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All Encompassing Mortgage and Real Estate Thread


UTPhil2006

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4 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Sure. The problem is it’s off 90% of the time in one direction lately. It should be 50/50. 

I actually prefer it be off in the same direction if it means market participants can create their own adjustments that might lead to a more accurate measure.  That’s one reason why I don’t buy Habib’s explanation when he claims the headline numbers are distorting the market.  
 

Maybe the rubes are relying on it but the big funds have the brain power to do their own research and analysis and the quants are just following whatever the trend is.

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Just now, LCHorn said:

I actually prefer it be off in the same direction if it means market participants can create their own adjustments that might lead to a more accurate measure.  That’s one reason why I don’t buy Habib’s explanation when he claims the headline numbers are distorting the market.  
 

Maybe the rubes are relying on it but the big funds have the brain power to do their own research and analysis and the quants are just following whatever the trend is.

You are assuming the elites running the fed are actually elite. I’m not willing to grant that assumption at this time. 

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1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You are assuming the elites running the fed are actually elite. I’m not willing to grant that assumption at this time. 

I don’t think the Fed is as much of a market mover as the big banks and players in the Eurodollar system.  It’s more likely they deliberate long enough to see which way the wind is shifting and try to follow it.  

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4 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

I don’t think the Fed is as much of a market mover as the big banks and players in the Eurodollar system.  It’s more likely they deliberate long enough to see which way the wind is shifting and try to follow it.  

Except for the fact that a lot of what those people are doing is based upon reading of fed tea leaves, so… it’s pretty interconnected. I’m not smart enough to tease out which is which. 

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10 minutes ago, UTPhil2006 said:

CPI slow, 10 year down 0.13 so far 

 

22 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Except for the fact that a lot of what those people are doing is based upon reading of fed tea leaves, so… it’s pretty interconnected. I’m not smart enough to tease out which is which. 

Core CPI definitely going the right direction.  Market roars on some good news. 

That MMI jumped up to 224 with 7.09 rates.  

That MMI number seems out of whack against a rising rate?  But .2 vs .3 core month over month CPI is a good thing for the market and for rates! 

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So a couple pages back, we were talking affordability and the rising costs of insurance as one of the factors hurting home buying.  California has brought into focus the same problems all the southern coastal states, more claims and insurers leaving those markets.  

From an underwriting perspective WTF happens when houses can't get insurance?  I assume SOL, unless they can get into some state insurance of the last resort?  In Cali I think that number is $3 million.  And a lot of those burnt homes are worth more than that.  Do they have to self insure somehow?  As I assume no bank will lend on anything not insured.

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4 minutes ago, horn4life said:

So a couple pages back, we were talking affordability and the rising costs of insurance as one of the factors hurting home buying.  California has brought into focus the same problems all the southern coastal states, more claims and insurers leaving those markets.  

From an underwriting perspective WTF happens when houses can't get insurance?  I assume SOL, unless they can get into some state insurance of the last resort?  In Cali I think that number is $3 million.  And a lot of those burnt homes are worth more than that.  Do they have to self insure somehow?  As I assume no bank will lend on anything not insured.

You have to account for the cost of the land, which is by far, the highest component to real estate in California.  I'd bet over 80-85% of the homes can be rebuilt for less than $3 million assuming they can get by government restrictions

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5 minutes ago, horn4life said:

So a couple pages back, we were talking affordability and the rising costs of insurance as one of the factors hurting home buying.  California has brought into focus the same problems all the southern coastal states, more claims and insurers leaving those markets.  

From an underwriting perspective WTF happens when houses can't get insurance?  I assume SOL, unless they can get into some state insurance of the last resort?  In Cali I think that number is $3 million.  And a lot of those burnt homes are worth more than that.  Do they have to self insure somehow?  As I assume no bank will lend on anything not insured.

Correct. Any kind of state insurance, etc is prob gonna be higher which again goes back to pushing peoples DTI over the limit. 

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1 hour ago, Catpfish said:

You have to account for the cost of the land, which is by far, the highest component to real estate in California.  I'd bet over 80-85% of the homes can be rebuilt for less than $3 million assuming they can get by government restrictions

Can’t imagine how much labor and supply costs will skyrocket after this. 

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1 hour ago, Newdoc said:

Yep. And the cost and time delay of permits, finding contractors, inspections, etc. Probably not many locations worse than LA to try to rebuild quickly.

Maybe-Newsome is in competition with Josh Shapiro for the ‘28 nomination and this is going to be his chance, particularly after the rail boondoggle, to show he can make government work, even if he has to steamroll Bass and local officials to do it.  
 

Shapiro has been interviewed a bunch about how they rebuilt the I-95 bridge by basically giving it a fast lane past most of the permitting.  That’s what Newsome will want for the rebuild.  
 

This would take longer, but this also offers Los Angeles the chance to re-envision how those neighborhood look, particularly in encouraging density and with natural disasters in mind.  

 

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7 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

Maybe-Newsome is in competition with Josh Shapiro for the ‘28 nomination and this is going to be his chance, particularly after the rail boondoggle, to show he can make government work, even if he has to steamroll Bass and local officials to do it.  
 

Shapiro has been interviewed a bunch about how they rebuilt the I-95 bridge by basically giving it a fast lane past most of the permitting.  That’s what Newsome will want for the rebuild.  
 

This would take longer, but this also offers Los Angeles the chance to re-envision how those neighborhood look, particularly in encouraging density and with natural disasters in mind.  

 

The rational play would be to greenlight and fast track all rebuilding but that's not in CA nature, so who the hell knows. 

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On 1/12/2025 at 2:27 PM, LCHorn said:

This has certainly come up previously in the 500 pages of this thread and it’s predecessor, but almost every purchase I’ve been party to in which a borrower tried to go without an agent ends up being a shit show, including my own.  Maybe it’s worth it when reflecting a few years later, but it’s definitely a roll of the dice.  

This is why my wife (no pics) had her best year in the business (RE Agent).  Buyers and Sellers need an agent.  Shes been at it 10 years and is doing well.

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 Off the current finance topic, but what level of value do you guys put on appliances in selling a home? 

I am going to completely gut and remodel a kitchen and am trying to decide whether to go higher end on appliances, and say convert from a 30" cooktop to a $36" range for example. Only thing that sucks is electric only, but currently layout is 30 inch cooktop and 27" double ovens, and a microwave eating space on the counter.  I feel like the expectation is that there should be two ovens in the house, and a built in microwave somewhere.  After a quick look I think I have a Bosch, Thor, Kitchenaid, Whirlpool/GE mental ranking.  And I honestly have no idea if Thor is worth a crap or not, just saw some of their stuff on the costco site that was a midpoint in price?   

I am thinking of reconfiguring and going with a slide in 36" range, in place of the 30 inch cooktop, and keeping the vent in the same place.  Mainly, because I like the look of a larger hood with a 14ish foot ceiling. Then filling in with either a double wall oven/microwave combo, or a microwave drawer with a wall oven on top.  Mainly to keep utilize the existing electrical.  I sort of think you need that second oven for entertaining and it's sort of expected in higher end builds.  Or is my perception wrong here? 

ALSO - Do I spring for a matching fridge from a staging/turn key perspective? Or just leave fridge space empty?

Thanks in advance

 

 

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1 hour ago, horn4life said:

 Off the current finance topic, but what level of value do you guys put on appliances in selling a home? 

I am going to completely gut and remodel a kitchen and am trying to decide whether to go higher end on appliances, and say convert from a 30" cooktop to a $36" range for example. Only thing that sucks is electric only, but currently layout is 30 inch cooktop and 27" double ovens, and a microwave eating space on the counter.  I feel like the expectation is that there should be two ovens in the house, and a built in microwave somewhere.  After a quick look I think I have a Bosch, Thor, Kitchenaid, Whirlpool/GE mental ranking.  And I honestly have no idea if Thor is worth a crap or not, just saw some of their stuff on the costco site that was a midpoint in price?   

I am thinking of reconfiguring and going with a slide in 36" range, in place of the 30 inch cooktop, and keeping the vent in the same place.  Mainly, because I like the look of a larger hood with a 14ish foot ceiling. Then filling in with either a double wall oven/microwave combo, or a microwave drawer with a wall oven on top.  Mainly to keep utilize the existing electrical.  I sort of think you need that second oven for entertaining and it's sort of expected in higher end builds.  Or is my perception wrong here? 

ALSO - Do I spring for a matching fridge from a staging/turn key perspective? Or just leave fridge space empty?

Thanks in advance

 

 

Are you looking to rent this house, occupy it or flip it?

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On 1/12/2025 at 2:27 PM, LCHorn said:

This has certainly come up previously in the 500 pages of this thread and it’s predecessor, but almost every purchase I’ve been party to in which a borrower tried to go without an agent ends up being a shit show, including my own.  Maybe it’s worth it when reflecting a few years later, but it’s definitely a roll of the dice.  

I got into real estate originally because my agents sucked and cost me tens of thousands of dollars with bad decisions, negotiating, etc. Like all of the “experts” on Reddit who said that using realtors was for suckers, I had a low opinion of using one. 

Then when I got a license and went thru a bunch of deals I realized there are a thousand tiny little details that can screw up deals and leave buyers or sellers financially exposed big time, sometimes to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. 

I just was using bad agents. I needed to find the 10-15% that knew what they were doing. With a good agent, they will pay for most if not all their fee, but more importantly keep you out of a severe, frightening financial disaster. It’s a low probability, but if it happens to you it’s a 100% probability. 

This year, rather than do deals directly I’m just referring people to other agents. I can look at their specific situation and help them find a competent agent in the Austin metro area. 

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1 hour ago, LCHorn said:

Are you looking to rent this house, occupy it or flip it?

It's my parents house on Lake Belton.  House had a toilet supply line failure, so flooded, and then got brushed by a tornado.  So there is a fair amount of starter money.  It's almost 30 years old, so dated.  They had parquet flooring so they got decent coin for that.  The original contractor who was the original builder flaked, and because we still had a second story full of stuff (while my mom was passing away) I started the renovation.  Tore out all the doors, re-sheet rocked the tear out, demoed out the downstairs bathrooms, and kitchen demo will be next once my Sis helps me get all the shit out of there. 

The only way I would rent it is if it does not sell.  And the big hesitation there is because it's on a septic system.  My original plan was to furnish it out, and make it a 30 day plus rental.  But I think done right it will sell, and for top dollar in the area.  Then it's a clean deal for the estate, and I can get my extra pop at closing. And while I love my sister, she is a pain in the ass on most any decision making.  

So basically a flip.  My Dad is 93 and if he passed then the 30 day rental option might rise to the top?

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, horn4life said:

It's my parents house on Lake Belton.

I don't know anything about the Lake Belton property market, but from looking at listings on Zillow it looks like there's lakefront availability in the $400K-$500K range with a 3/2 (and some poor soul trying to move a $2.2m new build that lacks lake front views).  I'm seeing lots available for about $100K an acre. 

You should know better than me who the buyer is for those, but I would think Houston, Dallas, and Austin residents have closer 2nd home options and those are the buyers who might pay a premium for luxury (I'm sure there are Houston/Dallas/Austin people among the buyers, but they would be more concerned with affordability).  Otherwise, the goal with a flip is to spend the least amount possible on anything that doesn't confer luxury. 

I think I'd go with something modest and wouldn't feel the need to have two ovens.  All I'm seeing is Samsung appliance packages on Costco's website, but if you can get something that is an upgrade by brand but is their lower quality model, I might go with that. 

Caveat is (and I should have asked this) is what is your ideal sales price?  You don't put Whirlpool in a $1.5m home and Thermador in that $400K house described above. 

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21 hours ago, LCHorn said:

I don't know anything about the Lake Belton property market, but from looking at listings on Zillow it looks like there's lakefront availability in the $400K-$500K range with a 3/2 (and some poor soul trying to move a $2.2m new build that lacks lake front views).  I'm seeing lots available for about $100K an acre. 

You should know better than me who the buyer is for those, but I would think Houston, Dallas, and Austin residents have closer 2nd home options and those are the buyers who might pay a premium for luxury (I'm sure there are Houston/Dallas/Austin people among the buyers, but they would be more concerned with affordability).  Otherwise, the goal with a flip is to spend the least amount possible on anything that doesn't confer luxury. 

I think I'd go with something modest and wouldn't feel the need to have two ovens.  All I'm seeing is Samsung appliance packages on Costco's website, but if you can get something that is an upgrade by brand but is their lower quality model, I might go with that. 

Caveat is (and I should have asked this) is what is your ideal sales price?  You don't put Whirlpool in a $1.5m home and Thermador in that $400K house described above. 

Both realtors we initially interviewed thought a listing price of $650-675K would be appropriate.  The problem for me is that the house was designed for my parents and both my grandmothers to live in (and yes that did not work out). So they have no tub, and two showers.  The house is on the edge of "cliff" and thus has a side yard, but backyard is a steep slope down toward the lake.   The advice has been to convert the downstairs bath into a tub/shower enclosure.  Both showers are like low ceiling coffins without good light, so I need to put some cash in there to bring the build out up to the $600+ range.  The tub is basically to widen the number of potential buyers.  I am also limited in adding extra baths due to the septic limitations. 

Where I am saving money-  White shaker cabinets, white 5 panel doors, flooring install, custom mantle.  Where I am spending extra- flooring, a couple key fixtures and kitchen appliances, and matching countertops throughout.  I am using some RTA cabinets. My whole philosophy is that home buying is emotional, and things like higher end appliances tend to help move the place quicker.  Since I am giving the place a complete facelift, it will look on the interior like a new build.  

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This is the flooring 7" and 3" wide planks up to 7 feet in length.  So a solid update to the higher end side.  

Hit send too soon.  But trying to give it a real update.

I was sort of considering a farmhouse sink, but that's usually not my style.  I do insist on a large singe basin sink.

 

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On 1/15/2025 at 5:04 PM, horn4life said:

 Off the current finance topic, but what level of value do you guys put on appliances in selling a home? 

I am going to completely gut and remodel a kitchen and am trying to decide whether to go higher end on appliances, and say convert from a 30" cooktop to a $36" range for example. Only thing that sucks is electric only, but currently layout is 30 inch cooktop and 27" double ovens, and a microwave eating space on the counter.  I feel like the expectation is that there should be two ovens in the house, and a built in microwave somewhere.  After a quick look I think I have a Bosch, Thor, Kitchenaid, Whirlpool/GE mental ranking.  And I honestly have no idea if Thor is worth a crap or not, just saw some of their stuff on the costco site that was a midpoint in price?   

I am thinking of reconfiguring and going with a slide in 36" range, in place of the 30 inch cooktop, and keeping the vent in the same place.  Mainly, because I like the look of a larger hood with a 14ish foot ceiling. Then filling in with either a double wall oven/microwave combo, or a microwave drawer with a wall oven on top.  Mainly to keep utilize the existing electrical.  I sort of think you need that second oven for entertaining and it's sort of expected in higher end builds.  Or is my perception wrong here? 

ALSO - Do I spring for a matching fridge from a staging/turn key perspective? Or just leave fridge space empty?

Thanks in advance

 

 

After seeing your rough price points for the listing, I would only go Thor if the total additional cost impact is less than $3-4k. Rationale being that’s the most of a premium you’ll get in the price for the nicer look and feel that would come from Thor appliances. 

One note on the hood. Having a venting hood these days is a massive massive requirement. Why? Indians moving to the U.S. cook very spicy foods and almost all must have a venting hood. Otherwise, it smells up the house too much. A larger cooktop would also be appreciated by many as long as the cost isn’t too much more.

On the farmhouse sink, I am amazed how passionate women get about their sink choices. It ends up being a major decision criteria for many. Spending a few bucks for one can have a very positive impact, although there will still be a few that like the old two sink setup. 

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House is white brick which is good, new roof and exterior paint will help give it an updated look.  I was going to tear out all the boxwoods this winter and replant.  Instead of flat boxwoods along front, I wall make curved beds for street appeal, as well as new mahogany front door.  Also will remove all the shutters (looks dated) and add two metal awnings to the downstairs windows.  House sort of "looks flat" and the awnings and curved lines of good landscaping will help sell it from the street.

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I want to be done with this by mid-April.  With exterior painting and the new roof/siding being about the last thing I am getting done.  Simply as it looks like I may need to move one, possibly two plumbing vents which would move the boot placement.  

The best comp I think we had went for for $691K, final selling price in September.  Better lot, with flat backyard on 60 foot high cliff.  The house was remodeled decently but now not really weil and the kitchen was a little lacking.  I think that with good finishes, a comparable lot, limited true lake front, and improved street appeal that number and perhaps beyond is possible.

guess I will know in a couple months.  Of course interest rates my influence the final number unfortunately.

 

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3 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

After seeing your rough price points for the listing, I would only go Thor if the total additional cost impact is less than $3-4k. Rationale being that’s the most of a premium you’ll get in the price for the nicer look and feel that would come from Thor appliances. 

One note on the hood. Having a venting hood these days is a massive massive requirement. Why? Indians moving to the U.S. cook very spicy foods and almost all must have a venting hood. Otherwise, it smells up the house too much. A larger cooktop would also be appreciated by many as long as the cost isn’t too much more.

On the farmhouse sink, I am amazed how passionate women get about their sink choices. It ends up being a major decision criteria for many. Spending a few bucks for one can have a very positive impact, although there will still be a few that like the old two sink setup. 

Main reason I was looking at Thor was to find a good looking 36" range in electric only.  My 93 year old dad was arguing that you need the elevated control panel back with a clock and timer.  Hell half the ranges now don't even have that now!  Thor may be a bit overkill, and the 35 inch oven was not as large as I thought.  I might just go with a double oven 30" slide in, and a convection microwave in place of the existing double oven.  That would be both an upgrade and a cost savings.  

I also keep toying with going back away from the hardwood we chose and going with a LVP.  Only to be able to run it seamlessly into the bathrooms as well.  My thinking is that . the hardwoods will have more appeal to higher end buyers.  IS THE PERCEPTION CORRECT?  Or is LVP now at a level where it's on par with actual hardwood?

Thanks again guys

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35 minutes ago, horn4life said:

Main reason I was looking at Thor was to find a good looking 36" range in electric only.  My 93 year old dad was arguing that you need the elevated control panel back with a clock and timer.  Hell half the ranges now don't even have that now!  Thor may be a bit overkill, and the 35 inch oven was not as large as I thought.  I might just go with a double oven 30" slide in, and a convection microwave in place of the existing double oven.  That would be both an upgrade and a cost savings.  

I also keep toying with going back away from the hardwood we chose and going with a LVP.  Only to be able to run it seamlessly into the bathrooms as well.  My thinking is that . the hardwoods will have more appeal to higher end buyers.  IS THE PERCEPTION CORRECT?  Or is LVP now at a level where it's on par with actual hardwood?

Thanks again guys

I'm not sure. Some people still want the hardwood and I haven't been able to figure out yet how much of a deal that is for some buyers.  However, I have LVP in my own house ($600-700k value) and I LOVE it. It's durable, looks good, and affordable. But some people will always opt for the perception value of hardwood.

edit: what's the cost difference?

Edited by Dbeasy
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2 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

On the farmhouse sink, I am amazed how passionate women get about their sink choices. It ends up being a major decision criteria for many. Spending a few bucks for one can have a very positive impact, although there will still be a few that like the old two sink setup. 

A 2 basin sink sucks ass, fills the under sink space with plumbing, and is just less useful than a large single basin. Before my current house, every place I have lived has had 2 basin and I'm never going back.

If you can't replace the basin though, putting in a new faucet is only $150 or so and can make it seem nicer

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16 minutes ago, Captainant said:

A 2 basin sink sucks ass, fills the under sink space with plumbing, and is just less useful than a large single basin. Before my current house, every place I have lived has had 2 basin and I'm never going back.

If you can't replace the basin though, putting in a new faucet is only $150 or so and can make it seem nicer

agreed, when we went to single basin we said never again to two sink. I don't know what farmhouse vs single basin demand is.

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1 hour ago, Dbeasy said:

I'm not sure. Some people still want the hardwood and I haven't been able to figure out yet how much of a deal that is for some buyers.  However, I have LVP in my own house ($600-700k value) and I LOVE it. It's durable, looks good, and affordable. But some people will always opt for the perception value of hardwood.

edit: what's the cost difference?

The hickory is $6.75 a square foot before installation.  I love the look of the hickory, but the speed and ease of LVP may win out. Simply as i like the uniform look.  I may have to go back through and take another look at the higher end LVP.  Another plus would be no concerns about additional vapor barrier because of pier and beam with LVP.  How did they trim out the bottom edge around you rtub???  

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

A 2 basin sink sucks ass, fills the under sink space with plumbing, and is just less useful than a large single basin. Before my current house, every place I have lived has had 2 basin and I'm never going back.

If you can't replace the basin though, putting in a new faucet is only $150 or so and can make it seem nicer

We went with a deep single basin on our kitchen remodel.  Best decision I eve made.  Except because of the depth of the basin I had to cutout and drop down my drain, in order to squeeze in a disposal.  Which I got the shallowest one possible.  But we cook a lot, and host a lot of family stuff.  And the ability to put in sheet pans flat, and scrub them is nirvana. Well maybe not nirvana, but trying to clean big sheet pans in a double basin is a fucking mess.  Also rewired the disposal so I could put in one of those countertop buttons next to sink.  I did it because we had a three hole kitchen faucet and only two holes for the newer models.  Either a cap, or cool button!  Runs off air pressure, but solved a problem and I see them a lot now on higher end island builds in particular.

 

3 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

agreed, when we went to single basin we said never again to two sink. I don't know what farmhouse vs single basin demand is.

It's a lot more rural in Temple/Belton than Austin and made me think perhaps a farmhouse sink.  But I personally like the cleaner look of under mount stainless to match the appliances.  So likely just big basin with left hand drain.  That allows me to repurpose a cabinet from trash cabinet, but building slide out trash under right hand side of sink.

 

Thanks again for the replies guys

 

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I know rates have only been "high" for a couple years, but is there a reason you guys don't push for recasting instead of refinancing for the "I'll never let go of this rate" crowd?

I ask only because I never knew it existed until earlier this week. Seems like you wouldn't pay mortgage off any sooner, but you would get a smaller payment, right?

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