All Encompassing Mortgage and Real Estate Thread

[UTPhil2006 3807]

5 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Thanks gents. That was contrary to my expectation because I thought the whole flipping business was built on ROI through renos. I might then simply swap some appliances and fixtures to give it a superficial boost and because we can do it ourselves. 

Flips are usually well well below standard otherwise the juice isn’t worth the squeeze, and they’re doing full house renovations (if not full on tear down).. in your instance it’s just a bathroom and kitchen and in all likelihood, you’re gonna spend x amount of money and not increase the value by that much. Also by renovating the kitchen and bathroom a lot of the times you’re doing it to your likes/wants etc whereas someone may have wanted to tear it out anyway and create the kitchen to their liking, so in essence you’re redoing the kitchen and potentially alienating buyers as well. 

[Gil Bang 25950]

19 hours ago, closetohumping said:

Buyer or sellers market?  Parts of SoCal are going  still crazy

FIFY

[UTPhil2006 3807]

On 3/12/2024 at 7:52 AM, UTPhil2006 said:

Still early but so far we can consider this a win. Maybe a walk off balk win, but a win nonetheless 

Market filed a protest and the protest was granted. No longer a win. More hot inflation data and we’ve blasted through 4.2xx and growing 

[Neonmoon 38129]

Those June cuts looking more like September cuts now. 

[UTPhil2006 3807]

18 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Those June cuts looking more like September cuts now. 

Yup. And someone can call Mat Ishbia and let him know his 100bps Refi program is now DOA except for the about 4 hours it was useful. 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

2 hours ago, UTPhil2006 said:

Yup. And someone can call Mat Ishbia and let him know his 100bps Refi program is now DOA except for the about 4 hours it was useful. 

I went refinance hunting Friday. 4 deals. Should have been 12. That’s the last time I get to do that for a while I bet. 

[UTPhil2006 3807]

..aaand we’ve officially wiped out all the gains we made and are back to 2 week and March highs and pushed through 4.3xx. Beware the ides of March indeed 

[KYHorn 17046]

Powerful Realtor Group Agrees to Slash Commissions to Settle Lawsuits

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/15/realestate/national-association-realtors-commission-settlement.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20240315&instance_id=117691&nl=from-the-times&regi_id=141347410&segment_id=160894&te=1&user_id=5edae170e2c7f9e85eb5207073ecafed

Spoiler

 

The National Association of Realtors will pay $418 million in damages and will amend several rules that housing experts say will drive down housing costs.

 

The cost of selling a home in the United States could shrink as a result of a global settlement with the National Association of Realtors. Credit...Tony Cenicola/The New York Times

By Debra Kamin

March 15, 2024, 9:35 a.m. ET

American homeowners could see a significant drop in the cost of selling their homes after a real estate trade group agreed to a landmark deal that will eliminate a bedrock of the industry, the 6 percent sales commission.

The National Association of Realtors, a powerful organization that has set the guidelines for home sales for decades, has agreed to settle a series of lawsuits by paying $418 million in damages and by eliminating its rules on commissions. Legal counsel for N.A.R. approved the agreement early Friday morning, and The New York Times obtained a copy of the signed document.

The deal, which lawyers anticipate will be filed within weeks and still needs a federal court’s approval, would end a multitude of legal claims from home sellers who argued that the rules forced them to pay excessive fees. Representatives for N.A.R. were not immediately available for comment.

Housing experts said the deal, and the expected savings for homeowners, could trigger one of the most significant jolts in the U.S. housing market in 100 years. “This will blow up the market and would force a new business model,” said Norm Miller, a professor emeritus of real estate at the University of San Diego.

Americans pay roughly $100 billion in real estate commissions annually, and real estate agents in the United States have some of the highest standard commissions in the world. In many other countries, commission rates hover between 1 and 3 percent. In the United States, most agents specify a commission of 5 or 6 percent, paid by the seller. If the buyer has an agent, the seller’s agent agrees to share a portion of the commission with that agent when listing the home on the market.

An American homeowner currently looking to sell a $1 million home should expect to spend up to $60,000 on real estate commissions alone, with $30,000 going to his agent and $30,000 going to the agent who brings a buyer. Even for a home that costs $400,000 — close to the current median for homes across the United States — sellers are still paying around $24,000 in commissions, a cost that is baked into the final sales price of the home.

Turmoil at the National Association of Realtors

The powerful real estate group, which is the largest professional organization in the United States, has come under increasing scrutiny.

• Losing Its Grip: The National Association of Realtors, which was delivered a one-two punch of scandals in 2023, is facing competition from a new trade group that was started by two prominent real estate agents.
• Sudden Exits: The president of the N.A.R. resigned after just four months into her tenure, becoming the group’s second president to abruptly step down. The N.A.R.’s chief executive also recently resigned.
• Harassment Allegations: The leadership exits come after The New York Times exposed complaints of sexual harassment in the N.A.R., including allegations against the group’s former president.
• Commissions Conspiracy: In an antitrust lawsuit, a federal jury ruled that the N.A.R. and several large brokerages had conspired to inflate artificially the commissions paid to real estate agents.

The lawsuits argued that N.A.R., and brokerages who required their agents to be members of N.A.R., had violated antitrust laws by mandating that the seller’s agent make an offer of payment to the buyer’s agent, and setting rules that led to an industrywide standard commission of 5 or 6 percent. Without that rate essentially guaranteed, agents will now most likely have to lower their commissions as they compete for business.

Economists estimate that commissions could now be reduced by 30 percent, driving down home prices across the board. The opening of a free market for Realtor compensation could mirror the shake-up that occurred in the travel industry with the emergence of online broker sites such as Expedia and Kayak.

“The forces of competition will be let loose,” said Benjamin Brown, co-chairman of the antitrust practice at Cohen Milstein and one of the lawyers who hammered out the settlement. “You’ll see some new pricing models, and some new and creative ways to provide services to home buyers. It’ll be a really exciting time for the industry.”

 

The original lawsuit, filed in April 2019 by a group of Missouri home sellers, ended in a verdict of $1.8 billion in October. Because the suit included accusations of antitrust violations, plaintiffs could have been eligible for triple damages of up to $5.4 billion. In exchange for the reduction in damages, the association gave up its right to appeal. The verdict sent shock waves through the real estate industry and has since catalyzed into more than a dozen copycat suits across the country, including a nationwide class-action case that ensnares the country’s largest brokerage and its owner, Warren E. Buffett. That brokerage, Berkshire Hathaway, has not settled, but others, including Keller Williams and Re/Max, have settled in separate cases. N.A.R. now joins them.

 

Under the settlement, tens of millions of home sellers will likely be eligible to receive a small piece of a consolidated class-action payout.

The legal loss struck a blow to the power wielded by the organization, which has long been considered untouchable, insulated by its influence. Founded in 1908, N.A.R. has more than $1 billion in assets, 1.3 million members and a political action committee that pours millions into the coffers of candidates across the political spectrum.

The antitrust division of the Department of Justice is continuing its investigation of N.A.R.’s practices, including the organization’s oversight of databases for home listings, called multiple listing sites or the M.L.S. The sites are owned and operated by N.A.R.’s local affiliates. For decades, the Justice Department has questioned whether these databases stifle competition and whether some N.A.R. rules foster price-fixing on commissions.

Some experts said the shift on commission structure, and the billions of dollars that would flow into the housing market as a result, could spark a recovery in the housing market, going so far as to say that it could be as significant as the 1930s New Deal, a flurry of legislation and executive orders signed by President Franklin D. Roosevelt designed to stabilize and rebuild the nation’s economic recovery following the Great Depression. This included the Better Housing Program, which was designed to make housing and mortgages more accessible and led to the creation of the Federal Housing Administration. The financial crisis of 2008, when home values imploded, and earlier changes to the mortgage industry in the 1970s and 1980s, including the creation of Freddie Mac and the introduction of the adjustable rate mortgage, also set off permanent transformations. With Friday’s settlement, the process of buying and selling a home is now in for another historical change.

“This will be a really fundamental shift in how Americans buy, search for, and purchase and sell their housing. It will absolutely transform the real estate industry,” said Max Besbris, an associate professor of sociology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and the author of “Upsold,” a book exploring the link between housing prices and the real estate business. “It will prompt one of the biggest transformations to the housing market since New Deal-era regulations were put in place.”

 

Image

 

“N.A.R. is finally out of the business of forcing homeowners to pay inflated commissions,” said Michael Ketchmark, the Kansas City lawyer behind the home sellers’ legal triumph.Credit...Brett Pruitt at East Market Studios

The October verdict landed at a time of swirling controversy for the organization, and in the last five months, its internal turmoil reached a fever pitch. Its chief executive, Bob Goldberg, announced in a closed-door meeting that he would retire, just days after the verdict. His exit followed that of N.A.R. president Kenny Parcell, who resigned in August two days after a Times investigation revealed widespread allegations of sexual harassment.

In January, N.A.R.’s new president, Tracy Kasper, who had stepped into the role early with a pledge of reshaping the organization’s culture and fighting the lawsuits at all costs, announced her own sudden exit after N.A.R. said Ms. Kasper was the target of blackmail.

Despite N.A.R.’s turbulence over the last several months, however, there was one constant: their insistence that the lawsuits were flawed and they intended to appeal. With Friday’s settlement agreement, N.A.R. gave up the fight.

The settlement includes many significant rule changes. It bans N.A.R. from establishing any sort of rules that would allow a seller’s agent to set compensation for a buyer’s agent, a practice that critics say has long led to “steering,” in which buyers’ agents direct their clients to pricier homes in a bid to collect a bigger commission check.

And on the online databases used to buy and sell homes, the M.L.S., the settlement requires that any fields displaying broker compensation be eliminated entirely. It also places a blanket ban on the longtime requirement that agents subscribe to multiple listing services in the first place in order to offer or accept compensation for their work.

N.A.R. has repeatedly insisted that it does not own multiple listing sites, but the majority of them are owned and operated by the local Realtor associations that operate as N.A.R. subsidiaries. Now, with the settlement effectively severing the link between agent compensation and MLS access, many agents are likely to rethink their membership in the association.

“The reset button on the sale of homes was hit today,” said Michael Ketchmark, the Kansas City lawyer who represented the home sellers in the main lawsuit. “Anyone who owns a home or dreams of owning one will benefit tremendously from this settlement.”

 

[UTPhil2006 3807]

In regards to the Kayak and Expedia analogy.. it’s been shown that OpenDoor and RedFin agent or whatever it’s called are not valuable services. Yeah they’re cheaper but how much are you leaving on the table on price and negotiation 

[jdhorn92 1548]

No more 6% commish.  Going to be a lot of realtors hitting the road.  How is the buyer's agent going to be paid?  Are they saying a listing will now have a 3% commission to the seller's agent? (which will not be published anymore).  

  Say the house is $500K.  When the buyer presents offer, will it say $500K (for example) , with a 2% buyer's agent commission? So the selling agent makes 3% ($15K ) and buyer's agent $10K... the seller walks away with the difference?  I suppose the negotiation will now have 3 parts minimum: 

1. what the seller's agent commission will be... i could see some sellers being emboldened now and telling their agent to lower their take

2. what the transaction price will be

3. what the buyer's agent will make

All of that likely happens anyway, but now it will be much more up in the air.  I see in the ruling, where everything must be in writing aka a listing and showing agreement.  Seems like not much will change in the end, other than there will be a ton more horse trading during the presentation of the offer.

[Gil Bang 25950]

I have plenty to say but I have difficulty typing today...in the middle of treatment for Dupetren's.  Just got injected. 

 

 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

My favorite is going to be- fuck that shit I ain't showing that house when the listing agent is keeping all the commission or giving away 1/2 a percent or 1% or something like that. 

Fuck- if agents are so worthless (and some are- but don't deal with those agents- find one that's not worthless) - just go ahead and fisbo- you pay nothing then, right?  And it always works out so well.  Look, I don't even like the typical agent, but this whole things is D U M dumb. 

[Skipper 6135]

19 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

but this whole things is D U M dumb. 

The entire industry is fucking dumb.  Hopefully this helps but I remain skeptical.  It absolutely has been a consistent violation of antitrust laws.  And all the asshole realtors work together to make sure to limit the market if anyone isn't playing their rigged game.  It's all they know and I highly doubt this settlement will change that aspect.   I bought both my houses in relatively 'cool' markets making it clear my purchase offer would reflect no buyer's fee and had numerous agents refuse to show me a house if I wasn't represented.  Then it was beyond obvious when I tried a FSBO with a buddy with MLS putting the listing up that the local neighborhood realtor mafia blackballed my house and I had very few showings.  I rented out my house which ended up working out fine.  But it's a shady business with 90% of the Agent's largely incompetent and adding little to no value.  

[tx 3 putt 76932]

7 hours ago, KYHorn said:

Powerful Realtor Group Agrees to Slash Commissions to Settle Lawsuits

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/15/realestate/national-association-realtors-commission-settlement.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20240315&instance_id=117691&nl=from-the-times&regi_id=141347410&segment_id=160894&te=1&user_id=5edae170e2c7f9e85eb5207073ecafed

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The National Association of Realtors will pay $418 million in damages and will amend several rules that housing experts say will drive down housing costs.

 

The cost of selling a home in the United States could shrink as a result of a global settlement with the National Association of Realtors. Credit...Tony Cenicola/The New York Times

By Debra Kamin

March 15, 2024, 9:35 a.m. ET

American homeowners could see a significant drop in the cost of selling their homes after a real estate trade group agreed to a landmark deal that will eliminate a bedrock of the industry, the 6 percent sales commission.

The National Association of Realtors, a powerful organization that has set the guidelines for home sales for decades, has agreed to settle a series of lawsuits by paying $418 million in damages and by eliminating its rules on commissions. Legal counsel for N.A.R. approved the agreement early Friday morning, and The New York Times obtained a copy of the signed document.

The deal, which lawyers anticipate will be filed within weeks and still needs a federal court’s approval, would end a multitude of legal claims from home sellers who argued that the rules forced them to pay excessive fees. Representatives for N.A.R. were not immediately available for comment.

Housing experts said the deal, and the expected savings for homeowners, could trigger one of the most significant jolts in the U.S. housing market in 100 years. “This will blow up the market and would force a new business model,” said Norm Miller, a professor emeritus of real estate at the University of San Diego.

Americans pay roughly $100 billion in real estate commissions annually, and real estate agents in the United States have some of the highest standard commissions in the world. In many other countries, commission rates hover between 1 and 3 percent. In the United States, most agents specify a commission of 5 or 6 percent, paid by the seller. If the buyer has an agent, the seller’s agent agrees to share a portion of the commission with that agent when listing the home on the market.

An American homeowner currently looking to sell a $1 million home should expect to spend up to $60,000 on real estate commissions alone, with $30,000 going to his agent and $30,000 going to the agent who brings a buyer. Even for a home that costs $400,000 — close to the current median for homes across the United States — sellers are still paying around $24,000 in commissions, a cost that is baked into the final sales price of the home.

Turmoil at the National Association of Realtors

The powerful real estate group, which is the largest professional organization in the United States, has come under increasing scrutiny.

• Losing Its Grip: The National Association of Realtors, which was delivered a one-two punch of scandals in 2023, is facing competition from a new trade group that was started by two prominent real estate agents.
• Sudden Exits: The president of the N.A.R. resigned after just four months into her tenure, becoming the group’s second president to abruptly step down. The N.A.R.’s chief executive also recently resigned.
• Harassment Allegations: The leadership exits come after The New York Times exposed complaints of sexual harassment in the N.A.R., including allegations against the group’s former president.
• Commissions Conspiracy: In an antitrust lawsuit, a federal jury ruled that the N.A.R. and several large brokerages had conspired to inflate artificially the commissions paid to real estate agents.

The lawsuits argued that N.A.R., and brokerages who required their agents to be members of N.A.R., had violated antitrust laws by mandating that the seller’s agent make an offer of payment to the buyer’s agent, and setting rules that led to an industrywide standard commission of 5 or 6 percent. Without that rate essentially guaranteed, agents will now most likely have to lower their commissions as they compete for business.

Economists estimate that commissions could now be reduced by 30 percent, driving down home prices across the board. The opening of a free market for Realtor compensation could mirror the shake-up that occurred in the travel industry with the emergence of online broker sites such as Expedia and Kayak.

“The forces of competition will be let loose,” said Benjamin Brown, co-chairman of the antitrust practice at Cohen Milstein and one of the lawyers who hammered out the settlement. “You’ll see some new pricing models, and some new and creative ways to provide services to home buyers. It’ll be a really exciting time for the industry.”

 

The original lawsuit, filed in April 2019 by a group of Missouri home sellers, ended in a verdict of $1.8 billion in October. Because the suit included accusations of antitrust violations, plaintiffs could have been eligible for triple damages of up to $5.4 billion. In exchange for the reduction in damages, the association gave up its right to appeal. The verdict sent shock waves through the real estate industry and has since catalyzed into more than a dozen copycat suits across the country, including a nationwide class-action case that ensnares the country’s largest brokerage and its owner, Warren E. Buffett. That brokerage, Berkshire Hathaway, has not settled, but others, including Keller Williams and Re/Max, have settled in separate cases. N.A.R. now joins them.

 

Under the settlement, tens of millions of home sellers will likely be eligible to receive a small piece of a consolidated class-action payout.

The legal loss struck a blow to the power wielded by the organization, which has long been considered untouchable, insulated by its influence. Founded in 1908, N.A.R. has more than $1 billion in assets, 1.3 million members and a political action committee that pours millions into the coffers of candidates across the political spectrum.

The antitrust division of the Department of Justice is continuing its investigation of N.A.R.’s practices, including the organization’s oversight of databases for home listings, called multiple listing sites or the M.L.S. The sites are owned and operated by N.A.R.’s local affiliates. For decades, the Justice Department has questioned whether these databases stifle competition and whether some N.A.R. rules foster price-fixing on commissions.

Some experts said the shift on commission structure, and the billions of dollars that would flow into the housing market as a result, could spark a recovery in the housing market, going so far as to say that it could be as significant as the 1930s New Deal, a flurry of legislation and executive orders signed by President Franklin D. Roosevelt designed to stabilize and rebuild the nation’s economic recovery following the Great Depression. This included the Better Housing Program, which was designed to make housing and mortgages more accessible and led to the creation of the Federal Housing Administration. The financial crisis of 2008, when home values imploded, and earlier changes to the mortgage industry in the 1970s and 1980s, including the creation of Freddie Mac and the introduction of the adjustable rate mortgage, also set off permanent transformations. With Friday’s settlement, the process of buying and selling a home is now in for another historical change.

“This will be a really fundamental shift in how Americans buy, search for, and purchase and sell their housing. It will absolutely transform the real estate industry,” said Max Besbris, an associate professor of sociology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and the author of “Upsold,” a book exploring the link between housing prices and the real estate business. “It will prompt one of the biggest transformations to the housing market since New Deal-era regulations were put in place.”

Image

 

“N.A.R. is finally out of the business of forcing homeowners to pay inflated commissions,” said Michael Ketchmark, the Kansas City lawyer behind the home sellers’ legal triumph.Credit...Brett Pruitt at East Market Studios

The October verdict landed at a time of swirling controversy for the organization, and in the last five months, its internal turmoil reached a fever pitch. Its chief executive, Bob Goldberg, announced in a closed-door meeting that he would retire, just days after the verdict. His exit followed that of N.A.R. president Kenny Parcell, who resigned in August two days after a Times investigation revealed widespread allegations of sexual harassment.

In January, N.A.R.’s new president, Tracy Kasper, who had stepped into the role early with a pledge of reshaping the organization’s culture and fighting the lawsuits at all costs, announced her own sudden exit after N.A.R. said Ms. Kasper was the target of blackmail.

Despite N.A.R.’s turbulence over the last several months, however, there was one constant: their insistence that the lawsuits were flawed and they intended to appeal. With Friday’s settlement agreement, N.A.R. gave up the fight.

The settlement includes many significant rule changes. It bans N.A.R. from establishing any sort of rules that would allow a seller’s agent to set compensation for a buyer’s agent, a practice that critics say has long led to “steering,” in which buyers’ agents direct their clients to pricier homes in a bid to collect a bigger commission check.

And on the online databases used to buy and sell homes, the M.L.S., the settlement requires that any fields displaying broker compensation be eliminated entirely. It also places a blanket ban on the longtime requirement that agents subscribe to multiple listing services in the first place in order to offer or accept compensation for their work.

N.A.R. has repeatedly insisted that it does not own multiple listing sites, but the majority of them are owned and operated by the local Realtor associations that operate as N.A.R. subsidiaries. Now, with the settlement effectively severing the link between agent compensation and MLS access, many agents are likely to rethink their membership in the association.

“The reset button on the sale of homes was hit today,” said Michael Ketchmark, the Kansas City lawyer who represented the home sellers in the main lawsuit. “Anyone who owns a home or dreams of owning one will benefit tremendously from this settlement.”

 

 

[tx 3 putt 76932]

22 minutes ago, Skipper said:

But it's a shady business with 90% of the Agent's largely incompetent and adding little to no value.  

RiP hot female agents of tiktok. I know two already trying to bail / nail down a rich husband asap 

[Blotto 23498]

1 hour ago, Skipper said:

The entire industry is fucking dumb.  Hopefully this helps but I remain skeptical. 

As a whole, real estate agents are some of the most worthless vapid m'fers on the planet. Its probably closer to the 90/10 rule, where 10% are worth a shit and bring enough knowledge/effort into the process they are deserving of their commission, while the other 90% would prefer to be storming the capital. But I also share your skepticism that this will meaningfully lower the costs of buying a house. The industry will just figure out a new way to leech money. 

[Mother mopar 3318]

As a whole, real estate agents are some of the most worthless vapid m'fers on the planet. Its probably closer to the 90/10 rule, where 10% are worth a shit and bring enough knowledge/effort into the process they are deserving of their commission, while the other 90% would prefer to be storming the capital. But I also share your skepticism that this will meaningfully lower the costs of buying a house. The industry will just figure out a new way to leech money. 

This has been my experience. My last realtor was horrible. I literally was coordinating shit she should have been doing.

[Gil Bang 25950]

it's hard for me to type.  

I've been doing this a long time.  I've never, never, never asked for a 6% commission on a home.  Only on raw land.  I can count on one hand the times I've received 3 when prepping a buyer

[UTPhil2006 3807]

1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

RiP hot female agents of tiktok. I know two already trying to bail / nail down a rich husband asap 

That’s why you used me. I put out 

[UTPhil2006 3807]

59 minutes ago, Blotto said:

As a whole, real estate agents are some of the most worthless vapid m'fers on the planet. Its probably closer to the 90/10 rule, where 10% are worth a shit and bring enough knowledge/effort into the process they are deserving of their commission, while the other 90% would prefer to be storming the capital. But I also share your skepticism that this will meaningfully lower the costs of buying a house. The industry will just figure out a new way to leech money. 

And that’s fair. Absolutely is. I try to explain my value both mortgage and real estate and try to get the most value for using us. I feel like I’ve been pretty on point on that with you guys. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

I don’t think anything is going to change. Yes, 10% of people don’t need a real estate agent and can figure life out on their own, the other 90% are hapless troglodytes that eat paste. 

[BearSchlong 8088]

Exceptions exist. Even though I have a BBA in finance/RE and have handled three private fsbo transactions in the last two years, I see value in outsourcing my current transaction. As developers/builders/realtors, my dad, uncle, and grandfather were all past presidents of the Beaumont Board of Realtors from the 1950s-1990s - I just don't want to schedule my day job and business travel around dealing with showings/buyers on this one.

I'll know if I picked the right RE agent after this weekend.

Of course, I'm also seriously considering employing a professional organizer to help unfuck my wife’s habitat. Lately I've taken a DIWhy approach.

[UTPhil2006 3807]

10 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

Exceptions exist. Even though I have a BBA in finance/RE and have handled three private fsbo transactions in the last two years, I see value in outsourcing my current transaction. As developers/builders/realtors, my dad, uncle, and grandfather were all past presidents of the Beaumont Board of Realtors from the 1950s-1990s - I just don't want to schedule my day job and business travel around dealing with showings/buyers on this one.

I'll know if I picked the right RE agent after this weekend.

Of course, I'm also seriously considering employing a professional organizer to help unfuck my wife’s habitat. Lately I've taken a DIWhy approach.

I have the time and was born near Beaumont. Plus I’m sure I could convince @tx 3 putt to go look at his old refineries. 
 

Just sayin..

[gmr548 16576]

13 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I don’t think anything is going to change. Yes, 10% of people don’t need a real estate agent and can figure life out on their own, the other 90% are hapless troglodytes that eat paste. 

Yeah, you have to remember the audience in this thread is people going out of the way to talk about real estate on a college football message board. A lot of us work in the industry. This thread is a very cherry picked sample.

I'm not saying RE agents are categorically great and everyone should use one but even a half decent agent offers some value to the median market participant. They're not going away. I'm an underwriter; very comfortable reading market data, purchase agreements, loan docs, etc. and still plan to use a buyer's agent for our first home just to make sure there is another set of eyes. Maybe this thins the herd a bit because the useless ones can't coast to 3% with all buyers, but that's about it.

Edited March 16 by gmr548

[Pato del Muerto 52492]

I’ll be interested to see how the fee on both sides changes, how the % of each side with representation changes, and how the # of active realtors change. 
 

 

[UTPhil2006 3807]

22 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

Yeah, you have to remember the audience in this thread is people going out of the way to talk about real estate on a college football message board. A lot of us work in the industry. This thread is a very cherry picked sample.

I'm not saying RE agents are categorically great and everyone should use one but even a half decent agent offers some value to the median market participant. They're not going away. I'm an underwriter; very comfortable reading market data, purchase agreements, loan docs, etc. and still plan to use a buyer's agent for our first home just to make sure there is another set of eyes. Maybe this thins the herd a bit because the useless ones can't coast to 3% with all buyers, but that's about it.

BRB sending 15 loan scenarios to you. 
 

In all sincerity with a lot of the guys here buying investment properties, young buyers, etc your Underwriting perspective would be invaluable 

[UTPhil2006 3807]

8 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I’ll be interested to see how the fee on both sides changes, how the % of each side with representation changes, and how the # of active realtors change. 
 

 

There’s a good portion of realtors that piss away 1k a year not selling much. It may cull them. 

[BrazilHorn 6599]

I think if you are moving intra-city a buyers agent adds little to no value. 
 

Now if only Congress could fix the bullshit title/paperwork process real estate could be made simpler for average person. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

45 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

I think if you are moving intra-city a buyers agent adds little to no value. 
 

Now if only Congress could fix the bullshit title/paperwork process real estate could be made simpler for average person. 

Title in general is one of the most inefficient and dumbest systems in the United States, which is saying a lot considering I use the Encompass system everyday. Lending software is archaic. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

One more thing. I don’t even understand why realtors are have the vapors about the commission lawsuit. Realtors argue that commissions have always been negotiable and not mandatory. Then what’s changed? What has materially changed? Sellers may still elect to pay for buyers agent compensation. Buyers can still negotiate their agents compensation. What has changed? It seems like the only material difference is the MLS no longer requires an offer of buyer compensation to be listed. 

[gmr548 16576]

2 hours ago, UTPhil2006 said:

BRB sending 15 loan scenarios to you. 
 

In all sincerity with a lot of the guys here buying investment properties, young buyers, etc your Underwriting perspective would be invaluable 

I'm in multifamily, which is a why I mostly lurk in this thread and then pop off in general housing market discussion or when talk veers to commercial. That's the other reason I'd be inclined to find a good buyers agent - I understand the language, but I also understand that there's things I'm not going to know deep in the weeds of a single family deal.

 

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Title in general is one of the most inefficient and dumbest systems in the United States

I've been advising my mom through selling her home recently and she's been really frustrated with, well, everything that makes this true. All I could muster is "Yeah... in my experience the best and brightest don't dream of working in title."

[LCHorn 2620]

Property law in general is a dismal area in which to practice.  

[Eastwood 4394]

I have extensive experience in this industry and lump me into the camp that thinks this is the right move. The industry brought this on itself, a handful of the realtors I've ever worked with were worth the 6%, and even though it sucks for the hard workers, this industry will be a lot better after an adjustment period. It's time for the industry to become a meritocracy where good work really stands out, not a volume business where any Dick and Jane can get a license just to have access to the MLS and force escrow officers to do 90% of the legwork with the seller or just have access to the lockbox to let buyers in.

The good ones who actually do this as a career and not a side gig need to hang in there. Once the dead weight is gone, there will be a lot more listings to go around.

[LTtxfan 49184]

Seems like title insurance fees in Texas (as much as 1%)  should be a lot less on a property that you already own and just want to refinance.

Realtor friend in Colorado says costs not the same there as Texas so cheaper to refinance.

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

7 minutes ago, LTtxfan said:

Seems like title insurance fees in Texas (as much as 1%)  should be a lot less on a property that you already own and just want to refinance.

Realtor friend in Colorado says costs not the same there as Texas so cheaper to refinance.

There’s a 50% credit for refinances within the first 4 years. 
we have high title fees in Texas because the Texas Department of Insurance TDI is chartered to have it be such/ their mandate is to protect title companies in the state so that every area and county will have one throughout the state. 

[UTPhil2006 3807]

Got back below 4.3xx barely. Downward and onward 

[closetohumping 17440]

On 3/15/2024 at 3:17 PM, Blotto said:

As a whole, real estate agents are some of the most worthless vapid m'fers on the planet. Its probably closer to the 90/10 rule, where 10% are worth a shit and bring enough knowledge/effort into the process they are deserving of their commission, while the other 90% would prefer to be storming the capital. But I also share your skepticism that this will meaningfully lower the costs of buying a house. The industry will just figure out a new way to leech money. 

I’ve definitely met some trash realtors.   Almost as bad as car salesmen 

[Skipper 6135]

14 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

I’ve definitely met some trash realtors.   Almost as bad as car salesmen 

I made an offer once first home purchase and tried to mark up something in the TREC form.  It absolutely blew the realtor's mind and they told me I wasn't allowed to do that.  Mind you I'm doing this from my law firm email address.  I said something to the effect of your position is we aren't allowed to negotiate terms of a real estate transaction?  They pretty much just shut down and I moved on.  But man I've dealt with some really bad and incompetent realtors.  The last house I bought the dude was sleazy and incompetent.  He actually showed me a filled in contract with a listing price offer trying to get me into a bidding war. Extreme used car salesman vibes.  This was in a cooler market, in February, so I called his bluff and just made an offer at list less 3% since representing myself.  Sure enough it was accepted a few days later. I had to drag it to a closing myself as he was pretty worthless.

I've only worked with one agent I thought was pretty good and she represented the tenant on a lease.   She made it super easy on me while I was on vacation with my family.  So I decided not to deal with it the next year and let her list it for me and eat the commission.  Will likely do it again next year if I don't hire a property manager. So to the point above about good agent's hanging in there and making themselves stand out, I agree.

[closetohumping 17440]

10 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I made an offer once first home purchase and tried to mark up something in the TREC form.  It absolutely blew the realtor's mind and they told me I wasn't allowed to do that.  Mind you I'm doing this from my law firm email address.  I said something to the effect of your position is we aren't allowed to negotiate terms of a real estate transaction?  They pretty much just shut down and I moved on.  But man I've dealt with some really bad and incompetent realtors.  The last house I bought the dude was sleazy and incompetent.  He actually showed me a filled in contract with a listing price offer trying to get me into a bidding war. Extreme used car salesman vibes.  This was in a cooler market, in February, so I called his bluff and just made an offer at list less 3% since representing myself.  Sure enough it was accepted a few days later. I had to drag it to a closing myself as he was pretty worthless.

I've only worked with one agent I thought was pretty good and she represented the tenant on a lease.   She made it super easy on me while I was on vacation with my family.  So I decided not to deal with it the next year and let her list it for me and eat the commission.  Will likely do it again next year if I don't hire a property manager. So to the point above about good agent's hanging in there and making themselves stand out, I agree.

That filled in contract seems like all kinds of wrong.  At least car salesman don’t door knock (that I know of)

 

knock knock. “Hi. I is realtor.  Want sell house?”

 

”no”

 

”what if I get 10k over value?”

 

 

 

 

 

another time I told my realtor my parents drop dead number and wouldn’t you know it she came back three days later with that amount.  No counter accepted 

[Skipper 6135]

3 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

That filled in contract seems like all kinds of wrong.  At least car salesman don’t door knock (that I know of)

My wife really wanted this damn house. So just in case there actually was other competition, I definitely led him to believe I would be hiring an agent to sell my existing house, and that if things go well and we can close this deal, it might as well be him, so I used his shady demeanor against him.  Of course I ended up listing my prior house myself, then after a deal was on the rocks over repairs (largely due to another shitty realtor that refused to (i) explain to his buyer I accepted the offer below list on an "as is" basis and (ii) then counsel his first time buyer that not everything in the damn inspection report needs to be fixed) ended up renting it out and have been a landlord for the last 7+ years while the property value appreciated very nicely.  So on one hand, I owe that shitty realtor for forcing me to make a great investment decision.

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

Anyone here/read about what the fed said?  We are still up 15 bips in the mortgage market so it must not have been horrible.  

WE were up 10 before they released whatever they release so it also must not have been great.  Market looks like it's shrugging it off..

[Incredulity 11669]

On 3/15/2024 at 7:07 PM, Neonmoon said:

hapless troglodytes that eat paste.

new site motto?

[Dbeasy 15048]

As I’ve mentioned on here before, I got a real estate license six years ago because I was sick of incompetent lazy realtors. I now do work for my own deals, and do several deals per year for friends and family. They like having someone who used to run companies represent them.

There are a few critical elements to being a good agent, and 90% of them out there just don’t have the experience, skills, or makeup to do the job well. I’ve been shocked at the incompetence I’ve found. I’m in the middle of a deal, and the other realtor had a $3000 exposure for their client that I’m sure the client wasn’t even aware they had. And this was a client that had to scrape for every dollar to get the down payment. 

This agreement will have a substantial effect on the industry.  It will provide more power to push commissions down. As Gil mentioned, 6% is often high unless you are selling a very low priced house, like $300-400k or less. What amazes me is that $1M-$2M homes are getting sold under 6% commissions. That’s ridiculous imo.

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

31 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Anyone here/read about what the fed said?  We are still up 15 bips in the mortgage market so it must not have been horrible.  

WE were up 10 before they released whatever they release so it also must not have been great.  Market looks like it's shrugging it off..

Listening now

Jerome Powell and the Fed still project there will be 0.75% (75 Basis Points) of cuts this year. The FOMC's updated SEP shows their current projections are for rates to end 2024 between 4.50%-4.75% down 0.75% from current levels

We believe seasonal effects may be influencing inflation data. Our policy rate is likely at its peak. Appropriate to begin easing 'at some point this year'. We are prepared to keep rates higher longer if need. 

 

 

Generally dovish given recent 2 months of data. 

market expectations of a June cut shot up from 50% in June to 70% in June

[UTPhil2006 3807]

..which you think would send the 10 year downward. It is, but only very slightly so far. 

[Gil Bang 25950]

19 hours ago, Skipper said:

My wife really wanted this damn house. So just in case there actually was other competition, I definitely led him to believe I would be hiring an agent to sell my existing house, and that if things go well and we can close this deal, it might as well be him, so I used his shady demeanor against him.  Of course I ended up listing my prior house myself, then after a deal was on the rocks over repairs (largely due to another shitty realtor that refused to (i) explain to his buyer I accepted the offer below list on an "as is" basis and (ii) then counsel his first time buyer that not everything in the damn inspection report needs to be fixed) ended up renting it out and have been a landlord for the last 7+ years while the property value appreciated very nicely.  So on one hand, I owe that shitty realtor for forcing me to make a great investment decision.

very unfair assumption.  Sometimes the client refuses to listen, and at the end of the day we act at the direction of the client.

[Skipper 6135]

4 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

very unfair assumption.  Sometimes the client refuses to listen, and at the end of the day we act at the direction of the client.

You're just going to have to trust me on this one.  Agent was some mid to late 20's jackass.   Ended up communicating with the Buyer directly and it was clear Agent had never relayed my clear expectations when I agreed to a reduced listing price.  The Agent just thought he could get the deal done.   I mean we went from crystal clear understanding of an "as is" expectation from my side and don't bother me with repair request unless you find something major to a laundry list of every single thing possibly noted in the inspection report.  It was just horrible deal management by that clown that pissed everyone off in the process and pretty much killed any chance of a deal. I believe they ended up firing him after that.  

[Grimas 669]

So I have a few questions that I was hoping to get answered...  I own a rental house that has roof damage but the contractor said it was hail and wind during a recent named storm. (It's a well known roofing company and not a storm chaser.)

My deductible is 2% or which is about $9300 for wind and hail damage for named storms.  I have the cash but have 200K in equity built up in the property. Is it better to go with a HELOC or a refurbishment loan with the current rates?  ( I have an excellent credit rating so that shouldn't be an issue...) 

Separately, I was planning on a HELOC on my house for college payments as I'd like to take advantage o the equity I've got in my own house and not just pay cash. 

Questions - do I do the HELOC for my house first as it'll be a larger amount?  Does a HELOC (or refurb loan) on the rental give me a credit hit that would make the HELOC on my house tougher? Where do you get HELOC's? Mortgage companies or via a different lender? And I assume that filing a claim on the roof for the rental will also increase the premium... (Filed a claim a few years ago for burst pipes during the big blackout/freeze...)

PM me if one of you guys want to discuss offline...

[UTPhil2006 3807]

Sent you a DM with a couple questions 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

7 minutes ago, Grimas said:

So I have a few questions that I was hoping to get answered...  I own a rental house that has roof damage but the contractor said it was hail and wind during a recent named storm. (It's a well known roofing company and not a storm chaser.)

My deductible is 2% or which is about $9300 for wind and hail damage for named storms.  I have the cash but have 200K in equity built up in the property. Is it better to go with a HELOC or a refurbishment loan with the current rates?  ( I have an excellent credit rating so that shouldn't be an issue...) 

Separately, I was planning on a HELOC on my house for college payments as I'd like to take advantage o the equity I've got in my own house and not just pay cash. 

Questions - do I do the HELOC for my house first as it'll be a larger amount?  Does a HELOC (or refurb loan) on the rental give me a credit hit that would make the HELOC on my house tougher? Where do you get HELOC's? Mortgage companies or via a different lender? And I assume that filing a claim on the roof for the rental will also increase the premium... (Filed a claim a few years ago for burst pipes during the big blackout/freeze...)

PM me if one of you guys want to discuss offline...

I’d be happy to talk through it with you if you want. I’m not going to do the loan for you bc a regional bank or CU would do it better and cheaper than me but I’d be happy to talk through the scenarios with you. 
832-557-1095.