(Hypothetical) Had the Trump mob gotten the Electoral Ballots... what do you think the Elected Republicans would have done?

[horn4life 3755]

What if......

What if the Trump supporter mob did gain possession of the electoral ballots, and destroyed them?  Would this have changed history?  Might have President Trump declared martial law?  Would the GOP members of the Senate and House go along with whatever Trump did, as they have the last 4 years?  Would they endorse a delay in certification and require all the states to reconvene and replace all the documents?  Would many in the GOP break ranks with the President and insist on confirming the count of the electoral college that certified Biden President?

I would really, really like to believe that the GOP would come to it's collective sense and do the right thing for Democracy.  But there is another side of me that says, there are no moral constraints in today's GOP. That along with the endless embrace and support of outright lies regarding the vote in 2020, they might very well go along and support Trump's martial law declaration., insist on repeating the electoral process, state by state and allow chaos.

Just curious as to what you think would have happened had the electoral ballots been destroyed or held hostage by the mob?  I think we really, really, really, may have dodged a bullet here. I am curious about what you think might have unfolded in this scenario? 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by horn4life

[David Dennison 18657]

It would have just delayed the inevitable. The states would forward replacement documents and Congress would eventually count the votes. 

As for martial law, I'm not sure of the extent to which such an order would have been followed. 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by David Dennison

[wildcat09 29253]

There is a 0% chance more than a handful of elected Republicans would ever under any circumstances do the morally right thing.

[JimmyJames 12271]

9 minutes ago, horn4life said:

What if......

What if the Trump supporter mob did gain possession of the electoral ballots, and destroyed them?  Would this have changed history?  Might have President Trump declared martial law?  Would the GOP members of the Senate and House go along with whatever Trump did, as they have the last 4 years?  Would they endorse a delay in certification and require all the states to reconvene and replace all the documents?  Would many in the GOP break ranks with the President and insist on confirming the count of the electoral college that certified Biden President?

I would really, really like to believe that the GOP would come to it's collective sense and do the right thing for Democracy.  But there is another side of me that says, there are no moral constraints in today's GOP. That along with the endless embrace and support of outright lies regarding the vote in 2020, they might very well go along and support Trump's martial law declaration., insist on repeating the electoral process, state by state and allow chaos.

Just curious as to what you think would have happened had the electoral ballots been destroyed or held hostage by the mob?  I think we really, really, really, may have dodged a bullet here. I am curious about what you think might have unfolded in this scenario? 

 

This is an easy answer.

They would have declared the election invalid, claimed that since nobody had enough electoral votes that the decision had to go the House delegations of each state and since republicans have a majority of house delegations (26 of them), they would have elected Donald Trump to be president.

That was the entire goal of the thing.

[TwiceHorn 31278]

Doesn't quite go along with your scenario, but the Electoral Count Act, as well as pertinent state laws, provide for multiple copies of the electoral "certificates."  The Senate is but one copy.  

The scenarios envisioned by the Trumpists are really fantastical, fever dream stuff.  It seems like the most linear path to their desires would have been for Pence to reject the objected-to electoral certificates and accept the illegitimate proposed ones in their stead, thereby giving Trump the majority.  But I am not sure that all of the contested states proposed illegitimate ones.

If that process had not resulted in a majority of the electoral votes, then it would have gone to the House, with one vote per state.  I believe there are more R majorities than D, so that ostensibly would have gone for Trump, but maybe not.

Then I believe the Supreme Court would invalidate the process by which Pence rejected and selected, and we'd be where we ended up.

Edited January 10, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[David Dennison 18657]

2 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

This is an easy answer.

They would have declared the election invalid, claimed that since nobody had enough electoral votes that the decision had to go the House delegations of each state and since republicans have a majority of house delegations (26 of them), they would have elected Donald Trump to be president.

That was the entire goal of the thing.

They don't have that power. Stealing the documents don't change the electoral votes. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

They don't have that power. Stealing the documents don't change the electoral votes. 

You're right. They don't. They also don't care. They would have tried to do it anyway. The goal of the insurrection was to halt the process in its tracks so somehow eventually 26 republican house delegations would elect him president.

It may seem stupid and insane. But that was the goal.

 

[Surly Bevo 24696]

 

[hpslugga 4044]

10 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Doesn't quite go along with your scenario, but the Electoral Count Act, as well as pertinent state laws, provide for multiple copies of the electoral "certificates."  The Senate is but one copy.  

The scenarios envisioned by the Trumpists are really fantastical, fever dream stuff.  It seems like the most linear path to their desires would have been for Pence to reject the objected-to electoral certificates and accept the illegitimate proposed ones in their stead, thereby giving Trump the majority.  But I am not sure that all of the contested states proposed illegitimate ones.

If that process had not resulted in a majority of the electoral votes, then it would have gone to the House, with one vote per state.  I believe there are more R majorities than D, so that ostensibly would have gone for Trump, but maybe not.

Then I believe the Supreme Court would invalidate the process by which Pence rejected and selected, and we'd be where we ended up.

Beat me to it. I think the electors have to sign like 5-6 different documents certifying their votes, which would be easily accessible by Pence and the Congress. What they attempted is analogous to if some aggy stole one of the UT footballs on the final drive of the 2011 game and their fans claimed the game was over since that particular ball couldn’t be used by the team. Such is the mind of the citizens of The Fairy Land of Make Believe and Pretend.

[horn4life 3755]

18 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Doesn't quite go along with your scenario, but the Electoral Count Act, as well as pertinent state laws, provide for multiple copies of the electoral "certificates."  The Senate is but one copy.  

The scenarios envisioned by the Trumpists are really fantastical, fever dream stuff.  It seems like the most linear path to their desires would have been for Pence to reject the objected-to electoral certificates and accept the illegitimate proposed ones in their stead, thereby giving Trump the majority.  But I am not sure that all of the contested states proposed illegitimate ones.

If that process had not resulted in a majority of the electoral votes, then it would have gone to the House, with one vote per state.  I believe there are more R majorities than D, so that ostensibly would have gone for Trump, but maybe not.

Then I believe the Supreme Court would invalidate the process by which Pence rejected and selected, and we'd be where we ended up.

THANKS!

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Nothing.......the paper ballots are just the last link in the trail of at least 3-6 previous steps in the process.

[wildcat09 29253]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

They don't have that power. Stealing the documents don't change the electoral votes. 

It’s funny, you say this like it matters.

[Post Oak 20184]

Whatever they did you can guarantee that the words courage and integrity would not be used to describe it.

[morehornsepower 867]

If several Democrats were dead/detained/coerced...is it possible that both houses could have voted to sustain objections to state results?  And in that case...wouldn't they have been tossed out?  Or, more likely, would that have been enough for Trump to declare martial law?

Every time I think we're safe...the Trumpists move the goalposts and try an even more terrifying stunt...

[Beau Vine 54001]

[tx 3 putt 76380]

They would have called for a new election,  but only in states that dumbass lost 

[atomheartbevo 89446]

National Archives still had a certified copy - they were one of the recipients of copies of the certified ballots.

[Texas Jeff 1932]

I looked it up.  Each state electoral college assembly makes six copies:

• One to be sent to the President of the Senate
• Two to be held by that state's Secretary of State.  One of those is held for a year and the other is subject to the order of the President of the Senate.
• Two to be sent to the Archivist of the United States.  Same deal as the states, one copy for the records and one copy to be sent to the Senate if needed.
• The last copy goes to the district judge where the electors assembled, so I assume the Travis Co judge for Texas.

The two copies held for the records for a year are subject to public inspection, so in theory you could demand to see it and they might say come on down.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

National Archives still had a certified copy - they were one of the recipients of copies of the certified ballots.

So they were storming the wrong building ?

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Doesn't quite go along with your scenario, but the Electoral Count Act, as well as pertinent state laws, provide for multiple copies of the electoral "certificates."  The Senate is but one copy.  

The scenarios envisioned by the Trumpists are really fantastical, fever dream stuff.  It seems like the most linear path to their desires would have been for Pence to reject the objected-to electoral certificates and accept the illegitimate proposed ones in their stead, thereby giving Trump the majority.  But I am not sure that all of the contested states proposed illegitimate ones.

If that process had not resulted in a majority of the electoral votes, then it would have gone to the House, with one vote per state.  I believe there are more R majorities than D, so that ostensibly would have gone for Trump, but maybe not.

Then I believe the Supreme Court would invalidate the process by which Pence rejected and selected, and we'd be where we ended up.

This is correct.  Multiple copies.  Morons invading the capitol were just toy soldiers wound up by Diaper Don to show force.  Show his influence.  Not actually stop a legislative act.

 

[wildcat09 29253]

You people seem to think that if the mob had captured and executed Congressional Democrats that the existence of copies of the electoral votes would’ve mattered.

My question for y’all is simply: why?

[Foosters 17733]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

You people seem to think that if the mob had captured and executed Congressional Democrats that the existence of copies of the electoral votes would’ve mattered.

My question for y’all is simply: why?

Right. Are they under the impression that violent coups throughout history could've been prevented with better procedural statutes in place?

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

1 hour ago, horn4life said:

What if......

What if the Trump supporter mob did gain possession of the electoral ballots, and destroyed them?  Would this have changed history?  Might have President Trump declared martial law?  Would the GOP members of the Senate and House go along with whatever Trump did, as they have the last 4 years?  Would they endorse a delay in certification and require all the states to reconvene and replace all the documents?  Would many in the GOP break ranks with the President and insist on confirming the count of the electoral college that certified Biden President?

----Clipped----

Just curious as to what you think would have happened had the electoral ballots been destroyed or held hostage by the mob?  I think we really, really, really, may have dodged a bullet here. I am curious about what you think might have unfolded in this scenario? 

 

Since you asked several questions, if I may I'm going to (hypothetically) give a scenario that is only my opinion. I have no special take, just someone on the internet hiding behind a keyboard/phone and monitor and someone who just spent some time reading this rather excellent article posted by @lemonlime in another thread. I'll see if I can link it here:
 

If you travel to the post click on the spoiler as I believe the NY Times has a paywall but in this instance, I wish they would broadcast it. It has influenced my already biased opinion.

So, for the  rest of it, I'm going to spoiler my two cents for those that don't want to read. I think there have been 6 or more replies while I was typing this so excuse me if it ends up echoing someone else's similar views. It was unintentional.

Spoiler

Just curious as to what you think would have happened had the electoral ballots been destroyed or held hostage by the mob?

Had the mob reached the point where the ballots were 'captured,' and I'm using that term intentionally, then I'm going to presume that there were other events that had already occurred. That the room had not been cleared in time, that there were casualties, that there may even have been hostages. In other words, chaos.

 

In light of the picture becoming clearer, it seems that there were those on the inside that most likely were complicit: whether an elected official, a Capitol LEO group.

And there were those on the outside: the picture of some trying to 'blend' with the crowd that appeared to be moving with intent seems to support that.

I am also reminded of those on the satellite fringes:

Rudy calling people to delay along with Trump trying again to reach governors for example.

And the mostly invisible but ever present: people like Roger Stone--friend of the Proud Boys and most special friend of the President--you know, the one who can give him information pertinent to overthrowing a government. Roger was instrumental in the group overcoming the offices of the count in 2001. He says, 'oh, no, I wasn't there, I was on the campaign bus.' Which, if you will recall, was parked on the street outside. Uh-huh, Roger. An unpunished and now pardoned Stone is no different than Trump. He will carry on.

Stephen Miller, who can plausibly deny his own mother giving birth, would not have been sitting idle when he has a chance to remake America for the white makes right wetdream of his fantasy. General Flynn was a distraction to make sure people are looking at the crazies: the mob that gives cover to the attack.

Out of this chaos, you have the now obtained ballots. The physical ballots are irrelevant. Depending upon who is alive and who is dead, the chaos is enough and the insurrection is enough that the coup holds enough power to welcome to the stage the President who will most likely invoke the Insurrection Act.

I believe when he does this, he issues a proclamation to give the terrorists the opportunity to disperse peacefully. If that does not happen then the EO to issue the Act happens. (correct me if I'm wrong) If you will recall, a subgroup of protestors were quoted as saying they were going to stay all night. What I do not know is if that group was one of the 'crazy' factions or not. So, they don't disperse (the serious ones that know what they're doing).

The real question comes down then to whether there are enough people remaining in the Pentagon to see this for what it is and stay the course of the Constitution or who would follow the newly installed Pentagon Trump loyalists. I like to think the military brass, with their strongly worded letter, say no bueno and the troops listen, but in times of chaos, much can happen. For example, the Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo is smart, first in his class at West Point, experienced in CIA tactics, backed by some very wealthy people, ambitious, and powered by a religious zeal, and did I mention ambitious? A coup that is successful may not end up with the leader who stays the leader, it can also end up with the person who was waiting in the wings. Just because Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz think they have this in the bag does not mean that someone else is just as smart and outflanks them. Remember, Pompeo didn't go to Yale, but he did go to Harvard Law so he's got the military knowledge they lack. Sucks to their assmar.

After that, I cannot say, other than it would be bloody, messy and chaotic. A leader would emerge, but which one? Trump, supported by those who know they can remove him at their leisure and install whomever they please? Someone else in the line of succession now that Pence, Pelosi, etc have been removed?

Let's be very thankful that thus far, it is stalled, but read the article if you haven't because it is not over by a long shot.

 

 

[Texas Jeff 1932]

Also, the National Archives publishes digital scans of what they received here:

https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/2020

Check 'em out ... same stuff the House and Senate tellers were looking at when they announced the vote.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

Oh, and I'd like to add to the writing that I spoilered: exactly what @wildcat09 says, none of the copies or all that would've mattered essentially. The ensuing chaos, the Act being invoked would've been enough for issues at a state level to be difficult to overcome. Many dead reps in Congress means chaos at a state level. Other opportunists jump on board, in other words a successful overthrow of a legitimate election and the installation of a dictator.

[wildcat09 29253]

6 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Right. Are they under the impression that violent coups throughout history could've been prevented with better procedural statutes in place?

"HEY Q Shaman! Look man, I just realized we fucked up! I thought the Constitution said we could do a coup this way but I misread it! Fuck man, we've gotta get everyone to stop and go home!"

[horn4life 3755]

DAMN - I was WAAAAaaaayyyyyy too innocent in my thinking.  As I see more footage showing the scale of violence, and the number of folks in the crowd with apparent military experience and hearing some of the chants and availability of zip ties?  This could have been a SHITLOAD worse that just screwing around with the electoral ballots.

The thing that was brought to my attention today was the additional information that the one Officer who was being chased back in retreat actually retreated away from the Senate Chamber during the early breach.  Some VERY quick thinking, and the sort of person who SHOULD receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom, not some jackass, like child abuse sympathizer Representative Jim Jordan. 

Anyhow I wonder what would have happened had that mob simply turned right, instead of pursue the officer to the left?  REALLY fucking scary shit out President fomented.

Edited January 11, 2021 by horn4life

[JimmyJames 12271]

5 hours ago, horn4life said:

DAMN - I was WAAAAaaaayyyyyy too innocent in my thinking.  As I see more footage showing the scale of violence, and the number of folks in the crowd with apparent military experience and hearing some of the chants and availability of zip ties?  This could have been a SHITLOAD worse that just screwing around with the electoral ballots.

The thing that was brought to my attention today was the additional information that the one Officer who was being chased back in retreat actually retreated away from the Senate Chamber during the early breach.  Some VERY quick thinking, and the sort of person who SHOULD receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom, not some jackass, like child abuse sympathizer Representative Jim Jordan. 

Anyhow I wonder what would have happened had that mob simply turned right, instead of pursue the officer to the left?  REALLY fucking scary shit out President fomented.

Although we can’t know for sure my guess is a lot of the mob would have gotten shot and the rest would have backed off. I guess it depends on who was still in there then though.

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

What SHOULD have happened has already been posted. Other certified copies are brought in and we do it again with them. 
now, had it actually happened would the republicans tried to skirt the law and get it to the lege and have Trump declared the winner, ready to act incredulous when Biden is forced to go to the federal court system and ask them to reverse it on constitutional grounds?

well at least one rep tweeted on Wednesday while they were hunkered down that Congress was adjourned and they should do exactly that.  So yeah I bet they would have tried.  Don’t know who gets to make that call or if the speaker or anyone else could prevent it.