The US Capitol has been Breached [Action and Developing stories]

[tantric superman 4667]

31 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

The Hispanic guys I know from the Valley (I’ll even include Corpus) are a hell of a lot more country (hunt and fish) than any Cavender’s catalog cowboy from a Houston/Dallas suburb I ever met in college.

Yep.  I went to school in the northwest side of San Antonio, long ago, and the non-city hispanics west of town who I knew fit this model.

[Js1 85338]

20 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Fair to say the driving reasons for higher than average R performance with valley Hispanics is a combination of abortion issue and immigration (our family did it the right way, everyone should have to)?

i know there was talk about them relating to the Trump machismo but that doesn’t extend to Abbott or Cruz, though Cruz’ last name is Cruz. 

Texas Hispanics in the valley are generally pro-police (a lot of them either are or have family who are police) and against lockdowns because they are disproportionately affected by service and retail jobs closing. 

So of course, right or wrong, Democrats became the party of defund the police and lockdowns. Trump had a unique ability to project that onto Biden, who neither supported defund the police and was not advocating for strict lockdowns. 

[tx 3 putt 76958]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Two of my best friends from college are Hispanic guys from Brownsville and Corpus (since you included it) and both are hardcore liberals. They both went to UT though. I don’t know. I can’t figure out the Valley. 

corpus still has Latinos for Trump billboards up

[BradInATX 9208]

The Valley can be weird. It’s represented by a few conservative dems at various levels but they didn’t turn out at all for Biden. That was not an Election Day surprise, that info was always out there for underperforming Hilldawg in the run up. However, the utes in the region love Bernie, and almost put Jessica Cisneros over the finish line in her primary against Cuellar and Lucio went to a runoff in the state senate. Those are two heavy hitters in the area. Young vs old divide seems pretty big on social issues, but the poster above (89) has better insight.
The Hispanic guys I know from the Valley (I’ll even include Corpus) are a hell of a lot more country (hunt and fish) than any Cavender’s catalog cowboy from a Houston/Dallas suburb I ever met in college.
 
 

Nice post. Dems underestimate the truck driving PFG shirt wearing Hispanic population in Texas. They seem to either not understand its existence or just don't have a good grasp of what drives that population.

The problem is that demographic is basically lost to Dems. They aren't getting them back. At least not the ones I know.

That plus the incoming Republican messaging shift towards the "party of the people" spell trouble ahead for Texas Dems. I don't think this state will ever be purple. It's a mirage. The only way to make it purple or blue would be to abandon all gun issues which won't happen.

[tx 3 putt 76958]

1 hour ago, StassneyHorn said:

I got curious about the numbers in Zapata and looked at the SoS site. I think the bigger takeaway is what the hell is it going to take to motivate people in Zapata County to vote. 46% rate, the delta was a little over 200 votes.

 

zapata county is very small and insignificant. you focus on hilago and cameron, that's the traditional RGV power base. show the old families some love, reach out to the middle class / nuevo 'rich'.  starr county will follow along. 

[Js1 85338]

20 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Nice post. Dems underestimate the truck driving PFG shirt wearing Hispanic population in Texas. They seem to either not understand its existence or just don't have a good grasp of what drives that population.

The problem is that demographic is basically lost to Dems. They aren't getting them back. At least not the ones I know.

That plus the incoming Republican messaging shift towards the "party of the people" spell trouble ahead for Texas Dems. I don't think this state will ever be purple. It's a mirage. The only way to make it purple or blue would be to abandon all gun issues which won't happen.

I’m not above bribing. Biden’s tax plan to boost the child tax credit and childcare credit and make both fully refundable by just sending a check up front to eligible families is genius. 

[89Horn 1514]

2 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Fair to say the driving reasons for higher than average R performance with valley Hispanics is a combination of abortion issue and immigration (our family did it the right way, everyone should have to)?

i know there was talk about them relating to the Trump machismo but that doesn’t extend to Abbott or Cruz, though Cruz’ last name is Cruz. 

 

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Texas Hispanics in the valley are generally pro-police (a lot of them either are or have family who are police) and against lockdowns because they are disproportionately affected by service and retail jobs closing. 

So of course, right or wrong, Democrats became the party of defund the police and lockdowns. Trump had a unique ability to project that onto Biden, who neither supported defund the police and was not advocating for strict lockdowns. 

Both of these.  For years going back, lots of Hispanics could be one issue voters - anti-abortion Catholics.  I know older Hispanics that just didn't vote at for President because the Dem candidates were pro choice. 

Also, many Valley Mexicans really don't like the rich Mexicans from Monterrey and Cuidad Mexico DF that have bought up a lot of South Padre and other nicer places down there and look down on the locals.  The Valley locals also don't like the poors coming across from the countries south of the border too.  These sentiments fall in line with the Trump scare tactics that married well with strong security, pro-police, anti-immigration, America first positions. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by 89Horn

[wildcat09 29354]

16 hours ago, 89Horn said:

See, this is the type of thinking the Democrats have exhibited for a number of years and it's worrying.  It's oversimplification and short-sighted.  A bad showing in one election just had to be an anomaly.  It's not just one election.  2018 mid-term elections - Abbott got 44% of the vote in Cameron county and even Cruz got 37%.  That should not happen and taking that Hispanic vote in the valley in particular for granted is dangerous. 

Full disclosure, I'm a south Texas Hispanic that typically votes Democratic.  I know many hispanic males in south Texas that are and have been for a while fervently red supporting voters, and it is mind boggling.  All I'm saying is that it is very short-sighted to just generally assume valley hispanics in particular are shoe in to vote Democratic.

Good post. It's incredibly frustrating seeing Democrats underestimate the GOP time after time. This fucking party has just been assuming that demographics will shift Texas blue for twenty years now, because that's easier than doing actual fucking politics.

[Born to Run 6569]

I thought the same thing too, but then Trump still won in 2020 by 630,000 votes.  Did you all see how Trump did with hispanics in the Valley?  He actually won Zapata county.  He got 41% of the vote in Hidalgo county and 43% in Cameron county.  Those are massive swings from 2016 and before in counties that are at or less than 10% white.  Maybe the state does really turn purple at some point, but Dems need to avoid the thinking that hispanics will reliably be 80% on the blue side.
I tend to agree with the influx of west coast transplants affecting the Texas electorate going forward, but I also think that may be an over generalization.   Californians in particular are not coming to Texas just to escape harsh economic conditions but some are also coming to get away from what they perceive as left leaning politics. 

And lower taxes. I've had 4 clients in the last year that moved here from Cali, 2 were hardcore conservative with Fox on all day, 1 definetly bashed Cali policies and taxes, 1 I have no idea.
I'm in higher end residential construction so my clients tend to be more conservative or very concerned about tax rates, but point being it's not a purely blue influx of voters from out of state.

[hayden_horn 11362]

18 hours ago, 89Horn said:

See, this is the type of thinking the Democrats have exhibited for a number of years and it's worrying.  It's oversimplification and short-sighted.  A bad showing in one election just had to be an anomaly.  It's not just one election.  2018 mid-term elections - Abbott got 44% of the vote in Cameron county and even Cruz got 37%.  That should not happen and taking that Hispanic vote in the valley in particular for granted is dangerous. 

Full disclosure, I'm a south Texas Hispanic that typically votes Democratic.  I know many hispanic males in south Texas that are and have been for a while fervently red supporting voters, and it is mind boggling.  All I'm saying is that it is very short-sighted to just generally assume valley hispanics in particular are shoe in to vote Democratic.

this is a larger writ problem with the democratic party, but it has razor sharp accuracy for the texas democrats. they are not organized, they have no idea how to campaign, they don't seem to understand simple data, and, most grievously, they take their voters for granted. 

i can highlight two campaigns: wendy davis and mj hegar. neither actually ran a coherent campaign. as i'm no democratic insider, i don't know if that has more to do with them or the texas democratic machine, but either way, it's borderline unforgivable. i'm not saying texas is a blue state with a democratic voter problem, necessarily, but the potential is there with some analysis and targeted messaging. 

the question seems to be right now: why did trump do so well in the valley when democrats should have that shit on lockdown?

that's the wrong fucking question.

the question should be: how do we resonate amongst the voters we purport to represent?

step one is to fucking represent them. talk to them. 

and this is not solely for the valley. it's the one thing beto brought to the forefront. go talk to people. represent THEM. listen to THEM. it's THEIR votes you want. go get those votes. because they sure as hell ain't gonna come to you, despite your thinking that you somehow deserve them.

[Born to Run 6569]

this is a larger writ problem with the democratic party, but it has razor sharp accuracy for the texas democrats. they are not organized, they have no idea how to campaign, they don't seem to understand simple data, and, most grievously, they take their voters for granted. 
i can highlight two campaigns: wendy davis and mj hegar. neither actually ran a coherent campaign. as i'm no democratic insider, i don't know if that has more to do with them or the texas democratic machine, but either way, it's borderline unforgivable. i'm not saying texas is a blue state with a democratic voter problem, necessarily, but the potential is there with some analysis and targeted messaging. 
the question seems to be right now: why did trump do so well in the valley when democrats should have that shit on lockdown?
that's the wrong fucking question.
the question should be: how do we resonate amongst the voters we purport to represent?
step one is to fucking represent them. talk to them. 
and this is not solely for the valley. it's the one thing beto brought to the forefront. go talk to people. represent THEM. listen to THEM. it's THEIR votes you want. go get those votes. because they sure as hell ain't gonna come to you, despite your thinking that you somehow deserve them.

Yeah Beto was making some ground until the "hell yeah I'm taking your guns" statement set the party back. That's turns off a big chunk of Latinos who spend weekends at the ranch shooting guns, even some of my painters pitch in and buy modest rural properties to drink beer and shoot guns like any good redneck. Guns are the only political thing they really know about and it's a big deal to them.

I went to a bunch of Beto's town halls in small communities and the consensus I got from attendees was: there are plenty of democrats here, they just never have anyone to vote for and there is basically no local political structure at all.

We need the Democratic Party to get better candidates, have a stronger bench, a real party infrastructure, ground game, and messaging if want to even consider turning Texas Blue. Basically a complete overhaul.

And stop talking about banning guns. You can work on that once you have power. Republicans don't run on bankrupting Social Security even if that's the goal.

[Brisketexan 105140]

10 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

Yeah Beto was making some ground until the "hell yeah I'm taking your guns" statement set the party back. That's turns off a big chunk of Latinos who spend weekends at the ranch shooting guns, even some of my painters pitch in and buy modest rural properties to drink beer and shoot guns like any good redneck. Guns are the only political thing they really know about and it's a big deal to them.

I went to a bunch of Beto's town halls in small communities and the consensus I got from attendees was: there are plenty of democrats here, they just never have anyone to vote for and there is basically no local political structure at all.

We need the Democratic Party to get better candidates, have a stronger bench, a real party infrastructure, ground game, and messaging if want to even consider turning Texas Blue. Basically a complete overhaul.

And stop talking about banning guns. You can work on that once you have power. Republicans don't run on bankrupting Social Security even if that's the goal.

I know a metric shit-ton of Texans like me -- folks who grew up around guns, own a bunch, and regularly shoot.  We love our guns.  We believe in the 2nd Amendment.  And we also believe that we need to look at some reasonable measures that both respect the 2nd Amendment and implement meaningful reform around how we treat guns in this society.

Guns are a deadly serious tool, not a prop to act tough.  Reasonable regulation of dangerous weapons is something we should discuss.  Maybe we should look at some approaches for keeping deadly weapons out of the hands of people who have professed a desire to commit crimes with them.  But rest assured, the guns in my gun safe are going to be fine staying there -- nobody is coming to get them.  We can do both -- be gun owners and be RESPONSIBLE gun owners, who are responsible participants in a productive society.

That's how I was raised.  Shit, that was the messaging of the NRA when I was a young member.  How about "make our gun culture sensible again" as a motto?  Beto, or the next iteration, should absolutely run ads showing him with a firearm, using it competently and comfortably.  It would be best if it was actually his firearm.  That would go a long way towards convincing the bulk of Texas gun owners "I'm one of you -- I'm not turning loose the gov't to come grab your guns or mine.  But I'm going to do work to make our schools and public places safer.  I think the responsible gun owners of Texas are willing to do that with me."  Yeah, the wingnut 2nd Amendment crowd will freak out and demonstrate outside your office with AR's strapped on.  Then you film yourself coming out to talk to them, and you say out loud for the camera to catch "I'm a real Texan -- I don't need to carry my gun to feel like a man and have a hard conversation."  Again, you piss off the wingnuts, but most everyone else, including the responsible gun owners, will nod their heads.

Fuck, Ann Richards knew enough that she needed to do a dove hunting photo op.

[89Horn 1514]

3 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

the question seems to be right now: why did trump do so well in the valley when democrats should have that shit on lockdown?

that's the wrong fucking question.

the question should be: how do we resonate amongst the voters we purport to represent?

step one is to fucking represent them. talk to them. 

and this is not solely for the valley. it's the one thing beto brought to the forefront. go talk to people. represent THEM. listen to THEM. it's THEIR votes you want. go get those votes. because they sure as hell ain't gonna come to you, despite your thinking that you somehow deserve them.

A-fucking-men and also to Born to Run's post above.  In my earlier post, I meant to mention that these Democratic party issues are not just Texas, Valley hispanic issues.  This is happening elsewhere, like the mid-west blue wall.  Blue collar Democrats with more centrist middle-America problems and views are increasingly becoming disillusioned with the party as they don't appear to have commonality with the Bernie/AOC-squad/Beto progressives pulling it further left. Trump/Republicans, like Reagan before, have successfully pounced on that and are making inroads.  Yes, blue collars have left the party before and come back with a message that they were being heard when Clinton and to a lesser extent Obama gathered back vestiges of Reagan Democrats.  Maybe I'm wrong, but the shift now appears to be a bit more deep seated for a lot of the reasons being discussed here.

I think its just lazy and offensive for the Dems to employ a strategy for victory on an assumption of counting on the urban city vote and changing demographics (minority-majorities) while blue collars drift away.  It's like the party is saying to its former base "you just need to adapt to the new us.  we know what's best for you."  It's also lazy for the party to say fuck it we can offset any losses with gains in AZ, VA, NV and GA that may or may not carry forward.  I know its hard, but Dems need to get structured and do the work to reach out to and represent the values of bettering all of America, including all the blocks in the party.  I think Biden as a centrist gets it and wants to work at it, but I'm not so sure that the party as a whole believes or wants to work at it. 

Edit:  Just saw Brisketexan's post which I agree with on how the gun messaging can be done to advocate for responsible gun measures.  I still own rifles including my first lever action Winchester 9422 and my grandfather's old Model 94 30-30 and I strongly believe in a measured approached to responsible gun ownership.  If Texas Dems would just ease the message, I think it could make a difference. 

But, shit, the more I read back my post I realize I'm just a moderate that's put off by the far ends of both sides of the spectrum.  Maybe I'm the one with the problem!

Edited January 25, 2021 by 89Horn

[atomheartbevo 89670]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I know a metric shit-ton of Texans like me -- folks who grew up around guns, own a bunch, and regularly shoot.  We love our guns.  We believe in the 2nd Amendment.  And we also believe that we need to look at some reasonable measures that both respect the 2nd Amendment and implement meaningful reform around how we treat guns in this society.

If we strengthened our red flag laws, and mental illness/healthcare systems, it would solve a helluva lot of the problems with guns.

We can't do anything about somebody who has no problems other than a small dick and so he has to open carry his rifle around while wearing body armor.

But if we took a look at red flag laws, beefed up her mental healthcare systems, etc., we could cut down on actual mass shootings, without having to restrict existing legal gun ownership.  I and others have posted in other threads about how many of the mass shooters would have been stymied by a few more barriers, how many of those mass shooters were known to their local mental healthcare officials, how they were giving off red flags well in advance, how they should not have had access to firearms, either in the household, or being able to purchase, etc.

The problem is if a Republican got up there and talked about red flag laws and mental healthcare, too many Republican voters might think the politician was talking about them, and taking their guns.

There's some irony that the little Capitol insurrection could very well prevent quite a few mentally ill types from owning firearms going forward.

Edited January 25, 2021 by atomheartbevo

[Born to Run 6569]

I know a metric shit-ton of Texans like me -- folks who grew up around guns, own a bunch, and regularly shoot.  We love our guns.  We believe in the 2nd Amendment.  And we also believe that we need to look at some reasonable measures that both respect the 2nd Amendment and implement meaningful reform around how we treat guns in this society.
Guns are a deadly serious tool, not a prop to act tough.  Reasonable regulation of dangerous weapons is something we should discuss.  Maybe we should look at some approaches for keeping deadly weapons out of the hands of people who have professed a desire to commit crimes with them.  But rest assured, the guns in my gun safe are going to be fine staying there -- nobody is coming to get them.  We can do both -- be gun owners and be RESPONSIBLE gun owners, who are responsible participants in a productive society.
That's how I was raised.  Shit, that was the messaging of the NRA when I was a young member.  How about "make our gun culture sensible again" as a motto?  Beto, or the next iteration, should absolutely run ads showing him with a firearm, using it competently and comfortably.  It would be best if it was actually his firearm.  That would go a long way towards convincing the bulk of Texas gun owners "I'm one of you -- I'm not turning loose the gov't to come grab your guns or mine.  But I'm going to do work to make our schools and public places safer.  I think the responsible gun owners of Texas are willing to do that with me."  Yeah, the wingnut 2nd Amendment crowd will freak out and demonstrate outside your office with AR's strapped on.  Then you film yourself coming out to talk to them, and you say out loud for the camera to catch "I'm a real Texan -- I don't need to carry my gun to feel like a man and have a hard conversation."  Again, you piss off the wingnuts, but most everyone else, including the responsible gun owners, will nod their heads.
Fuck, Ann Richards knew enough that she needed to do a dove hunting photo op.

Agreed on all points. I hunt and shoot for fun.
And I'm all for gun reform. I'm cool with banning ARs and open carry to appease cosplaying little dick fuckheads. We went way too far since the 90s.

Gov Ann posed with a shotgun. And won.

Beto outright said he's coming for your guns. Lost, and he'd lose in Texas again.

Messaging and tact matter.
The right loves to argue any policy of the libs will lead to a slippery slope avalanche thus leading to absurd conclusions. "Confiscation of all gun. Abortion in the streets. Free luxury cars to the poor!!!!"
They do it because that's how They operate in bad faith. And because it works.

You run on modest gun reform at best, Then once you have power you do more after the next tragedy when outcry is greatest.

Beto should have done a dove or quail hunt in 2018, and maybe a redfish trip to lower laguna. You can be former Gen x punk rocker/ skater and also enjoy more conventional Texas hobbies. I should know.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Beto said the gun comments after the El Paso shooting when he was running for President, not during the Senate race.

He was much more measured in his gun rhetoric before a racist maniac went hunting for brown people in his hometown.

[Born to Run 6569]

Beto said the gun comments after the El Paso shooting when he was running for President, not during the Senate race.

He was much more measured in his gun rhetoric before a racist maniac went hunting for brown people in his hometown.

He was pretty firm on serious gun control at town halls in 2018 including reducing mag capacity and "looking into other restrictions."

I realize The televised comment was in the presidential primaries, and absolutely admire his passion and conviction, the love for his hometown and the trauma of all the grief he witnessed, but it was political suicide.

Cruz got plenty of love for the stupid bacon gun barrel bullshit but it wins over a lot of single issue voters and Texas is lousy with gun nuts

[staboner 4969]

hispanic valley chatter not going away

[wildcat09 29354]

1 hour ago, 89Horn said:

A-fucking-men and also to Born to Run's post above.  In my earlier post, I meant to mention that these Democratic party issues are not just Texas, Valley hispanic issues.  This is happening elsewhere, like the mid-west blue wall.  Blue collar Democrats with more centrist middle-America problems and views are increasingly becoming disillusioned with the party as they don't appear to have commonality with the Bernie/AOC-squad/Beto progressives pulling it further left. Trump/Republicans, like Reagan before, have successfully pounced on that and are making inroads.  Yes, blue collars have left the party before and come back with a message that they were being heard when Clinton and to a lesser extent Obama gathered back vestiges of Reagan Democrats.  Maybe I'm wrong, but the shift now appears to be a bit more deep seated for a lot of the reasons being discussed here.

I think its just lazy and offensive for the Dems to employ a strategy for victory on an assumption of counting on the urban city vote and changing demographics (minority-majorities) while blue collars drift away.  It's like the party is saying to its former base "you just need to adapt to the new us.  we know what's best for you."  It's also lazy for the party to say fuck it we can offset any losses with gains in AZ, VA, NV and GA that may or may not carry forward.  I know its hard, but Dems need to get structured and do the work to reach out to and represent the values of bettering all of America, including all the blocks in the party.  I think Biden as a centrist gets it and wants to work at it, but I'm not so sure that the party as a whole believes or wants to work at it. 

Edit:  Just saw Brisketexan's post which I agree with on how the gun messaging can be done to advocate for responsible gun measures.  I still own rifles including my first lever action Winchester 9422 and my grandfather's old Model 94 30-30 and I strongly believe in a measured approached to responsible gun ownership.  If Texas Dems would just ease the message, I think it could make a difference. 

But, shit, the more I read back my post I realize I'm just a moderate that's put off by the far ends of both sides of the spectrum.  Maybe I'm the one with the problem!

The larger point about the party needing to actually speak to everyone is correct, but it's wrong to blame the party's failure to do so on Bernie/AOC. Hell, they're constantly talking about the need to talk to all Americans and AOC spent inauguration day with striking workers. They're as pro-labor as it gets in the party and it's not helpful to single them out as indicative of the problem. Certainly someone who looks like Fetterman would make for a better candidate in Ohio than AOC or Bernie because identity matters, but we need candidates with their commitment to labor to regain white working class votes. Clinton and the centrist Dems are the ones who betrayed the traditional union voter base to curry favor with Wall Street donors. They're not going to help the party regain trust of union workers.

[B00M 6416]

12 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

Messaging and tact matter.
The right loves to argue any policy of the libs will lead to a slippery slope avalanche thus leading to absurd conclusions. "Confiscation of all gun. Abortion in the streets. Free luxury cars to the poor!!!!"
They do it because that's how They operate in bad faith. And because it works.

You run on modest gun reform at best, Then once you have power you do more after the next tragedy when outcry is greatest.
 

Wouldn't downplaying your intentions during the campaign and then not letting a good tragedy go to waste just feed into the slippery slope argument that as you say, works?

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

On 1/24/2021 at 1:05 PM, Lobo said:

I know the Nats are wanting to do a tribute to those Capitol Police officers wounded, killed, or performed heroically during the siege.  So cue the fucking idiots.

We took a family vacation to DC in November, 2019, to spend a few days in the Smithsonian, and we got to town right at the tail end of the World Series celebration parade.

The energy on the mall was pretty wild -- there were a handful of NRA/ MAGA types huddled over by the Grant statue (pretty sure Grant would not have approved), and the Ecuadorian elite were set up in the hundreds at the other end of the mall (what Lincoln might have made of a bunch of rich ladrones from South America chanting "Evo, pendejo!" is anyone's guess) and in between were hundreds of thousands of black and hispanic Washingtonians feeling tremendous civic pride, and blaring as many speakers as they could in the direction of the White House, the dayglo resident of which was in Florida, at the time, for some odd reason.

Yeah, I would expect the Nats to do the right thing. Hell, Eugene Goodman throwing out the first pitch at some point is a virtual certainty.

[tx 3 putt 76958]

28 minutes ago, staboner said:

Hispanic valley chatter not going away

 

it's a fascinating place 

Edited January 25, 2021 by tx 3 putt

[tx 3 putt 76958]

22 hours ago, 89Horn said:

 

Both of these.  For years going back, lots of Hispanics could be one issue voters - anti-abortion Catholics.  I know older Hispanics that just didn't vote at for President because the Dem candidates were pro choice. 

Also, many Valley Mexicans really don't like the rich Mexicans from Monterrey and Cuidad Mexico DF that have bought up a lot of South Padre and other nicer places down there and look down on the locals.  The Valley locals also don't like the poors coming across from the countries south of the border too.  These sentiments fall in line with the Trump scare tactics that married well with strong security, pro-police, anti-immigration, America first positions. 

the traditional political machines down there have held on to power for too long. now their children and grandchildren are running for office. too many are 'locked' out of the decision making process. 

some stories I would love to share but federal election laws and what not. it's much more interesting the people / orgs / money behind those political machines. 

[Hookah Horns 3083]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I know a metric shit-ton of Texans like me -- folks who grew up around guns, own a bunch, and regularly shoot.  We love our guns.  We believe in the 2nd Amendment.  And we also believe that we need to look at some reasonable measures that both respect the 2nd Amendment and implement meaningful reform around how we treat guns in this society.

Guns are a deadly serious tool, not a prop to act tough.  Reasonable regulation of dangerous weapons is something we should discuss.  Maybe we should look at some approaches for keeping deadly weapons out of the hands of people who have professed a desire to commit crimes with them.  But rest assured, the guns in my gun safe are going to be fine staying there -- nobody is coming to get them.  We can do both -- be gun owners and be RESPONSIBLE gun owners, who are responsible participants in a productive society.

That's how I was raised.  Shit, that was the messaging of the NRA when I was a young member.  How about "make our gun culture sensible again" as a motto?  Beto, or the next iteration, should absolutely run ads showing him with a firearm, using it competently and comfortably.  It would be best if it was actually his firearm.  That would go a long way towards convincing the bulk of Texas gun owners "I'm one of you -- I'm not turning loose the gov't to come grab your guns or mine.  But I'm going to do work to make our schools and public places safer.  I think the responsible gun owners of Texas are willing to do that with me."  Yeah, the wingnut 2nd Amendment crowd will freak out and demonstrate outside your office with AR's strapped on.  Then you film yourself coming out to talk to them, and you say out loud for the camera to catch "I'm a real Texan -- I don't need to carry my gun to feel like a man and have a hard conversation."  Again, you piss off the wingnuts, but most everyone else, including the responsible gun owners, will nod their heads.

Fuck, Ann Richards knew enough that she needed to do a dove hunting photo op.

It's really fucking annoying how many people believe any and all gun regulation = govt coming to collect their guns and ban the sale of guns. Someone needs to explain the 2nd amendment to these idiots in addition to how the constitution works/what it would take to repeal it. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26461]

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

Beto said the gun comments after the El Paso shooting when he was running for President, not during the Senate race.

He was much more measured in his gun rhetoric before a racist maniac went hunting for brown people in his hometown.

Yep, but it still cost him. 

 

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I know a metric shit-ton of Texans like me -- folks who grew up around guns, own a bunch, and regularly shoot.  We love our guns.  We believe in the 2nd Amendment.  And we also believe that we need to look at some reasonable measures that both respect the 2nd Amendment and implement meaningful reform around how we treat guns in this society.

Guns are a deadly serious tool, not a prop to act tough.  Reasonable regulation of dangerous weapons is something we should discuss.  Maybe we should look at some approaches for keeping deadly weapons out of the hands of people who have professed a desire to commit crimes with them.  But rest assured, the guns in my gun safe are going to be fine staying there -- nobody is coming to get them.  We can do both -- be gun owners and be RESPONSIBLE gun owners, who are responsible participants in a productive society.

That's how I was raised.  Shit, that was the messaging of the NRA when I was a young member.  How about "make our gun culture sensible again" as a motto?  Beto, or the next iteration, should absolutely run ads showing him with a firearm, using it competently and comfortably.  It would be best if it was actually his firearm.  That would go a long way towards convincing the bulk of Texas gun owners "I'm one of you -- I'm not turning loose the gov't to come grab your guns or mine.  But I'm going to do work to make our schools and public places safer.  I think the responsible gun owners of Texas are willing to do that with me."  Yeah, the wingnut 2nd Amendment crowd will freak out and demonstrate outside your office with AR's strapped on.  Then you film yourself coming out to talk to them, and you say out loud for the camera to catch "I'm a real Texan -- I don't need to carry my gun to feel like a man and have a hard conversation."  Again, you piss off the wingnuts, but most everyone else, including the responsible gun owners, will nod their heads.

Fuck, Ann Richards knew enough that she needed to do a dove hunting photo op.

Agree 100%. Great post.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Bozo_Casanova

[B00M 6416]

23 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

It's really fucking annoying how many people believe any and all gun regulation = govt coming to collect their guns and ban the sale of guns. 

So in the infamous Beto debate response he starts out by talking about ammunition and then points to the AR15 and AK47 mandatory buy-back. He's clearly talking about collecting some of your guns and some ammunitions and banning their future sales. The biggest issue gun owners have with this is there's nothing particularly mechanically unique about the AR15, and banning ammunitions is a backdoor way to banning lots of firearms at once without saying as much.

I agree reform is needed but being clear about the scope is critical.

This has got to be off topic so I'll hang up and listen.

[Biff Tannen 45685]

7 minutes ago, B00M said:

banning ammunitions is a backdoor way to banning lots of firearms at once without saying as much.

[Dr. Teeth 5844]

 

[Biff Tannen 45685]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Teeth said:

 

Is it still a question that this act of sedition was set up and then activated by the president?  To anyone with a functioning brain that watched that day?

[Grandioso 2592]

"If you don't do something, you're not gonna have a country anymore," said the President, addressing alleged election fraud and the collapse of democracy itself to tens of thousands of angry supporters at a professionally financed and organized "Stop the Steal" rally, on a date that MAGAnon/QTwitter insisted was the reckoning day.

If not to subvert democracy itself, what was the point of the rally?

But it is hilarious that Trump said he was going to march to the capital with them, knowing this was 100% a lie, and then bailed to watch it at home on his TV. And maybe .01% of his supporters even got mad about that. Just utter cucks. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Grandioso

[Hookah Horns 3083]

7 hours ago, B00M said:

So in the infamous Beto debate response he starts out by talking about ammunition and then points to the AR15 and AK47 mandatory buy-back. He's clearly talking about collecting some of your guns and some ammunitions and banning their future sales. The biggest issue gun owners have with this is there's nothing particularly mechanically unique about the AR15, and banning ammunitions is a backdoor way to banning lots of firearms at once without saying as much.

I agree reform is needed but being clear about the scope is critical.

This has got to be off topic so I'll hang up and listen.

If there's nothing particularly unique about AR-15s, then what's the big deal about banning them? 

I'm being facetious, but only mostly so. I'm not a gun person at all, so I struggle to understand why a ban of one type - that's not particularly unique - would make people lose their shit. It seems to me that it always ends up at a "slippery slope" argument. 

[956 Worldwide 34715]

9 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

it's a fascinating place 

I'd also say it's a place to look if you want to start figuring out how a changing Texas is going to look.  

It's easy to say "oh, the big metro areas are going to produce a lot of super-progressive, woke Latinos."  And in some cases, that's true, I think the children of recent immigrants coming out of real immigrant enclaves are going to be more progressive.

But guess what, that's not the only part of Texas that's changing.  All those red suburbs around Houston and Dallas are getting browner, too.  And a lot of those Mexican-Americans are going to be closer in political/cultural thought to the Valley as opposed to the Houston barrio. The kids are going to play football at least as much as soccer. They're not going to be on board for gross racism, but they aren't going to have chips on their shoulder and feel oppressed.  They're going to be different from their gringo neighbors and co-workers, but they're going to have a lot in common, too. 

I am not at all surprised that the Valley broke a bit harder for Trump or that Republicans have been making inroad, and I don't buy the "he's the luchador" candidate, so no worries.  The Dems there have an entrenched power machine for a lot of reasons, but there's not some huge natural affinity for the national platform.  Simple fact is that the average Jose from Harlingen, Edinburg, or Edcouch lives and acts and thinks a lot more like the average Joe from Abilene, Lubbock, or Hobbs than he does a Bay Area/Acela corridor progressive. 

[GW Hayduke 1953]

7 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

If there's nothing particularly unique about AR-15s, then what's the big deal about banning them? 

I'm being facetious, but only mostly so. I'm not a gun person at all, so I struggle to understand why a ban of one type - that's not particularly unique - would make people lose their shit. It seems to me that it always ends up at a "slippery slope" argument. 

I don't give a fuck about the slippery slope argument. Society heavily regulates all kinds of things - explosives, vehicles, chemicals, etc. - to minimize harm.  The people who need those potentially dangerous things still have access to them.  It shouldn't be a big deal to heavily regulate semi-auto firearms, except many have entangled their identity to them and a political party shamefully decided to take advantage.  The US is in an overall very sad and irresponsible place. 

I don't have a lot a sympathy for the stance that firearms confer benefit to a household considering they have been shown to increase suicide rates and homicide rates related to domestic violence.  However, introducing licensing, registration, training and safety requirements may change that.  Plus there isn't a need for semi-auto rifles for home defense (unless an identity formed watching Rambo or irresponsible media consumption allows someone to live in fear).  The only need for those type of firearms are in certain limited wildlife management settings (i.e., needs-based permit system).

[Pato del Muerto 52498]

How is a Semiauto ar-15 mechanically different from my semi-auto 9mm Glock?  
if the hot point differentiator is mag capacity, address that. If it’s cartridge performance, address that. 
 

if it’s how it looks, that’s stupid. 
 

what else could it be?

[TwiceHorn 31471]

6 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

How is a Semiauto ar-15 mechanically different from my semi-auto 9mm Glock?  
if the hot point differentiator is mag capacity, address that. If it’s cartridge performance, address that. 
 

if it’s how it looks, that’s stupid. 
 

what else could it be?

Part of this problem is that the people who propose gun control legislation clearly have almost no inkling about guns.

While an AR isn't very operationally different from a Marlin 60 or Ruger 10/22, there are some things about it that make it well-suited for a mass-murder event.

Until someone who understands guns and shooting sacks up and works with gun-control advocates for reasonable, informed legislation, it's going to whipsaw back and forth with hysteria from both sides.

[RDCanecutter 26443]

17 hours ago, staboner said:

hispanic valley chatter not going away

I'd like the opinion of some guys who grew up there, as to how much Mexican politics spill over from south of the river. Like, not at all, or a lot, or somewhere in the middle?

Monterrey always seemed like a PAN hotspot to me, as in Romney Republican if he spoke more Spanish. But Tamaulipas is pretty PRI, isn't it? Old-timey Chicago machine politics. Or do people reject either of these and that's partly why somebody might have left Mexico?

How much does the R affiliation have to do with Evangelical church membership? Seems like that's getting more popular.

[High Plains Drifter 11049]

20 hours ago, Born to Run said:

 That's turns off a big chunk of Latinos who spend weekends at the ranch shooting guns, even some of my painters pitch in and buy modest rural properties to drink beer and shoot guns like any good redneck.

 

 

A neighbor approached me a while back and asked if I would like to to go in on some rural property with a group of his friends an hour away from us. Cheap land, no amenities, way off the highway, way off from the grid, accessible only by four wheel drive, no surface water. I told him that I would consider it because it sounded like a good place to drink beer and shoot guns.

He crawfished that offer back. Apparently their plans were to make some trails and mountain bike ride.

 

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Part of this problem is that the people who propose gun control legislation clearly have almost no inkling about guns.

While an AR isn't very operationally different from a Marlin 60 or Ruger 10/22, there are some things about it that make it well-suited for a mass-murder event.

Until someone who understands guns and shooting sacks up and works with gun-control advocates for reasonable, informed legislation, it's going to whipsaw back and forth with hysteria from both sides.

This guy, with a military background, lost to Roy Blunt by almost 80,000 votes. I'm not sure you can flip single issue 2A voters any easier than you could flip single issue Pro-Life voters. They have already made up their minds on their team. 

 

[Hookah Horns 3083]

23 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

How is a Semiauto ar-15 mechanically different from my semi-auto 9mm Glock?  
if the hot point differentiator is mag capacity, address that. If it’s cartridge performance, address that. 
 

if it’s how it looks, that’s stupid. 
 

what else could it be?

It seems to be uniquely popular with the whack jobs who kill large groups of people. Why do you suppose that is? 

[GW Hayduke 1953]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Part of this problem is that the people who propose gun control legislation clearly have almost no inkling about guns.

While an AR isn't very operationally different from a Marlin 60 or Ruger 10/22, there are some things about it that make it well-suited for a mass-murder event.

Until someone who understands guns and shooting sacks up and works with gun-control advocates for reasonable, informed legislation, it's going to whipsaw back and forth with hysteria from both sides.

Semi-auto rifles provide no benefit to society except in certain limited wildlife management settings. The obvious route is to implement a buy-back program and needs-based permitting system (i.e., a trained professional wildlife technician permitted to manage populations).  Other long guns and hand guns could have their own tiered needs-based permits. Australia did it and it worked.  It would also all require a licensing, training, background check, and registration system.  

It isn't rocket science. The only difficulty is that people have tied their identity to firearms, a political party uses those people, and those people have been programmed to fear (both scary government takeover of freedom eagles and rabid horde caravan of illegal migrant crack-induced pedophile rapists).  

[Pato del Muerto 52498]

21 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

It seems to be uniquely popular with the whack jobs who kill large groups of people. Why do you suppose that is? 

1) is it?  I’m not going to be scraping the internet to try and prove or disprove this, but if there’s a quick reference you have handy I’ll look at it. 
 

2) here’s some reasons. a) It’s what they already have, as it’s a popular sporting toy.  b) they fancy themselves as military and it’s the closest thing to the rifles used by the us military. c) low cost relative to some other semiauto rifles d) looks e) mag capacity f) buy in pieces (or print some pieces) and assemble at home in effort to hide the fact you have one e) ease of converting to full auto via modification, or just using the bump stock

that’s just off the top of my head.  But if you ban gun X they will just use gun Y or  maybe they already have or can still get gun X. 
 

Edit:  just looked up a couple of events that I thought were other than ar-15

columbine: double barreled breach load sawed off shotgun, pump action shotgun, tek-9, high point carbine

Sandy hook:  Glock 20, sig 226, saiga semiauto shotgun, bushmaster .223 semiauto

those were both examples of weapons of convenience, but I’d expect similar results if I kept looking. 
 

aurora movie shooter had a m&p15 and a pump shotgun. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Pato del Muerto

[Hookah Horns 3083]

7 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

1) is it?  I’m not going to be scraping the internet to try and prove or disprove this, but if there’s a quick reference you have handy I’ll look at it. 
 

2) here’s some reasons. a) It’s what they already have, as it’s a popular sporting toy.  b) they fancy themselves as military and it’s the closest thing to the rifles used by the us military. c) low cost relative to some other semiauto rifles d) looks e) mag capacity f) buy in pieces (or print some pieces) and assemble at home in effort to hide the fact you have one e) ease of converting to full auto via modification, or just using the bump stock

that’s just off the top of my head.  But if you ban gun X they will just use gun Y or  maybe they already have or can still get gun X. 
 

 

Appreciate your thoughts. 

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ar-15-story.html

[Pato del Muerto 52498]

7 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

Appreciate your thoughts. 

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ar-15-story.html

Read it.  My takeaways are:

1) it makes sense that the deadlier weapon creates the deadlier events, so not surprising that the deadliest events have the ar15 in common

2) are nutjobs learning and seeking the best tool for their purpose, and the ar is becoming more common and ubiquitous, or is it still random distribution of weaponry?

my examples above are obviously on the older side. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Pato del Muerto

[RDCanecutter 26443]

Can't wait for a post-gun America where I have to hear reporters calling every epee, saber, and gladius a "broadsword."

[956 Worldwide 34715]

Mass casualty events with AR-15s constitute a fraction of gun violence deaths, if we had ONLY those were committed each year we would have a lot party.

Any real discussion on gun violence should start with who is shooting whom and why.  Most shootings are done as part of an ongoing crime or are arguments that get out of hand and people use the firearm that is at hand or useful in the commission of a crime— a handgun.  Long guns are not really useful for any crime except premeditated massacres, and those are, again, a small fraction of shootings but get the most coverage by far.

Part of the reason people get worked up about attempts to take them away is because they perceive (correctly) that making them the target disproportionately impacts the gun owners least likely to use them illegally. 
 
It’s like going on an anti-drowning crusade but targeting bathtubs (people do drown in them) but not swimming pools.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

46 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Part of this problem is that the people who propose gun control legislation clearly have almost no inkling about guns.

While an AR isn't very operationally different from a Marlin 60 or Ruger 10/22, there are some things about it that make it well-suited for a mass-murder event.

Until someone who understands guns and shooting sacks up and works with gun-control advocates for reasonable, informed legislation, it's going to whipsaw back and forth with hysteria from both sides.

I don't know a lot about guns, but the part I bolded is the part that I follow. I am enough aware of the history of your institution to know that the choice of weapon doesn't stop all events. However, if there is something in particular that makes a weapon or its add-ons well suited for killing large groups of people in a short amount of time with little to no ability to intervene in the assault, then I would like to see it very very difficult to obtain for either a)everyone or b)people whom society has deemed are a danger to themselves or others or c)its sale is regulated to some degree.

The problem seems to be is that my view is seen as completely unreasonable and I guess I don't quite get why, perhaps because I am not someone knowledgeable about it. I don't see a problem with the second amendment; it doesn't say which type of guns so when someone else says it means 'all guns' I guess I don't see the amendment as quite that expansive, nor do I see it as the slippery slope.

[aggie08 21504]

Just once, one fucking time, I want to hear the gun crowd be honest. Cut the shit about why you have a dozen guns and a built-up AR for protection or ensuring that you can take up arms against a hostile government, and just admit that you like guns. I'd respect that argument. There's nothing wrong with liking guns. Guns are cool (when used and stored safely). Fast cars are cool and dangerous as well. But every public road in America has a speed limit, and you can only drive a Formula 1 car on a track with the proper permits and licenses.

Edited January 26, 2021 by aggie08

[Guest Lobo]

14 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Can't wait for a post-gun America where I have to hear reporters calling every epee, saber, and gladius a "broadsword."

I read this in Darrell Hammond's impression of Sean Connery.  "I'll take 'S'words for $300"  

What is a saber?  

[Born to Run 6569]

I read this in Darrell Hammond's impression of Sean Connery.  "I'll take 'S'words for $300"  
What is a saber?  

Well, well, well, we meet again Trebeck!

[Guest Lobo]

Well, it starts with an "S", doesn't it?  HAHAHAHAHA! 

I don't know why but I'm honestly thinking about buying another firearm.  I'm worried as shit about having it in my house with my overly-curious two little girls.  But I get a bad vibe from some sore-loser Trumpers lately.  Not so much the rage-filled asshole ones, but the ones with this blank stare in their eyes now like, 'Yeah, I would have preferred the election go a different way.  Uh, will you excuse me...I'm just gonna go in my garage for a few minutes.'