All Encompassing Mortgage and Real Estate Thread

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

49 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Lender pulls my credit an the next morning I get absolutely bombarded with calls, presumably from brokers that pay the reporting agencies for contact info of people that have a certain credit pull. Like 70 calls on day 1. Several dupes but not too many.  Basically none of them leave a voicemail so they are robocalls that will connect with some poor slob if I pick up.  No name on the call ID. 

several of them have the stones to text without me approving texts. Most of those texts don’t have a person’s name or a company name, so again a computer generated bullshit message that only goes to a person if I respond. Usually some quick message like “It’s your right to shop, we can beat any deal!  Is this a purchase or refinance? Text stop to stop receiving messages”

Complete beating, even with the phone set to ignore unknown callers.  Went on for about a week with calls tailing off a little each day.

shouldn’t be legal. Or at least the number of contacts should be limited to one Kyle two before you have to stop. 
 

i hope none of youse guys do that. 

I spent 5000 of my own money joining a trade organization and going to DC to lobby against it. It’s abusive and terrible. 

[Gil Bang 26,241]

1 hour ago, Gatorubet said:

I had a great agent for the house I’m in now. At her insistence, we demanded all kinds of stupid shit of theirs that had to stay with the sale.  She focused on things that were emotional items to them that they would not want to do. While she was doing this, we were asking for all kinds of reductions for other things.  We wound up giving up all the things we never wanted in the first place, and got most of the things that I really wanted.

Fuck yeah!  That's how it's done.  

[BearSchlong 8,243]

Lender pulls my credit an the next morning I get absolutely bombarded with calls, presumably from brokers that pay the reporting agencies for contact info of people that have a certain credit pull. Like 70 calls on day 1. Several dupes but not too many.  Basically none of them leave a voicemail so they are robocalls that will connect with some poor slob if I pick up.  No name on the call ID. 

several of them have the stones to text without me approving texts. Most of those texts don’t have a person’s name or a company name, so again a computer generated bullshit message that only goes to a person if I respond. Usually some quick message like “It’s your right to shop, we can beat any deal!  Is this a purchase or refinance? Text stop to stop receiving messages”
Complete beating, even with the phone set to ignore unknown callers.  Went on for about a week with calls tailing off a little each day.
shouldn’t be legal. Or at least the number of contacts should be limited to one Kyle two before you have to stop. 
 
i hope none of youse guys do that. 

Ditto, this week. All from random Texas phone exchanges like Hitchcock or Port Bolivar. I'm a salesperson so I’m not mad, but I have to wonder what the hit rate is on that method.

[LCHorn 2,751]

4 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

presumably from brokers that pay the reporting agencies for contact info of people that have a certain credit pull.

 

2 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

Ditto, this week.

Trigger leads.  Most good lenders hate them because we built our business on referrals, not buying leads.  You can opt out but it will take a couple of weeks for it to work.  
 

Opt Out Trigger Leads

[UTPhil2006 3,930]

7 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I spent 5000 of my own money joining a trade organization and going to DC to lobby against it. It’s abusive and terrible. 

This. It’s by far the most annoying and horrid thing about our job. And as mentioned above you guys I’ve been working with for 15+ years now (all the way back to Hornfans) so for it to just absolute annihilate you guys every single time when I run your credit makes me feel like a horses patoot when in reality it’s credit technologies or corelogic etc who’s likely doing it all at the expense of LO’s trying to explain each time that it’s not us doing it. 
 

As far as hit rate unless it’s a 90 year old dementia consumer, I gotta think the success rate is less than 0%

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

8 minutes ago, UTPhil2006 said:

This. It’s by far the most annoying and horrid thing about our job. And as mentioned above you guys I’ve been working with for 15+ years now (all the way back to Hornfans) so for it to just absolute annihilate you guys every single time when I run your credit makes me feel like a horses patoot when in reality it’s credit technologies or corelogic etc who’s likely doing it all at the expense of LO’s trying to explain each time that it’s not us doing it. 
 

As far as hit rate unless it’s a 90 year old dementia consumer, I gotta think the success rate is less than 0%

It’s so cheap to do that the hit rate needs to be less than 1/1000 for it to make financial sense. I’d assume the preponderance of people doing it means that it at least has that hit rate. 
also, people are desperate and they confuse doing something with actual accomplishment. 

[UT_OB1 2,266]

6 hours ago, LCHorn said:

 

Trigger leads.  Most good lenders hate them because we built our business on referrals, not buying leads.  You can opt out but it will take a couple of weeks for it to work.  
 

Opt Out Trigger Leads

Your link may be 100% OK, but it is amusing that it takes you to a somewhat random appearing site (not a .gov or anything) and says you’ll need to give your name, address, DOB, and SSN.  Lol hard pass

[LCHorn 2,751]

3 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

Your link may be 100% OK, but it is amusing that it takes you to a somewhat random appearing site (not a .gov or anything) and says you’ll need to give your name, address, DOB, and SSN.  Lol hard pass

That's because all of this is private sector.  The website was set up amongst the credit bureaus (who are the ones selling your information to shit lenders) in order to force the consumer to deny permission for them to sell it. 

Another way of looking at it is they are doing this to avoid more intrusive regulation (like the kind that @Wulaw Horn and our own executive team is lobbying for).  Regardless, they require the same information we do in order to match a person against the credit bureau's databases.

No pressure, though.  If you or someone else would prefer the solicitations that's your right as a consumer. 

[hornmpa96 2,669]

[Incredulity 11,876]

These are the new leads. These are the Glengarry leads. And to you, they're gold. And you don't get them. Why? Because to give them to you is just throwing them away.

[UTPhil2006 3,930]

Screw the jobs “report” that is all 

[Storm the Field 5,366]

10-year back up to 4.22% after the report.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Storm the Field

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

12 minutes ago, UTPhil2006 said:

Screw the jobs “report” that is all 

 

10 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

10-year back up to 4.22% after the report.

Last 2 months revised lower by 35,000 jobs.  Shocking.  Every. Single. Report.  

[Storm the Field 5,366]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

 

Last 2 months revised lower by 35,000 jobs.  Shocking.  Every. Single. Report.  

Oh here you go with your Texags-esque "always revised lower" schtick.

Every single BLS report, under every administration, gets an initial release, initial revision the next month, and final reading the next month after that. True, for several months now, the revisions have primarily been lower. For a long stretch in 2021 and 2022, they were consistently revised higher. 

The guy in charge of the BLS was appointed by Trump and has had the job for 5+ years now. Is he cooking the books for Biden?

[LCHorn 2,751]

MBS seems fairly stable, at least, knock on wood. 

[jimmyjazz 47,209]

So the jobs market sucks?  Is that what I'm supposed to believe?

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

43 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

Oh here you go with your Texags-esque "always revised lower" schtick.

Every single BLS report, under every administration, gets an initial release, initial revision the next month, and final reading the next month after that. True, for several months now, the revisions have primarily been lower. For a long stretch in 2021 and 2022, they were consistently revised higher. 

The guy in charge of the BLS was appointed by Trump and has had the job for 5+ years now. Is he cooking the books for Biden?

This isn't about politics.  I have said the same thing for years (like- back to the W administration) that I don't believe the U4 number, I think it's manipulated, and nobody should pay attention to anything but total labor force participation- U6.  

It's been the last 10 in a row that were revised lower I just now read.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Wulaw Horn
correcting number of months jobs revised lower

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

So the jobs market sucks?  Is that what I'm supposed to believe?

Sucks? Probably not.  Getting softer?  Almost assuredly.  Remember- jobs and unemployment are a lagging indicator and they won't be significantly up until a recession is well on, and they won't start going down until we are out of a recession and into recovery. If you are looking at that you've missed what has been happening for the last 6 months or year in a macro sense. 

[UTPhil2006 3,930]

23 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

MBS seems fairly stable, at least, knock on wood. 

Hopefully it was just that initial market open pop of 0.10 and then trickles down the rest of the day. 

[Storm the Field 5,366]

9 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I don't believe the U4 number, I think it's manipulated, and nobody should pay attention to anything but total labor force participation- U6.  

U6 is 6.8%. While up from its all-time low (6.1% in April '23), it's still a very healthy reading historically. 

Labor participation went up 0.1% last month. Prime-age (25-52) participation in particular is in very good shape.

[jimmyjazz 47,209]

20 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Sucks? Probably not.  Getting softer?  Almost assuredly.  Remember- jobs and unemployment are a lagging indicator and they won't be significantly up until a recession is well on, and they won't start going down until we are out of a recession and into recovery. If you are looking at that you've missed what has been happening for the last 6 months or year in a macro sense. 

LOL.  Never change.

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

14 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

LOL.  Never change.

What exactly are you trying to state?  That employment isn't a lagging indicator?  That what I said about not starting to see it rise until we are in a recession isn't accurate? I think that's essentially fact agreed to by everyone. This has nothing to do with politics and shouldn't be considered controversial in any way.  

 

LIterally, from my digest today:  "As mentioned yesterday this is a difficult number to handicap and is extremley volatile, often not making sense initially and then being revised lower in coming months.  The trend in job growth still is clearly lower, especially considering the weak adp figures numbers in stark contrast, the drop in job openings, those that said it's harder to find a job rising to the highest level since 2021, weak manufacturing employment and job listings continuing to drop according to Zip Recruiter"

 

Or- as I said- shitty now?  no.  Softening market?  Almost undoubtedly. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Wulaw Horn
typos and autocorrect wrong words

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

22 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

U6 is 6.8%. While up from its all-time low (6.1% in April '23), it's still a very healthy reading historically. 

Labor participation went up 0.1% last month. Prime-age (25-52) participation in particular is in very good shape.

You aren't getting what I'm saying here.  What you quoted was me pointing out- that for a solid year now every single revision is negative to jobs and some fairly significantly.  And that I've had a bone to pick with the headline numbers (U4) for 20 years and this is in no way political. 

Yes- the u6 rate is fine. I wasn't saying it wasn't.  It's worse than 6 months ago. We've seen wage increases dampened. Employment is a lagging indicator.  Inflation is down.  Price of gas is down.  Fed is through hiking.  Form your own conclusions from there. I told you mine-  October 30th was basically going to be the exact inflection point on this thing and I called it essentially real time.  I will either be right or wrong and I will own it completely.  That's definitively me drawing a line in the sand and saying this is where it ends going up.

Bonus- I will bet rates drop further and faster than most anticipate. I wouldn't be surprised with another 1 point drop (we've already had one in the last 30 or 40 days) happening over the coarse of a month (probably the first month the fed announces a rate cut) and I wouldn't be shocked if rates this time next year are approaching being in the 4's for the right borrower and deal.  I also wouldn't be shocked if we see rates in the 3's (high) for the right borrower between now and 2026 at some point in time. I would be flabergasted if they ever get to the 2's again.  

 

Bonus- Here's one I will say why this report might not suck as bad as some of the other recent ones (especially the report out in October that just got revised down by another 35k jobs)- the seasonal adjustment and birth/death guestimator on buisnesses was not driving the majority of the job increases here like it was in that October report.  Which were then revised down.  Hmmmm, seasonal and birth death model adjustments aren't hard data and maybe we shouldn't be completely convinced, in real time, on a report where the majority of job increases come from that?  

Edited December 8, 2023 by Wulaw Horn

[jimmyjazz 47,209]

13 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

What exactly are you trying to state? 

I'm stating that the modus operandi in this "non political" forum is curiously hyper-critical of the economy, regardless of the tenor of economic news, when a Democrat is in office.

Carry on, I'm not hashing it out any more. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by jimmyjazz

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'm stating that the modus operandi in this "non political" forum is curiously hyper-critical of the economy, regardless of the tenor of economic news, when a Democrat is in office.

Carry on, I'm not hashing it out any more. 

Cool cool cool. Again, I wasn't hyper critical of shit. Go look at what you quoted.  It was me pointing out (that for any administration in the history of ever) employment is a lagging indicator not a leading indicator. 
By the way- I wrote the jacking off about Sark based upon program trends in July of 2022. And I was dead balls on right. I'm telling you that you have to distinguish between leading and lagging indicators and in football a leading indicator is roster quality and a lagging indicator is wins.  In economics emloyment is a lagging indicator. You literally quoted something from me saying essentially a non-controversial law of how this whole thing works and tried to make something political which was not. 

Remember- jobs and unemployment are a lagging indicator and they won't be significantly up until a recession is well on, and they won't start going down until we are out of a recession and into recovery.

[jimmyjazz 47,209]

I wasn't disputing the characteristics of employment data as indicators, I'm just laughing at the "you just wait, it LOOKS good now but doom is coming" crap that is part and parcel of this board whenever a Democrat is in office.

I mean, I've been around here a while.  Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Ultimately, it's not a discussion worth having.  Congrats on passing Macro 101.

[Incredulity 11,876]

[Captainant 28,539]

It would be dope if some action happened to remove tax incentives for hedge and PE funds buying single family homes. It would go a long way towards fixing the inventory problem if they weren't all being bought as pure investment vehicles

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

SO- logged on and MBS were up 5 for the day roughly 3 minutes ago.  Shrugged off the jobs report like it was nothing.  This is the sign of a market that's ready for something good to happen instead of seeing anvils falling all over the place, imo.  HO Ho Ho.  Gonna be a merry xmas.  Light at the end of the tunnel (he said- hoping it's not a train). 

[StassneyHorn 6,775]

July initial job numbers were 187k, revised downwards to 157k, then revised upwards to 236k. July is not 10 months ago.

Through September, when the 2 month revisions have been completed, our economy is still 403k jobs net over expectations YTD, with 285k of that happening in January. In the last 6 months we're at a 116k net gain over expectations YTD.

The Chicken Little downward revisions don't mean shit when they still beat expectations.

[Shaggy3.0 1,695]

This chick says garbage loans flooding the market again, ala 2008.

Is she right?

 

[UTPhil2006 3,930]

I made it through about 2 min. Her ARM stuff was a bit farfetched. And her Zillow 1% stuff didn’t really hold water because Zillow doesn’t do the appraisal. And I don’t know anyone (or that they even had) who has used Zillow loans 

[Neonmoon 38,130]

No. Everything she said is fucking stupid. 

1% down is a garbage loan? Why? Are 0% down USDA loans also garbage loans? She says Rocket is overinflating the price of the house to cover the 2%? How? Pure stupidity 

Adjustable Rate Loan borrowers have to be qualified on the fully indexed rate, not the teaser. Saying people couldn’t afford them if rates go up is pure stupidity 

We have some of the lowest delinquency rates in the history of mortgages. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-mortgage-delinquency-rates-fall-all-time-low-2023-08-10/

Tons of layoffs in mortgage industry? No shit. Companies hired a ton of people for Boom cycle and now have to adjust for bust cycle. And no, most loan officers are not self employed. Some are, but retail lenders and banks are all W2. 

There are zero similarities to the housing market in 2023 and 2008. 

She said the Fed raising rates isn’t working? That might be one of the dumbest things she’s said so far. Like eating glue dumb. Inflation has come down from 9% to normal range of 3% in record time. And the economy hasn’t entered a recession (tbd). We have the best economy of the G7 right now 

Student having to resume payments on student loans will constrict the economy, and throw us into a recession? THAT WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE HOUSING MARKET. Rates would drop faster and the people sitting pretty at 3% rates would sell. 

You can’t qualify for a mortgage with 0% student loan payment unless you are on income based repayment plan. You have to include their student loan payments, and if they’re in forbearance, you have to input 0.5% or 1.0% of balance depending on loan program. No one is choosing between paying mortgage and student loans. It’s pure stupidity 

that is the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen. 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Neonmoon

[Pato del Muerto 53,508]

What fucking LO is qualifying people for new construction based on unimproved property taxes?  What lender is allowing this?

and- I’m getting an ARM. I have been informed of the initial rate, length, initial adjustment cap, subsequent adjustment cap, index used, and margin over index value. I’ve signed a document telling me what my payment would be at the rate cap.  I’m informed. 
 

The items she is scaremongering about are different than what led to 2008.  Off the top of my head, some of those things were low or no down payment subprime loans to borrowers with credit scores from 580-620, low down payment stated income loans with tons of borrowers and loan officers willing to fraudulently state higher income to qualify, use of interest only and neg am loans in situations that they weren’t meant for just to get qualified, and places like ameriquest and countrywide using relationships with appraisers to inflate values for refinances. 
 

so more of the MBS had a higher % of risky loans in them that were not supposed to have that leave of risk. 
 

defaults from the income stuff start happening as people could not pay the loan they “qualified” for, foreclosures went up, values dropped, which made the ameriquest type refis even more underwater so people walked from them, etc. and investors no longer trusted the MBS. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Pato del Muerto

[Neonmoon 38,130]

I just had to talk myself down from commenting on that video on YouTube. It was rage inducing stupidity 

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

11 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

What fucking LO is qualifying people for new construction based on unimproved property taxes?  What lender is allowing this?

None. 

[UTPhil2006 3,930]

48 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I just had to talk myself down from commenting on that video on YouTube. It was rage inducing stupidity 

I don’t know how y’all made it more than a couple minutes in. I had to close it for my own sanity 

[Pato del Muerto 53,508]

50 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I just had to talk myself down from commenting on that video on YouTube. It was rage inducing stupidity 

Sorry for the huge edit after your reaction, neon. 

[KYHorn 17,615]

On 12/10/2023 at 1:26 PM, Neonmoon said:

No. Everything she said is fucking stupid. 

1% down is a garbage loan? Why? Are 0% down USDA loans also garbage loans? She says Rocket is overinflating the price of the house to cover the 2%? How? Pure stupidity 

Adjustable Rate Loan borrowers have to be qualified on the fully indexed rate, not the teaser. Saying people couldn’t afford them if rates go up is pure stupidity 

We have some of the lowest delinquency rates in the history of mortgages. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-mortgage-delinquency-rates-fall-all-time-low-2023-08-10/

Tons of layoffs in mortgage industry? No shit. Companies hired a ton of people for Boom cycle and now have to adjust for bust cycle. And no, most loan officers are not self employed. Some are, but retail lenders and banks are all W2. 

There are zero similarities to the housing market in 2023 and 2008. 

She said the Fed raising rates isn’t working? That might be one of the dumbest things she’s said so far. Like eating glue dumb. Inflation has come down from 9% to normal range of 3% in record time. And the economy hasn’t entered a recession (tbd). We have the best economy of the G7 right now 

Student having to resume payments on student loans will constrict the economy, and throw us into a recession? THAT WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE HOUSING MARKET. Rates would drop faster and the people sitting pretty at 3% rates would sell. 

You can’t qualify for a mortgage with 0% student loan payment unless you are on income based repayment plan. You have to include their student loan payments, and if they’re in forbearance, you have to input 0.5% or 1.0% of balance depending on loan program. No one is choosing between paying mortgage and student loans. It’s pure stupidity 

that is the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen. 

 

 

[Vegas64 713]

Mortgage pros and bros- does anyone have any recent experience with a Home Equity loan?

Assume I am easily qualified (DTI, LTV, etc.) and that I've compared a HELOC and Home Equity Loan and decided on the loan. The questions I have are,

Did you go through an e-commerce website or online lender or a traditional bank or mortgage company?

Assuming a bunch of these companies are like refinancing and want to hammer you with fees, what is the cheapest way to source one of these loans while minimizing costs and fees?

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

8 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

Mortgage pros and bros- does anyone have any recent experience with a Home Equity loan?

Assume I am easily qualified (DTI, LTV, etc.) and that I've compared a HELOC and Home Equity Loan and decided on the loan. The questions I have are,

Did you go through an e-commerce website or online lender or a traditional bank or mortgage company?

Assuming a bunch of these companies are like refinancing and want to hammer you with fees, what is the cheapest way to source one of these loans while minimizing costs and fees?

You are paying for it either through fees or in the interest rate- one or another. A HELOC is cheaper in all likelihood because it’s likely if it’s not a large amount you don’t have to pay title insurance on the deal. After a certain dollar amount though they will ask for title and that’s going to raise the cost to a normal home equity loan. 
 

[UTPhil2006 3,930]

8 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

Mortgage pros and bros- does anyone have any recent experience with a Home Equity loan?

Assume I am easily qualified (DTI, LTV, etc.) and that I've compared a HELOC and Home Equity Loan and decided on the loan. The questions I have are,

Did you go through an e-commerce website or online lender or a traditional bank or mortgage company?

Assuming a bunch of these companies are like refinancing and want to hammer you with fees, what is the cheapest way to source one of these loans while minimizing costs and fees?

@Wulaw Horn and I use the same big lender so it’s just a matter of licensing. We have about 40 states. The fees are gonna be mostly third party so roughly the same as well. The things you’re gonna wanna look at is origination (especially in todays market) and if they’re helping with appraisal (we take care of every shaggy guy)

[Neonmoon 38,130]

 

 

Basically no one knows but we (real estate industry) all hope it's a lot 

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

If you bought a house with an FHA or a VA loan we have new pricing available where it is HIGHLY likely that we can do a streamline or an IIRL refinance for you at a lower interest rate, or perhaps with zero cost at a slightly higher one.  Anyone whose bought in the past 18 months this probably makes some sense for on an FHA or VA.  Need to have made 6 on time payments by end of January.  If that fits you please feel free to PM me or get in contact at www.mortgagesbygabe.com

This is a super easy program with very little underwriting involved. It's basically- show you made your payments and you are likely to qualify for this new rate and save money. 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Wulaw Horn

[UTPhil2006 3,930]

Fed holds steady at meeting today. Sees 75 bps of cuts for 2024.  10 year loves it.. down .13 To 4.07 current 

[UTPhil2006 3,930]

5 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If you bought a house with an FHA or a VA loan we have new pricing available where it is HIGHLY likely that we can do a streamline or an IIRL refinance for you at a lower interest rate, or perhaps with zero cost at a slightly higher one.  Anyone whose bought in the past 18 months this probably makes some sense for on an FHA or VA.  Need to have made 6 on time payments by end of January.  If that fits you please feel free to PM me or get in contact at www.mortgagesbygabe.com

This is a super easy program with very little underwriting involved. It's basically- show you made your payments and you are likely to qualify for this new rate and save money. 

 

I’ll be curious to see if other lenders follow suit or just let UWM corner the market. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,596]

1 minute ago, UTPhil2006 said:

I’ll be curious to see if other lenders follow suit or just let UWM corner the market. 

I don't know that anyone else has the heft and market cap to be able to do that, if we are being honest.

[Neonmoon 38,130]

5 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I don't know that anyone else has the heft and market cap to be able to do that, if we are being honest.

Rocket has been throwing their weight around recently too

[UTPhil2006 3,930]

Only thing about this program is they could have gone a little lower with the preset percentages. They’re lower than current but comparative to 210 days ago they’re not. 

[UTPhil2006 3,930]

On 12/5/2023 at 11:28 AM, UTPhil2006 said:

I wouldn’t mind going into the 4.0xx (4.17 current as seen above)

Missed the 3.9xx one. So I wouldn’t mind going into the 3.8xx which could happen by lunch. 3.928 currently.