxes of stuff.  For all we know it was Lindsey's dildos and Ted's ball gag.

When material is classified it's documented. They keep track of those things with a fairly complex system of documentation. 

That's how they know exactly what Trump took, and the informant inside Trump's circle let them know exactly where it was. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Hermanator

[Chopper 17,169]

Did someone post here they think the Georgia grand jury is informational only? I think I saw that. Anyway...this dude's a nyt reporter.

 

[Hagbard Celine 10,763]

3 hours ago, Hermanator said:

The coincidences and timing with this stuff, the Saudi's 2 billion dollar payment to the family, and knowing exactly who and what Trump is are too strong for this to be just a "we want our SCI documents back so we're going to raid a former president for them". 

the golf league all of a sudden looks weird

[Chopper 17,169]

nyt article

Giuliani Is Told He Is a Target of Trump Election Inquiry in Georgia

Rudolph W. Giuliani, as former President Donald J. Trump’s personal lawyer, spearheaded efforts to keep Mr. Trump in power.

 

Spoiler

Aug. 15, 2022 Updated 1:29 p.m. ET

ATLANTA — Lawyers for Rudolph W. Giuliani have been told that he is a target of a criminal investigation in Georgia into election interference by Donald J. Trump and his advisers.

One of Mr. Giuliani’s lawyers said in an interview that he was notified on Monday. On the same day, a federal judge rejected efforts by another key Trump ally, Senator Lindsey Graham, to avoid giving testimony before a special grand jury in Atlanta.

Mr. Giuliani, who as Mr. Trump’s personal lawyer spearheaded efforts to keep Mr. Trump in power, emerged in recent weeks as a central figure in the inquiry being conducted by Fani T. Willis, the district attorney of Fulton County, Ga., which encompasses most of Atlanta.

Earlier this summer, prosecutors questioned witnesses before the special grand jury about Mr. Giuliani’s appearances before state legislative panels in December 2020, when he spent hours peddling false conspiracy theories about secret suitcases of Democratic ballots and corrupted voting machines.

For Mr. Giuliani, the former mayor of New York, the developments are the latest in a widening swath of trouble, though he got some good news recently when it emerged that he was unlikely to face charges in a federal criminal inquiry into his ties to Ukraine during the 2020 presidential campaign.

Mr. Giuliani is scheduled to appear before the special grand jury on Wednesday at a downtown Atlanta courthouse. His lawyer, Robert Costello, said in the interview that Mr. Giuliani would probably invoke attorney-client privilege if asked questions about his dealings with Mr. Trump. “If these people think he’s going to talk about conversations between him and President Trump, they’re delusional,” Mr. Costello said.

The rejection of Senator Graham’s effort to avoid testifying came in a written order from a Federal District Court judge in Atlanta, Leigh Martin May. Mr. Graham, a Republican of South Carolina, is now set to testify on Aug. 23.

The judge found that prosecutors had shown that there is “a special need for Mr. Graham’s testimony on issues relating to alleged attempts to influence or disrupt the lawful administration of Georgia’s 2022 elections.”

Lawyers for Mr. Graham have said that he was informed by prosecutors that he was a witness, not a target.

Prosecutors want his testimony for a number of reasons. Among them are two phone calls that Mr. Graham placed just after the 2020 election to Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state, in which Mr. Graham inquired about ways to help Mr. Trump by invalidating certain mail-in votes.

Mr. Giuliani’s postelection activities on Mr. Trump’s behalf have created problems for him on a number of fronts. The House committee in Washington investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol has highlighted video footage of Mr. Giuliani’s activities in Georgia, and the scheme to create rival slates of presidential electors is also the subject of an intensifying investigation by the Department of Justice. Mr. Giuliani is among the subjects of civil suits by two makers of voting machines, Dominion and Smartmatic, that seek billions of dollars in damages.

Much of Mr. Giuliani’s conduct in Georgia was laid out last year by the New York State appellate court that suspended his law license. The court issued a 33-page report that mentioned Georgia 35 times and described “numerous false and misleading statements regarding the Georgia presidential election results” made by Mr. Giuliani. The court noted, for instance, that Mr. Giuliani had falsely claimed that tens of thousands of underage teenagers had voted illegally in Georgia, even though an audit by Georgia’s secretary of state found that no one under the age of 18 had voted in the 2020 election.

Mr. Giuliani was also a central figure in the Trump campaign’s plan to urge lawmakers in swing states to appoint different slates of electors than those chosen by voters, which is part of the Georgia inquiry as well as the Justice Department investigation.

A spokesman for the Fulton County district attorney’s office declined to comment on Monday. In the past, Ms. Willis has said the Georgia investigation could result in racketeering or conspiracy charges involving multiple defendants.

Norman Eisen, a lawyer who served as special counsel to the House Judiciary Committee during the first impeachment and trial of Mr. Trump, said he believed that identifying Mr. Giuliani as a target could mean that Mr. Trump will eventually be a target as well.

“There is no way Giuliani is a target of the D.A.’s investigation and Trump does not end up as one,” Mr. Eisen said in an interview Monday. “They are simply too entangled factually and legally in the attempt to use fake electors and other means to overturn the Georgia election results.”

Lawyers for Mr. Giuliani have said that he did nothing improper in Georgia, and that he has been willing to cooperate. But they have been sparring with Ms. Willis’s office over her efforts to get him to testify before the grand jury. Mr. Giuliani’s lawyers have said a doctor recommended that Mr. Giuliani not travel by air because of a procedure he underwent in early July to insert cardiac stents, and they have sought to delay his testimony or have it conducted by video conference, an idea the district attorney’s office has resisted.

Judge Robert C.I. McBurney of Fulton County Superior Court said last week that Mr. Giuliani could travel to Atlanta “on a train, on a bus or Uber,” and set a date for Wednesday, after agreeing to delay his appearance for more than a week. Mr. Giuliani’s lawyers indicated that in any case, their client would have little to say if he was designated as a target of the investigation.

“I think it would be meanspirited to make — as a target, to make him travel down here, particularly by these alternative means, when there likely would not be very much testimony before the grand jury,” another Giuliani attorney, William H. Thomas Jr., said after a court hearing.

At least 17 other people have already been designated as targets who could face charges in the investigation, including two state senators and the head of the state Republican Party.

Lawyers for Mr. Graham had based their argument on the Constitution’s speech and debate clause, which shields lawmakers from being questioned over things they say that are related to their official duties. Among other things, they also argued that Mr. Graham, as a high-ranking official, could only be called under “extraordinary circumstances.”

Judge May ruled that prosecutors had shown that such extraordinary circumstances exist.

Mr. Graham has argued that his phone calls to Mr. Raffensperger were protected under the speech and debate clause because they were investigatory in nature, and were related to his position, at the time, as chairman of the Judiciary Committee. But the judge, in her order, noted that “individuals on the calls have publicly suggested that Senator Graham was not simply engaged in legislative fact-finding,” and was “seeking to influence Secretary Raffensperger’s actions” to benefit Mr. Trump. (Mr. Raffensperger has said that Mr. Graham seemed to suggest to him that he find a way to discard legally cast ballots.)

 

 

Judge May’s ruling essentially left it to the state court to determine which elements of Mr. Graham’s calls should be shielded in accordance with the speech and debate clause.

 

 

But she also noted that, beyond the phone calls, there were numerous other items of interest to the special grand jury that were unquestionably fair game, including Mr. Graham’s “potential communications and coordination with the Trump campaign and its postelection efforts in Georgia.”

Prosecutors are demanding that two other lawyers for the Trump team, Jenna Ellis and John Eastman, appear before the special grand jury as well. The participation of Ms. Ellis, a Colorado resident, will be addressed in a court hearing scheduled for Tuesday in Fort Collins, Colo. A similar hearing will be held for Mr. Eastman, a New Mexico resident, at a courthouse in Santa Fe, N.M. on Wednesday.

Mr. Costello, the lawyer for Mr. Giuliani, was asked by a reporter on Monday what means of transportation his client would use as he made his way to Atlanta from New York.

“No comment,” Mr. Costello said.

 

Richard Fausset is a correspondent based in Atlanta.

 

 

[Constant 6,722]

6 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

the golf league all of a sudden looks weird

Golf league that held an event at Trumps property. 

[C-Man 27,054]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Every time I see these clowns, I think of this group of fictional TV moron "newscasters":

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

He probably forgot to look for them in his luggage

DOJ should sign a letter attesting that they have none of Donald Trump's passports. You know, like Trump did saying he had no more confidential documents.

[Tuco 5,076]

1 hour ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Yes, let’s give a copy to Marco Rubio and other politicians to leak state secrets publicly and/or give copies back to Trump. Fuck that noise

1. Gives the politicians (both sides) an opportunity to characterize the documents in a way the professionals can't refute. 

2. Gives the politicians an opportunity to understand was included, figure out how bad it is, and determine a strategy for when/if it becomes public. 

53 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Me thinks Trump is trying to bait the Feds into correcting the record or they actually did confiscate his passports. 

Maybe it wasn't seized during the warrant.  Maybe he was asked to surrender it.  If so, that's a pretty big deal because (I would assume) he would have to agree to surrender it to prevent the Feds taking more significant actions.  So, I doubt it.  I doubt he would agree to it and then broadcast it.  But I also didn't think he would take a sharpie to a hurricane map, so nothing is impossible. 

[Biff Tannen 45,495]

Unless DOJ drops an indictment prior to the midterms, I think this is all over.  I understand that the process is slow, so don't start with that.  That's not the point.  As one Incredulity said right when this started (ugh), if nothing substantial comes of this, it will be one of the worst political blunders in American history.  Yes, I know the DOJ isn't supposed to be political.  That doesn't mean they should be unaware of the consequences of their actions, if they truly have the good of the country in mind.

[atomheartbevo 89,447]

3 hours ago, Bullneck said:

I cheerfully disagree with you and think you're wrong.  Later in this thread The Dog posted some good tweets about what Trump is up against.

The US has their boot on his throat right now.  It may not be the first conviction that comes down (Fani might get him first) but the there is just too much for him to stop, and his friends and family aren't taking a bullet for him.

Definitely agree his family and friends won’t take the fall.  HIs idiot followers would, but family and friends won’t, not to mention that they’ve seen him shit all over people and pretend like they meant nothing to him when they stopped being useful to him.  They are all in on the grift.

And he can’t pardon them.