A story about a pathetic man's downfall [34 Felony Convictions]

[atomheartbevo 89674]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

6 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Every time I see these clowns, I think of this group of fictional TV moron "newscasters":

Fox and Friends always reminds me of this:

 

[956 Worldwide 34715]

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Wouldn’t this be viewable (not redacted) in the inventory?

also, 2 non-expired passports?

He’d ordinarily have a diplomatic passport (former Presidents can keep theirs) and a regular passport. 

[Willfully Horn 8017]

6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's not really "technically" at all.  It's a pretty simple fact.  If classification or lack thereof provided a defense to these crimes (it does not), Trump's declassification ability would provide a pretty solid defense.  Except there's a massive fact question as to whether Trump invoked that power when he still had it.

If you have no stomach for "technicalities," you better avoid legal issues altogether, because the law is nothing but technicalities.

That thread loses a lot of credibility with that initial assertion.  The more in depth politifact article from years back, with Vladeck weighing in.  https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

 

If a president can declassify anything, and if Trump, as he publicly stated, declassified all the Hillary Clinton investigation info, then where, pray tell, is that information?

Politifact seems to have erred. There are nuclear secrets which no one can declassify.

Navy v. Egan 

[The Dog 44053]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

He’d ordinarily have a diplomatic passport (former Presidents can keep theirs) and a regular passport. 

Yup:

 

[washparkhorn 9939]

A reminder of what normal transitions looked like before Trump:

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

I'm not trying to figure out what was taken or expect the press to do so.  I'm curious how the government knows something, anything was missing.   

We know Trump took boxes of stuff.  For all we know it was Lindsey's dildos and Ted's ball gag.

No idea if this is the case, but I'd imagine some classified document popping up in foreign intelligence gathering would be a pretty big tip-off.

[TwiceHorn 31475]

48 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Did someone post here they think the Georgia grand jury is informational only? I think I saw that. Anyway...this dude's a nyt reporter.

 

I read somewhere credible that the Fulton County gj is investigational only and cannot or will not consider an indictment. 

[Gil Bang 25960]

 

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

So as usual, Twitter doesn't know fuck all about nothing.

[956 Worldwide 34715]

2 hours ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Oh, I hope that both of those things are true.  I'm just saying we can't take that for granted. Otherwise, we are guilty of the same level of fantasy without facts as the Trumptards.

You can usually be certain that the stuff marked Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmentalized Information is in fact, sensitive.  You can bump into a certain amount of over-classification but for the most part, people prefer to keep things at the lowest level possible.  SCI means that even if you HAVE the needed clearance, you still don’t get to look at the stuff unless you have a demonstrated need and are read in.  The smaller the circle of readers, the less useful something really is. 
 

At that level, you are usually dealing with sources, methods, designs, deployments and similar extremely sensitive details. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

24 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Definitely agree his family and friends won’t take the fall.  HIs idiot followers would, but family and friends won’t, not to mention that they’ve seen him shit all over people and pretend like they meant nothing to him when they stopped being useful to him.  They are all in on the grift.

And he can’t pardon them.

Family? I'm reluctant to agree as family dynamics can be very dysfunctional and mind-boggling, but you're probably right...

Ivana Trump was cremated prior to burial on the grounds of Bedminster, and regardless of the whole tax break news that was bandied about, it could be that the family thought her grave site was less likely to be defaced or vandalized there...oh, who am I kidding... unless that was Ivana's dying wish, one has to suspect that money and power and the pursuit of both are all that matters. Put either in jeopardy, and they'll talk.

 

Also: thanks to @Willfully Horn for the Stonekettle link a few pages back, rep to you.

[Hagbard Celine 10865]

times article posted on the last page paywall defeated

https://www.textise.net/showText.aspx?strURL=https%3A//www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-documents-explanations.html#site-content

[TexArcher 37774]

3 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

So as usual, Twitter doesn't know fuck all about nothing.

Twitter don't know shit about fuck.

[Chopper 17235]

36 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Unless DOJ drops an indictment prior to the midterms, I think this is all over.  I understand that the process is slow, so don't start with that.  That's not the point.  As one Incredulity said right when this started (ugh), if nothing substantial comes of this, it will be one of the worst political blunders in American history.  Yes, I know the DOJ isn't supposed to be political.  That doesn't mean they should be unaware of the consequences of their actions, if they truly have the good of the country in mind.

 So what's your theory for why DOJ would get a judge to sign off on a search warrant covering not just records that should have been returned under the Presidential Records Act, but allowed the gov't to conduct the search under specific statutes dealing with obstruction of justice and stealing/mishandling classified information? If it were simply because they wanted the return of  govt. records the PRA would have been more than sufficient, would it not? Another reason why I believe pretty strongly an indictment is coming.

[Underdog 28645]

1 hour ago, Hagbard Celine said:

the golf league all of a sudden looks weird

Ivana knew!  RIP. 

[chainsaw 9869]

Just now, Chopper said:

 So what's your theory for why DOJ would get a judge to sign off on a search warrant covering not just records that should have been returned under the Presidential Records Act, but allowed the gov't to conduct the search under specific statutes dealing with obstruction of justice and stealing/mishandling classified information? If it were simply because they wanted the return of  govt. records the PRA would have been more than sufficient, would it not? Another reason why I believe pretty strongly an indictment is coming.

I agree with this. It doesn't feel proper for Garland to use a search warrant for any purpose other than a criminal investigation.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20400]

[chainsaw 9869]

2 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

He's mad that the weekend rallies were duds.

[Red Five 40859]

[royiv 9319]

4 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

*Former President

[dieucla98 2942]

Hey dumbshit, the FBI doesn't check your Outlook calendar for availability before conducting a search. Don't think you're some kind of special case.

If you want to be treated like former presidents, maybe you should have acted like one in the first place.

[A-Tex Devil 2446]

7 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

[Gil Bang 25960]

2 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

 

For fuck's sake, newb:

And here's how she looked before she melted

 

 

 

[Bama Chick 28596]

Oh, I hope that both of those things are true.  I'm just saying we can't take that for granted. Otherwise, we are guilty of the same level of fantasy without facts as the Trumptards.

This is why we lose.

We bring thoughtfulness and objectivity to a shit throwing piss fight.

[Underdog 28645]

2 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

What's going on with that chin? Looks like a butt chin that's missing a cheek.

Does Barry Manilow know you raid his wardrobe? 

[Goredho 17406]

4 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

We bring thoughtfulness and objectivity to a shit throwing piss fight.

New Surly motto.

[Ojo Rojo 1965]

2 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

This is why we lose.

We bring thoughtfulness and objectivity to a shit throwing piss fight.

So in order to "win" we must become the thing that has brought about the need for a battle in the first place?  What's the point of that?  When thoughtfulness and objectivity are seen as weakness, we have already lost. Winning the right way takes patience, because it takes longer with more frustration and aggravation along the way.  I'm an optimist and I'm old enough to take a longer view. Some crazy, scary and disappointing shit has happened, but we're still here. Things are still working more or less the way they are supposed to. Let's keep going.

[TwiceHorn 31475]

50 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

If a president can declassify anything, and if Trump, as he publicly stated, declassified all the Hillary Clinton investigation info, then where, pray tell, is that information?

Politifact seems to have erred. There are nuclear secrets which no one can declassify.

Navy v. Egan 

Both of the poltiifact articles I referenced cite that case. https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/484/518

The case is not directly on point about anything, except that it says that decisions about security clearances and related matters are the sole province of the Executive.  In the first instance, that means executive agencies and departments, like Defense, AEC, etc. that make rules about security clearances and classifications.  But, POTUS is the head of the Executive, and thus retains ultimate control over all of it, as demonstrated by past administrations' Executive Orders regarding declassification (not all EOs are attempts to legislate in the absence of congressional action, some, many of them deal with issues that are "entrusted" to the Executive by the Constitution and these would be examples).

Now, the Atomic Energy Act may purport to deprive the president of the ability to declassify information relating to "nukes."  But that's an act of Congress that would infringe on the sole province of the Executive, as set forth in Egan and would thus be unconstitutional.   The 2017 Politifact article mentions that, but not in the specific context of the Atomic Energy Act.

A lot of these security experts know how classification and clearances work for lower grades, but for the most part are out of their depth in what the president can and can't do.  They assume that the usual rules apply, and they are very likely wrong about that.

[Beau Vine 54230]

34 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I would like to go on record stating that I for one am not angry, hurt, and greatly embarrassed by it.  Rather, I am gleeful, happy, and greatly amused by the events stated.

[Red Five 40859]

Every now and then you read/see something that is just a huge kick in the teeth that that guy was president for four years. That rant is one of them. 

And frankly, it just angers me, because all it does is remind me of the time Obama asked for spicy mustard on his burger. 

[BrickHorn 18236]

47 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Wait. So our republic is a democracy?

[Foosters 17856]

1 minute ago, BrickHorn said:

Wait. So our republic is a democracy?

Close.

Our democracy is a republic, but the republic is not a democracy. 

[TwiceHorn 31475]

56 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I agree with this. It doesn't feel proper for Garland to use a search warrant for any purpose other than a criminal investigation.

I tend to agree.  The search warrant indicates they had reason to believe, indeed strongly suspect or even know, he was withholding documents, but not that they KNEW it or knew the extent of what he had.  A fair number of search warrants come back empty as far as incriminating evidence.

So, now they know.  Any type of civil litigation under the PRA or other statute/cause of action would still rely on Trump's good faith (backed by civil and criminal penalties) in responding truthfully to requests for production of documents, just like the subpoena. And with Trump, we know where that goes.

So, a search warrant more reliably a ) determines that there are such documents/things in his possession and b) provides a means to seize them that isn't available with civil process, or, as we have seen, by subpoena from a grand jury, a criminal process.

Still, before an indictment, they have to explore the whys and wherefores surrounding Trump's possession of this stuff, even though possession alone should be enough to convict on at least a couple of counts.

So, the warrant serves a dual purpose:  remove the things from his possession and provide evidence for any subsequent prosecution, as well as for investigating any further security breaches, i.e. what Trump  or someone else (Chinese visitors to MAL, perhaps) may have done with it.

So, I don't think you can say it was for one purpose or the other, exclusively.  Garland says he'll follow the evidence.  I tend to believe him.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[RomaVicta 29908]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Definitely agree his family and friends won’t take the fall.  HIs idiot followers would, but family and friends won’t, not to mention that they’ve seen him shit all over people and pretend like they meant nothing to him when they stopped being useful to him.  They are all in on the grift.

And he can’t pardon them.

While in office he had a standing pardon for anyone associated with him being accused of a crime. It's a well known presidential power. A lot of people don't know that, but it's true.

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Trump going to run again on a platform that all warrants must be announced and done at a convenient time.

And I too am not angry at the raid, hurt, or greatly embarrassed by it. If you had top secret docs sitting in the pool house, it was needed. Just imagine how upset you're going to be if you end up being arrested for it.

[Bullneck 19092]

ruh Roh. 

[956 Worldwide 34715]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Both of the poltiifact articles I referenced cite that case. https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/484/518

The case is not directly on point about anything, except that it says that decisions about security clearances and related matters are the sole province of the Executive.  In the first instance, that means executive agencies and departments, like Defense, AEC, etc. that make rules about security clearances and classifications.  But, POTUS is the head of the Executive, and thus retains ultimate control over all of it, as demonstrated by past administrations' Executive Orders regarding declassification (not all EOs are attempts to legislate in the absence of congressional action, some, many of them deal with issues that are "entrusted" to the Executive by the Constitution and these would be examples).

Now, the Atomic Energy Act may purport to deprive the president of the ability to declassify information relating to "nukes."  But that's an act of Congress that would infringe on the sole province of the Executive, as set forth in Egan and would thus be unconstitutional.   The 2017 Politifact article mentions that, but not in the specific context of the Atomic Energy Act.

A lot of these security experts know how classification and clearances work for lower grades, but for the most part are out of their depth in what the president can and can't do.  They assume that the usual rules apply, and they are very likely wrong about that.

Not so much the lower grades as the President himself. I tend to have an expansive view of what the executive can do. The hypothetical march out of the briefing room to tell the American people something he decided is important is, to my non-legal mind, perfectly fair use of executive power. 
 

But what’s infuriating is that this isn’t good faith and arguments like “he just has to think it” or “by the very act of mishandling it, he declassified it” might be persuasive in court, they are truly garbage from a reality standpoint. Here’s how you know— any schmuck who shared the same damn information or a different copy of the stuff between Inauguration Day and Friday would have gone down hard. Trumps lawyers wouldn’t swoop in to say “hey wait, that stuff got declassified when we left the White House and took it to MAL.” They wanted it because it was valuable and it was (is) valuable because it was (is) highly classified. 

[Chopper 17235]

5 hours ago, Seasick Sailor said:

Does anyone know what venue this case would have to be tried in? If it's in Florida, then the above may be true, but if it's D.C., it shouldn't be too hard to impanel a jury that doesn't include at least hard-core Trump supporters. 

A defendant is tried where the crime was committed so it depends what the charges are. If he were prosecuted for obstruction of certain investigations that were DC-based, jurisdiction would be in DC. I can see arguments for why jurisdiction would potentially fall under the federal court in Southern Florida for charges related to mishandling of classified information but the Feds may have arguments for why that should also be in DC. I hope we fucking find out!

[lemonlime 5503]

It certainly seems like they're pursuing and indictment, and not just trying to get the records back.

 

['stache 21816]

42 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

So in order to "win" we must become the thing that has brought about the need for a battle in the first place?  What's the point of that?  When thoughtfulness and objectivity are seen as weakness, we have already lost. Winning the right way takes patience, because it takes longer with more frustration and aggravation along the way.  I'm an optimist and I'm old enough to take a longer view. Some crazy, scary and disappointing shit has happened, but we're still here. Things are still working more or less the way they are supposed to. Let's keep going.

A bunch of us have been saying the bolded part for years. The problem is once you get there, the rest of your comment isn't feasible. It's fucking over. When we can't even agree on a comment set of objectively provable and established facts, there is no coming back. When the non-thoughtful side has half the country disputing whether or not treason is treason, there's no coming back. When that side has half the country supporting Russia in a war against NATO, there's not coming back. 

[Chopper 17235]

[RomaVicta 29908]

1 hour ago, washparkhorn said:

A reminder of what normal transitions looked like before Trump:

W was a disastrous president but he set the standard for power transition. Obama copied his model even though Trump's guys weren't even vaguely interested in the prepared briefing books and appointments. I hadn't seen this picture before. It's genuinely heart warming. Bravo Bushes.

[tx 3 putt 76958]

The circle around him is closing up. Who’s going to be the first to take the only generous plea deal ?

Edited August 15, 2022 by tx 3 putt

[Ojo Rojo 1965]

14 minutes ago, 'stache said:

A bunch of us have been saying the bolded part for years. The problem is once you get there, the rest of your comment isn't feasible. It's fucking over. When we can't even agree on a comment set of objectively provable and established facts, there is no coming back. When the non-thoughtful side has half the country disputing whether or not treason is treason, there's no coming back. When that side has half the country supporting Russia in a war against NATO, there's not coming back. 

I think this is hyperbole.  Half the country isn't made of Trumpist nuts with zero critical thinking skills. The Trumpists aren't all supporting Russia in a war against NATO.  For one thing, there is no war between Russia and NATO. Let's keep it real.

[WhatTheBuck 28782]

3 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

Sacré bleu!

France would burn.

It already is. Bad times for the French wine industry. 

[Blotto 23515]

Adam Bies: 'I will not spend one second of my life in their custody.'"

Narrator: yeah......about that

[tx 3 putt 76958]

2 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Adam Bies: 'I will not spend one second of my life in their custody.'"

Narrator: yeah......about that

[RomaVicta 29908]

It looks like the DOJ has the metaphorical electrodes wired to the nipples of some Trump toady who is in deep shit. The wall of omerta seems to be breaking as far as Trump goes. I still don't see GOPs ratting out other ratfink GOPs.

I imagine Trump kept his presidential passport because he wants to maintain the toxic charade that he's still president. I think his whole posture now could be based in the lunacy that raiding MAL is the same as raiding the White House because Trump is the one true holder of the presidency.

He just may be Hitler in the bunker imagining army divisions and possible defenses that exist only in his addled roiling brain.

This feels like serious shit going down. That GOP senators are manning the wall does suggest that they feel threatened as well, but Mitch and the boys are pretty good at slithering away.

[tx 3 putt 76958]

What’s to stop him from heading to a private strip and stepping on a private jet headed to Moscow ?

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

22 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Quote

In one post, according to the affidavit, he said, "HEY FEDS. We the people cannot WAIT to water the trees of liberty with your blood. I’ll be waiting for you to kick down my door.”

 r/iamverybadass

He invited them to kick down his door.  Mission accomplished.