Trump Impeachment 2: Insurrection Boogaloo

[SizzleChest 8275]

 

[Red Five 40627]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

It's literally in there.  on the beginning of page 4

Guess I probably should have read the entire thing. 

I was thinking it should be a separate article. 

[Js1 85085]

5 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Guess I probably should have read the entire thing. 

I was thinking it should be a separate article. 

Easier and faster to just get one big article passed? 

[Dahobbs 17420]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Easier and faster to just get one big article passed? 

Obviously they haven't been prioritizing faster, otherwise this would have been done Wednesday night. 

[Biff Tannen 45491]

So they're giving Pence 24 more hours to do nothing?

[Bateshorn 9897]

13 hours ago, formermav43 said:

Like I said on another thread, it’s the fake tough guy begging for someone to hold him back. What a joke.

House exercises literally only power it has to deal with Trump as 1/2 of 1/3 of the government.  "What weaklings!!!!"

The House needs a couple of days to procedurally let things ripen.  It's not them prevaricating, they are turning the gears of impeachment as fast as they will go.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Bateshorn

[wildcat09 29213]

1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

House exercises literally only power it has to deal with Trump as 1/2 of 1/3 of the government.  "What weaklings!!!!"

The criticism has to do with the delay and the fact that, before they exercised the Constitutionally-delegated power they had, they begged Pence and the cabinet to remove him instead and even had talks with the military to ensure they'd ignore orders from the Commander in Chief.

[formermav43 4599]

11 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

House exercises literally only power it has to deal with Trump as 1/2 of 1/3 of the government.  "What weaklings!!!!"

The House needs a couple of days to procedurally let things ripen.  It's not them prevaricating, they are turning the gears of impeachment as fast as they will go.

 

7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The criticism has to do with the delay and the fact that, before they exercised the Constitutionally-delegated power they had, they begged Pence and the cabinet to remove him instead and even had talks with the military to ensure they'd ignore orders from the Commander in Chief.

Not only begged past tense-according to the tweet that prompted my post, the plan is STILL to take a couple of votes on a resolution to urge Pence to invoke the 25th amendment and only if he fails to act to take up impeachment. That’s not their job, and it’s certainly not “turning the gears of impeachment as fast as they will go.”

Its looking for an out.

[Js1 85085]

23 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The criticism has to do with the delay and the fact that, before they exercised the Constitutionally-delegated power they had, they begged Pence and the cabinet to remove him instead and even had talks with the military to ensure they'd ignore orders from the Commander in Chief.

Because the House can't remove him via impeachment and Mitch McBitch has already said he's not bringing the Senate back before January 19. 

[wildcat09 29213]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

Because the House can't remove him via impeachment and Mitch McBitch has already said he's not bringing the Senate back before January 19. 

The House impeaching is step one though. They should do their fucking jobs and impeach and then constantly demand that Mitch bring the senate back in session and remove. Their actions don't match their rhetoric and as a result fewer people take them seriously. They've already given the Republicans way too much time to come up with and start putting out their talking points about why we just need to move forward and not hold anyone accountable.

They should have introduced articles of impeachment last Thursday and held the vote that day. That would have been the right thing to do both as a matter of national security and as a matter of political strategy.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The House impeaching is step one though. They should do their fucking jobs and impeach and then constantly demand that Mitch bring the senate back in session and remove. Their actions don't match their rhetoric and as a result fewer people take them seriously. They've already given the Republicans way too much time to come up with and start putting out their talking points about why we just need to move forward and not hold anyone accountable.

They should have introduced articles of impeachment last Thursday and held the vote that day. That would have been the right thing to do both as a matter of national security and as a matter of political strategy.

So much all of this.  The delay illustrates just how out of touch these folks are to the situation.  

[Bateshorn 9897]

33 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

 

Not only begged past tense-according to the tweet that prompted my post, the plan is STILL to take a couple of votes on a resolution to urge Pence to invoke the 25th amendment and only if he fails to act to take up impeachment. That’s not their job, and it’s certainly not “turning the gears of impeachment as fast as they will go.”

Its looking for an out.

WTF are you talking about?  They literally can not vote on the articles today.  These votes are to fill time until they can get everything organized and brought to the floor.  Also, the Dems literally do not have the 216 they need right now.  Eleanor Holmes Norton is talking 25th instead of Impeachment.  The Democrats are working with a 6 seat majority.

You guys literally do not know wtf you are talking about.  The Senate is in pro forma session and can only be brought back in by unanimous consent.  Even if MItch had a fucking hard on to remove, Tommy Tuberville is going to object and drag this shit out until 1/19. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Bateshorn

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

Ran across this pic recently.

Don't know how much of a thinking man Michael Pence is. Easy to think he is reactionary and a dullard; but if he does reflect upon the events from almost a week ago, I hope this image comes to mind:

It's standard transition stuff, but maybe he's forgotten. How it could've been, how it's going, how it might be. What a world Mr. Pence and look what's happened.

He's been a follower for a long long time, much of his life it looks like. Came out from under the shadow of older siblings and made a name for himself. But when it comes right down to this moment in time, you just know he's going to fold, be the humble devoted servant. Wish someone could get through to him that serving the country is far far more noble than serving that madman in the Oval Office.

[wildcat09 29213]

Just now, Bateshorn said:

WTF are you talking about?  They literally can not vote on the articles today.  These votes are to fill time until they can get everything organized and brought to the floor.  Also, the Dems literally do not have the 216 they need right now.  Eleanor Holmes Norton is talking 25th instead of Impeachment. 

I can’t think of a more damning indictment of the Democratic Party than if they still don’t have the votes to impeach Trump after he tried to have them killed in a coup attempt.

[Js1 85085]

2 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

WTF are you talking about?  They literally can not vote on the articles today.  These votes are to fill time until they can get everything organized and brought to the floor.  Also, the Dems literally do not have the 216 they need right now.  Eleanor Holmes Norton is talking 25th instead of Impeachment. 

Are you sure on that? Ciccilline says they have the votes on his impeachment amendment - at least 220 Dems.  Which is almost the entire caucus.  Plus Liu says he has Republican votes (at least Kinzinger for sure). 

Your first point is correct though.  

[Bateshorn 9897]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I can’t think of a more damning indictment of the Democratic Party than if they still don’t have the votes to impeach Trump after he tried to have them killed in a coup attempt.

The person in whose city is that insurrection is happening is balking, so.....

[Bateshorn 9897]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

Are you sure on that? Ciccilline says they have the votes on his impeachment amendment - at least 220 Dems.  Which is almost the entire caucus.  Plus Liu says he has Republican votes (at least Kinzinger for sure). 

Your first point is correct though.  

That was as of 8 this morning, I've not done a whip check since then. I know they were close.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Bateshorn

[wildcat09 29213]

Just now, Bateshorn said:

The person in whose city is that insurrection is happening is balking, so.....

Yeah, that’s not good.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Are you sure on that? Ciccilline says they have the votes on his impeachment amendment - at least 220 Dems.  Which is almost the entire caucus.  Plus Liu says he has Republican votes (at least Kinzinger for sure). 

Your first point is correct though.  

Isn't @Bateshornin DC and specifically has an ear on the ground for that type of info? I guess I trust his news...

 

Sorry, ya'll type fast

Edited January 11, 2021 by Mrs Whiggins

[TwiceHorn 31240]

27 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The House impeaching is step one though. They should do their fucking jobs and impeach and then constantly demand that Mitch bring the senate back in session and remove. Their actions don't match their rhetoric and as a result fewer people take them seriously. They've already given the Republicans way too much time to come up with and start putting out their talking points about why we just need to move forward and not hold anyone accountable.

They should have introduced articles of impeachment last Thursday and held the vote that day. That would have been the right thing to do both as a matter of national security and as a matter of political strategy.

And they know as well as anyone how slowly their gears turn.  They should have been working on the preliminaries with all deliberate speed.

[Js1 85085]

6 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Isn't @Bateshornin DC and specifically has an ear on the ground for that type of info? I guess I trust his news...

 

Sorry, ya'll type fast

I do trust him.  Especially on how this works procedurally.  I was going off this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/11/democrats-votes-impeach-trump-again/

[Bateshorn 9897]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

I do trust him.  Especially on how this works procedurally.  I was going off this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/11/democrats-votes-impeach-trump-again/

that looks right.  I'm scrambling to find congressional speakers for an event because they keep cancelling because of the trauma of last week.  Which I get.  Sadly my leadership does not.

[wildcat09 29213]

14 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

WTF are you talking about?  They literally can not vote on the articles today.  These votes are to fill time until they can get everything organized and brought to the floor.  Also, the Dems literally do not have the 216 they need right now.  Eleanor Holmes Norton is talking 25th instead of Impeachment.  The Democrats are working with a 6 seat majority.

You guys literally do not know wtf you are talking about.  The Senate is in pro forma session and can only be brought back in by unanimous consent.  Even if MItch had a fucking hard on to remove, Tommy Tuberville is going to object and drag this shit out until 1/19. 

Fine. Impeach and call Tommy a fucking traitor for blocking removal then!  "The Republicans are obstructing us from protecting the inauguration!" would be a very effective political message!

[Foosters 17725]

5 days too late.

[Js1 85085]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Fine. Impeach and call Tommy a fucking traitor for blocking removal then!  "The Republicans are obstructing us from protecting the inauguration!" would be a very effective political message!

Tommy Tuberville lost to Vanderbilt.  VANDERBILT for fucks sake.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19092]

Because the House can't remove him via impeachment and Mitch McBitch has already said he's not bringing the Senate back before January 19. 

He can’t. It would take a unanimous vote to come back early, and asshats like Cruz and Hawley would be no’s.

[Bateshorn 9897]

4 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

He can’t. It would take a unanimous vote to come back early, and asshats like Cruz and Hawley would be no’s.

This.  I think Warnock and Ossoff won't be sworn in until 1/19, then they'll need to do an organizing resolution and Schumer will finally have the keys.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Bateshorn

[wildcat09 29213]

I sincerely do not understand the brain rot that has led a large portion of the Democratic party to believe that "the Republicans will obstruct us" is a good reason to never do anything. I used to think that it was just a convenient excuse to not do things they pretended to support but didn't really want to do, but now they're running the same script in response to their own attempted murders!

"The other party is obstructing us from doing this good thing that people want and that we want to do!" is good politics! It's the whole reason for messaging bills! And now we're talking about literally protecting American democracy and preventing Trump from using his power to decapitate it, after he's tried once, and it took nearly 5 full days to get enough votes?

How are any of us supposed to have any faith whatsoever that these people can lead our country through this?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Procedural excuses are just that, excuses.  Congress can move as quickly as it wants on this.  The problem is letting the insurrectionists obstruct without consequences. 

[Foosters 17725]

Part of me thinks that the only way we will see an actual attempt to kneecap the GOP from exercising or retaining power is an actual bloodbath between now and 1/20. Even then, I'm sure we'd have a third of the party interested in compromise.

[Js1 85085]

2 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

This.  I think Warnock and Ossoff won't be sworn in until 1/19, then they'll need to do an organizing resolution and Schumer will finally have the keys.

Raffensperger said he "hopes" to certify by the 19th or 20th. 

[lemonlime 5503]

Yeah, they should have impeached Wednesday night immediately after the EC stuff.  I can sort of understand waiting a day, especially since they and their staffs had been terrorized on Wednesday.  It was the wrong decision, but I can get it.   But there is no excuse for impeachment not to have started last week.

[B00M 6280]

12 minutes ago, Foosters said:

5 days too late.

It's never too late to make sure trump can't run again in 4 years. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by B00M
Well, i suppose it will be in a few years... It's ok if this takes a few weeks

[SimonBolivar 10910]

21 hours ago, Js1 said:

Based Manchin - impeach that fuck, make DC and PR states. 

Democrats are angry. No need to hold back anymore 

Time to call Guam and the USVI too and see how they feel about statehood.

[Pato del Muerto 52336]

Best guess (though I think articles should have been delivered no later than Friday):  Wednesday they had other business and that one interruption of democracy. They went late into the night to finish the business at hand.  Many are old. Thursday: They slept in to shake off the events of Wednesday and got debriefed and whatnot. Friday:  efforts begin, but was it thurs or fri when pelosi called for resignations of SaA and cap pd head?  So they were still thinking about immediate personal safety.  So that leaves the weekend to write up the impeachment and do the vote counting shit that they do before calling for discussion and a vote. 

[Js1 85085]

3 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Best guess (though I think articles should have been delivered no later than Friday):  Wednesday they had other business and that one interruption of democracy. They went late into the night to finish the business at hand.  Many are old. Thursday: They slept in to shake off the events of Wednesday and got debriefed and whatnot. Friday:  efforts begin, but was it thurs or fri when pelosi called for resignations of SaA and cap pd head?  So they were still thinking about immediate personal safety.  So that leaves the weekend to write up the impeachment and do the vote counting shit that they do before calling for discussion and a vote. 

There still has not been a coordinated federal debrief of the events of Wednesday to Congress yet. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Js1

[Js1 85085]

11 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Yeah, they should have impeached Wednesday night immediately after the EC stuff.  I can sort of understand waiting a day, especially since they and their staffs had been terrorized on Wednesday.  It was the wrong decision, but I can get it.   But there is no excuse for impeachment not to have started last week.

Thursday morning.  Didn't they finish until 3:40am

[burntorangebongos 10681]

Ga Senators aren't sworn in until 22nd. 

The dems are trying to get Republicans to bear some responsibility and admit that Trump is a lying crazy loon. In their calculus, they think a unified front might stave off more violence from the trumper cult. But the republicans just see it as rubbing their nose in it. The Trumper loons are talking about armed marches at state capitols and DC. I don't see the point on waiting for repubs to join in. The few sane ones will but fuck the rest. Maybe there is a good reason to negotiate with the republican leadership but I don't see it if they are not going to agree with Trump accountability.

[Js1 85085]

55 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Time to call Guam and the USVI too and see how they feel about statehood.

I love it, but man, idk.  Guam is further from Hawaii than Hawaii is from the continental U.S.

Guam, USVI, Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa have a combined population that's 200,000 less than Wyoming.  I don't support statehood for them, by themselves. 

Now, if you want to discuss statehood for DC, PR + USVI (American Caribbean State) and Guam + Northern Mariana Islands (American Pacific State), I'm down.  Lump in American Samoa with Hawaii (no Senators but add another Rep.) 

That's 6 Senators and approximately 9 new Reps (1 Rep for DC, 5 Reps for the American Caribbean State*, 2 for the American Pacific State and 1 extra Rep for Hawaii/Guam). 
 

*PR's population is between Iowa and Utah, both of whom have 4 Congressional Districts, so PR would get 4 as well. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Js1

[TXSG8R 3360]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

And they know as well as anyone how slowly their gears turn.  They should have been working on the preliminaries with all deliberate speed.

 

Quote

The bill has nearly 160 cosponsors, a sign of the broad support among House Democrats to take action in the wake of the violence at the Capitol. It was authored by Democratic Representatives Ted Lieu of California, and David Cicilline of Rhode Island, who began drafting it while sheltering in place Wednesday in the Capitol complex. Maryland Representative Jamie Raskin also helped write the article.

I think we are underestimating how ponderous things are for a legislative body this size, writing a document under this much scrutiny, after their offices were ransacked.  I know how long ECP reviews take within my tiny gov't program due to all the aviation safety concerns.  Im sure the legal questions and analysis for ensuring you dont leave the president an easy avenue for escape isnt something you can just whip up and pass around 160 people for review and approval in a day.  

Edited January 11, 2021 by TXSG8R

[wildcat09 29213]

Impeachment is purely up to Congress. The President doesn't have any legal loopholes he can exploit to get out of it.

Congress normally moves extremely slowly. I get that. There's 435 House reps and 100 Senators. That's a lot of cats to wrangle, just logistically speaking. They've adopted procedural rules for how things should be considered (and Bateshorn is the only one here who is really familiar with them). But those rules are their own making and can be changed if needed. 

I think most of us get that Congress doesn't actually work like a stupid Aaron Sorkin script and that duty and impassioned speeches aren't what drive elected representatives. Every decision is made with political considerations in mind and they take time to think through those considerations. But every one of them swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution and if there was ever to be a time they need to at least fucking pretend like they take it seriously it's now (last Thursday really).

Congress was given the power of impeachment because it is supposed to be the most important of the "co-equal" branches of government. The founders didn't give the President the power to dissolve Congress, but they gave Congress the power to remove a President, precisely for situations like this. If there ever was a time for the Speaker of the House to say "fuck it, this is what we're going to fucking do and you all better be on board," it was to impeach this fucker last Thursday. The GOP Senators should have been forced to twist in the wind trying to explain their opposition to removal instead of given the opportunity to put their heads together and start pumping out talking points about "unity" over the weekend.

Edited January 11, 2021 by wildcat09

[Guest Lobo]

So Trump insults Heidi Cruz for the ugly, disgusting vile human being she is.  And Cruz has spent four years metaphorically sucking Trump's dick.  To the point where his colleagues are considering invoking the 14th Amendment to remove Senator Cruz from office.  

Trump ostensibly puts a bounty on the head of Vice President Pence for all to see.  And Pence now refuses to remove him from office,  fails to denounce his unethical behavior, and is also resumed sucking the taint-juice from Donald Trump's orange undercarriage.  

I can't wait to see what you Trumpers have planned for the third version of this.  He causes the murder of one of your children and you end up block-walking to raise money for this Presidential History Center?  

Seriously, where does this go?  One spineless man after another just keep falling on swords for this guy.  And somehow they're all considered Alpha Males?  Am I the only one raised with a completely alternate set of leadership ideals?  It's one thing to follow political ideologues, but some of y'all worship at the altar of one of the weakest men in history.  He has almost no prototypical male qualities other than womanizing (but he has to pay for it).  Can we get a sanctioned thread on DT with no names...where we can just have a frank discussion about what "leadership" and "being a man" look like in terms of traits.  No specifics, no names, just an exchange about what it means to be a True Man in the 21st century in the West.  I'd be genuinely curious what attributes y'all strive to live up to as males, as Americans, as husbands, as men of faith, as fathers.  I'm being dead serious, no politics.  Just a thread about what we think it means to be a male, and to be a leader in all walks of life.   I sense a disconnect.  

Edited January 11, 2021 by Lobo

[burntorangebongos 10681]

Hmm, so this may be the other side of the vise on the republicans. Maybe the water just got a lot hotter to get them to agree to accountability. 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by burntorangebongos

[Jiggy-Z 3432]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Procedural excuses are just that, excuses.  Congress can move as quickly as it wants on this.  The problem is letting the insurrectionists obstruct without consequences. 

I spoke with a friend of mine who is up in DC and a lifelong democrat.

His theory was that the House would move on a vote now but not send articles over to the senate until after 100 days, so as not to give Trump any more oxygen.

During that time more conspiracy evidence would become available and provide enough proof to convict.

I am not sure where he got this from or if it is already "out there" or if this even works that way.  I was skeptical.  Seems like these guys should do their damn jobs.

I would be good to get the senate to go on record, but what other avenues are available if impeachment dies in the senate.  Do it again later?  Frustrating.

...meanwhile we have whatever mayhem is going to happen between now and 1/20 or beyond.

[Hurtlocker 2208]

On 1/9/2021 at 11:05 PM, Patrick Bateman said:

You just wake up from a coma?

 

Little clarification here, most of this requires two steps, impeachment and conviction.    He won't lose any of that if you impeach him, just like he didn't already lose it for being impeached.   If the Senate convicts him, however, he will, at least partially.   He won't get his pension at least.

On the travel allowance, I don't think that's a thing.   They do get SS protection for life, which is an expense, but I'm not sure he actually would lose this if convicted.  This falls under the Former Presidents Act.   It would be interesting to see the government argue the case on if he's "former" if convicted or if it is kind of like annulling a marriage, but it isn't guaranteed.

Also, I do not believe conviction keeps him from running again, at any level.   As someone mentioned earlier, my apologies for not wanting to sift through the find the post, Congress would need to draft something up specifically to keep him out of office.   At first I thought this may be triggered if he is convicted of a felony, of which he'll have plenty of opportunities to defend against once he leaves office, but I don't think that would automatically trigger the inability to run again either.

[Js1 85085]

 

[Neonmoon 38127]

I think the most likely scenario is this. House votes to impeach on Tuesday, but since the senate won’t unanimously vote to reconvene and that means the earliest they could hear it would be 24 hours after receiving the articles, so either 20th or 21st. They will get Ga Senators sworn in, and start approving Biden cabinet picks. House won’t deliver articles of impeachment until important country shit is taken care of, then they will deliver articles to Senate. Senate needs 2/3 majority to convict. by then, maybe enough Republicans will have been convinced to convict so he can never hold office again. 

[Foosters 17725]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

I think the most likely scenario is this. House votes to impeach on Tuesday, but since the senate won’t unanimously vote to reconvene and that means the earliest they could hear it would be 24 hours after receiving the articles, so either 20th or 21st. They will get Ga Senators sworn in, and start approving Biden cabinet picks. House won’t deliver articles of impeachment until important country shit is taken care of, then they will deliver articles to Senate. Senate needs 2/3 majority to convict. by then, maybe enough Republicans will have been convinced to convict so he can never hold office again. 

There's also a chance that the GOP Senators will have the opportunity to gaze upon more dead Amercians before they are asked to vote. Obviously this wont sway the majority of them as that is their desired goal, but who knows how things will look in 3-7 days.

[RDCanecutter 26246]

So say I go knock over a liquor store. When the cops catch up to me, I just tell the judge to drop charges-- I'm gonna leave town in a few days anyway.

[Neonmoon 38127]

3 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

So say I go knock over a liquor store. When the cops catch up to me, I just tell the judge to drop charges-- I'm gonna leave town in a few days anyway.

You should also tell the liquor store you’re disappointed in their lack of care for unity