A story about a pathetic man's downfall [34 Felony Convictions]

[ChiTownDoc 21090]

3 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

As an aside, our local orange cocksuckers sure have been quiet lately. 

They’re waiting for their talking points and in the meantime acting like they’re above any political discourse.  
Except the one guy who popped in to let us know how unfair this is to trump - who he also hates, by the way.  

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

1 hour ago, deech said:

Look I know Trump would sell anything to anyone for personal profit.  But I still didn't think he would sell nuclear secrets to the Saudis.  I consistently fail to comprehend just how far he will go.

There is no bottom. You can never say, “But he’d never do that!” Because the answer is always yes, yes he would. 

[Goredho 17298]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

Who cares what his base thinks?

No one?  But getting rid of Trump isn’t served by all the news bombshells that wind up being duds.  That just strengthens his hold on his base, which strengthens his hold on the GOP which increases the likelihood we get him as President again.

[TXSG8R 3349]

16 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Trump’s next move will be to lean into what he did- it was normal, good, perfect to take the documents and do whatever he did with them, whatever it is. Everyone does it, he’s being treated unfairly. I think a legal theory will take shape like this: if he took classified docs, well, he was president when he left the house, and thus he declassified them by becoming not president with them in his possession. 
He will fundraise off having them. He will make unqualified affirmative support for his actions a litmus test for the party and they will fall in line. 
 

watch. 

His lawyer pushed that yesterday basically. If he has the docs they can’t be classified because he can unilaterally declassify them by thought alone, there is no “ceremony” (her words) necessary for him to follow. If he looks at them and says they aren’t classified, that’s it. It’s absurd, but with this SCOTUS, it will probably work. 

[Celery Man 20870]

20 minutes ago, Gengs1 said:

Pretty much,

-they will go he is the president, he has a right to have those documents 

-so what, he didn’t sell them

-he was just preserving them

-Obama did worse

-Hilary server or hunter laptop

-finally look at the migrants 

 

“I don’t even like Trump. Nobody does, you hysterical lib.”

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

1 hour ago, Goredho said:

I mean, I wouldn't put it past Trump to take nuclear secrets for profit or leverage.  That it is completely within the realm of possibility shows exactly how unfit for office he is, but I think @Ted Lange is right to be dubious.  All we have is a single WaPo article claiming its nuclear codes.  If it turns out to be anything less, the "conspiracy against Trump" gets more entrenched in the minds of his base.  I think it is more likely that he is doing what he does best -- playing the media to his advantage.

There’s a WaPo article that says it’s nuclear codes? Does it claim a source? Because those would be worthless. I’m sure they’re changed regularly and there’s no way whatever codes a President possesses don’t become obsolete the moment he leaves office. At least that had better be how it works. I have to assume it is. 

[TXSG8R 3349]

I’m thinking he kept some PDBs that had either nuclear asset postures or something similar for a potential event like China invading Taiwan, or Russia invading Crimea/Ukraine. I doubt he pulled nuclear weapon plans or anything of the like because that would have raised red flags when it happened because 1) those documents don’t reside in the WH, 2) there would be a paper trail for the request, courier, logging out of one SCIF into another for storage, etc, and 3) the pentagon/archives would have definitely noticed that they weren’t returned at the end of his tenure.  
 

it doesn’t make it any better, our most dangerous secrets are generally pretty benign looking stuff. Asset postures give adversaries a peak into how we would prosecute a major shooting war.  I’m sure his PDBs contain lots of vulnerability assessments for things like our energy grid, cyber, troop readiness during Covid, nuclear weapon and fleet assessments, etc that would provide avenues to exploit. 
 

My best guess is a USSS agent saw Trump showing off something like a PDB to donors/hangers on that contained sensitive material and blew the whistle. The ugly part is that if it’s truly sensitive the gov’t won’t be able to really talk about it because “we cant confirm or deny” is the only valid response you can use to anyone that doesn’t have the clearance and need to know about the info, so he can exploit that soft language. There will be committees in congress that will be able to get the truth, and I fully expect the Rs on those committees to use similar dodgy language or just outright lie to prove cover for that orange fuck. 

[Mdhorn 5908]

8 hours ago, Ted Lange said:

As dumb as Trump is, even worse is the click driven media that enables him.

These POS are racing to be the ones that have THE story.  The more outrageous the more clicks,

Then when it turns out Trump wasn’t on tape selling nuclear secrets to saudi, but did something wholly inappropriate and jail worthy people are like well, it wasn’t as bad as I expected.   Thanks click bait bitches and Louis mecnch and Hugo.   

Really hope you are right on this and makes sense.  But if he committed a crime, he should pay the same cost as everybody in this nation that breaks laws.  Shouldn't matter the severity, ala Al Capone. 

Edit: He's so awful that he makes every scenario fully possible.  

Edited August 12, 2022 by Mdhorn

[TwiceHorn 31169]

12 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

His lawyer pushed that yesterday basically. If he has the docs they can’t be classified because he can unilaterally declassify them by thought alone, there is no “ceremony” (her words) necessary for him to follow. If he looks at them and says they aren’t classified, that’s it. It’s absurd, but with this SCOTUS, it will probably work. 

The one out is 18 USC 739 and a few similar statutes that speak in terms of documents and things "relating to the national defense," which is not tied to their classification status.  It also thankfully speaks in terms of "has reason to know" is valuable to another nation, rather than more absolute terms.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

3 hours ago, Bullneck said:

Why?

Because it’s annoying as fuck?

['stache 21740]

10 hours ago, Bullneck said:

 

 

I could see Kush. He seems ambitious and happy to do high profile work while his buffoon father in law has power. But he also probably wants to do important stuff going forward. Traitors generally don’t make it into legitimate corporate board rooms. He probably wants more options than working for a pillow salesman.

Edited August 12, 2022 by 'stache

[DigglerontheHoof 21015]

6 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

I’m thinking he kept some PDBs that had either nuclear asset postures or something similar for a potential event like China invading Taiwan, or Russia invading Crimea/Ukraine. I doubt he pulled nuclear weapon plans or anything of the like because that would have raised red flags when it happened because 1) those documents don’t reside in the WH, 2) there would be a paper trail for the request, courier, logging out of one SCIF into another for storage, etc, and 3) the pentagon/archives would have definitely noticed that they weren’t returned at the end of his tenure.  
 

it doesn’t make it any better, our most dangerous secrets are generally pretty benign looking stuff. Asset postures give adversaries a peak into how we would prosecute a major shooting war.  I’m sure his PDBs contain lots of vulnerability assessments for things like our energy grid, cyber, troop readiness during Covid, nuclear weapon and fleet assessments, etc that would provide avenues to exploit. 
 

My best guess is a USSS agent saw Trump showing off something like a PDB to donors/hangers on that contained sensitive material and blew the whistle. The ugly part is that if it’s truly sensitive the gov’t won’t be able to really talk about it because “we cant confirm or deny” is the only valid response you can use to anyone that doesn’t have the clearance and need to know about the info, so he can exploit that soft language. There will be committees in congress that will be able to get the truth, and I fully expect the Rs on those committees to use similar dodgy language or just outright lie to prove cover for that orange fuck. 

PDB=President's Daily Briefing?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Correct 

[bolverk 29355]

1 minute ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

PDB=President's Daily Briefing?

yes

[Francisco 2.0 32290]

Maybe this was posted upstream, but FYI:

 

 

 

 

 

Also, signal intelligence may have been at the beach club for all the cool kids to read/take selfies with/make copies of

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Francisco 2.0

[TXSG8R 3349]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The one out is 18 USC 739 and a few similar statutes that speak in terms of documents and things "relating to the national defense," which is not tied to their classification status.  It also thankfully speaks in terms of "has reason to know" is valuable to another nation, rather than more absolute terms.

Need to know is a rule within the classification domain, of which the CINC is all powerful, so I’m not sure it would cause him any issues legally. My concern is there isn’t fully codified rules for classification/declassification at the presidents level, because the constitution expects that person to act in the country’s best interests. Because there is a gray area SCOTUS can play the “not spelled out in the constitution, congress should do something about that” card and dotard walks. 

[HenryJames 65865]

54 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Trump’s next move will be to lean into what he did- it was normal, good, perfect to take the documents and do whatever he did with them, whatever it is. Everyone does it, he’s being treated unfairly. I think a legal theory will take shape like this: if he took classified docs, well, he was president when he left the house, and thus he declassified them by becoming not president with them in his possession. 
He will fundraise off having them. He will make unqualified affirmative support for his actions a litmus test for the party and they will fall in line. 
 

watch. 

 

[aggie08 21371]

People need to get off the nuclear stuff until there's better sourcing. That's not something he could have just called his secretary on his way out the door to box up for him. That's not how that works, even for the President. He doesn't get carte blanche access to any document he wants without going through protocols.

As others have said, falling for the sensationalism plays right into the GOP's hands 

[TwiceHorn 31169]

5 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Maybe this was posted upstream, but FYI:

 

 

 

And, that may be a separation of powers issue.

[Dahobbs 17418]

37 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

His lawyer pushed that yesterday basically. If he has the docs they can’t be classified because he can unilaterally declassify them by thought alone, there is no “ceremony” (her words) necessary for him to follow. If he looks at them and says they aren’t classified, that’s it. It’s absurd, but with this SCOTUS, it will probably work. 

Counterpoint: the current President could always reclassify them and request them back, right?

[DDD Dad 14146]

18 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Because it’s annoying as fuck?

[Francisco 2.0 32290]

2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

People need to get off the nuclear stuff until there's better sourcing. That's not something he could have just called his secretary on his way out the door to box up for him. That's not how that works, even for the President. He doesn't get carte blanche access to any document he wants without going through protocols.

As others have said, falling for the sensationalism plays right into the GOP's hands 

 

Oh, for sure.  But look at who he was putting into position at the Pentagon and within the intelligence community the last year he was in office.  If any of those chucklefucks could somehow get a copy of something sent to the White House for "review" then all bets are off.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Francisco 2.0

[TwiceHorn 31169]

4 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Need to know is a rule within the classification domain, of which the CINC is all powerful, so I’m not sure it would cause him any issues legally. My concern is there isn’t fully codified rules for classification/declassification at the presidents level, because the constitution expects that person to act in the country’s best interests. Because there is a gray area SCOTUS can play the “not spelled out in the constitution, congress should do something about that” card and dotard walks. 

The statute makes it illegal to mishandle information "relating to the national defense."

It doesn't have to be classified, at all.

Part of the state of mind requirement is that the person mishandling the information, "which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." 

So, he can't plead ignorance or deluded belief.

[TXSG8R 3349]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

Counterpoint: the current President could always reclassify them and request them back, right?

In theory, I guess.  The problem is that wouldn’t retroactively make what Trump did illegal if we presume he can magically declassify shit by thought. Classifying something that has been in the public purview is practically impossible. Everyone that has seen the item would be required to sign an NDA for example. Everyone that viewed the item after its reclassified would be breaking the law, which in the age of the internet is, uh, hard to enforce. The Snowden stuff was a nightmare for classification holders, just watching the news opened you up to potential charges (not a joke, we got constant warnings about it). It’s pretty hard to put those horses back in the barn once something is downgraded.  I don’t know of any examples of it happening. 

[TwiceHorn 31169]

I saw a thing, on politifact, I think, confirming that it is largely true that POTUS can classify/declassify at will, with some elaboration by Vladeck.

One of the more interesting questions, raised by Vladeck, is how declassified is it really?  Would Trump or anyone else contend that the information he took/shared is now publicly available via FOIA, for example.  

The "defense information" espionage statutes do deal with this rather nicely, without incorporating or infringing upon the executive right/ability to classify.

[Tuco 5076]

8 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

And, that may be a separation of powers issue.

I would assume that if Congress passed a law on it, the President would have to abide by it.  I mean, who we share information is very much related to treaties and war, two items which are clearly under Congress's control per the Constitution.  

But as someone mentioned earlier, I would be concerned there is a lack of legislation on it simply because you generally assume the President is acting in the best interest of the nation.  It's not something any Congressional faction would expend much effort/capital in trying to get passed. 

[Red Five 40592]

So 5 minutes before Biden was inaugurated, Trump could have declassified anything he wanted and packed it all up and taken it all to Florida? Uh huh.

[TXSG8R 3349]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I saw a thing, on politifact, I think, confirming that it is largely true that POTUS can classify/declassify at will, with some elaboration by Vladeck.

One of the more interesting questions, raised by Vladeck, is how declassified is it really?  Would Trump or anyone else contend that the information he took/shared is now publicly available via FOIA, for example.  

The "defense information" espionage statutes do deal with this rather nicely, without incorporating or infringing upon the executive right/ability to classify.

CINC is the highest classification authority, he absolutely can class/declassify stuff at will. The question is what process that entails.  At a minimum it (should?) requires some paper trail to validate he declassified the info. Many classified items have multiple copies, and those markings need to be downgraded via a formal process. It’s not as simple as using a rubber stamp to cover the original classified marking and calling it good. That Hertling thread touched on it. It can be as simple as a memo for record stating what the documents are, but there has to be something to validate it happening. Otherwise a president can cover any espionage crime, including his own, by saying “I declassified that” upon discovery and we just have to call it good? Its fucking ridiculous that we have to even discuss something like this, but LAW AND ORDER!

[Pato del Muerto 52313]

25 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Maybe this was posted upstream, but FYI:

 

 

 

 

 

Also, signal intelligence may have been at the beach club for all the cool kids to read/take selfies with/make copies of

 

 

 

Re: signals

does that mean the danger is foreign gvts could get intel on how we send/store secure info, or what other nations’ secure info we can crack, or both?

[troph 24544]

the man needs to rot in prison. benedict arnold has nothing on trump. wtf is wrong with republicans.

[Chuckie Finster 22582]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I saw a thing, on politifact, I think, confirming that it is largely true that POTUS can classify/declassify at will, with some elaboration by Vladeck.

One of the more interesting questions, raised by Vladeck, is how declassified is it really?  Would Trump or anyone else contend that the information he took/shared is now publicly available via FOIA, for example.  

The "defense information" espionage statutes do deal with this rather nicely, without incorporating or infringing upon the executive right/ability to classify.

I've said it a million times, but it's insane how many times Trump has highlighted the weaknesses in our legal system and how many laws just assume that the person in power will have a conscience and act in the best interest of the country.

[lemonlime 5503]

The GQP is in too deep.  If they admit now that he's a traitor, they're conceding they stood by and ignored all sorts of treasonous crap, including 1/6 and siding with Putin at Helsinki.  They will double down, because they can't admit they either enabled or were conned during trump's treason over the last 6 years.

[Francisco 2.0 32290]

8 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Re: signals

does that mean the danger is foreign gvts could get intel on how we send/store secure info, or what other nations’ secure info we can crack, or both?

 

Beats me, but there has to be several dangers with this is A) that it would show the US is able to surveil a foreign country at will, B) it would possibly show who within a foreign country is a leak to the US, either willing or not, C) what kind of info the US has gleaned from this source, D) how contradictory a foreign govt is with their public stance towards the US and what their private stance really is, and E) what methodologies that the US is using that may have taken years, maybe even decades, to put into place and refine to the US advantage, and those could be lost forever.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Francisco 2.0

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I've said it a million times, but it's insane how many times Trump has highlighted the weaknesses in our legal system and how many laws just assume that the person in power will have a conscience and act in the best interest of the country.

It's not just one man, though. It's how many laws just assume that the president in power will have a conscience and act in the best interest of the country, but if he doesn't, it's assumed that the supporting party will act in the best interest.

That's the thing with Trump. If he was flying solo, he'd been toast years ago. But he has a support staff in the party that doesn't hold him accountable.

Edited August 12, 2022 by FirstTimeCaller

[mdmost 42747]

[aggie08 21371]

1 minute ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I've said it a million times, but it's insane how many times Trump has highlighted the weaknesses in our legal system and how many laws just assume that the person in power will have a conscience and act in the best interest of the country.

So much this. He's going to get off with a slap on wrist because he operates in the gray areas, where there aren't explicit laws against something, because normal decorum is expected from the Office.

[Js1 85049]

32 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

As others have said, falling for the sensationalism plays right into the GOP's hands 

I'll wait to see when and if the Marshall of the Supreme Court arrests him.  I'm sure it's coming!

[Bozo_Casanova 26218]

41 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

 

Well, there it is.gif

And I would expect that any legal exceptions to that idea w/r/t nuclear or defense info, should they be in play, will be at least appealed to the Supremes as unconstitutional. And with this court I know what answer I expect. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Bozo_Casanova

[Irwin F Fletcher 3550]

His lawyer pushed that yesterday basically. If he has the docs they can’t be classified because he can unilaterally declassify them by thought alone, there is no “ceremony” (her words) necessary for him to follow. If he looks at them and says they aren’t classified, that’s it. It’s absurd, but with this SCOTUS, it will probably work. 

I mean his base will buy this excuse, but in the real world that is not how it plays out when it comes to declassifying information.

[Pig Bellmont 8678]

20 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

CINC is the highest classification authority, he absolutely can class/declassify stuff at will. The question is what process that entails.  At a minimum it (should?) requires some paper trail to validate he declassified the info. Many classified items have multiple copies, and those markings need to be downgraded via a formal process. It’s not as simple as using a rubber stamp to cover the original classified marking and calling it good. That Hertling thread touched on it. It can be as simple as a memo for record stating what the documents are, but there has to be something to validate it happening. Otherwise a president can cover any espionage crime, including his own, by saying “I declassified that” upon discovery and we just have to call it good? Its fucking ridiculous that we have to even discuss something like this, but LAW AND ORDER!

If there’s nuclear info recovered by the DOJ- he’s fucked. Just will not be forgivable 

[SimonBolivar 10895]

Just now, Pig Bellmont said:

Just will not be forgivable 

We'll see

[Pato del Muerto 52313]

“The ultimate declassification authority” means exactly that. He has the authority with no approval process. But authority doesn’t, or at least shouldn’t, ignore the mechanism of declassification.  It should men he can use that machine when and how he chooses, but he still has to use the machine. 

[chainsaw 9831]

1 hour ago, TXSG8R said:

I’m thinking he kept some PDBs that had either nuclear asset postures or something similar for a potential event like China invading Taiwan, or Russia invading Crimea/Ukraine. I doubt he pulled nuclear weapon plans or anything of the like because that would have raised red flags when it happened because 1) those documents don’t reside in the WH, 2) there would be a paper trail for the request, courier, logging out of one SCIF into another for storage, etc, and 3) the pentagon/archives would have definitely noticed that they weren’t returned at the end of his tenure.  
 

it doesn’t make it any better, our most dangerous secrets are generally pretty benign looking stuff. Asset postures give adversaries a peak into how we would prosecute a major shooting war.  I’m sure his PDBs contain lots of vulnerability assessments for things like our energy grid, cyber, troop readiness during Covid, nuclear weapon and fleet assessments, etc that would provide avenues to exploit. 
 

My best guess is a USSS agent saw Trump showing off something like a PDB to donors/hangers on that contained sensitive material and blew the whistle. The ugly part is that if it’s truly sensitive the gov’t won’t be able to really talk about it because “we cant confirm or deny” is the only valid response you can use to anyone that doesn’t have the clearance and need to know about the info, so he can exploit that soft language. There will be committees in congress that will be able to get the truth, and I fully expect the Rs on those committees to use similar dodgy language or just outright lie to prove cover for that orange fuck. 

What if a D on the committee violates the "can't confirm or deny" policy only as to some harmless detail, and then Biden immediately pardons that D. Just enough detail so that R's lose plausible deniability about the severity of Trump's crime but not so much detail that they can't "both sides" it.

[Pato del Muerto 52313]

14 minutes ago, Js1 said:

I'll wait to see when and if the Marshall of the Supreme Court arrests him.  I'm sure it's coming!

Marshall of the Supreme Court died in 1993

[Storm the Field 5270]

13 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

 

This was actually not the low point for Kilmeade last night. 

 

[Gengs1 2583]

No amount of wrongdoing will convince the Rs to drop him, the 30-40% of population will vote for him if he raped their kids in front of them 

[Chopper 17112]

Yeah, so about that waiting for sources to confirm bit...I am now 1000% certain Trump was in illegal possession of highly classified nuclear documents.

 

[Pig Bellmont 8678]

A president cannot steal top secret nuclear secrets when he leaves office. No fucking idiot can legitimately defend that.  I refuse to believe 70million people will line up and vote for that

Just now, Chopper said:

Yeah, so about that waiting for sources to confirm bit...I am now 1000% certain Trump was in illegal possession of highly classified nuclear documents.

 

That’s like a MAGA mad libs. 

[Beau Vine 53949]

1 minute ago, Pig Bellmont said:

A president cannot steal top secret nuclear secrets when he leaves office. No fucking idiot can legitimately defend that.  I refuse to believe 70million people will line up and vote for that

Narrator: They will.

[Dahobbs 17418]

51 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

In theory, I guess.  The problem is that wouldn’t retroactively make what Trump did illegal if we presume he can magically declassify shit by thought. Classifying something that has been in the public purview is practically impossible. Everyone that has seen the item would be required to sign an NDA for example. Everyone that viewed the item after its reclassified would be breaking the law, which in the age of the internet is, uh, hard to enforce. The Snowden stuff was a nightmare for classification holders, just watching the news opened you up to potential charges (not a joke, we got constant warnings about it). It’s pretty hard to put those horses back in the barn once something is downgraded.  I don’t know of any examples of it happening. 

Ok, but the question is about the handling of classified information going forward. Even assuming Trump declassified the information by thought, if Biden reclassified the information and requested Trump return the documents, then it seems to me that Trump's failure to return them at that point would be a violation of the law. Your whole counterfactual about publicly released documents is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant since that didn't happen here. Also, what Twice said. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Dahobbs