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Identifying Trump rioters

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28791

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8 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

He held power until January 20th.  That's it.  No certification in Congress, he's done come January 20th.  Roberts wouldn't have sworn him in if that shit went down.   

Who says there would’ve been an inauguration? I think we would’ve needed the generals to come to our rescue, not the justices. Trump is a wannabe autocrat and my one consolation has been that I don’t think he has the active generals on his side. 

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Macanudo

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Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

Who says there would’ve been an inauguration? I think we would’ve needed the generals to come to our rescue, not the justices. Trump is a wannabe autocrat and my one consolation has been that I don’t think he has the active generals on his side. 

And I'll point out yet again, the fact that we are discussing whether the military would need to get involved in ANY WAY means the idea of the "Shining city on the hill" ideal of the Pilgrims AND Reagan is dead.   

We're approaching or at where Latin America was/has been for the last 100-150 years (no thanks in large part of our foreign policy.)    Constant upheaval, little faith in government (at any level) and the powerful elite running everything while owning everything.

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Macanudo

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5 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Who says there would’ve been an inauguration? I think we would’ve needed the generals to come to our rescue, not the justices. Trump is a wannabe autocrat and my one consolation has been that I don’t think he has the active generals on his side. 

The justices would have gone along with Trump and 30-40% of the voters would have too.   

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29355

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32 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

He held power until January 20th.  That's it.  No certification in Congress, he's done come January 20th.  Roberts wouldn't have sworn him in if that shit went down.   

Ah, yes, everyone certainly would've recognized him as an illegitimate president if he tried to rule without having been sworn in.

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Js1

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4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Ah, yes, everyone certainly would've recognized him as an illegitimate president if he tried to rule without having been sworn in.

RIP, Roberts.  Alito would have murdered him and made himself Chief Justice. 

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Macanudo

Macanudo 12995

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5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Ah, yes, everyone certainly would've recognized him as an illegitimate president if he tried to rule without having been sworn in.

Not everyone.   But way more than it should.   And enough that the violence in the streets might have been very real.  

We've become the kind of country we used to think about invading to keep the peace.

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atomheartbevo

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5 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Who says there would’ve been an inauguration? I think we would’ve needed the generals to come to our rescue, not the justices. Trump is a wannabe autocrat and my one consolation has been that I don’t think he has the active generals on his side. 

Come January 20th, the military, FBI, etc., would no longer have him as their boss, and given the scenario some of you ginned up, he would be giving out illegal orders that would not be recognized.

And he doesn't get to come up with his own budget to pay whatever PMC Erik Prince or whoever tosses his way (and said PMC would be wrecked by the actual military anyways). 

His fuckery will cause paychecks to stop going out.  Nobody is getting paid and he's no longer President. Military sits it out. FBI and the other 3-letter agencies sit it out, Secret Service slips out the side door of the White House, because they have no desire to take a bullet for no pay.

He can shout orders at Jared or Miller, but who will actually carry them out? 

So then what?  

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28791

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53 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Come January 20th, the military, FBI, etc., would no longer have him as their boss, and given the scenario some of you ginned up, he would be giving out illegal orders that would not be recognized.

And he doesn't get to come up with his own budget to pay whatever PMC Erik Prince or whoever tosses his way (and said PMC would be wrecked by the actual military anyways). 

His fuckery will cause paychecks to stop going out.  Nobody is getting paid and he's no longer President. Military sits it out. FBI and the other 3-letter agencies sit it out, Secret Service slips out the side door of the White House, because they have no desire to take a bullet for no pay.

He can shout orders at Jared or Miller, but who will actually carry them out? 

So then what?  

I think the mistake you’re making is that, if he were successful in his coup, we’d still be a democracy. We wouldn’t be. We’d be living under a dictatorship. That’s why I say that my one consolation is that he doesn’t have the generals on his side. If he did then he could rewrite the constitution, throw all of his political opponents in jail, and what power would Roberts have to do about it? He’d rule for the rest of his life.

What would Putin do? That’s what Trump would do if he could. I believe our military leaders are still devoted enough to democracy to allow that to happen but it’s scary to think about. Especially considering the fact that a guy like Mike Flynn exists. 

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89735

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22 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I think the mistake you’re making is that, if he were successful in his coup, we’d still be a democracy. We wouldn’t be. We’d be living under a dictatorship. That’s why I say that my one consolation is that he doesn’t have the generals on his side. If he did then he could rewrite the constitution, throw all of his political opponents in jail, and what power would Roberts have to do about it? He’d rule for the rest of his life.

The mistake you make is thinking that all of these people, agencies, and companies that would be required to make the US a dictatorship would actually go along with it.  Hell, he couldn't even get a lot of his own hand-picked people in top positions in the DOD and DOJ and others to go along with the legally stupid shit he was trying, let alone tossing the Constitution out and turning the place into North Korea.

The fact that your scenario (and others being tossed around) didn't come anywhere even close to fruition proves my point - the system was doing what it was supposed to be doing - keeping a man from becoming a king.  

While Jan. 6 was certainly shitty, a bunch of real estate agents and cosplayers aren't going to overthrow the government and turn us into a bigger version of North Korea. To pull off the Tom Clancy stuff some of you are pushing requires the kind (and amount) of loyalty that Trump simply does not command, and has never commanded - MAGA puts money in your campaign coffers, but it doesn't make the government pivot on a dime and come down squarely backing Trump against all others.

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89735

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49 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

What would Putin do? That’s what Trump would do if he could.

Trump wouldn't do that, because Trump doesn't understand how to do what Putin does. Donald Trump is the Greg Abbott of Presidents - all he can do is react.  The man couldn't think ahead and plan his way out of a wet paper bag if you gave him a few weeks notice.

Putin spent 46 years of his 69 years on earth in government agencies and bureaucracies, and the guy spent 15 years in the KGB throughout the late 70s and 80s, and then spent the following decades after that building up a base of power that is unmatched outside of North Korea or China.

Versus Donald Trump, the draft dodger known for bankrupting companies in industries that should have been easy money, and who bounced between political parties based on whoever could make his business life easier.  The guy known for a shitty reality TV show and who rose to political prominence based on make believe claims  on twitter that Obama was born in Kenya and who was in office for four years because the Dems don't know how to pick candidates.

There is absolutely no comparison between Putin and Trump.  Putin is Putin because he busted his ass, read the tea leaves, could read a room, and played an extremely long game over decades.  Shit, Trump couldn't even handle fucking around on Ivana with Marla Maples at the same fucking ski resort.

Hell, if Putin was given Trump's resources in the 70s' that Daddy Trump gave Dotard, that Russian motherfucker would be up there in the top 10 or 15 richest people in the world.

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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26454

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1 hour ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Judge:  A 35-year-old man rioter can't be trusted to understand the truth so he orders the rioter's parents to keep him off social media.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/thomas-sibick-jan-6-rioter-who-now-loathes-trump-is-released-from-toxic-jail?via=desktop&source=Reddit

Sounds like he's smart enough to repeat what his lawyer told him to say.

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Gil Bang

Gil Bang 25980

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Federal agents arrested an Orange County man Monday who they said was seen fighting with police officers on the steps and in a tunnel behind the inaugural platform of the U.S. Capitol Building during the Jan. 6 attack by thousands of supporters of then-President Donald Trump.

Federal documents show Kim Michael Sorgente was taken into custody when U.S. Marshals served a search warrant for him in Santa Ana. He was later released and ordered to appear in the courtroom of Judge Robin Meriweather, a magistrate judge in Washington, D.C., via video conference on Nov. 4.

In a complaint unsealed Tuesday, an FBI agent who tracked down Sorgente said he was seen on security camera footage and on the body-worn cameras of Capitol police attempting with other rioters to get inside the building as Congress and then-Vice President Mike Pence certified the election as president of Joe Biden.

“How dare you? How dare you, traitors?” a man identified as Sorgente screamed through a megaphone after he stumbled to the ground amid a mob of rioters scuffling with Capitol police over a metal barricade. “How dare you traitors?”

According to the complaint, that incident at 1:34 p.m. was the first time Sorgente was spotted that day during the riot. The investigating FBI agent said Sorgente was wearing a red “Make America Great Again” hat and a T shirt with the words “Deus Vult” (God wills it) on it, while carrying a pink phone and the white megaphone.

About a half hour later, he was seen approaching the inauguration platform with hundreds of other people, continuing to move toward the Capitol Building as a voice over a loudspeaker instructed them that they were entering a restricted area.

At 2:41 p.m., Sorgente had made his way to the tunnel where U.S. presidents walk out to be inaugurated, according to stills of video footage included in the complaint. Dozens of people were already jammed inside the tunnel fighting with police.

Sorgente went inside for one minute, then left. But he returned about 10 minutes later as others were crushing officers blocking them using a human-wave tactic. He joined the rioters in the tunnel in rocking back-and-forth trying to dislodge the officers in front of them packing the hallway, according to the complaint.

He was at the tunnel for about two hours helping rioters fight with police, officials allege. At one point, they allege, Sorgente picked up a police riot shield and used it to push a man in front of him further into the police line.

Sorgente was apparently there as Rosanne Boyland, a 34-year-old Georgia woman who died of an amphetamine overdose at the riot, was being shoved to the ground just outside the tunnel entrance when a mass of people were pushed out. The video footage from a Capitol officer captured Sorgente screaming for someone to save Boyland.

“Get her up. Get her up, please,” Sorgente could be heard saying in video footage. “Save her life. Save her life.”

See also: These Southern California residents are accused of taking part in the Capitol riot

The U.S. Attorney’s Office charged Sorgente with one count each of obstructing police officers during a riot, entering a restricted building and disorderly conduct inside a restricted building.

He faces 15.5 years in prison if convicted of all charges.

Sorgente was not arrested on the day of the Capitol riot, but he was later taken into custody in March by the Santa Ana Police Department.

Sorgente had made other appearances at local rallies that turned violent in 2020: The FBI got his cell phone number from a Santa Ana Police Department detective who was investigating him for a December 2020 assault during a rally near Santa Ana College.

According to New Santa Ana, a local news blog, Sorgente was accused of hitting another person over the head with a megaphone at a Dec. 6, 2020 “Stop the Steal” rally.

Santa Ana police were investigating Sorgente for that assault when he appeared at the Capitol riot. According to the FBI complaint, a Santa Ana detective called Sorgente on his cell phone on Jan. 4, just two days before the attack .

Sorgente was arrested by Santa Ana police in March. The Orange County District Attorney’s office charged Sorgente with two counts of assault with a deadly weapon. He was later released in June after posting a $100,000 bond.

Sorgente has pleaded not guilty to the assaults and is still awaiting trial in that case

It was not clear if Sorgente had an attorney yet for the federal case. Public defenders assigned to him for the alleged Santa Ana assaults did not return requests for comment or were not available Tuesday.

A phone number listed for Sorgente was disconnected Tuesday.

This story was updated to correct the cause of death of Rosanne Boyland

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Guest Lobo

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Kim Michael Sorgente?  Was this like a "Boy Named Sue" situation where his Dad named his baby boy, Kim in the hopes it would toughen him up?  

'Cause that dude is fucked now.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31510

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18 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Fucking hand down these terms, rather than this bullshit a few months in jail and then probation.

That's kind of a deceptive number.  That is adding or "stacking" the sentences for each of the charged crimes.  As long as the crimes result from the same "criminal episode," which these would, sentences are not "stacked."  Generally speaking, a federal court keeps the most serious offense of conviction and dismisses or ignores the lesser offenses (the idea being they'd run concurrently, anyway, so why waste the energy on sentencing them) and goes through the sentencing rigmarole only on that greatest charge.  Sometimes, the fact of conviction of the lesser offenses winds up enhancing the sentence for the greater charge.

It's not some great leniency that he doesn't get the "full 15.5 years," it's that 15.5 years is and never was a realistic sentencing number.  It's not even like when a single crime carries a maximum of 20 years and only the very most egregious cases would receive the 20 years.  It's more like he's charged with a 10 year max felony, a five year max felony, and a six month misdemeanor.  That full 15.5 was never on the table, really only 10 was.

And, this guy is one of the relatively  comparatively stiffly (felony) charged 1/6ers.  Most are charged with misdemeanors that have an absolute max of one year, and in many cases only six months.

Without diminishing 1/6, most of these assclowns were "insurrection tourists" and the misdemeanor charge really is probably adequate, considering the ignominy, the cost of defending yourself in the District of DC and the specter of pretrial detention or bail conditions and prison, even if for 30 days or six months.  That's going to make an impression on most of these fuckers.  Do not underestimate the anxiety and unease that comes from being under criminal indictment in federal court, even for a relatively chickenshit offense.

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atomheartbevo

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3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Without diminishing 1/6, most of these assclowns were "insurrection tourists" and the misdemeanor charge really is probably adequate, considering the ignominy, the cost of defending yourself in the District of DC and the specter of pretrial detention or bail conditions and prison, even if for 30 days or six months.  That's going to make an impression on most of these fuckers.  Do not underestimate the anxiety and unease that comes from being under criminal indictment in federal court, even for a relatively chickenshit offense.

That, and thankfully plenty of them have lost jobs/watched their businesses go poof, and are being shunned by family/friends/co-workers.

Of course, that could push plenty of them even more into the Qanon-type camp, but the flip side - there are plenty of people who don't want to lose their jobs or their businesses.  A lot of Trump supporters actually have a lot more to lose than they act like.

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TwiceHorn

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1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

in this instance can a judge go above and beyond and make it like double (or more)? just as an extra 'fuck you' to her? or is what the prosecutors are asking the max she can get?

It's a misdemeanor, so the absolute maximum is one year.  That particular offense, which is a common 1/6 offense, has a statutory maximum of six months. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/40/5104

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Guest Lobo

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Not really.  Get me an anonymous digital payment system to load up some canteen accounts/legal appeal funds/direct payments to family members, and I can get at least 5-10 of these guys dead in prison.  Getting it done within 6 months will be tough by the time you develop rapport and before they can track patterns of behavior.  Within a year though, yeah we can get a handful of these insurrectionists dead.  Quite possibly by guards as well.  It'll serve as the warning to others that the DoJ refused to do.  

Again, the trick is a digital payment system that can flow through a federally chartered 50-state bank in which we can add layers for online donors to flow through a legit banking entity that finds its way to the right people who we're just trying to help as advocates of criminal justice reform.  If only there was a such a chartered CFI where someone we knew was up for promotion to Assistant Vice President. 

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RPM

RPM 26326

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22 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Not really.  Get me an anonymous digital payment system to load up some canteen accounts/legal appeal funds/direct payments to family members, and I can get at least 5-10 of these guys dead in prison.  Getting it done within 6 months will be tough by the time you develop rapport and before they can track patterns of behavior.  Within a year though, yeah we can get a handful of these insurrectionists dead.  Quite possibly by guards as well.  It'll serve as the warning to others that the DoJ refused to do.  

Again, the trick is a digital payment system that can flow through a federally chartered 50-state bank in which we can add layers for online donors to flow through a legit banking entity that finds its way to the right people who we're just trying to help as advocates of criminal justice reform.  If only there was a such a chartered CFI where someone we knew was up for promotion to Assistant Vice President. 

allegedly 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31510

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51 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Seems like maybe we should change those laws. 

What we don't have, and haven't had much need for, are more laws in the nature of seditious conspiracy or insurrection.

These particular laws aren't even part of the criminal code, per se, they're part of the statutes governing various aspects of the Capitol. They're intended to encompass ordinary protestors on Capitol grounds, not January 6.

The until-now lack of need for such laws and the difficulty of drafting them to survive First Amendment scrutiny is why we don't have them. 

 

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45692

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17 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What we don't have, and haven't had much need for, are more laws in the nature of seditious conspiracy or insurrection.

These particular laws aren't even part of the criminal code, per se, they're part of the statutes governing various aspects of the Capitol. They're intended to encompass ordinary protestors on Capitol grounds, not January 6.

The until-now lack of need for such laws and the difficulty of drafting them to survive First Amendment scrutiny is why we don't have them. 

 

Oh I get it. Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. 

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High Plains Drifter

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On 10/28/2021 at 7:29 PM, TwiceHorn said:

 

Without diminishing 1/6, most of these assclowns were "insurrection tourists" and the misdemeanor charge really is probably adequate, considering the ignominy, the cost of defending yourself in the District of DC and the specter of pretrial detention or bail conditions and prison, even if for 30 days or six months.  That's going to make an impression on most of these fuckers.  Do not underestimate the anxiety and unease that comes from being under criminal indictment in federal court, even for a relatively chickenshit offense.

 

I'm sorry counselor, but this is a load of horseshit.

There needs to be a very loud, clear message sent: You participate in a riot whose purpose was to overthrow the US government, even if you were only a "tourist" (whatever the fuck that means), you are going to spend a long time in a dark hole.

Otherwise, this will happen again.

The justice dept. is fucking this up. Time and again, their social media posts show they were not "tourists". They were there for one reason. They saw the fighting with the cops, the vandalism, they heard the rhetoric, they heard the chants of kill Pence and kill Pelosi. They are terrorists, traitors, and insurrectionists.

Ignominy and anxiety and unease? What the fucking fuck? That's what you feel the morning after you get drunk at your friend's wedding and say something stupid. Six months after you attempt to overthrow the government you should be feeling the dread of 30+ years of prison.

These fucks should have been met with massed lethal force on Jan 6. Every fucking one of them who entered the Capital that day should die in prison and then rot in hell.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105161

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I'm sorry counselor, but this is a load of horseshit.
There needs to be a very loud, clear message sent: You participate in a riot whose purpose was to overthrow the US government, even if you were only a "tourist" (whatever the fuck that means), you are going to spend a long time in a dark hole.
Otherwise, this will happen again.
The justice dept. is fucking this up. Time and again, their social media posts show they were not "tourists". They were there for one reason. They saw the fighting with the cops, the vandalism, they heard the rhetoric, they heard the chants of kill Pence and kill Pelosi. They are terrorists, traitors, and insurrectionists.
Ignominy and anxiety and unease? What the fucking fuck? That's what you feel the morning after you get drunk at your friend's wedding and say something stupid. Six months after you attempt to overthrow the government you should be feeling the dread of 30+ years of prison.
These fucks should have been met with massed lethal force on Jan 6. Every fucking one of them who entered the Capital that day should die in prison and then rot in hell.

A lot of this.
If we want to have any shot at saving the republic, treasonous shitbags who tried to decapitate our government should rot UNDER the prison.

By the way, we have no shot at saving the republic. These fucks are emboldened. They’ll try something like it again, and next time, it will work.
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