A story about a pathetic man's downfall [34 Felony Convictions]

[Dahobbs 17608]

14 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Fortunate for trump that he's got cannon in his pocket to do exactly that and throw up every procedural delay that a district judge can to further deny justice from the American people. Doesn't make a shit if dearie won't tolerate it, cannon will overrule him and allow it

It'd be one thing if trump were raising genuine issues in his appeals and filings. But he's not. It's completely specious and farcical. And yet you think that it's unreasonable and impatient to be frustrated and concerned by these completely fabricated delays? 

As it stands, district judge cannon can do whatever the fuck she wants until removed, and it's up to the court system to bat a thousand to beat her and trump's delaying effort. Because otherwise any possible loose thread will be exploited in bad faith (just like we're seeing now) to further delay things and run the clock. It doesn't matter if trump has no evidence to back his claims, cannon (and you in this thread lol) will treat them as legally salient and incredibly important filings, despite being filled with zero actual content that's supported by more than rhetoric. 

I know that this is but one case and one judge, but it just takes one of these instances to completely break the way the law works. And we're seeing it in action right now. 

While I get the frustration, there is essentially no delay anymore. The 11th Circuit took that option away from Trump. This is just a sideshow. He may have intended to delay the investigation, but instead he has caught himself if a monumental waste of his time and money that just creates opportunities for him to incriminate himself. 

[Captainant 27680]

4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

While I get the frustration, there is essentially no delay anymore. The 11th Circuit took that option away from Trump. This is just a sideshow. He may have intended to delay the investigation, but instead he has caught himself if a monumental waste of his time and money that just creates opportunities for him to incriminate himself. 

Great, the circuit court got it right this time! Let's hope they continue to correctly handle all the bullshit that trump's menagerie of judges is inputting into the justice system. 

I don't think our judicial system is going to bat a thousand. Shit is Calvinball depending on the court and panel of judges you get. 

[TwiceHorn 31493]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

While I get the frustration, there is essentially no delay anymore. The 11th Circuit took that option away from Trump. This is just a sideshow. He may have intended to delay the investigation, but instead he has caught himself if a monumental waste of his time and money that just creates opportunities for him to incriminate himself. 

Yes, this is what I mean.

Dearie made an order that made the "self-incrimination" thing perhaps a little more likely. Or, more accurately, made Trump's silence on the declassification and planted evidence issues a little more glaring. Cannon took it away.  But neither the order nor the "takeaway" change the fundamental requirement of proof or the burden of proof.

I do still harbor some anxiety about how executive privilege gets handled or bungled.  It seems like Dearie knows what he's about there and now that he knows Cannon is "the enemy," I think can write his findings and recommendations in such a way as to really put her on the spot to reverse them.

[Captainant 27680]

It's funny seeing the lawyers tell me I'm overreacting to all these specious legal filings because the courts will OBVIOUSLY call bullshit on them and treat them appropriately. It's like y'all weren't paying attention during the decades long assault on Roe made up by a bunch of specious legal filings and unconstitutional law, that was all bullshit up until the supreme court decided that they were no longer bound by precedent while taking aim at the civil progess of the Warren court. 

We've seen this pattern before between the American right and the judicial system. It's happening again now. And it'll succeed because y'all think it's too preposterous to succeed. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Captainant

[Dahobbs 17608]

37 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Well in most cases, a judge would require a petitioner to back their claims with evidence. Cannon has decided this step is optional for trump, and future courts either must treat that assertion equally or go through a long process to overturn that "fact". Since district judges are supposed to be fact finders and all that and our system is set up with that inherent trust which is being exploited by trump and cannon to delay and obstruct this criminal investigation 

Look, I think Cannon bungled her jurisdictional analysis for this case. And in general her legal reasoning has been poor and overly deferential to Trump despite no evidence provided by him. But, she was clear from the beginning that she didn't have the power to make substantive rulings regarding the criminal investigation or ultimately any prosecution. She recognized her role was limited to evaluating whether property should be returned to Trump. She modified her order immediately after the 11th Circuit granted a stay on the portion of it affecting classified marked documents. These are all things that she didn't have to do if she was truly going to do anything and everything to protect Trump. Do I think she has some bias towards Trump? Yeah, I do. But I also think she is genuinely overwhelmed by the enormity of what is before her and acting extremely cautiously in her rulings as a result. But she is clearly not so beholden to Trump that she would do anything to protect him. Or maybe she is just sucks at it. 

[Captainant 27680]

8 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

But she is clearly not so beholden to Trump that she would do anything to protect him. Or maybe she is just sucks at it. 

Aw shucks, what reason would a lifetime appointed udge with little to no prior experience be beholden to trump in any way? You're right, it's more likely that she just sucks at it. 

Which means that trump is directly abusing the justice system to fill courts with dogshit judges while president, and then as a citizen shop all of his cases to their courts to exploit their shittiness as another delaying tactic

[Poe It Up 126]

TwiceHorn, psychiatrist at law. 

[Dahobbs 17608]

7 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

TwiceHorn, psychiatrist at law. 

I don't think he can prescribe drugs. At least he wouldn't do so for me, the bastard. 

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

11 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Aren’t you an IP lawyer?  Why don’t you go back to your cubicle and we’ll call you when we find someone selling counterfeit surly hats.  

I’m not bitching this time about delays, I’m raising fucking hell over an obviously corrupt judge bending over backwards to undermine justice.  The same fucking judge you are around the way defending after every god damn ruling.

 

pay attention people, this is how you surl.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Tell us how this is breaking how the law works.

I'm not saying you can't be irritated or distressed by the delay or the fact that Trump isn't cut off at the knees every time he makes a filing.  

But the incessant wailing and gnashing of teeth about the entire system being corrupt and fucked and he's going to get away with everything, wah wah wah gets tiresome and really is very Greenspoint.

 

I think what has gotten people so riled up is that the courts' abysmal failure to deal with dOTarD is just a vary obvious data point that the courts do not treat the rich and powerful the same as everybody else.

To mix metaphors, doTArD is the data point that is breaking the camel's back.

 

I will bet anyone all my rep that despite the obvious crimes going back decades, DoTard will never, ever, spend a single day in prison, or even jail. At most he will pay some fines that will actually be paid by someone else.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by High Plains Drifter
nevermind, I didn't change anything

[TwiceHorn 31493]

11 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

pay attention people, this is how you surl.

 

 

 

 

I think what has gotten people so riled up is that the courts' abysmal failure to deal with dOTarD is just a vary obvious data point that the courts do not treat the rich and powerful the same as everybody else.

To mix metaphors, doTArD is the data point that is breaking the camel's back.

 

I will bet anyone all my rep that despite the obvious crimes going back decades, DoTard will never, ever, spend a single day in prison, or even jail. At most he will pay some fines that will actually be paid by someone else.

 

 

 

 

And, I am just trying to provide some of the opposite perspective that nothing is fucked.

 

Also, people with good lawyers do well in our system.  People without good lawyers, not so much.  One of the first signs of having a good lawyer is having the means to pay for one.  So, the rich get good lawyers.

But, poor people, or at least not rich people get good lawyers too pretty often.  We have a lot of injury attorneys on this board that don't represent rich people, and from what I can see are damned good lawyers that get good results for their clients even when facing corporate Goliaths.

Public defenders by and large are very good lawyers and do well for their clients despite being stretched thin, and probably do better work than a whole lot of paid lawyers.

And while Trump as a former pres has some "privileges' literally, that only belong to that small class of people, he is not attracting top legal talent and even top legal talent can't do anything with lies and nothing.

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

 

yeah, i get that. I'm not attacking you personally; I actually think you are one of the better posters on this board.

 

edit to add: Care to take my bet?

Edited September 30, 2022 by High Plains Drifter

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Quote

 

Let’s just indict Trump already, shall we?
SFGATE columnist Drew Magary argues that 'It is time, both procedurally and metaphorically, to f—k Donald Trump'

In case you missed it, and you’re forgiven if you did, former President Donald Trump isn’t happy with the special master he fought so hard for. “Special master” is a fabulous duet of words that should be reserved exclusively for samurai training, BDSM orgies and chess rankings. Alas, “special master” in today’s context gets lumped in with terms such as “Senate parliamentarian” and “Hatch Act” that I have been reluctantly forced to acquaint myself with over the past six years, all because Trump is an asshole who turned America into the No. 1 asshole country in the universe. 

And so we come to said special master, Judge Raymond (British accent) Dearie, whose appointment has not stopped the Department of Justice from poring over some of the most sensitive documents they seized earlier this fall from Mar-a-Lago: documents that Trump definitely accidentally absconded from the White House with after his term as president came to an end.

Dearie has not been kind to Trump’s lawyers and even tried to force Trump to appear in court under oath. These plans were scuttled by a federal judge Thursday, but the special master’s moves are just one of many signs that the walls are closing in around our beloved Don-Don. The Department of Justice is still actively engaged in a criminal investigation of Trump. One of Trump’s most vocal defenders in the past is currently arguing that the former president’s attempts to ward off the probe may in fact be aiding it. I love it, unironically, when Trump hires people who he assumes will protect him and then they’re like, “Actually, f—k this guy.” And there are so many people like this out there! Fantastic.

Meanwhile, the House Jan. 6 committee is still in the process of conducting hearings on Trump’s role in the failed insurrection attempt on the U.S. Capitol, hearings that have already resulted in onetime Trump ally Cassidy Hutchinson testifying that Trump actively ordered security not to prevent armed rioters from reaching the Capitol. Meanwhile meanwhile, New York’s attorney general just filed a massive civil suit against Trump and his awful family for committing flagrant acts of real estate fraud. Meanwhile meanwhile meanwhile, Georgia District Attorney Fani Willis is also jumping onto the hogpile, convening a grand jury that may be looking to charge Trump, or at least associates like Rudy Giuliani, with gross election malfeasance in 2020. Any one of these investigations could result in Trump being supremely f—ked, but I’d like to use this space now to demand that the “could” part of this no longer apply. 

It is time, both procedurally and metaphorically, to f—k Donald Trump. After all, if the guy who defended Trump against presumed white knight Robert Mueller thinks that Trump is in a highly f—kable position, let’s go ahead and take advantage of that.

It’s well past time, really. If you disdain Trump as much as I do, you’ve been on a six-year-long catharsis hunt in which every victory — even the 2020 election! — has felt hollow. I thought Trump was finished when he fired James Comey. I thought he was finished when Mueller was drafted to investigate him. I thought he was finished when he got COVID-19. You get the idea. It’s been an agonizing stretch in which all of us have had to live through Donald Trump being president, Donald Trump violently refusing to stop being president and then Donald Trump threatening to become president again. All Americans deserve a break from his bulls—t. We voted Joe Biden into office for this very reason. 

And yet, here Trump remains. Still here. Still not officially f—ked. For six years, I’ve been waiting for a cavalry that always arrives unarmed. I’ve been counting on Democrats to put Trump’s head on the chopping block when that party’s leaders all share a bizarre reticence to prosecute him because they believe that indicting Trump is an indictment of the American Idyll or something. It’s possible that Trumpism is a fad and will die out on its own. Perhaps as soon as November, when a red wave that the dreaded polls supposedly once foretold fails to materialize. But given the damage that Trump and his cohorts have wrought, it feels wrong, IS wrong, to hope nature takes its course with this movement. I’ve done the hope thing. I did it in 2008. It only got me here, so you’ll excuse me if hope and I aren’t on the best of terms right now. 

What I require, and what is there for the taking at last, is action. All of this due diligence has to be for something, and not just for due diligence’s sake. If Democrats want me to have faith in their precious institutions, then what I need is for those institutions to do what the label on the “Institutions” box promises and indict this man. I’m as sick as you are of the “Today would be a good day to charge Donald Trump with high treason” brand tweets that have polluted the internet since his inauguration, but the receipts are flooding in and the excuses have all sunk to the bottom of the sea in a beautiful, idiot boat. Truly, today WOULD be a good day for the hammer to drop.  Don’t wait until after the election, when Republicans will have f—ked with an election that they have already pledged to f—k with. Don’t gimme some bulls—t about how there’ll be another civil war if we dare to prosecute Trump because I already watched the insurrectionists try to start that war and fail miserably. Most of those people thought they were going to a furry convention or something. And don’t put on your law degree and tell me about dangerous precedents and how fluid the definition of “crimedoing” is. I’ve been watching this s—tshow for six years now. I know what I’m looking at. I’m looking at robbery, treason, fraud and awful nutrition habits. Everyone knows what went down, what is going down and what Republicans WANT to go down. And I think I’ve had enough of the down parts. Joe Biden may be an underwhelming replacement, but even he had the stones earlier this month to call all this out for what it is:

“Too much of what’s happening in our country today is not normal. Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans represent extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic.”

That’s accurate as it comes to rhetoric, but it also serves as an implied order … to the DOJ, to the state of New York, to Willis and to Congress: It’s time. Let’s get on with it.

 

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/lets-indict-Donald-Trump-already-17476360.php

[TwiceHorn 31493]

13 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

yeah, i get that. I'm not attacking you personally; I actually think you are one of the better posters on this board.

 

edit to add: Care to take my bet?

I'm not a big better.

I can't say I know what will happen.  I don't think his acquittal or negligible punishment is as inevitable as predicted.  I suppose I wouldn't be suprised terribly by that outcome, or even a complete lack of indictment.  But I'm hoping it doesn't go that way.

Also, one great fun thing is that this search happened, there was some dangerous-sounding grumbling from the usual suspects and not much more.

If this, and a subsequent indictment on this, is something of a test case for "will America burn if Biden's DOJ puts the screws to Trump," then I think it's brilliant.

 

[Beau Vine 54246]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

Look, I think Cannon bungled her jurisdictional analysis for this case. And in general her legal reasoning has been poor and overly deferential to Trump despite no evidence provided by him. But, she was clear from the beginning that she didn't have the power to make substantive rulings regarding the criminal investigation or ultimately any prosecution.

You don't find ruling that the criminal investigation must be paused to be substantive?

[chainsaw 9870]

Trump's support is hollow. If it wasn't, he wouldn't be pulling in $40 (less than a night's worth of tips for most waitresses) in funds. Some people would throw a tantrum the way it happened on the night of the morning of the warrant being searched and I'm sure there will be chatter on the usual extremist websites, but nobody got hurt after the warrant and I don't think anyone will get hurt if Trump gets arrested. He's been trying for two years since Jan 6 to circle the wagons and there's not exactly a groundswell of support for him. What they support is fascism.

[GenXer 2882]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Public defenders by and large are very good lawyers and do well for their clients despite being stretched thin, and probably do better work than a whole lot of paid lawyers.

 

Having served on a jury for a criminal case of two counts of aggravated assault, this statement scares the shit out of me. Specifically, that public defenders probably do better work than paid attorneys.

After the trial that I was a juror, the court appointed defense attorney admitted to me in front of the judge, prosecuting attorney and the jury that he didn’t review all the evidence.

That was the day I vowed never to use a court appointed defense attorney. I’ve never been arrested so I haven’t put that to test yet.

[tx 3 putt 76987]

 

[The Dog 44060]

 

[Biff Tannen 45691]

27 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

Explain to me how this "norm" is being followed when that fat tub of criminal shit is NOT RUNNING FOR OFFICE IN 2022?

[TwiceHorn 31493]

39 minutes ago, GenXer said:

Having served on a jury for a criminal case of two counts of aggravated assault, this statement scares the shit out of me. Specifically, that public defenders probably do better work than paid attorneys.

After the trial that I was a juror, the court appointed defense attorney admitted to me in front of the judge, prosecuting attorney and the jury that he didn’t review all the evidence.

That was the day I vowed never to use a court appointed defense attorney. I’ve never been arrested so I haven’t put that to test yet.

Court appointed does not equal public defender.

Court appointed attorneys take a lot of paid cases, too.  They may just suck.

[CTC2 2797]

12 hours ago, Mole said:

The thing that’s so vexing to non-lawyers isn’t the delay, it’s the absurdity of treating such preposterous claims as serious issues to discuss. Hearing things about “uncharted legal waters,” or “open legal question” when it comes to things that are on their face moronic is akin to having an existential crisis. The vanity of pretending that this fatuousness requires some somber, legal analysis and explanation is just too much for the non-legal mind to fathom.

Whatever the final result, it feels like it’s already baked in and we’re just watching it play out. All of the legal reasoning is just trying to come up with some pretext to justify however this all plays out. I get that it’s necessary, but it’s necessary like the coordinator search will be in a few months. It’s meaningless; all is vanity.

I have litigated for 30 years all over the country and I know for a certainty that most defendants in any matter in a federal court cannot get away with the bs Trump and his lawyers get away with. Specious arguments, delay for the sake of delay, refusing to produce discovery etc. 

Cannon is in the tank for Trump and she does not care who knows it  

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by CTC2

[chainsaw 9870]

It's a stupid norm. Besides the obvious point that nobody is above the law, this "taking high road" self-flagellation attitude NEVER FUCKING WORKS for Dems. It yields no electoral advantage. It serves no purpose other than to make the GOP's soft coup easier to accomplish.

[chainsaw 9870]

13 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Explain to me how this "norm" is being followed when that fat tub of criminal shit is NOT RUNNING FOR OFFICE IN 2022?

"Can't indict a former president because it might influence the special election runoff for the library board of trustees in Kenosha."

[TwiceHorn 31493]

8 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Explain to me how this "norm" is being followed when that fat tub of criminal shit is NOT RUNNING FOR OFFICE IN 2022?

The policy has never been limited to candidates for office.  And it doesn't forbid anything, it just requires pre-approval at the highest levels.

[tx 3 putt 76987]

5 minutes ago, CTC2 said:

I have litigated for 30 years all over the country and I know for a certainty that most defendants in any matter in a federal court cannot get away with the bs Trump and his lawyers get away with. Specious arguments, delay for the sake of delay, refusing to produce discovery etc. 

Cannon is in the tank for Trump and she does not care who knows it  

 

 

1000000% correct 

 

[Dahobbs 17608]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

You don't find ruling that the criminal investigation must be paused to be substantive?

1) She didn't delay the investigation, but rather the ability of the investigation to use certain documents;

2) A delay isn't a substantive ruling on a criminal proceeding (I of course thought she had not authority to actually do that);

3) The delay was immediately slapped down by the 11th Circuit (because she had no fucking authority to do that);

4) The above happened at light speed compared to normal criminal or civil litigation;

I think she biased towards Trump. I think her rulings have been shit. But I don't think she is completely all in on getting him out of trouble. If she were, she would be doing a lot more than she is. None of this stuff she is dealing with now matters. It is actually really bad for Trump this whole thing is happening because it just creates opportunities for him to implicate himself in more crimes. 

[chainsaw 9870]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

1) She didn't delay the investigation, but rather the ability of the investigation to use certain documents;

2) A delay isn't a substantive ruling on a criminal proceeding (I of course thought she had not authority to actually do that);

3) The delay was immediately slapped down by the 11th Circuit (because she had no fucking authority to do that);

4) The above happened at light speed compared to normal criminal or civil litigation;

I think she biased towards Trump. I think her rulings have been shit. But I don't think she is completely all in on getting him out of trouble. If she were, she would be doing a lot more than she is. None of this stuff she is dealing with now matters. It is actually really bad for Trump this whole thing is happening because it just creates opportunities for him to implicate himself in more crimes. 

If I am afraid of being arrested, can I sue the government in a court of my choice to slow down the investigation? If the answer is no, then it should also be no for former presidents and it should also be no for possible candidates.

[Horn Dog 9875]

13 hours ago, Mole said:

The thing that’s so vexing to non-lawyers isn’t the delay, it’s the absurdity of treating such preposterous claims as serious issues to discuss. Hearing things about “uncharted legal waters,” or “open legal question” when it comes to things that are on their face moronic is akin to having an existential crisis. The vanity of pretending that this fatuousness requires some somber, legal analysis and explanation is just too much for the non-legal mind to fathom.

Whatever the final result, it feels like it’s already baked in and we’re just watching it play out. All of the legal reasoning is just trying to come up with some pretext to justify however this all plays out. I get that it’s necessary, but it’s necessary like the coordinator search will be in a few months. It’s meaningless; all is vanity.

This reminds me of when I was a medical resident and a guy came into the ER complaining of rectal pain.  We do an xray and find a screwdriver, a soda can, a set of car keys and a small tool box in his rectum.  We rush him to surgery to remove these items and as we are prepping him I can't help but ask him how this happened.  He says "I fell down the stairs."   When I present him at ground rounds and state that "The patient states these items appeared in his rectum after a fall down the stairs" there was no discussion of "Wow, this unchartered medical circumstances!"   No one proposed a literature search to see if "flaccid rectal syndrome" was a thing.  No one called  the social worker to do a house visit see if this man's stairs when indeed expectantly shoving tools in his rectum.  We fucking laughed, and the then moved on.   Somehow I feel like if the room had been filled with lawyers the discussion would still be going on.

 

[TwiceHorn 31493]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

If I am afraid of being arrested, can I sue the government in a court of my choice to slow down the investigation? If the answer is no, then it should also be no for former presidents and it should also be no for possible candidates.

Well a more accurate example is this.

If you are Joe Citizen and the government executes a search warrant on your or your lawyer's office and seizes a good chunk of privileged material relating to you, then yes, you could very likely sue the government to return that material to you and to prevent it from using that material against you pending its return.  Contingent, of course, on evaluation and proof that the material is, in fact, privileged.

The question whether you have the means to do that and whether the benefit exceeds the cost are different matters entirely.  As are the questions of viability of the privilege claims.

[Dahobbs 17608]

7 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

If I am afraid of being arrested, can I sue the government in a court of my choice to slow down the investigation? If the answer is no, then it should also be no for former presidents and it should also be no for possible candidates.

The answer is actually yes. You can do the exact same thing Trump did when property is taken from you. The issue here wasn't the suit itself. Everyone has this right. There is literally a Federal Rule that addresses it. The problem was the procedure she chose to address it, the ignoring of separation of powers and interests of the executive branch to conduct criminal investigations without interference by the judicial branch, and her skipping over the part where Trump has the burden of proof. 

[Pato del Muerto 52509]

Lost me at small toolbox, but maybe all the other items were in the toolbox to begin with and the lid fell open after the incident?

[chainsaw 9870]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

The answer is actually yes. You can do the exact same thing Trump did when property is taken from you. The issue here wasn't the suit itself. Everyone has this right. There is literally a Federal Rule that addresses it. The problem was the procedure she chose to address it, the ignoring of separation of powers and interests of the executive branch to conduct criminal investigations without interference by the judicial branch, and her skipping over the part where Trump has the burden of proof. 

It's weird that nobody else seems to do this. Seems really effective

[GenXer 2882]

3 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

This reminds me of when I was a medical resident and a guy came into the ER complaining of rectal pain.  We do an xray and find a screwdriver, a soda can, a set of car keys and a small tool box in his rectum.  

 

Did he uber to the hospital, or did he find an extra set of stairs at the hospital to get the keys in his ass after he parked?

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

10 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

This reminds me of when I was a medical resident and a guy came into the ER complaining of rectal pain.  We do an xray and find a screwdriver, a soda can, a set of car keys and a small tool box in his rectum.  

 

Somehow I thought this was going to end with "THE ARISTOCRATS"

 

[TwiceHorn 31493]

11 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

It's weird that nobody else seems to do this. Seems really effective

Well, the fact of the matter is that it happens, you just haven't been paying attention to the right sources.

Here's an ABA practice pointer  on it from four years ago, referring to Cohen's special master, and another case out of Arizona. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/criminal/practice/2018/taint-team-or-special-master-one-recent-analysis/

The authoritative case on such things in the 11th and 5th Circuits, Richey v. Smith, is almost 50 years old.

Edited September 30, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[chainsaw 9870]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, the fact of the matter is that it happens, you just haven't been paying attention to the right sources.

Here's an ABA practice pointer  on it from four years ago, referring to Cohen's special master, and another case out of Arizona. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/criminal/practice/2018/taint-team-or-special-master-one-recent-analysis/

But how often really does it happen? I understand when a lawyer office gets searched, that's obviously a sensitive situation. This isn't that.

[Dahobbs 17608]

Just now, chainsaw said:

But how often really does it happen? I understand when a lawyer office gets searched, that's obviously a sensitive situation. This isn't that.

There were a litany of cases cited in the briefing and Cannon's order. It happens frequently. That's literally why we have case law on it. 

[Foosters 17858]

Fwiw, I routinely delay cases with motions to challenge warrants, suppress evidence, and return property.

It's done all the time. 

When our judge gets it wrong, it's not in front of the 9th circuit by the end of the week, either.

It's common for felony cases to drag out over a year between arraignment and trial.

[Horn Dog 9875]

15 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Lost me at small toolbox, but maybe all the other items were in the toolbox to begin with and the lid fell open after the incident?

Inner city Level 1 trauma centers are wild places.   You would be amazed at the shit we saw.   Radiology had a "Wall of Shame"  dedicated to items found in rectums and the list I gave you was not even that unusual.   Amazingly, it was always "a fall" that was the cause.   Again, not one attending ever proposed a study of how falls were causing such a epidemic of rectal penetration, but perhaps we were just short sighted and should have taken it seriously. 

[chainsaw 9870]

Same question but nuclear secrets are at issue. Does the defendant get to fuck around?

[TwiceHorn 31493]

16 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Fwiw, I routinely delay cases with motions to challenge warrants, suppress evidence, and return property.

It's done all the time. 

When our judge gets it wrong, it's not in front of the 9th circuit by the end of the week, either.

It's common for felony cases to drag out over a year between arraignment and trial.

One perspective that some of us have that most of the board lacks is that the government can't be 100% trusted to treat privileged material correctly, taint or filter team notwithstanding.

The zeal for convicting Trump blinds a lot of us to the fact that the FBI are, in the end, just cops, with all that entails.  And this is, without doubt, the absolute juiciest case of any of their careers.  Whether that results in extra care or cutting corners in the zeal to convict, no one can know.

One of the really unfortunate factoids that arose here is that the government admitted to letting potentially attorney client privileged material slip past the filter/taint team on three different occasions.

Edited September 30, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Pato del Muerto 52509]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

Same question but nuclear secrets are at issue. Does the defendant get to fuck around?

They aren’t secrets anymore because the defendant says so. 

[Gil Bang 25961]

2 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

Inner city Level 1 trauma centers are wild places.   You would be amazed at the shit we saw.   Radiology had a "Wall of Shame"  dedicated to items found in rectums and the list I gave you was not even that unusual.   Amazingly, it was always "a fall" that was the cause.   Again, not one attending ever proposed a study of how falls were causing such a epidemic of rectal penetration, but perhaps we were just short sighted and should have taken it seriously. 

"million-to-one shot, Doc"

[TwiceHorn 31493]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Same question but nuclear secrets are at issue. Does the defendant get to fuck around?

We don't know for sure that there really are nuclear secrets.  But if you reword that as "classified shit," that does remove it from the usual case.

Nevertheless, that there is classified stuff doesn't change the fact that there is attorney client privileged material among that seized.  The government concedes that, as well as three instances of potentially mishandling it.  That, right there, provides an at least potential basis for appointing a special master.

Attempting to handle the classified material, and the non-attorney-client privileged material all in a similar manner to the attorney client stuff is more a matter of first impression.  And of course, the 11th Circuit has now ruled that the treatment of classified stuff in that manner was in error.

 

[chainsaw 9870]

I think y'all are way into the weeds here. The man is getting preferential treatment for no defensible reason.

[Dahobbs 17608]

Just now, chainsaw said:

I think y'all are way into the weeds here. The man is getting preferential treatment for no defensible reason.

And I think you don't know what you're talking about. 

He is getting preferential treatment from judge Cannon. Not bend over backwards treatment, but definitely more preferential than a typical defendant. You could say he (or the government) also got preferential treatment from the 11th Circuit in the form of a quick resolution to government's requested stay. It just backfired for him that time. Again, these issues are being litigated at light speed. Other defendants don't get resolution of issues anywhere near this quickly. 

[Foosters 17858]

11 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I think y'all are way into the weeds here. The man is getting preferential treatment for no defensible reason.

Cuts both ways. You think a poor person who wins on a suppression motion is going to have that victory totally erased by a federal appellate court within the week?

No. The government shrugs and moves on because the maw must be fed.

[Gengs1 2583]

The dems following norms got us in this dumb mess, Fuck the norms and do what needs to be done now 

[chainsaw 9870]

Everyone knows he had stuff he wasn't allowed to have. Everyone knows the search was legal. Everyone knows Trump's strategy is to delay things.

Anyone helping him delay things is complicit. I would totally be sympathetic if he had legitimate arguments. I'm completely in favor of due process and I don't like the government running over people. This is not that situation. We know who and what we're dealing with here. Delay for the sake of delay is wrong, and judges shouldn't tolerate it ever.

I don't know what more the judge could be doing to carry water for Trump. She's pretty much done as much as she can while maintaining "plausible" (wink wink) deniability.

[tx 3 putt 76987]

2 minutes ago, Gengs1 said:

The dems following norms got us in this dumb mess, Fuck the norms and do what needs to be done now 

shoot to kill, always