A story about a pathetic man's downfall [34 Felony Convictions]

[Red Five 40855]

That room likes whiter than the time I saw Jim Gaffigan live. 

[Superhero 8829]

They’re all retarded?

[TwiceHorn 31453]

1 hour ago, Hermanator said:

I like how attorneys here say shit like this, shit that's completely reprehensible and horrifically corrupt, like it's no big deal and we should feel stupid for even thinking otherwise. All because the flaws and injustice in the system they deal with every day are so ridiculously common they see it as normalcy when they should see it as symptoms of the problem. 

And they wonder why they're hated. The hubris knows no bounds. 

Dude.  You realize that everything in a court room is subject to proof.  Which means testimony as to facts and occurrences.

That testimony ranges from fully accurate, to somewhat misremembered, to very misremembered, to flawed perception and memory producing false testimony,  misrepresentations, and flat-out lies.  Some is intentional and some is subconsciously motivated by a desire to win the case.

Unless the flat-out lie is easily proved as such and extremely material, ain't nobody in court got time to "prosecute."  And where on the spectrum of misapprehension to unintentional to intentional misrepresentation to lies is often not easily established or proven.  About the best anyone can do is ding the witness' credibility before the fact-finder.

 

And yeah, Habba saying she was "feeling feverish" is the most horrifically corrupt thing ever.  Not to mention you can't prove it's not true.  Nor is there any evidence that Judge Kaplan relied on it to adjourn court.  There were other reasons, most validly the actually sick juror.

Edited January 28 by TwiceHorn

[Gatorubet 30227]

58 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

I looked up where Trump gave his rally speech last night in Nevada...

Big League Dreams.  https://lasvegas.bigleaguedreams.com/  It's a baseball/softball field complex with batting cages about 5 miles north/northeast of the Strip.   Their claim to fame is having replica standiums that mimic Fenway, Wrigley and Yankee Stadium among others. 

Besides the on-site restaurant (burgers, hot dogs, nachos, etc., ) the closest local eats are McDonald's (of course), Golden Corral, Jack-in-the-Box and Fat Boy Hamburgers (I'm not making that up).  Their "20,000 square foot pavilion accomodates cheereading and dance competitions, as well as corporate events and parties."   That includes weddings (I shit you not)...  https://www.wedding-spot.com/venue/10455/Big-League-Dreams-Las-Vegas/

Overall, the reviews people have left are fairly positive but they only have a 3/5 score.

Like in Iowa, the facility looks like a VFA hall or barn and the crowd size is not remarkable in any way. My guess is that the owners are Trumpers and he got a huge discount.   I can't imagine Trump's campaign shelling out money for space at a Wynn property or some other casino.  I'd guess there were less than 750 people there.  From this picture it looks like less than 400 in the shot.   And overwhelmingly people between 40-70.   Notice anything else about the makeup of the crowd?

I see that “fuck your feelings” is still a fashion thing with them.

It’s actually sort of perfect as a cult member for a narcissist who has zero empathy for anyone. 

[Underdog 28617]

1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

I looked up where Trump gave his rally speech last night in Nevada...

Big League Dreams.  https://lasvegas.bigleaguedreams.com/  It's a baseball/softball field complex with batting cages about 5 miles north/northeast of the Strip.   Their claim to fame is having replica standiums that mimic Fenway, Wrigley and Yankee Stadium among others. 

Besides the on-site restaurant (burgers, hot dogs, nachos, etc., ) the closest local eats are McDonald's (of course), Golden Corral, Jack-in-the-Box and Fat Boy Hamburgers (I'm not making that up).  Their "20,000 square foot pavilion accomodates cheereading and dance competitions, as well as corporate events and parties."   That includes weddings (I shit you not)...  https://www.wedding-spot.com/venue/10455/Big-League-Dreams-Las-Vegas/

Overall, the reviews people have left are fairly positive but they only have a 3/5 score.

Like in Iowa, the facility looks like a VFA hall or barn and the crowd size is not remarkable in any way. My guess is that the owners are Trumpers and he got a huge discount.   I can't imagine Trump's campaign shelling out money for space at a Wynn property or some other casino.  I'd guess there were less than 750 people there.  From this picture it looks like less than 400 in the shot.   And overwhelmingly people between 40-70.   Notice anything else about the makeup of the crowd?

[im

 

 

 

 

[Gatorubet 30227]

20 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Dude.  You realize that everything in a court room is subject to proof.  Which means testimony as to facts and occurrences.

That testimony ranges from fully accurate, to somewhat misremembered, to very misremembered, to flawed perception and memory producing false testimony,  misrepresentations, and flat-out lies.  Some is intentional and some is subconsciously motivated by a desire to win the case.

Unless the flat-out lie is easily proved as such and extremely material, ain't nobody in court got time to "prosecute."  And where on the spectrum of misapprehension to unintentional to intentional misrepresentation to lies is often not easily established or proven.  About the best anyone can do is ding the witness' credibility before the fact-finder.

Every red light swearing contest traffic case will result in somebody losing who is found to be less credible than the other winning side.

I guess terminator wants perjury trials every time one side loses. Brilliant!

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20395]

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20395]

1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

I looked up where Trump gave his rally speech last night in Nevada...

Big League Dreams.  https://lasvegas.bigleaguedreams.com/  It's a baseball/softball field complex with batting cages about 5 miles north/northeast of the Strip.   Their claim to fame is having replica standiums that mimic Fenway, Wrigley and Yankee Stadium among others. 

Besides the on-site restaurant (burgers, hot dogs, nachos, etc., ) the closest local eats are McDonald's (of course), Golden Corral, Jack-in-the-Box and Fat Boy Hamburgers (I'm not making that up).  Their "20,000 square foot pavilion accomodates cheereading and dance competitions, as well as corporate events and parties."   That includes weddings (I shit you not)...  https://www.wedding-spot.com/venue/10455/Big-League-Dreams-Las-Vegas/

Overall, the reviews people have left are fairly positive but they only have a 3/5 score.

Like in Iowa, the facility looks like a VFA hall or barn and the crowd size is not remarkable in any way. My guess is that the owners are Trumpers and he got a huge discount.   I can't imagine Trump's campaign shelling out money for space at a Wynn property or some other casino.  I'd guess there were less than 750 people there.  From this picture it looks like less than 400 in the shot.   And overwhelmingly people between 40-70.   Notice anything else about the makeup of the crowd?

[im

 

 

 

Sir, you can mock big-league dreams all you want, but who wouldn't want to get married and then try to hit a dinger off the new bride?  

Taken from their website:

[SaucyJack 3488]

2 hours ago, Hermanator said:

I like how attorneys here say shit like this, shit that's completely reprehensible and horrifically corrupt, like it's no big deal and we should feel stupid for even thinking otherwise. All because the flaws and injustice in the system they deal with every day are so ridiculously common they see it as normalcy when they should see it as symptoms of the problem. 

And they wonder why they're hated. The hubris knows no bounds. 

 

There are ways a judge can handle an incredible attorney outside of contempt. There are many tools in that toolbox.

 

1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

I looked up where Trump gave his rally speech last night in Nevada...

Big League Dreams.  https://lasvegas.bigleaguedreams.com/  It's a baseball/softball field complex with batting cages about 5 miles north/northeast of the Strip.   Their claim to fame is having replica standiums that mimic Fenway, Wrigley and Yankee Stadium among others. 

Besides the on-site restaurant (burgers, hot dogs, nachos, etc., ) the closest local eats are McDonald's (of course), Golden Corral, Jack-in-the-Box and Fat Boy Hamburgers (I'm not making that up).  Their "20,000 square foot pavilion accomodates cheereading and dance competitions, as well as corporate events and parties."   That includes weddings (I shit you not)...  https://www.wedding-spot.com/venue/10455/Big-League-Dreams-Las-Vegas/

Overall, the reviews people have left are fairly positive but they only have a 3/5 score.

Like in Iowa, the facility looks like a VFA hall or barn and the crowd size is not remarkable in any way. My guess is that the owners are Trumpers and he got a huge discount.   I can't imagine Trump's campaign shelling out money for space at a Wynn property or some other casino.  I'd guess there were less than 750 people there.  From this picture it looks like less than 400 in the shot.   And overwhelmingly people between 40-70.   Notice anything else about the makeup of the crowd?

[im

 

 

 

I am guessing the Trump hotel was booked?  Haha

[Macanudo 12976]

31 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Sir, you can mock big-league dreams all you want, but who wouldn't want to get married and then try to hit a dinger off the new bride?  

Taken from their website:

I would pay good money to see him doink a line drive right back at the bride and see her try and avoid it.

[dcbc 14475]

46 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Every red light swearing contest traffic case will result in somebody losing who is found to be less credible than the other winning side.

I guess terminator wants perjury trials every time one side loses. Brilliant!

I tried to come up with a thoughtful reply, but I just kept wondering what he does for a living.  For, surely, no one in his profession ever has fucked over another human being and thus, he stands on the perfect soapbox.

Edited January 28 by dcbc

[BamaATL 16593]

15 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

I would pay good money to see him doink a line drive right back at the bride and see her try and avoid it.

I know I was always a pitch to contact line drive sort of hitter, I can imagine that turning out horrifically in that scenario.  

[Neonmoon 38129]

Who wants to spend their weekend going to a political rally?

[David Dennison 18856]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

Who wants to spend their weekend going to a political rally?

Fans.

[Macanudo 12976]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Fans.

OnlyFans

[Pato del Muerto 52490]

54 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Sir, you can mock big-league dreams all you want, but who wouldn't want to get married and then try to hit a dinger off the new bride?  

Taken from their website:

Wow, if I hadn’t read the post above talking about the place, I’d have sworn they were actually at fenway here!

[Hermanator 7039]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Dude.  You realize that everything in a court room is subject to proof.  Which means testimony as to facts and occurrences.

That testimony ranges from fully accurate, to somewhat misremembered, to very misremembered, to flawed perception and memory producing false testimony,  misrepresentations, and flat-out lies.  Some is intentional and some is subconsciously motivated by a desire to win the case.

Unless the flat-out lie is easily proved as such and extremely material, ain't nobody in court got time to "prosecute."  And where on the spectrum of misapprehension to unintentional to intentional misrepresentation to lies is often not easily established or proven.  About the best anyone can do is ding the witness' credibility before the fact-finder.

 

And yeah, Habba saying she was "feeling feverish" is the most horrifically corrupt thing ever.  Not to mention you can't prove it's not true.  Nor is there any evidence that Judge Kaplan relied on it to adjourn court.  There were other reasons, most validly the actually sick juror.

I don't expect you to agree. To you a situation where professionals lie their asses off while deciding the fate and freedom, sometimes for life, of other humans is completely normal. 

It SHOULD NOT be normal. Defense attorneys lying their asses off to "get a win". Prosecutors suppressing evidence of innocence to "get a win". 

Making a game out of people's lives is sick. The only goal in a court room should be getting at the truth of innocence or guilt, but the system is so disgustingly corrupt the incentive is to win at all costs to further your career. The obscene has become normalized for you because your whole life is built inside a corrupt system. 

1 hour ago, Gatorubet said:

Every red light swearing contest traffic case will result in somebody losing who is found to be less credible than the other winning side.

I guess terminator wants perjury trials every time one side loses. Brilliant!

Case in point. Another lost soul coming to your aid. I don't know how you can live with yourselves. 

[dcbc 14475]

2 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

It SHOULD NOT be normal.

It isn't.  And when things go wrong, appellate courts are there to correct them.  The system is far from perfect, but not every facet of it is as you say it is. 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2830]

3 hours ago, Hermanator said:

And they wonder why they're hated.

Not really.  They accept that they are hated by people who don't understand, or who are unwilling to understand, the system.

[Underdog 28617]

17 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Who wants to spend their weekend going to a political rally?

BlazingSaddlesMorons.gif

[Surly Bevo 24908]

This movie is way too fucking long, can we get an editor in here or something?

[Brisketexan 105103]

Case in point. Another lost soul coming to your aid. I don't know how you can live with yourselves. 

Your naivety is showing. What if two people tell conflicting stories, each genuinely believing it’s the truth? It literally happens ALL THE TIME. Human memory is fallible as hell.
When I was a kid, my mother and I saw a high speed chase end in a wreck right next to us. When we got home…a mere 10 minutes later…I told my dad about this epic aerial crash of a red Trans Am. My mother looks at me puzzled, “no, it was a silver pickup truck.”
If we’d related that exact memory in court, which one of us should have been prosecuted for perjury?
The reason that the crime of “you’re lying under oath” is really hard to prosecute is that it’s very difficult to get inside a human’s brain and determine if they are misremembering, partially remembering, lying, etc. Yes, sometimes we catch people lying dead to rights. I’ve been examining witnesses for over a quarter century. The number of ones I have stone-cold busted, clearly lying (not “I suspect they’re lying but can’t prove it,” or “that sure doesn’t sound right”) is probably around a dozen. And of those, maybe 4-5 were genuinely substantive lies. And in THOSE cases, the best thing to do was exactly what I did: show the judge or jury that the other side was a lying piece of shit, which they took into account in skullfucking him in the final outcome.
Perjury is very rarely prosecuted because it’s one of the hardest crimes to prove because it depends on concluding that the speaker actually knew that what they were saying was entirely false. So again, who goes to prison, my mom, or me? Or, twist: what if we were both wrong, and it was a blue sedan?

[TwiceHorn 31453]

40 minutes ago, dcbc said:

It isn't.  And when things go wrong, appellate courts are there to correct them.  The system is far from perfect, but not every facet of it is as you say it is. 

Yeah, just like every profession has bad apples so does the law.  

Trump attracts and needs bad examples of attorneys.

But isolated instances doesn't mean the entire system is corrupt.

[Macanudo 12976]

18 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, just like every profession has bad apples so does the law.  

 

Ok, but why are so many of those bad apple lawyers active as posters on Surly?  Answer that, smart guy.

🤪

[dcbc 14475]

12 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Ok, but why are so many of those bad apple lawyers active as posters on Surly?  Answer that, smart guy.

🤪

Because you touch yourself.

[Macanudo 12976]

2 hours ago, dcbc said:

Because you touch yourself.

Somebody has to.

[Bozo_Casanova 26449]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, just like every profession has bad apples so does the law.  

If only the profession had a mechanism to do something about those bad apples. 

[Macanudo 12976]

33 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

If only the profession had a mechanism to do something about those bad apples. 

Ethics?    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

6 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Sir, you can mock big-league dreams all you want, but who wouldn't want to get married and then try to hit a dinger off the new bride?  

Taken from their website:

You ain’t gonna be able to frame the pitch crouching that far off the plate, little ese.  Eric Gregg been dead.

[NWBuck 8552]

5 hours ago, Macanudo said:

OnlyFans

LonelyFans

[tx 3 putt 76926]

The orange dumb ass and R party ‘leaders’ are getting their marching orders from putin ….

 

Edited January 29 by tx 3 putt

[Gatorubet 30227]

7 hours ago, Hermanator said:

 

Case in point. Another lost soul coming to your aid. I don't know how you can live with yourselves. 

I don’t know how you can walk and chew gum at the same time, so…

Isn’t it fucking amazing that every court system in the United States does not follow your proposed procedure.    Why, it’s almost like all of those courts throughout the country realize that procedural and evidentiary and judicial resource problems prohibit a perjury trial after every trial. If only they had someone like you to correct their stupid thinking.    

But I personally appreciate your thoughts - if your opinions could be turned into something corporeal, they’d be a cyber truck.  They are that special. 

[TwiceHorn 31453]

I guess what it boils down to is that civilians view truth as objective.

But when you have to actually prove something, you learn that truth -- what really happened, who really said what and what did they say, and lawdy mercy what did they mean or intend when they said it or did it -- can be quite subjective.

So, when lawdogs are confronted with someone asserting they possess the objective truth, or the converse, an objective lie, they tend to go skeptical:

And proving it can be such a pain in the ass, that if it is not really material to anything, no one is going to bother actually proving it.  Nevertheless, credibility is on trial at all times and too many non-credible assertions, or even a single whopper, can ruin a case.

It's similar with ethics.  Civilians view them in some Aristotelian sense of greatest public and private good.

But it has been determined ages ago -- at least in those jurisdictions employing the adversarial system -- that the highest public and private good occurs when attorneys' first duty is to their client in an adversarial system -- the one that filters through all that subjectivity in an effort to find the closest facsimile to objective truth -- and generally not to other institutions, although there are limits to that.

Edited January 29 by TwiceHorn

[Bozo_Casanova 26449]

18 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I guess what it boils down to is that civilians view truth as objective.

But when you have to actually prove something, you learn that truth -- what really happened, who really said what and what did they say, and lawdy mercy what did they mean or intend when they said it or did it -- can be quite subjective.

So, when lawdogs are confronted with someone asserting they possess the objective truth, or the converse, an objective lie, they tend to go skeptical:

And proving it can be such a pain in the ass, that if it is not really material to anything, no one is going to bother actually proving it.  Nevertheless, credibility is on trial at all times and too many non-credible assertions, or even a single whopper, can ruin a case.

It's similar with ethics.  Civilians view them in some Aristotelian sense of greatest public and private good.

But it has been determined ages ago -- at least in those jurisdictions employing the adversarial system -- that the highest public and private good occurs when attorneys' first duty is to their client in an adversarial system -- the one that filters through all that subjectivity in an effort to find the closest facsimile to objective truth -- and generally not to other institutions, although there are limits to that.

Fine. All of that presumes good faith conduct within respect for the rules. 
You can strawman “first duty to the client” all day long and it still won’t obviate a lawyer’s duties to judges, courts, each other and their own professional integrity. 

And by the way- I know it must seem like I’ve got some kind of axe to grind uniquely about lawyers, and I really don’t- it just happens to be that this is a political forum and the somewhat analogous ethical crisis in medicine isn’t pushing this country along towards a violent political calamity and social collapse. 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2830]

12 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Fine. All of that presumes good faith conduct within respect for the rules. 

No it doesn't.  It asks that the parties engage in good faith but presumes there will be fuck ups.  And there are usually remedies for those fuck ups.

As in every other human endeavor.

You are holding a system designed to try its best to resolve the most difficult conflicts of opposing views of the truth and/or justice by pretending there is a magic eight ball that will come up with the same result in the separate hands of two lawyers and a fact finder.

 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2830]

24 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

You can strawman “first duty to the client” all day long and it still won’t obviate a lawyer’s duties to judges, courts, each other and their own professional integrity. 

Give us an example where two lawyers represent clients with two different versions of the truth, and these duties you refer to would lead to a determination before a jury/judge gets to hear the case presented.

Edited January 29 by The Original Greaser Bob

[atomheartbevo 89656]

4 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

The orange dumb ass and R party ‘leaders’ are getting their marching orders from putin ….

Ivanka gets them from another European

[Gatorubet 30227]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

You can strawman “first duty to the client” all day long and it still won’t obviate a lawyer’s duties to judges, courts, each other and their own professional integrity. 

Only your brain thinks we are saying what you argue against.  Your heart is in the right place, but you have a temporary case of MAGA brain - a firmly held belief arising from big feels and an acute ignorance of the relevant facts

[tokamak 6424]

Fucking hell. I'd rather watch 100 Trump rallies in a row than read anymore of you assholes arguing about lawyers or fucking whatever. GTFO with that shit.

[TwiceHorn 31453]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

You can strawman “first duty to the client” all day long and it still won’t obviate a lawyer’s duties to judges, courts, each other and their own professional integrity. 

 

Not obviating it at all. Nor straw manning it.

Nor is anyone arguing that there are not flat unethical lawyers or decent lawyers who make ethical fuckups.  Or that it's permissible for lawyers to objectively lie.

But the duty to the client is something that doesn't exist in most other "ethical systems" and it can change the calculus substantially, both in personal ethical behavior and how that behavior is evaluated when called into question by legal authorities.

The simplest and starkest example is when your client tells you where the murder victim is buried.  Conventional ethics dictate that you immediately tell the authorities and the victim's relatives.  Legal ethics say you can't  because of that damned duty to the client.

Nor am I using it to excuse the lapses of Powell, for example.  But I am telling you why the bar isn't going to just blindly accept "I saw her lie on Fox News!  There can be competing considerations that make what appears to be an easy ethical choice complicated.

Similarly, the same complications can make an unethical choice at least arguably ethical.

There's more nuance to it than people want to think or admit.

Edited January 29 by TwiceHorn

[RomaVicta 29907]

13 minutes ago, tokamak said:

Fucking hell. I'd rather watch 100 Trump rallies in a row than read anymore of you assholes arguing about lawyers or fucking whatever. GTFO with that shit.

I haven't read any of the posts about this for several pages now. I appreciate the knowledge that many attorneys provide on this board. The endless arguing over a point and then phrases used to form the argument then a personal grudge match is often too much. 

[henrygandorf 29189]

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I haven't read any of the posts about this for several pages now. I appreciate the knowledge that many attorneys provide on this board. The endless arguing over a point and then phrases used to form the argument then a personal grudge match is often too much. 

when skimming, i only stop to read posts with 3-4+ rep points so the past couple pages were an absolute breeze. 

[South Austin 52484]

2 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

when skimming, i only stop to read posts with 3-4+ rep points so the past couple pages were an absolute breeze. 

Negged.

[SubliminalHorn 6786]

8 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Ivanka gets them from another European

Isn’t he Canadian?

[hookemATL 11723]

15 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Isn’t he Canadian?

My neighbor believes he is the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro. 

[4th&Five 41526]

1 hour ago, hookemATL said:

My neighbor believes he is the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro. 

Or his brother, Dennis. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26449]

@TwiceHorn @The Original Greaser Bob and @Gatorubet

spoilered for those who don’t want to read more bullshit about lawyers.
 

Spoiler

I really don’t want to keep arguing this point. I came back into this because @Gatorubet told a story about attorneys taking part in an effort to bully a witness against their client through an unrelated custody case. 
No one is arguing the duties performed in good faith by good lawyers (or at least I’m not). I’m saying that bad faith and misconduct is not a point of view, and your profession does not do enough to police bad faith, in the same way that medicine does not do enough to police its butchers and charlatans.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited January 29 by Bozo_Casanova

[SimonBolivar 10958]

1 hour ago, hookemATL said:

My neighbor believes he is the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro. 

Aren't we all

[atomheartbevo 89656]

1 hour ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Isn’t he Canadian?

 

Just trying to fuel the hate the Canadians have for the Trump family (which unfortunately affected the US as a whole).

[Bozo_Casanova 26449]

12 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Aren't we all

Jerry Lee Lewis is my real daddy