A story about a pathetic man's downfall [34 Felony Convictions]

[Storm the Field 5297]

When you've lost Andy McCarthy....

Story is paywalled, but here's the upshot:

 

Quote

 

Former president Trump is likely to be charged with obstruction of justice and causing false statements to be made to investigators.

That is the upshot of a court submission filed by the Justice Department on Tuesday night, in response to the Trump camp’s belated motion for the appointment of a special master to review materials seized three weeks ago from the former president’s Mar-a-Lago estate.

 

 

[Beau Vine 54319]

4 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Y’all are crazy if you think Fox News is going to abandon their golden cow.

They will abandon the golden cow when it stops shitting gold for them.  

[YGIFS 19452]

that shit is printed on that kinda paper (not sure the term) that cannot be photocopied and can blur itself to a photographic lens and/or flash.  

However, yeah I'm starting to tilt towards that he's just smart enough to understand that there's really nobody to throw under the bus when you wrongfully take SCI docs.  Unlike in business or even some parts of his Presidency, you can't blame it on somebody who literally in the physical world we find ourselves, could ever be in possession of those papers, ever.

[Beau Vine 54319]

4 hours ago, Red Five said:

If you start thinking of him as a 10 year-old in a 76 year old body, a lot of things start making sense. 

 

[Red Five 40877]

Showing them off to feed his ego, blackmailing, and offering to avoid jail are all too dangerous because you're letting someone else know you are yourself engaged in a very grave crime. You have to show the things to somebody in all of those cases. 
Selling them to foreign agent or turning them over to Putin because Trump was being blackmailed is a closed transaction. 
Writing this makes me think of something else. There was originally talk of nuclear secrets. We don't have any word that such documents were found. Trump and his boys are now making a thing of that. 
But...
I wonder if Trump doesn't have them because they've already been sold and handed over. Once a transaction is complete, holding onto a copy only serves to possibly incriminate you. Trump doesn't hold onto to things that can hurt him. If there are nuclear documents missing that may have been taken by Trump, I think the conclusion is obvious.
 
 

He also keeps talking about it. Which is sort of a tell.

[YGIFS 19452]

Just now, Red Five said:

He also keeps talking about it. Which is sort of a tell.

Only time you worry about our national security is when Trump quits bitchin'

[aggie08 21508]

10 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Really. The only things he understands are greed and his own ego. And he’s spent an entire lifetime committing crimes and getting away with them. And I doubt he knows how to read a coloring book, never mind State secrets. He took the papers with intent to sell them. I’m just not certain if it’s been proven that he did in fact sell them.

Selling state secrets is a little different that racially discriminating against tenants.

If the FBI had credible intel that he was selling them, they wouldn't have waited 18 months while NARA kept passive aggressively asked for them back.

Obviously, he didn't take the documents to read them or for sentimentality. And holding onto them to brag to your sycophants or for potential blackmail are serious damn crimes in their own right that should (but probably won't) come with some jail time. I just lean heavier towards the stupid than evil scale with all things Trump.

Don't get my wrong: he's fucked. But it's not going to be as satisfying as we all hope.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by aggie08

[TwiceHorn 31512]

5 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Get serious.  You wouldn't last two hours, let alone two days.

Plus, non-refundable REEETAINERS are prima facie unethical.  But you could probably justify it for Trump.

[TwiceHorn 31512]

2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Selling state secrets is a little different that racially discriminating against tenants.

If the FBI had credible intel that he was selling them, they wouldn't have waited 18 months while NARA kept passive aggressively asking for them back.

Obviously, he didn't take the documents to read them or for sentimentality. And holding onto them to brag to your sycophants or for potential blackmail are serious damn crimes in their own right that should (but probably won't) come with some jail time.

Don't get my wrong: he's fucked. But it's not going to be as satisfying as we all hope.

 

 

I tend to agree re: outright selling them.

But granting access to someone like MBS, that he thinks he knows, for some favor or quid pro quo, or even just "admiration," is not beyond him.

[Pig Bellmont 8719]

20 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

That's an example of the damned hyperbole that the anti-Trump press and pundits always seem to go for, without any basis in fact, that winds up undermining legitimate investigations and feeds talking points to the pro-Trump morons.

We are probably never going to know exactly what the documents covered.

There very well could be nuclear secrets in those documents. 

[Satchel 6938]

6 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

There very well could be nuclear secrets in those documents. 

That will never come to light and understandably so, just like the complete damage assessment findings will never be made public.

[TwiceHorn 31512]

6 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

There very well could be nuclear secrets in those documents. 

Definitely.  But for now it's just breathless speculation.

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

 

not sure where to post this, so why not here:

 

 

[Beantown Express 2.0 6559]

Maybe I haven't followed this closely enough but has anyone given any reason or defended why he had documents with human intelligence assets (people spying for the US in other countries) in his possession?  He took that information for a reason, and I can't believe it was an accident that happened to be in the documents in Maro Lago.  If this part was just rumor then disregard this post but I thought that info was part of what he had taken. 

[Pig Bellmont 8719]

So she never searched or she came across hundreds of documents she did not have the clearance to review 

[Horndog 2228]

Just glanced through the DOJ Brief, and there were a couple of interesting things I did not know:

• When the 15 boxes were returned earlier in the year, NARA found classified documents that had been "unfoldered" (i.e. taken out of their folders containing the classified markings) and were intermingled with other records.  It is an accepted rule of nature that documents are inanimate and do not remove themselves from folders  and envelopes.
• Some of the papers had been "torn up." 
• The DOJ had  "multiple sources" of information that classified records remained at MAL after the attorney's certification to the contrary. 

Per Chuck Rosenberg (former federal prosecutor) on MSNBC last night, not only are classified documents maintained in the brightly-colored large-font-labeled folders, but the documents themselves have individual classification markings for each paragraph.  Once they are removed from the marked folders, anyone looking at the documents has immediate knowledge of their classification status.  

[Underdog 28754]

2 hours ago, Mo Horn said:

You're crazy. If during one of his rallies he said that Melanie wasn't putting out and he needed some, there would be women stripped down with their legs spread before he could finish the sentence. 

 

[Satchel 6938]

5 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Maybe I haven't followed this closely enough but has anyone given any reason or defended why he had documents with human intelligence assets (people spying for the US in other countries) in his possession?  He took that information for a reason, and I can't believe it was an accident that happened to be in the documents in Maro Lago.  If this part was just rumor then disregard this post but I thought that info was part of what he had taken. 

There is reporting that says documents containing the names of spies were intermingled with his personal stuff. Last night’s DOJ filing also said secrets were stored in “containers.” Those documents were in a damn box.

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

2 hours ago, Mo Horn said:

You're crazy. If during one of his rallies he said that Melanie wasn't putting out and he needed some, there would be women stripped down with their legs spread before he could finish the sentence. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Dog 44073]

10 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

So she never searched or she came across hundreds of documents she did not have the clearance to review 

from that same thread:

 

[Satchel 6938]

Well, looks like right wing darling, Judge Napolitano, is about to be the target of death threats:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/aug/31/why-donald-trump-will-soon-be-indicted/

"It gives me no joy to write this piece.

Even a cursory review of the redacted version of the affidavit submitted in support of the government's application for a search warrant at the home of former President Donald Trump reveals that he will soon be indicted by a federal grand jury for three crimes: Removing and concealing national defense information (NDI), giving NDI to those not legally entitled to possess it, and obstruction of justice by failing to return NDI to those who are legally entitled to retrieve it.

When he learned from a phone call that 30 FBI agents were at the front door of his Florida residence with a search warrant and he decided to reveal this publicly, Mr. Trump assumed that the agents were looking for classified top-secret materials that they'd allege he criminally possessed. His assumptions were apparently based on his gut instinct and not on a sophisticated analysis of the law. Hence, his public boast that he declassified all the formerly classified documents he took with him.

Unbeknownst to him, the feds had anticipated such a defense and are not preparing to indict him for possessing classified materials, even though he did possess hundreds of voluntarily surrendered materials marked "top secret." It is irrelevant if the documents were declassified, as the feds will charge crimes that do not require proof of classification. They told the federal judge who signed the search warrant that Mr. Trump still had NDI in his home. It appears they were correct.

Under the law, it doesn't matter if the documents on which NDI is contained are classified or not, as it is simply and always criminal to have NDI in a non-federal facility, to have those without security clearances move it from one place to another, and to keep it from the feds when they are seeking it. Stated differently, the absence of classification for whatever reason is not a defense to the charges that are likely to be filed against Mr. Trump.

Yet, misreading and underestimating the feds, Mr. Trump actually did them a favor. One of the elements that they must prove for any of the three crimes is that Mr. Trump knew that he had the documents. The favor he did was admit to that when he boasted that they were no longer classified. He committed a mortal sin in the criminal defense world by denying something for which he had not been accused.

The second element that the feds must prove is that the documents actually do contain national defense information. And the third element they must prove is that Mr. Trump put these documents into the hands of those not authorized to hold them and stored them in a non-federally secured place. Intelligence community experts have already examined the documents taken from Mr. Trump's home and are prepared to tell a jury that they contain the names of foreign agents secretly working for the U.S. This is the crown jewel of government secrets. Moreover, Mr. Trump's Florida home is not a secure federal facility designated for the deposit of NDI.

The newest aspect of the case against Mr. Trump that we learned from the redacted affidavit is the obstruction allegation. This is not the obstruction that Robert Mueller claimed he found Mr. Trump committed during the Russia investigation. This is a newer obstruction statute, signed by President George W. Bush in 2002, that places far fewer burdens on the feds to prove. The older statute is the one Mr. Mueller alleged. It characterizes any material interference with a judicial function as criminal. Thus, one who lies to a grand jury or prevents a witness from testifying commits this variant of obstruction.

But the Bush-era statute, the one the feds contemplate charging Mr. Trump with having violated, makes it a crime of obstruction by failing to return government property or by sending the FBI on a wild goose chase looking for something that belongs to the government and that you know that you have. This statute does not require the preexistence of a judicial proceeding. It only requires that the defendant has the government's property, knows that he has it and baselessly resists efforts by the government to get it back.

Where does all this leave Mr. Trump? The short answer is: In hot water. The longer answer is: He is confronting yet again the federal law enforcement and intelligence communities for which he has rightly expressed such public disdain. He had valid points of expression during the Russia investigation. He has little ground upon which to stand today.

I have often argued that many of these statutes that the feds have enacted to protect themselves are morally unjust and not grounded in the Constitution. One of my intellectual heroes, the great Murray Rothbard, taught that the government protects itself far more aggressively than it protects our natural rights.

In a monumental irony, both Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks journalist who exposed American war crimes during the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, and Edward Snowden, the former National Security Agency employee who exposed criminal mass government surveillance upon the American public, stand charged with the very same crimes that are likely to be brought against Mr. Trump. On both Mr. Assange and Mr. Snowden, Mr. Trump argued that they should be executed. Fortunately for all three, these statutes do not provide for capital punishment.

Mr. Rothbard warned that the feds aggressively protect themselves. Yet, both Mr. Assange and Mr. Snowden are heroic defenders of liberty with valid moral and legal defenses. Mr. Assange is protected by the Pentagon Papers case, which insulates the media from criminal or civil liability for revealing stolen matters of interest to the public, so long as the revealer is not the thief. Mr. Snowden is protected by the Constitution, which expressly prohibits the warrantless surveillance he revealed, which was the most massive peacetime abuse of government power.

What will Mr. Trump say in his defense to taking national defense information? 

I cannot think of a legally viable one."

[Tuco 5076]

When considering what Trump would or wouldn't do, keep the following in mind:

1. The intelligence agencies were the enemy.  They were out to get him from the start. 

2. Trump is insane and stupid.

It would take about ten minutes for Putin or MBS to convince him that intel contacts in the Russian or Saudi government were a threat to Trump and that he needed to provide their names to avoid being unfairly persecuted by the Deep State. 

[Celery Man 20981]

6 hours ago, The Dog said:

Hey Donnie:

 

[TXSG8R 3362]

57 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

That's an example of the damned hyperbole that the anti-Trump press and pundits always seem to go for, without any basis in fact, that winds up undermining legitimate investigations and feeds talking points to the pro-Trump morons.

We are probably never going to know exactly what the documents covered.

Correct, “We can neither confirm nor deny” is the only allowable response to the public for any of this stuff. 

[Goredho 17413]

46 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

There very well could be nuclear secrets in those documents. 

I'm going with the nuclear "bombshell" being disinfo surfaced by Trump or someone on his side to try to bait his adversaries into making it all a media-driven conversation about nuclear secrets, Rosenbergs, treason and the possibility of execution.  And then when it turned out to have nothing to do with nuclear secrets, he would look politically persecuted in the harshest degree.  "It was all a nothingburger, just like the russia hoax, the perfect phone call, all of it to persecute your favorite president, to even have me executed -- murdered -- when all I am guilty of is making America great again.  They will stop at nothing in their attempt destroy me, and they will stop at nothing in their attempt to destroy you.  So what are you going to do about it?"

Except no one really took the bait.  The only person trying to keep "nuclear" injected into the conversation is Trump, and there is no way he would be doing that if he had nuclear secrets at Mar-A-Lago.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Goredho

[YGIFS 19452]

4 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Correct, “We can neither confirm nor deny” is the only allowable response to the public for any of this stuff. 

Oh, and you know that'll sit real fucking well with MAGA-nation.  

"What are they hiding?!?  This is all bullshit!  They can't even tell us what he stole so it was probably nothing but library plans!"  

-uh, it's sensitive national security intel.  aren't you a patriot?-

"Fuck you queer!"  

[Hermanator 7124]

10 minutes ago, Goredho said:

I'm going with the nuclear "bombshell" being disinfo surfaced by Trump or someone on his side to try to bait his adversaries into making it all a media-driven conversation about nuclear secrets, Rosenbergs, treason and the possibility of execution.  And then when it turned out to have nothing to do with nuclear secrets, he would look politically persecuted in the harshest degree.  "It was all a nothingburger, just like the russia hoax, the perfect phone call, all of it to persecute your favorite president, to even have me executed -- murdered -- when all I am guilty of is making America great again.  They will stop at nothing in their attempt destroy me, and they will stop at nothing in their attempt to destroy you.  So what are you going to do about it?"

Except no one really took the bait.  The only person trying to keep "nuclear" injected into the conversation is Trump, and there is no way he would be doing that if he had nuclear secrets at Mar-A-Lago.

Selling/providing espionage agents info is worse than documents on nuclear material. That's as old school treasonous as it gets. Benedict Arnold shit. 

[Sawbonz 27580]

41 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Maybe I haven't followed this closely enough but has anyone given any reason or defended why he had documents with human intelligence assets (people spying for the US in other countries) in his possession?  He took that information for a reason, and I can't believe it was an accident that happened to be in the documents in Maro Lago.  If this part was just rumor then disregard this post but I thought that info was part of what he had taken. 

 Most likely he just liked those documents and wanted to keep them

 

 

[Mdhorn 5974]

1 hour ago, TexasEd said:

But did they?  The fact they got a search warrant and went back to get the rest is kinda proof they did not accept it as indication of compliance with the subpoena. 

My guess is he was monitored closely at that point and they came to his house the moment he committed a major crime--like espionage.  

[Beantown Express 2.0 6559]

7 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

 Most likely he just liked those documents and wanted to keep them

 

 

I don't buy it.  I mean, yeah, keep the documents that show we captured aliens at Roswell, faked the moon landing or who really killed Kennedy but taking the names of human assets just for the fuck of it doesn't make sense.  That type of info was taken for a reason.  Knowing what Trump really is all about, I would guess the reason was to make money in some way but that is just a guess.

[The Dog 44073]

1 minute ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I don't buy it.  I mean, yeah, keep the documents that show we captured aliens at Roswell, faked the moon landing or who really killed Kennedy but taking the names of human assets just for the fuck of it doesn't make sense.  That type of info was taken for a reason.  Knowing what Trump really is all about, I would guess the reason was to make money in some way but that is just a guess.

I think I said upthread but Cohen said in an interview that he thinks Trump kept this in order to blackmail anyone who tried to prosecute him for his many legal issues. 

[Brisketexan 105180]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Get serious.  You wouldn't last two hours, let alone two days.

Change that to seconds and minutes, and who are you, my wife?

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Plus, non-refundable REEETAINERS are prima facie unethical.  But you could probably justify it for Trump.

Oh, the first few thousand are a reflection of my time at the prevailing market rates.  The remaining $19,995,000 is for "the sale and complete destruction of my personal and professional reputation for the rest of my days."  100% justified in this circumstance.

[Eskimohorn 5642]

I tend to agree re: outright selling them.
But granting access to someone like MBS, that he thinks he knows, for some favor or quid pro quo, or even just "admiration," is not beyond him.

That fits in with his MO and similar to how his mentor Roy Cohn handled things. You trade in favors and access and Uncle Sam wont be the wiser. And you let other people break laws. And you speak in non-absolutes and use buffers.

[YGIFS 19452]

Guy now lives in South Florida where what happens a lot this time of year?  
Guy spent four years monitoring natural disasters even though he ignored the uptick in them.  
Guy thinks nuclear warheads can breakup hurricanes.  
Guy is scared shitless a hurricane could damage his resort or his hair.  
Guy had access to nuclear warhead documents. 
 

I gotta draw you guys a sharpie picture here.  He stole the Nuke docs to protect us from hurricanes. 
 

shit now that I type that, I think that may end up being a defense strategy they viably consider.  Fucking simulation. 

[Pescado_Rojo 19427]

16 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I don't buy it.  I mean, yeah, keep the documents that show we captured aliens at Roswell, faked the moon landing or who really killed Kennedy but taking the names of human assets just for the fuck of it doesn't make sense.  That type of info was taken for a reason.  Knowing what Trump really is all about, I would guess the reason was to make money in some way but that is just a guess.

Mentioned it on the other thread, but Trump is up to his eyeballs in debt to shady Russians. He may not have "Sold" anything, but he could have had a few guests over, left his desk drawer open, and left the room to take a piss for a few minutes.

[Native Horn 3505]

9 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Mentioned it on the other thread, but Trump is up to his eyeballs in debt to shady Russians. He may not have "Sold" anything, but he could have had a few guests over, left his desk drawer open, and left the room to take a piss for a few minutes.

Hell, it probably takes at least twenty minutes of fumbling through his FUPA to find his mushroom.  

[Longhorn_Fan68 33881]

41 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

 Most likely he just liked those documents and wanted to keep them

 

 

are you seriously quoting Ben Shapiro as if he's a source of truth? or is my sarcasm meter broken?

[Satchel 6938]

18 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Mentioned it on the other thread, but Trump is up to his eyeballs in debt to shady Russians. He may not have "Sold" anything, but he could have had a few guests over, left his desk drawer open, and left the room to take a piss for a few minutes.

My hope is there is some kind of evidence of this being the case.

[Pato del Muerto 52535]

6 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

are you seriously quoting Ben Shapiro as if he's a source of truth? or is my sarcasm meter broken?

Meter

[The Dog 44073]

 

[Sawbonz 27580]

5 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

are you seriously quoting Ben Shapiro as if he's a source of truth? or is my sarcasm meter broken?

[The Dog 44073]

 

[Satchel 6938]

1 hour ago, Tuco said:

When considering what Trump would or wouldn't do, keep the following in mind:

1. The intelligence agencies were the enemy.  They were out to get him from the start. 

2. Trump is insane and stupid.

It would take about ten minutes for Putin or MBS to convince him that intel contacts in the Russian or Saudi government were a threat to Trump and that he needed to provide their names to avoid being unfairly persecuted by the Deep State. 

We don’t talk enough about #2 being the cause of our ongoing national dilemma.

[Biff Tannen 45695]

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

 Most likely he just liked those documents and wanted to keep them

 

 

This is yet again the frat boy that got caught excuse.

[DDD Dad 14346]

2 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

 

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by DDD Dad

[Sawbonz 27580]

Live look at them working 

[Biff Tannen 45695]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

Live look at them working 

They will 100% miss this deadline.

[The Dog 44073]

 

[Biff Tannen 45695]

I've heard the word "documents" so much in the past two weeks that it's become one of those words that just sounds weird to me and is fucking annoying.

[Tuco 5076]

14 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

They will 100% miss this deadline.

I was looking forward to a Trump dictated response about the FBI taking pictures of messy files.