A story about a pathetic man's downfall [34 Felony Convictions]

[henrygandorf 29190]

1 hour ago, Goredho said:

To the degree that I failed in that and led others to believe that all conservatives and Republicans are their enemy to be destroyed, I was wrong, and I'm sorry.

if you have friends and family that are true conservatives, they should have no problem supporting biden and his policies. if that is abhorrent to them, i have some bad news for you. 

[Goredho 17402]

7 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

They’re family, friends, former co-workers, etc. so I do know them, and if they vote for Trump a second time, they’ve crossed a clear line and told us that they are shitty people clearly willing to support somebody who gives no shits about the Constitution.  Anybody supporting him in 2024 does not get to play the “well, he says some things I don’t like, but I don’t like Biden either” card.

But for what it’s worth, I am not certain that Trump will even get the nomination, and even if he does, he’s not winning again. 

 

5 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

It seems like you have completely forgotten that most of us have people we love who are Republican voters.  However, they are on the wrong side of history at this point.  Continuing to vote for what the Republicans have become means you really don't care that their rhetoric is leading to mass shootings and they want to strip the rights from women, LGBTQ, and minorities.  It is no longer a matter of difference of political opinion, but a matter or right vs wrong and good vs evil.

I appreciate your positions, and I know people just as you describe.  I know they are part of the problem.  I know they may never come back from their own ledge.  But I know others...

Probably the most stark example of a good person I know who did not vote against Trump in the past two elections is a white Christian male family member.  He and his wife adopted two black children from Haiti as infants.  Children who have no relationship to their biological families.  You may remember back in 2010, there was that massive earthquake in Haiti that devastated the island.  This family member personally gave a 6 figure donation to relief groups.  He himself went to Haiti in the aftermath, able to communicate only with a satellite phone.  He found the birth mothers of his children and helped them rebuild somewhat.  He and his wife would return the next three years for a month each year as missionaries in their villages, helping build schools and such.  They only stopped after helping migrate these two black female foreigners and the rest of their families to the US and get them established here.  They have since helped pay for all of their children to go to college.

He and his wife could have simply said a prayer for the people in Haiti and enjoyed their children.  Their children had no ties to their biological families in Haiti, no memories.  They weren't begging their parents to do something.  These people didn't have a connection to these mothers, they had met them only once for about 15 minutes when the adoptions were finalized.  But this guy and his wife were in a position to help, had the means to do so, and felt compelled to act.  They made a more positive difference in these people's lives than anyone I have witnessed before or since, and they never publicized it.

I am closest to the man, he's a cousin, roughly the same age, and we spent a lot of time together growing up.  We went to Texas together at the same time.  We've been in each other's "inner circle" throughout our lives, often contacting the other for advice and otherwise being there for each other in times of trial.  So I know this guy really well.  He would describe himself as a Christian and a conservative.  He's a registered Republican, and he tunes in primarily to Fox.  He thought Hilary was the worst of two options, and voted for Trump.  He disliked Trump, but also didn't care for Biden, so he wrote in "God" for President in 2020.  He thinks Biden has been a really poor President, and I can't find many faults with his reasons.  He sees how the stars are aligning in 2024, and he fears his choice is going to again be Biden, Trump or God, I guess.  He is definitely conflicted and is not sure what he will do in that event.

As I said, I know him, and I know this is all true.  I know all this because even though I can't fathom how he could have voted for Trump in the first place or be conflicted even now, I have not cast him out of my life.  No one here can tell me this person is a lier, evil, irredeemable and a net negative to society just because he can be classified as a white Christian conservative male who is still troubled by and unsure of his political options.  That is judging and sentencing him as an individual using only the evidence of his race, religion and sex.  That is exactly what far right hate groups do, and it is categorically wrong.

So I am not going to cut him out of my life.  I am not going to bludgeon him with his voting mistakes.  I am going to continue to engage with him as a family member, a friend, a confidant, a teacher and a student.  I am going to continue to show him that not all progressive non-believers are evil heathens intent on his destruction, just as he shows me that not all white conservative Christian males are evil automatons and irredeemably lost.  And I am hopefully going to continue to help him through his own self-reconciliation and decision making in this unprecedented time of great peril so that he can be on the right side of history.

Your mileage (and experiences) may vary.

[YGIFS 19450]

I’m starting to get the impression that a lot of what many of us post on here wasn’t intended to help the nation.  But rather it’s the cathartic release of the shit we wished we could say to our family and friends that fell for the ruse.  
 

while they are complicit in their stupidity, a small part of them was duped and conned.  And IRL, a small part of me aches for them because deep down I know I almost broke that way and deep down, they know they were fooled but have too much pride to admit as much.  
 

most cleansing thing you can ever do is admit you are powerless against something so harmful.  By no coincidence, it’s also the hardest fucking thing to do.   There is no intervention for MAGA Stupidity.  But it would make for one helluva great reality show. And we’d all make enough money off it to retire as Kings.  though we’d be shot shortly after post-production. 

[Goredho 17402]

1 minute ago, YGIFS said:

I’m starting to get the impression that a lot of what many of us post on here wasn’t intended to help the nation.  But rather it’s the cathartic release of the shit we wished we could say to our family and friends that fell for the ruse.  

I think you are 100% correct here.  At least this corner of Surly is more of a support group than discussion forum.

[Willfully Horn 8014]

48 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Second law of thermodynamics certainly agrees with you

Funny you bring that up,

Quote

One of the many big ideas in physicist Sean B. Carroll’s The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself is the concept that entropy can drive increasing complexity. In fact if our universe did not have increasing entropy as one of its fundamental components, we would not have the complex world we see today, including you and me.

If you paid the slightest attention in high school science classes that should strike you as a profound paradox. Entropy, put simply, is the tendency of things to break down, to wear out over time. An abandoned house becomes a demonstration of entropy at a macro level. Without any human intervention, the house will fall apart over time, and eventually completely disintegrate into the environment.

Entropy is often cited by creationists as supposed evidence against evolution, or even the entire universe as we observe it today. If entropy has has been in operation since a moment after the Big Bang (and it has), how could we have the incredibly complex world we live in today?

In The Big Picture (which I highly encourage you to read) Carroll explains how entropy works as a kind of engine for complexity. As counterintuitive as that sounds, it is now a fundamental of physics. In fact, increasing entropy, the very thing that will lead to the eventual heat death of our universe, is absolutely essential to emergent complexity sans divine intervention.

In an interview with Wired, physicist Sharon Glotzer, who has been exploring the concept of emergence (how and why complex systems emerge from simpler systems) confronts the apparent paradox:

We typically think entropy means disorder, and so a disordered structure would have more entropy than an ordered structure. That can be true under certain circumstances, but it’s not always true, and in these cases, it’s not. I prefer to think of entropy as related to options: The more options a system of particles has to arrange itself, the higher the entropy. In certain circumstances, it’s possible for a system to have more options – more possible arrangements – of its building blocks if the system is ordered.

She explains that entropy sets particles to “wiggling,” and they have a tendency to want to maximize their individual “wiggle room” as it were. This can drive them into a structure that winds up being complex, when seen as a whole.

This is not only true of particles at the atomic and subatomic levels, but of much more visible phenomena such as the beautiful patterns seen as a flock of starlings gathers in the sky. These murmurations as they are called appear to involve some kind of shared consciousness or central intelligence, as if the birds were being orchestrated by some higher power. But in reality, what we witness is the emergent patterns from each individual starling simply doing it darndest not to collide with the starlings nearby.

What we now know about how complex systems emerge from simpler ones may show the path to unraveling the mystery behind the most complex system we know of in our universe: our own consciousness.

https://medium.com/@marktraphagen/entropy-and-complexity-the-surprising-paradox-behind-our-universe-60f11409da9b

[Biff Tannen 45681]

7 minutes ago, Goredho said:

 

I appreciate your positions, and I know people just as you describe.  I know they are part of the problem.  I know they may never come back from their own ledge.  But I know others...

Probably the most stark example of a good person I know who did not vote against Trump in the past two elections is a white Christian male family member.  He and his wife adopted two black children from Haiti as infants.  Children who have no relationship to their biological families.  You may remember back in 2010, there was that massive earthquake in Haiti that devastated the island.  This family member personally gave a 6 figure donation to relief groups.  He himself went to Haiti in the aftermath, able to communicate only with a satellite phone.  He found the birth mothers of his children and helped them rebuild somewhat.  He and his wife would return the next three years for a month each year as missionaries in their villages, helping build schools and such.  They only stopped after helping migrate these two black female foreigners and the rest of their families to the US and get them established here.  They have since helped pay for all of their children to go to college.

He and his wife could have simply said a prayer for the people in Haiti and enjoyed their children.  Their children had no ties to their biological families in Haiti, no memories.  They weren't begging their parents to do something.  These people didn't have a connection to these mothers, they had met them only once for about 15 minutes when the adoptions were finalized.  But this guy and his wife were in a position to help, had the means to do so, and felt compelled to act.  They made a more positive difference in these people's lives than anyone I have witnessed before or since, and they never publicized it.

I am closest to the man, he's a cousin, roughly the same age, and we spent a lot of time together growing up.  We went to Texas together at the same time.  We've been in each other's "inner circle" throughout our lives, often contacting the other for advice and otherwise being there for each other in times of trial.  So I know this guy really well.  He would describe himself as a Christian and a conservative.  He's a registered Republican, and he tunes in primarily to Fox.  He thought Hilary was the worst of two options, and voted for Trump.  He disliked Trump, but also didn't care for Biden, so he wrote in "God" for President in 2020.  He thinks Biden has been a really poor President, and I can't find many faults with his reasons.  He sees how the stars are aligning in 2024, and he fears his choice is going to again be Biden, Trump or God, I guess.  He is definitely conflicted and is not sure what he will do in that event.

As I said, I know him, and I know this is all true.  I know all this because even though I can't fathom how he could have voted for Trump in the first place or be conflicted even now, I have not cast him out of my life.  No one here can tell me this person is a lier, evil, irredeemable and a net negative to society just because he can be classified as a white Christian conservative male who is still troubled by and unsure of his political options.  That is judging and sentencing him as an individual using only the evidence of his race, religion and sex.  That is exactly what far right hate groups do, and it is categorically wrong.

So I am not going to cut him out of my life.  I am not going to bludgeon him with his voting mistakes.  I am going to continue to engage with him as a family member, a friend, a confidant, a teacher and a student.  I am going to continue to show him that not all progressive non-believers are evil heathens intent on his destruction, just as he shows me that not all white conservative Christian males are evil automatons and irredeemably lost.  And I am hopefully going to continue to help him through his own self-reconciliation and decision making in this unprecedented time of great peril so that he can be on the right side of history.

Your mileage (and experiences) may vary.

So he only voted for trump in 2016 and learned from his mistake?  He is not who we are talking about.

[wildcat09 29354]

16 hours ago, Goredho said:

I don't know what to say other than you are completely wrong.  You have a lot more time than me to dedicate to debate and pontification here, so I'll leave it at this.

You are pigeon holing a whole lot of people into a single class that you feel must be completely marginalized if not eliminated for the good of society.  That makes you guilty of exactly what you would crucify those people for.  I know for a fact some of the people that you would catch up in your net are not what you want to believe they are.  I have known them, deeply, intimately, for years.  I have lived with them, one for decades. I have seen them carry out great acts of selfless kindness for people who are squarely outside of the conservative, white, Christian heterosexual demographic they belong to.  And yes, I've seen them fall prey to a cult-like political psyops campaign.

These people are not Nazi monsters.  They are humans, capable of being duped and capable of making mistakes.  Just like you are.

Someone else can have my spot on the ledge.

So were the nazis. Few nazis were true monsters. 

[YGIFS 19450]

Monsters don’t put people on trains bound for nowhere.  That’s the only reason it works.  Otherwise people would bum-rush the monsters to save their families.

evacuation only works when I come as a neighborly authority figure.  But some people don’t have the stomach for what’s necessary.  50 of his 75mm supporters will forget this ever happened.  What the other 25mm need is a Question.  

[wildcat09 29354]

6 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

Totally agree. The dehumanization of huge swaths of US citizens is a very sad and alarming thing to see by supposed educated people.  This division seems to be exactly what Putin wanted. 

Recognizing that normal, kind, decent-seeming people are capable of becoming nazis isn't dehumanizing. Believing they can't is dehumanizing, because it refuses to recognize what humanity actually is, warts and all.

[atomheartbevo 89659]

30 minutes ago, Goredho said:

is a white Christian male family member. 

I agree with a lot of what you say, and upon further reflection I’m willing to forgiven and forget with those Republicans who vote for somebody other than Trump, because as mentioned, they aren’t who we are talking about).  I’ve explained to enough family and friends why I went from a card-carrying Republican who campaigned for George W. to an independent who has voted for Obama and Biden, and some were fine with it, and some are still angry with me over it.

But those claiming to be Christian, it can be irritating as hell when they will support a GOP that may pretend to embrace Christianity, but then try to elect candidates like Trump and Herschel Walker over actual Christians like Biden and Warnock, or that try to make life shitty for anybody who disagrees with them, for no discernible reason other than to own the libs.

Not quite related, but this year my wife bailed on her/our longtime Southern Baptist church here in Austin (and based on their fundraising struggles and decreasing attendance, we aren’t the only family with young kids to do so).  Switched to a Presbyterian church and it was 100% night-and-day.  People were cheerier, we didn’t end up with stupid discussions in the halls or Sunday school classes where politics were mixed with religion or the bashing of liberals.  There was no talk of excluding this or that group.

I don’t know what the solution is, and I’m way off topic. but I feel like your cousin and others like him could benefit from things like changing what churches they go to, who they hang out with, etc., as well as somebody showing them that words matter and they can’t simply stay silent about things like what Trump said this past week.  I just feel like they can’t simply say “well, he sometimes says things I disagree with” because my example earlier of a Vietnam vet family member talking that attitude, it’s not just a matter of “he said something you don’t disagree with”, but rather “he wants to terminate  one of the things that you consider to be the bedrock of this country and your life, all because he lost, and if a liberal had said it, you’d be foaming at the mouth”.

Edited December 6, 2022 by atomheartbevo

[henrygandorf 29190]

 

[safe sex 11722]

16 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Not quite related, but this year my wife bailed on her/our longtime Southern Baptist church here in Austin (and based on their fundraising struggles and decreasing attendance, we aren’t the only family with young kids to do so).  Switched to a Presbyterian church and it was 100% night-and-day.  People were cheerier, we didn’t end up with stupid discussions in the halls or Sunday school classes where politics were mixed with religion or the bashing of liberals.  There was no talk of excluding this or that group.

The Frozen Chosen are having their own internal struggles around questions of modernity that has caused some synods to fracture (my mom and dad no longer attend the same church), but they're still miles better than most American denominations.

[Brisketexan 105123]

24 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I don’t know what the solution is, and I’m way off topic. but I feel like your cousin and others like him could benefit from things like changing what churches they go to, who they hang out with, etc., as well as somebody showing them that words matter and they can’t simply stay silent about things like what Trump said this past week.

Bingo.  Note the part where Goredho says his cousin still gets all of his info from FOX news.  As long as that remains true, he is a lost cause.  He is purposefully consuming hostile disinformation that is ACT

[Goredho 17402]

Last post from me today, I have work to do.  Donald Trump has enemies in the Republican party.  The prevailing attitude here is "Fuck em.  They're Nazis, or Nazi enablers.  They must be destroyed with the rest of the Republican Party!"  I think that is stupid.  They should be worked with, supported and emboldened.  Here's a choose your own adventure explanation of why using our beloved Nazi Germany pre-WWII analogy, which I am sure no one gives a shit about.

Page 1
It is at the point in the timeline after the Beer Hall Putsch and before Hitler was made Chancellor with supreme power.  Somewhere in the mid 1930s.  You are a powerful German citizen, a member of the opposition party, and you are approached by a small number of of Nazi party members with the desire for help in conspiring against Hitler to bring about his downfall.

They want to work discretely but directly with you and receive your assistance to take down Hitler and install instead Erich Von Boogerstein as head of the Nazi party.  You have a vision of the future, and you know what Hitler will bring.  You know that if Hitler gets complete control of the German government, 15-20 million people in Europe will die, including 4 million of your countrymen.  You know the Holocaust will happen, and that 6 million jews will be exterminated in genocide.  You know your country will be subjugated and divided and not recover for 50 years.

You don't like Von Boogerstein, he is just as repulsive in his beliefs as Hitler.  He would likely do the exact same things -- if he could.  But Hitler is unusual.  He's crude, but with a unique and singular hold over a critical mass of the population, and you know exactly who he is and what he will do.  With Von Boogerstein, there's a chance he may not be able to entrance the populace to the degree required to achieve those aims.  With Von Boogerstein, there's a chance to avoid all that death and destruction.

What do you do?

1.  Do you slap them and yell, "GET THE FUCK OUT, NAZI!  YOU ARE ONE OF THEM AND WILL BE DESTROYED ALONG WITH HITLER, VON BOOGERSTEIN AND THE REST OF YOUR PARTY.  THE NEXT TIME WE WILL SEE EACH OTHER IS AT ONE OF OUR HANGINGS!"  (turn to page 2)

2. Do you try to elevate Hitler in the belief that he is so repulsive, that the populace will favor your party and it will be easier for you to erect your own vision for Germany?  Do you risk that even though Hitler might prevail with his popular hold, and if he does, WWII and the holocaust are all but guaranteed to happen?  (turn to page 2)

3.  Do you vet their overture and make the calculated risk that while the Nazis are bad, Hitler is the worst of them, and it's in my nation's best interests to bring about his downfall before he gets the opportunity to make any challenge impossible?  Yes, the Nazi's are still a problem to be dealt with, but without their God-king leading and emboldening them, they very well may be easier to defeat. (turn to page 3)

Page 2
The Nazis assume complete control and you are murdered as a political dissident.  WWII ignites, the holocaust happens.  Your wife and children die in the Dresden fire bombings.  Your country is subjugated and divided.  The end.

Page 3
Hitler has a fall from grace.  Von Boogerstein assumes control of the Nazi party.  Flip a coin, if heads, turn to page 2.  If tails, the end. 

 

[atomheartbevo 89659]

9 minutes ago, safe sex said:

The Frozen Chosen are having their own internal struggles around questions of modernity that has caused some synods to fracture (my mom and dad no longer attend the same church), but they're still miles better than most American denominations.

I honestly don’t understand all of it - I’m not that religious and wasn’t raised as such, but it just seemed like a much more diverse and happier group.  Which is ironic, because her old church also had Korean, Spanish, and Chinese-language services.

Meanwhile the Methodists are going through one helluva conference realignment over LGBTQ issues.

https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/more-than-400-texas-methodist-churches-vote-to-leave-denomination/

[tx 3 putt 76935]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Brisket has a high school girlfriend?

[wildcat09 29354]

4 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Last post from me today, I have work to do.  Donald Trump has enemies in the Republican party.  The prevailing attitude here is "Fuck em.  They're Nazis, or Nazi enablers.  They must be destroyed with the rest of the Republican Party!"  I think that is stupid.  They should be worked with, supported and emboldened.  Here's a choose your own adventure explanation of why using our beloved Nazi Germany pre-WWII analogy, which I am sure no one gives a shit about.

Page 1
It is at the point in the timeline after the Beer Hall Putsch and before Hitler was made Chancellor with supreme power.  Somewhere in the mid 1930s.  You are a powerful German citizen, a member of the opposition party, and you are approached by a small number of of Nazi party members with the desire for help in conspiring against Hitler to bring about his downfall.

They want to work discretely but directly with you and receive your assistance to take down Hitler and install instead Erich Von Boogerstein as head of the Nazi party.  You have a vision of the future, and you know what Hitler will bring.  You know that if Hitler gets complete control of the German government, 15-20 million people in Europe will die, including 4 million of your countrymen.  You know the Holocaust will happen, and that 6 million jews will be exterminated in genocide.  You know your country will be subjugated and divided and not recover for 50 years.

You don't like Von Boogerstein, he is just as repulsive in his beliefs as Hitler.  He would likely do the exact same things -- if he could.  But Hitler is unusual.  He's crude, but with a unique and singular hold over a critical mass of the population, and you know exactly who he is and what he will do.  With Von Boogerstein, there's a chance he may not be able to entrance the populace to the degree required to achieve those aims.  With Von Boogerstein, there's a chance to avoid all that death and destruction.

What do you do?

1.  Do you slap them and yell, "GET THE FUCK OUT, NAZI!  YOU ARE ONE OF THEM AND WILL BE DESTROYED ALONG WITH HITLER, VON BOOGERSTEIN AND THE REST OF YOUR PARTY.  THE NEXT TIME WE WILL SEE EACH OTHER IS AT ONE OF OUR HANGINGS!"  (turn to page 2)

2. Do you try to elevate Hitler in the belief that he is so repulsive, that the populace will favor your party and it will be easier for you to erect your own vision for Germany?  Do you risk that even though Hitler might prevail with his popular hold, and if he does, WWII and the holocaust are all but guaranteed to happen?  (turn to page 2)

3.  Do you vet their overture and make the calculated risk that while the Nazis are bad, Hitler is the worst of them, and it's in my nation's best interests to bring about his downfall before he gets the opportunity to make any challenge impossible?  Yes, the Nazi's are still a problem to be dealt with, but without their God-king leading and emboldening them, they very well may be easier to defeat. (turn to page 3)

Page 2
The Nazis assume complete control and you are murdered as a political dissident.  WWII ignites, the holocaust happens.  Your wife and children die in the Dresden fire bombings.  Your country is subjugated and divided.  The end.

Page 3
Hitler has a fall from grace.  Von Boogerstein assumes control of the Nazi party.  Flip a coin, if heads, turn to page 2.  If tails, the end. 

 

So in this hypothetical, if we side with Van Boogerstein there's still 50/50 odds he and his supporters (your family members whom you don't want to condemn as nazis) carry out the Holocaust?

That's...not exactly a rousing defense of their non-nazi qualities.

[Brisketexan 105123]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Bingo.  Note the part where Goredho says his cousin still gets all of his info from FOX news.  As long as that remains true, he is a lost cause.  He is purposefully consuming hostile disinformation that is ACT

Got cutoff.

Bingo.  Note the part where Goredho says his cousin still gets all of his info from FOX news.  As long as that remains true, he is a lost cause.  He is purposefully consuming hostile disinformation that is actually intended to create division and promote fascism.  He will never, ever, see the world as it actually is - he will only see it as FOX tells him.  And what FOX tells him is that Biden is evil because Hunter and pizza parlors and he's got advanced dementia and fucks puppies or whatnot.  So OF COURSE he hates Biden, and voted for Trump.

And, maybe he wrote in God in 2020.  Maybe I believe that, maybe I don't.  But when it comes down to voting for Trump again vs. the GODLESS BIDEN, who RAPES PUPPIES or whatever bullshit FOX is selling....he's going to have a hard time not voting for Trump.  Because God and FOX told him to.

I don't despise your cousin because he's a white male conservative christian.  I despise him for what he has done, and will do, motivated by those things.  And the things that he does is support Trump and his movement which -- we repeat ourselves, but it's apparently not getting through -- sought and continues to seek to overthrow the Republic, void the Constitution, disenfranchise poor and minorities, and demonize the "other" repeatedly, relentlessly, and cruelly, motivating actual acts of violence against them (El Paso, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Colorado Springs power stations in NC, etc.).

If you support that movement, you are doing a bad, bad thing, that hurts all of us.  It particularly hurts the most vulnerable among us.  That is bad.  It is evil.  I don't care how much OTHER good you do.  I don't care if you were the most charitable person in Germany, giving all of your income to the poor, teaching the illiterate to read, innovating farming techniques, whatever.  If you helped the Nazis come to power and load jews onto trains, you did a bad and evil thing, and you supported pure evil.

As for what we do posting on this board, we vent.  We yell at the clouds.  Because, yeah, we've seen that "fat lot of good making sure the truth is out there, the MAGAs are immune to it, and actually react violently to it."  Still....we vote.  We contribute to candidates.  We work to help the most vulnerable among us who are targeted by the MAGAs.  And some of us look at ways to get the fuck out of here when the time comes, because yeah, we see what's coming.  

6 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

She's from Canada.  You wouldn't know her.

[C-Man 27222]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

So he only voted for trump in 2016 and learned from his mistake?  He is not who we are talking about.

Unless he ultimately decides to hold his nose and vote for Trump again. I can't see how any person who legitimately follows the teachings of Jesus/Christianity (I say this with full knowledge that most Christians are anything but) could objectively look at all that Trump is and STILL pull the lever for him. He's the anti-Christ in nearly every respect.

[DigglerontheHoof 21195]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Bingo.  Note the part where Goredho says his cousin still gets all of his info from FOX news.  As long as that remains true, he is a lost cause.  He is purposefully consuming hostile disinformation that is ACT

So much this.  Propaganda works. 

[C-Man 27222]

35 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

 

[Satchel 6938]

30 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I honestly don’t understand all of it - I’m not that religious and wasn’t raised as such, but it just seemed like a much more diverse and happier group.  Which is ironic, because her old church also had Korean, Spanish, and Chinese-language services.

Meanwhile the Methodists are going through one helluva conference realignment over LGBTQ issues.

https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/more-than-400-texas-methodist-churches-vote-to-leave-denomination/

Yep. Once all the real Christian’s leave, there may be a chance for United Methodists to get back to making disciples for the transformation of the world. Can’t do that while advocating for justice for gay members of your church.

[lemonlime 5503]

1 hour ago, Goredho said:

Probably the most stark example of a good person I know who did not vote against Trump in the past two elections is a white Christian male family member. 

 

23 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

I don't despise your cousin because he's a white male conservative christian.  I despise him for what he has done, and will do, motivated by those things.  And the things that he does is support Trump and his movement which -- we repeat ourselves, but it's apparently not getting through -- sought and continues to seek to overthrow the Republic, void the Constitution, disenfranchise poor and minorities, and demonize the "other" repeatedly, relentlessly, and cruelly, motivating actual acts of violence against them (El Paso, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Colorado Springs power stations in NC, etc.).

 

I don't despise anyone because they're a white, male, conservative Christian.  And based on your post, I'm assuming he's straight as well, but feel free to correct me on that one.  But as someone who is none of those things, other than white, I'm having a hard time believing someone who is taking part in a movement that is threatening my and my loved ones' existence, while being in the exact, narrow demographic where he is seemingly at little risk is a "good person" regardless of how much money he gave to charity.  Just like you could have someone virulently opposed to trump and the domestic terrorist, who cheats on his wife and his taxes and never gave a dime to charity, and is a "bad person," but is still on the right side of history and isn't endangering my life.

I'm also more than a little uncomfortable with the idea that there are "good people" and "bad people."  I'm not sure what combination of malice, ignorance, and brain washing is leading to otherwise "good" people supporting terrorism.  What I do know is that end of the day, when the history books are written, they will be remembered as Nazis Trumpers, regardless of how much money they gave to charity. And I'm tired hearing about excuses for people who are complicit in the willful destruction of our country.  Of course, the history books if books still exist are written by the victors, an even scarier thought here.

[FartingDreamer 138]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Brisket has a high school girlfriend?

In college, I had a minor...

Edited December 6, 2022 by FartingDreamer

[Chooky 13307]

Trump's entire campaign sounds like someone complaining to tech support. He's gonna give democracy a one star Yelp review. 

[henrygandorf 29190]

3 hours ago, Goredho said:

He thinks Biden has been a really poor President, and I can't find many faults with his reasons. 

gas prices?

[YGIFS 19450]

Were I the leader of the Free World and could control/manipulate global commodity prices...I wouldn't even mess with Oil & Gas.  I'd tank the price of gold and silver, buy on the dip, sell at the artificially crated apex of my choosing, and store all of my plans on my offspring's laptop.  Helluva lot easier to get rich that way, plus what I did wouldn't be advertised on every other street corner in the United States.  I mean, yeah there's the risk my child's laptop gets dragged into this, but so fewer people pay attention to precious metals commodity trading than do gas prices in bright LED lighting.  

[Ghost of LL 15531]

1 hour ago, lemonlime said:

 

I don't despise anyone because they're a white, male, conservative Christian.  And based on your post, I'm assuming he's straight as well, but feel free to correct me on that one.  But as someone who is none of those things, other than white, I'm having a hard time believing someone who is taking part in a movement that is threatening my and my loved ones' existence, while being in the exact, narrow demographic where he is seemingly at little risk is a "good person" regardless of how much money he gave to charity.  Just like you could have someone virulently opposed to trump and the domestic terrorist, who cheats on his wife and his taxes and never gave a dime to charity, and is a "bad person," but is still on the right side of history and isn't endangering my life.

I'm also more than a little uncomfortable with the idea that there are "good people" and "bad people."  I'm not sure what combination of malice, ignorance, and brain washing is leading to otherwise "good" people supporting terrorism.  What I do know is that end of the day, when the history books are written, they will be remembered as Nazis Trumpers, regardless of how much money they gave to charity. And I'm tired hearing about excuses for people who are complicit in the willful destruction of our country.  Of course, the history books if books still exist are written by the victors, an even scarier thought here.

There are "good people" and "bad people."  But all good people do bad things.  And at some point, a good person has done so many bad things that one day crosses that line and is now a bad person.

Some people look up and have a "are we the baddies" moment.  When that happens, a lot of them made a big course correction to try to get back on the "good" side of the ledger.

But most people never have that moment.  They never appreciate the bad that they've done.  And they certainly never take stock of whether those bad things have accumulated to render them a bad person.

That's not to say that bad people can't do good things.  I think all bad people do good things.  That's part of the wild thing about good and evil--it's found in all of us.

*************

Long-winded story time!

When I spent a summer in Germany with a school group, we took a weekend to go to the Bavarian Alps.  It was great.  We hit up Salzburg and then went over to Berchtesgaden--I still recommend the salt mine as a great tourist attraction.  And then we went on a small hike around the lake to a gasthaus that was run by our German teacher's former teacher.

He was a cool old guy.  This was 1990, and he was probably in his mid-60's.  He made lunch for us all, and we all drank plenty of bier.  And then we adjourned out to the deck overlooking the lake.  All-in-all, a pretty great afternoon.

So while we're talking about the area and his family, he tells how his family had lived in the area for several hundred years.  His grandfather fought in World War I; his father in World War II.  He had been too young for that one.  

And so he breaks out the family photo album.  He's got some good photos of himself as a kid.  And then, among those is a photo of him with Goebbels.  And then there's a photo of him sitting on Hitler's knee, and another one with him petting Blondi will Hitler and Eva Braun and his mother look on.  And he tells the story of how his father was an early Nazi while he was in college in Munich, and had become a good friend of Hitler's.  So every time Hitler went to his retreat in the Obersalzburg, he would stop at this very gasthaus and visit the family.  And so this guy had very fond memories of his Onkel Adolph, who always brought him chocolates and let him play with his dog.

And yeah--bringing a little Aryan kid chocolates is a very small "good."  One might even characterize it as de minimis.  But it is to say that even among the very baddest of people, there is an occasional good deed.

 

 

But don't run around calling Hitler a "good person" because he gave some Aryan kid a chocolate.

[Neonmoon 38129]

 

 

[Chooky 13307]

Ah, well, nevertheless? 

[YGIFS 19450]

So what mid level in house cPA or GC is gOnna take the fall for this one?

[SydneyCarton 48092]

15 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

 

 

This means the organization can potentially be dissolved, correct?

[YGIFS 19450]

2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

This means the organization can potentially be dissolved, correct?

Yes, but what neither you nor the courts nor the prosecution realizes is after dissolution…the company can reboot itself under an assumed name like “Trump Organization II”.  And under nickname immunity, will be free from Part Double Jeopardy!

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

3 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Yes, but what neither you nor the courts nor the prosecution realizes is after dissolution…the company can reboot itself under an assumed name like “Trump Organization II”.  And under nickname immunity, will be free from Part Double Jeopardy!

Except for Trump and his kids will most likely be prohibited from doing business in New York State.  

[SydneyCarton 48092]

2 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Except for Trump and his kids will most likely be prohibited from doing business in New York State.  

What happens to their assets?

[Chewbacca 7777]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

What happens to their assets?

Sell them

[The Dog 44043]

 

[lemonlime 5503]

7 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

What happens to their assets?

What assets?  They're up to their eyeballs in debt and grift.

[Macanudo 12977]

12 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Except for Trump and his kids will most likely be prohibited from doing business in New York State.  

Duh, just set up in Jersey.

[SydneyCarton 48092]

8 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Sell them

This is what we want to happen. But I want to know if that is actually going to happen. 

3 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

What assets?  They're up to their eyeballs in debt and grift.

Yeah. And by forcing their assets into receivership and sale, you take away things that they believe give them status, and force them to actually PAY THEIR DEBTS...which would cut their net worth and their ability to play musical loans way, way, down. I can take out a second mortgage on my home, unless I no longer have the home.

2 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Duh, just set up in Jersey.

Yeah, Atlantic City was really thrilled with how that turned out last time. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

19 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

What happens to their assets?

I assume they will be be forced to sell.  This is going to get ugly for them.

[YGIFS 19450]

25 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Except for Trump and his kids will most likely be prohibited from doing business in New York State.  

Well, there's always money in the banana stand.  

I love that for all their "business expertise"...not a single person outside of maybe Jared understands how a fucking balance sheet works.  They think, fully leveraged properties at highest possible appraisal rates, in aggregate, is Trump's literal net worth.  For maths, if I own 20% equity in 5 commercial properties, which total in wildly optimistic appraisals---$100.0m with a variable rate plus NNN and 70% occupancy.  That doesn't mean my net worth is $100mm.  I mean I know real estate finance and accounting can be obfuscating...but how do they not at some core, back-of-the-envelope level not understand their financial position?  

Edited December 6, 2022 by YGIFS

[The Dog 44043]

31 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Yeah, Atlantic City was really thrilled with how that turned out last time. 

Seriously, how in the FUCK do you lose money running a casino???

[Bozo_Casanova 26451]

40 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

Tanned, rested and ready

[YGIFS 19450]

7 minutes ago, The Dog said:

Seriously, how in the FUCK do you lose money running a casino???

The number of people who've bankrupted a casino is less than men who've walked on the moon (they may have been over-leveraged on the real estate or fucked up the G&A...but the actual gaming portion is an impossibility to wreck unless there's just massive, concerted larceny which can't happen anyway because of the accounting and law enforcement mechanisms in place that quash that shit after just a matter of hours/days).  And in actuality, he technically bankrupted the same casino twice.  It was a different dba/location, but same operator number.  Nobody in human history has ever done that.  Somebody will be impeached twice like him long before somebody else bankrupts a casino twice.  I mean it's mathematically impossible.  

Remember the movie "Casino" when Sam "Aces" Rothstein is explaining to the County Commissioner that being hit on the same machine three times that quickly is a mathematical impossibility?  It literally cannot happen in the physical, numerical universe in which we find ourselves.  It'd be like covering the spread of the Super Bowl, World Series, Stanley Cup in a parlay on the same day.  Sure it's theoretically possible, but the events cannot occur at the same time so it's a moot point.  

A former President of the most powerful nation in the history of Man bankrupted a casino twice, was impeached twice, and lost the popular vote twice.  That's insane.  That he's the Republican frontrunner having his balls sucked by Ted Cruz and half the DT posters makes me believe we are not living in the shadow of God.  We are malware waiting for a coding patch.

Edited December 6, 2022 by YGIFS

[TwiceHorn 31457]

7 hours ago, Red Five said:

Is he screaming about Hunter's laptop? Serious question, I don't know. Is that the obvious fraud in the 2020 election that was so bad they should just make Dotard president again?

Yes the new "irrefutable fraud" is that a non-news outlet, twt, "suppressed" the laptop story for two whole days.

[TwiceHorn 31457]

3 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

This means the organization can potentially be dissolved, correct?

Not as a punishment, per se, I don't think.  But a fine will be levied and one that most likely can't be dodged like a civil judgment.  The State of New York will become a super-creditor behind only secured creditors for the most part, so I am not sure even bankruptcy is really going to help.  Whatever cash and other non-leveraged property and equity will be subject to seizure.  And they may even be able to foreclose properites, although they would be behind secured creditors.

EDIT:  This is based on the notion that in enforcing and collecting criminal fines, the State of New York gives itself the same type of powers as the federal government.  That may or may not be true.

Edited December 7, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Red Five 40857]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yes the new "irrefutable fraud" is that a non-news outlet, twt, "suppressed" the laptop story for two whole days.

Well this will come as great news to President Hillary Clinton, considering that Dotard paid a porn star hush money just prior to the 2016 election. Gonna need a do-over there as well.

[TwiceHorn 31457]

Just now, Red Five said:

Well this will come as great news to President Hillary Clinton, considering that Dotard paid a porn star hush money just prior to the 2016 election. Gonna need a do-over there as well.

And Comey-gate and other non-fraudulent, non-election-related matter that may or may not have disadvantaged a candidate.

[Neonmoon 38129]

10 minutes ago, The Dog said:

Seriously, how in the FUCK do you lose money running a casino???

He never ran a casino. Every “business” Trump creates is scam to make him personally wealth by stealing the investors money, and there’s no shortage of dumb investors. 

 

Trump made money in Atlantic City through two primary means. One was extracting management fees from companies he was involved with, and the other was transferring personal debts to companies he controlled:

• The pattern started with his very first Atlantic City venture, a partnership with Harrah’s for which he was paid a $24 million construction management fee.
• Over the years, the Times reports, Trump "collected millions of dollars in salary, bonuses and other payments."
• In 1993, Trump Plaza casino sold more than $100 million in junk bonds and "more than half of the new money went to pay off Mr. Trump’s unrelated personal loans."
• In 1995, the company staged an IPO, and then a week later "the new company began using some of the almost $300 million it had raised to clear Mr. Trump’s personal debts."
• Trump’s casinos paid $300,000 a year for the right to use Trump’s jet to transport celebrities to gigs.
• Trump appears to have bilked the shareholders of Trump Casinos and Resorts out of the opportunity to share in a $1 million profit related to the sale of shares in Riviera Hotel and Casino, keeping the money for himself instead.

What Trump did not do was run successful casinos:

• "Revenues at other Atlantic City casinos rose 18 percent from 1997 through 2002; Mr. Trump’s fell by 1 percent."
• "Had Mr. Trump’s revenues grown at the rate of other Atlantic City casinos, his company could have made its interest payments and possibly registered a profit."

The public company never turned a profit, leaving behind a trail of losses for shareholders and bondholders, and unpaid bills to contractors and subcontractors.