All Encompassing Mortgage and Real Estate Thread

[LCHorn 2582]

11 hours ago, horncyclist said:

I'm still looking at doing a cash-out refinance. Every lender I've talked to has said that points are required for a cash out right now. So I'm looking at 3.375 plus $4700 in points. My questions to the Surly mortgage wizards....is this what you're seeing on cash out? Are banks just viewing these as riskier so are making sure the'yre getting paid? Have you ever seen this before? When I was looking at this before, the cash out versus straight refinance difference was an eight to a quarter of a percentage point. 

Final question. Do you see rates staying low? The points required were $12000 three weeks ago, $4700 now but with so much economic uncertainty I could see that changing again.

Wish we were in a different situation to take advantage of of the lower rates but we need the cash to pay off a HELOC so a straight refi isn't an option. On the plus side, by paying off the HELOC, I'm cutting the I'm paying on the total home debt substantially so the break even point ends up only being about two years out. This is is a good deal for us but would rather have the $4700 in my pocket instead of the lender.

 

 

I'm not charging points as long as I can make money on the rate but we're also selling all of our c/o to Fannie direct.  It's really just a matter of loan size.  My guess is that if you're being charged points your loan is less than $200K, including the HELOC.  I'm not there yet but I'm close to turning anything down that's less than $200K; I've locked 16 loans the first three days of this week and our staff is about to mutiny (12 of those are purchases). 

I'm also about to have to institute an "asshole" test--if you tell me your buddy is a lender and you're just checking to see if his pricing is good I'll direct you to Quicken's website.  Any time I spend on it is at the expense of someone who might actually make us money.  Show your buddy some loyalty and quit wasting my time over .125% on the rate. 

[LCHorn 2582]

On 7/13/2020 at 6:29 PM, pearlandhorn said:

Question: we just refinanced back in August for a 15 year at 3.125% fixed. Can we contact our credit union and ask for them to lower the rate a bit given the climate? I’m thinking no but was just curious as to how flexible credit unions are right now.

Now is the best time, quite frankly, while you're in the window where the re-issuance of the title insurance will  have the greatest discount.  I just quoted someone 2.5% earlier this evening, closing costs came in at around $3500 (appraisal waiver) if that helps you do the math yourself on when you might break-even.   

[horncyclist 1384]

11 hours ago, UTPhil2006 said:

How long has this cash out with this lender been going?  Looking back it looks like you started it in March at 3.75.. just making sure this guy isn't jerking you around.

We were going to do it back in January and the appraisal came in oddly low so it didn't make sense. Have just been watching rates since then. A couple months ago multiple lenders started quoting me a points requirement for the loan, no non-points options. It's a big loan, falls in the "high-cost conventional" in my area so not sure what that does for Fannie being able to purchase so that might drive up the rates. 

 

 

[ZB'Tejas 593]

That market is about to get Tesla’d 

So it will keep going up against all common thinking?


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[ZB'Tejas 593]

That market is about to get Tesla’d 

So it will keep going up against all common thinking?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ZB'Tejas 593]

If you don't mind me asking, how did that appraisal compare to the TCAD appraisal for the property?  (I do understand that the two can be far apart.)

TCAD has my house at $390 a sqft... a recent appraisal had it at $450 a sqft. But my neighbors (that is very similar to mine) just sold for $500 a sqft.

So big difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UTPhil2006 3790]

2 hours ago, ZB'Tejas said:

So it will keep going up against all common thinking?


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Why stop now. Been that way for at least a few years. 

[ZB'Tejas 593]

29 minutes ago, UTPhil2006 said:

Why stop now. Been that way for at least a few years. 

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

20 hours ago, LCHorn said:

I'm not charging points as long as I can make money on the rate but we're also selling all of our c/o to Fannie direct.  It's really just a matter of loan size.  My guess is that if you're being charged points your loan is less than $200K, including the HELOC.  I'm not there yet but I'm close to turning anything down that's less than $200K; I've locked 16 loans the first three days of this week and our staff is about to mutiny (12 of those are purchases). 

I'm also about to have to institute an "asshole" test--if you tell me your buddy is a lender and you're just checking to see if his pricing is good I'll direct you to Quicken's website.  Any time I spend on it is at the expense of someone who might actually make us money.  Show your buddy some loyalty and quit wasting my time over .125% on the rate. 

Yep. All of this

i call my people every morning and every evening and ask them how many loans they can take on that day. I’ve been told 3 every day this week- so that’s where I get, and I stop there.ingot some push back over doing a couple of $$135k loans from them- but my point is we are in the helping people  business and those two loans really were helping people, no doubt about it. They begrudgingly agreed but I made sure to pick a couple $400k plus loans to follow those up with that I had on my contact sheet

The biggest job, for me, right now (and sounds like you too) is playing air traffic controller and keeping Originations coming  in on a manageable schedule, not burning out staff, and managing customer expectations. 
Those are awesome challenges to deal with as we test on our team if our capacity is 30, or 40 or maybe more. 

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

20 hours ago, LCHorn said:

Now is the best time, quite frankly, while you're in the window where the re-issuance of the title insurance will  have the greatest discount.  I just quoted someone 2.5% earlier this evening, closing costs came in at around $3500 (appraisal waiver) if that helps you do the math yourself on when you might break-even.   

Yep. Also, the credit union could just reno with him or give him something stupid low to avoid the runoff. I wouldn’t count on it,  but I’d file that under “never hurts to ask”. 

[Redpuma 146]

the amount of extra hoops that i have had to jump through to get my refinancing done is painful. they want to verify my employment day of closing to ensure im still employed plus bank statements, etc multiple times.

what a pita. 

[LCHorn 2582]

55 minutes ago, Redpuma said:

the amount of extra hoops that i have had to jump through to get my refinancing done is painful. they want to verify my employment day of closing to ensure im still employed plus bank statements, etc multiple times.

what a pita. 

We're all doing that; trust me, it's not more fun for us on the lender side. 

Just be glad you're not self-employed with a jumbo loan. 

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

4 hours ago, Redpuma said:

the amount of extra hoops that i have had to jump through to get my refinancing done is painful. they want to verify my employment day of closing to ensure im still employed plus bank statements, etc multiple times.

what a pita. 

Yeah man- that’s irritating for sure and I always feel bad for my borrowers. All that said, and I’m not asking anyone to cry for me or mine or people in the industry, but it’s been an absolute nightmare for us on our side of the table to work through all this bullshit that’s happened since the ‘Rona. 
we don’t want to fuck with you man, I promise. It’s a real beat down. 

[UTPhil2006 3790]

5 hours ago, Redpuma said:

the amount of extra hoops that i have had to jump through to get my refinancing done is painful. they want to verify my employment day of closing to ensure im still employed plus bank statements, etc multiple times.

what a pita. 

That’s almost every lender. 

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

18 minutes ago, UTPhil2006 said:

That’s almost every lender. 

I’d think by almost you mean 99.98%. If anyone can find one that’s not that way give me their phone number! 

[hornian 5201]

13 hours ago, LCHorn said:

We're all doing that; trust me, it's not more fun for us on the lender side. 

Just be glad you're not self-employed with a jumbo loan. 

That’s me. 
 

Honestly it wasn’t that bad, but then I actually keep quickbooks up to date and file my taxes on time, so showing P&L and providing tax returns and bank statements wasn’t that hard. They did want to verify my employment and I emailed “I’m self employed, so I verify that I’m still employing myself” and the UW accepted it. 

[hornian 5201]

On 7/22/2020 at 9:38 AM, hornian said:

I bought a new house before we moved/listed our old house (both in Austin, moving to 78731 from 78759). In case anyone is wondering what the Austin Real Estate market is like right now:

Wound up doing a jumbo mortgage on new house, because rates were so low it wasn't worth trying to do a 2nd mortgage to get to conforming and then pay off when we sold old home - I had 20% without the sale of that house so just planning to use funds from sale of old home to do projects on new house and pay off some higher interest rate debt. Got a great rate - tried to get Phil/Thad my business on that one, but they were honest that they couldn't touch the rate with their lenders. I appreciate that honesty.

Officially closed on new house on Monday of last week, moved on Thursday (still not completely moved out - stuff left in garage at old house we are getting a little at a time). Listed old house on Friday 7/17 (that was a beast getting it ready to show the day after a move) for a price that was a little under the appraised value (we have a recent appraisal for a HELOC before we knew we were going to be moving). Realtor hosted open house on Saturday 7/18. Had multiple offers by Sunday 7/19. Realtor told everyone to get highest/best offer in by 6:00 p.m. Monday 7/20.

We wound up with a total of 6 offers, all at or over asking. Several of them were cash offers, all were fairly quick close.

Officially under contract as of about 9:00 a.m. on 7/21 for about 105% of asking price (and a little over our recent appraisal - so we had an appraisal waiver be part of the deal). We also had house pre-insepcted and said we aren't making any repairs, it truly is as-is. 

So, my anecdotal experience is that it's still a seller's market, at least in NW Austin. 

Now I'm already spending the money from the sale of my old house on a huge landscaping project (cleared about a 1/4 acre of cedars and scrub brush, going to terrace and make backyard more usable) before I even have it - always a smart idea. 

MOAR updates:

Got a call from my Realtor on Friday around lunch. “This can’t be good” I thought. It wasn’t. Buyers agent had called, said buyers were a backup on another property they wanted more and just got word they were able to go under contract on that one. So they were canceling our contract during the option period. 
 

Had my agent reach out to the runner up from Monday - they were still in play. So we got the official notice of cancellation and were under contract on the new one in under an hour. And the other contract was actually for $4k more. So I somehow (knock on wood) avoided having to relist after being under contract. My closing will be delayed by 5 days, so not a huge deal. 
 

One wrinkle - the house I’m selling is on septic. First set of buyers had already paid to have septics pumped and inspected - it happened on Thursday during their option period and they terminated the contract on Friday. . The 2nd set of buyers wanted us to pay to pump septic - but don’t have to do that now because previous buyers did that before they canceled the contract. 
 

TL; DR: Was under contract to sell on Monday, buyer canceled contract on Friday, went under contract with another buyer less than an hour later for more money. 

[TKthunder2 4975]

On 7/6/2020 at 6:16 PM, TKthunder2 said:

Just put in our first offer on a house in Austin (currently in Cedar Park).  41k over list price, and we were told that we lost to a “significantly” higher offer.  This market is fucking crazy.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 3:42 PM, TKthunder2 said:

Putting in another offer on a house today.  Attempt #2.

 

On 7/20/2020 at 4:06 PM, TKthunder2 said:

FYI my first offer that we were contingent on just came back to us while we’re still waiting to hear back on #2.

 

On 7/20/2020 at 7:56 PM, TKthunder2 said:

And offer #2 was accepted.  So now we have 5 days to figure out wtf we are doing...

 

On 7/22/2020 at 9:38 AM, hornian said:

I bought a new house before we moved/listed our old house (both in Austin, moving to 78731 from 78759). In case anyone is wondering what the Austin Real Estate market is like right now:

Officially closed on new house on Monday of last week, moved on Thursday (still not completely moved out - stuff left in garage at old house we are getting a little at a time). Listed old house on Friday 7/17 (that was a beast getting it ready to show the day after a move) for a price that was a little under the appraised value (we have a recent appraisal for a HELOC before we knew we were going to be moving). Realtor hosted open house on Saturday 7/18. Had multiple offers by Sunday 7/19. Realtor told everyone to get highest/best offer in by 6:00 p.m. Monday 7/20.

We wound up with a total of 6 offers, all at or over asking. Several of them were cash offers, all were fairly quick close.

Officially under contract as of about 9:00 a.m. on 7/21 for about 105% of asking price (and a little over our recent appraisal - so we had an appraisal waiver be part of the deal). We also had house pre-insepcted and said we aren't making any repairs, it truly is as-is. 

So, my anecdotal experience is that it's still a seller's market, at least in NW Austin. 

 

3 hours ago, hornian said:

MOAR updates:

Got a call from my Realtor on Friday around lunch. “This can’t be good” I thought. It wasn’t. Buyers agent had called, said buyers were a backup on another property they wanted more and just got word they were able to go under contract on that one. So they were canceling our contract during the option period. 
 

Had my agent reach out to the runner up from Monday - they were still in play. So we got the official notice of cancellation and were under contract on the new one in under an hour. And the other contract was actually for $4k more. So I somehow (knock on wood) avoided having to relist after being under contract. My closing will be delayed by 5 days, so not a huge deal. 
 

One wrinkle - the house I’m selling is on septic. First set of buyers had already paid to have septics pumped and inspected - it happened on Thursday during their option period and they terminated the contract on Friday. . The 2nd set of buyers wanted us to pay to pump septic - but don’t have to do that now because previous buyers did that before they canceled the contract. 
 

TL; DR: Was under contract to sell on Monday, buyer canceled contract on Friday, went under contract with another buyer less than an hour later for more money. 

So this is kind of awkward...but glad it all worked out.  Our first offer was on a place only about half a mile down the road from yours.  Since you got more $ and we pumped your septic, you can’t say it was a shitty deal.

[Gil Bang 25865]

the last deal I closed, the buyer had a landscaping business.   Every week he had to send the lender his billings and copies of the checks he received to show that his business was still viable.   

I've got one scheduled to close next thursday.  The lender has already told me it is a "maybe" for Friday at the earliest due to all the extra BS. 

It's particularly annoying for me, because my client is my tenant in my guesthouse,  and I need to get in there and get that unit dialed in as she's been in there 8 years.  

Meanwhile, I'm really not in a rush, because going forward, I intend to use it as a fucking guesthouse, not as a rental.  We are in the middle of a refi from our 4% fixed, so we will see a pretty significant drop in the payment.  Fair market on the unit is nearly 2,000, so that's a lot of cash to leave on the table.  It's a "never say never" situation, but, at least for the duration of the summer, I'm gonna fuck the GF in the pool without any concern for somebody watching.  If things get tight financially, I can rent the mofo in a New York minute.  

[Mother mopar 3291]

You know the rules

[hornian 5201]

10 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

 

 

 

 

 

So this is kind of awkward...but glad it all worked out.  Our first offer was on a place only about half a mile down the road from yours.  Since you got more $ and we pumped your septic, you can’t say it was a shitty deal.

Funny, not awkward. And not a shitty deal at all. We actually went with your offer originally because of your letter/kids (your kids are about a year younger each than ours) even though it was for a little less $$. We even polled our neighbors on the street and asked them if they wanted new neighbors with kids or new neighbors with dogs before we went with y’all’s offer originally. You missed out on a great street, but I’m sure you’ll love the neighborhood. I wouldn’t have moved if the house we are in now wasn’t 1 block from family. We were about to pull a trigger on an addition to get 1 more bedroom there before this house came on the market. Good luck!

[UTPhil2006 3790]

13 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

 

 

 

 

 

So this is kind of awkward...but glad it all worked out.  Our first offer was on a place only about half a mile down the road from yours.  Since you got more $ and we pumped your septic, you can’t say it was a shitty deal.

Is this actually true you two were on the same deal?

[TKthunder2 4975]

26 minutes ago, UTPhil2006 said:

Is this actually true you two were on the same deal?

It is true.  You can see from my quoted stuff that we had put an offer in earlier and were selected as the contingent.  After nearly two weeks we figured that deal had moved past option and was going towards close so we started looking again and found in the same neighborhood @hornian’s house, which was awesome and we quickly put in offer #2 on Sunday, but then we were told it was a multiple offer situation and best and final was due on Monday (but per advice from realtor and Gil Bang we had already made our best so we didn’t change anything).  While waiting to find out about offer #2, we hear back that buyers of our first offer had backed out (I’ll talk more about it after we close) and then we also got selected for #2 as well.  Due to the short notice and added uncertainty around #1 we decided to go under contract with both properties so we could do our due diligence.  We did septic pump and inspection on offer #2 but other than a small thing or two it was a pretty normal inspection report but offer #1 had offered to drop their sales price to offset some things and ultimately that was the house we chose so we termed #2 on Friday and are now out of our option period with #1 closing in a few weeks.

[UTPhil2006 3790]

Ha thats crazy.  Small world.

[Gil Bang 25865]

Funny, not awkward. And not a shitty deal at all. We actually went with your offer originally because of your letter/kids (your kids are about a year younger each than ours) even though it was for a little less $$. We even polled our neighbors on the street and asked them if they wanted new neighbors with kids or new neighbors with dogs before we went with y’all’s offer originally. You missed out on a great street, but I’m sure you’ll love the neighborhood. I wouldn’t have moved if the house we are in now wasn’t 1 block from family. We were about to pull a trigger on an addition to get 1 more bedroom there before this house came on the market. Good luck!

On my listings, I never ever show those letters to the sellers. I think it’s dangerous and can lead to lawsuits.

[Chewbacca 7727]

On my listings, I never ever show those letters to the sellers. I think it’s dangerous and can lead to lawsuits.

A letter is how we got our mountain house.

[hornian 5201]

1 hour ago, Gil Bang said:

On my listings, I never ever show those letters to the sellers. I think it’s dangerous and can lead to lawsuits.

How so? Is there a rule where you are about this?

On the buy side, I’ve purchased 3 houses over the last 8 years with a letter helping out. 

On the sell side the letter helped my wife and I make decisions between otherwise very close offers. 

[BradInATX 9208]

On 7/22/2020 at 11:52 AM, Wulaw Horn said:

Yep. I think this is completely going on in a lot of places. And also I think there are a fair amount of sellers not necessarily wanting to put house on the market right now with Covid. It’s led to an inventory problem in a lot of areas we are dealing with. 

Anecdotal, but we were looking at big houses (4+ bedrooms) with multiple acres and finding that market, as a buyer, to be incredibly difficult. Houses not even spending a weekend on the market before pending, meaning we never even got to go see them. That kind of stuff.

Her entire realty group is seeing evidence of what you said. Big houses are flying off shelves. Everyone is working from home and expecting that to continue after Covid. So even the DINKs want 3+ bedrooms to accomodate an office for each of them. She also said that the suburbs and exurbs like we were looking at are absolutely blowing up for the same reason. If you're working from home and you're not living that hipster downtown life, what's the difference between living 25 and 45 minutes away from the city center? Difference is 45 minutes out you can't see your neighbors taking a piss from your backyard.

We ended up with the absolute perfect house for us (barring disaster over the next two weeks) but got damn it was a tough process. 

On top of that we actually had a really tough time selling our current house because, despite being a huge house <10 minutes from downtown less than 750k (unicorn), it's missing some key updates. Realtor said everyone wants move-in ready, Magnolia modern rustic. Eat a dick, Chip and Joanna. 

/rant

Edited July 27, 2020 by BradInATX

[Gil Bang 25865]

How so? Is there a rule where you are about this?
On the buy side, I’ve purchased 3 houses over the last 8 years with a letter helping out. 
On the sell side the letter helped my wife and I make decisions between otherwise very close offers. 

What you meant to say was “on the sell side, the letters help my wife and I discriminate against people we didn’t like for some stupid reason”.

That is the only reason any seller should have a look at one of those stupid letters. You have the offers in front of you. The only consideration should be which offer is the strongest. You don’t need to know how many kids the buyers have, which church they attend, that the kids play soccer, any of that horseshit.

In my opinion, any realtor that showed you those letters is doing you a huge disservice and setting you up for a potential discrimination lawsuit.

The money should do the talking, not the bullshit

[Gil Bang 25865]

What you meant to say was “on the sell side, the letters help my wife and I discriminate against people we didn’t like for some stupid reason”.

 

That is the only reason any seller should have a look at one of those stupid letters. You have the offers in front of you. The only consideration should be which offer is the strongest. You don’t need to know how many kids the buyers have, which church they attend, that the kids play soccer, any of that horseshit.

 

In my opinion, any realtor that showed you those letters is doing you a huge disservice and setting you up for a potential discrimination lawsuit.

 

The money should do the talking, not the bullshit

Buyer one offers X. Buyer two offers X +2000. Buyer three offers X +4000. All have the same escrow period.

 

What is a legitimate reason for accepting an offer from buyers one or two?

 

You need more information right?

 

OK, buyer one’s kids are named Jaden and Melanie.

 

Buyer 2 wants the house because it’s walking distance to the Lutheran Church they attend every Sunday and where they got married.

 

You don’t know anything about buyer three, except that they have $140,000 cash, credit scores in the high 700’s, and are putting 40% down.

 

Which offer do you take?

[Gil Bang 25865]

@hornian was on tapa before, now on the laptop.   

You're the lawyer here.   If you tell me I'm full of shit, I'll accept it.   

My thinking is this:  I want to protect my seller by having them accept the offer that's to their financial advantage.   Of course, they will see the buyer's last name, and I suppose they could draw conclusions about Francis and  Mary Murphy, Irving and LInda Goldstein, Jose and Christina Gomez, and Mohammed and Nebila Tehranizadeh.  (Extreme examples for illustration) 

But, if the seller doesn't know whether they have children and how many, what church they attend, what their occupations are, how long they've been married, etc,  isn't that better for the seller?   The seller can determine which offer is best without considering all the other bullshit, and nobody can accuse the seller of discrimination.  

Now, is the highest offer always the best offer?  Of course not.  There are several factors to consider.  But why the fuck should the other bullshit ever be considered by the seller? How does it serve any purpose other than to potentially cause problems?

The fucking letters are bad in general, and often beyond stupid.  

"We are the proud parents of two terrific kids.  Kyle is 15, and is taking honors courses at City H.S., where he maintains a 3.9 GPA.  He is the President of the Chess Club, and his acne is currently under reasonable control, thanks to the good folks at Dermatology Associates.   Norah is 13,  just got braces (and her first period), and plays the violin and cello. She makes tic-toc videos with her BFF Janie.

She hopes to follow in her mother's footsteps and become a ZTA at USC.  

 

 

 

[blacklab 11841]

What if you're good friends with your neighbors and would prefer your house didn't turn into a airbnb party house?

Have there been many discrimination lawsuits in California due to someone not selling to a protected class?

I've never heard of one in Texas.

[dcar00 14023]

46 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

@hornian was on tapa before, now on the laptop.   

You're the lawyer here.   If you tell me I'm full of shit, I'll accept it.   

My thinking is this:  I want to protect my seller by having them accept the offer that's to their financial advantage.   Of course, they will see the buyer's last name, and I suppose they could draw conclusions about Francis and  Mary Murphy, Irving and LInda Goldstein, Jose and Christina Gomez, and Mohammed and Nebila Tehranizadeh.  (Extreme examples for illustration) 

But, if the seller doesn't know whether they have children and how many, what church they attend, what their occupations are, how long they've been married, etc,  isn't that better for the seller?   The seller can determine which offer is best without considering all the other bullshit, and nobody can accuse the seller of discrimination.  

Now, is the highest offer always the best offer?  Of course not.  There are several factors to consider.  But why the fuck should the other bullshit ever be considered by the seller? How does it serve any purpose other than to potentially cause problems?

The fucking letters are bad in general, and often beyond stupid.  

"We are the proud parents of two terrific kids.  Kyle is 15, and is taking honors courses at City H.S., where he maintains a 3.9 GPA.  He is the President of the Chess Club, and his acne is currently under reasonable control, thanks to the good folks at Dermatology Associates.   Norah is 13,  just got braces (and her first period), and plays the violin and cello. She makes tic-toc videos with her BFF Janie.

She hopes to follow in her mother's footsteps and become a ZTA at USC.  

 

 

 

the Zeta's at SC suck...not even close to top tier.   hard pass.

[Murfdogg21 4412]

4 hours ago, BradInATX said:

On top of that we actually had a really tough time selling our current house because, despite being a huge house <10 minutes from downtown less than 750k (unicorn), it's missing some key updates. Realtor said everyone wants move-in ready, Magnolia modern rustic. Eat a dick, Chip and Joanna. 

Hope this trend keeps up if we end up listing in the next 3 months. We have the “urban modern farmhouse” shit to get Joanna Gaines’ panties drenched. 

[GabrielsHorn 2142]

13 hours ago, BradInATX said:

we actually had a really tough time selling our current house because, despite being a huge house <10 minutes from downtown less than 750k (unicorn), it's missing some key updates. Realtor said everyone wants move-in ready, Magnolia modern rustic. Eat a dick, Chip and Joanna. 

As a buyer who is in a market similar to Austin, it's probably because doing all the work you'd like on a place is a complete shitshow right now. Getting contractors to come out and give estimates is really tough as building supplies are limited, and now doesn't really feel like the time to buy a house, move-in, and then have a bunch of strangers in it for a few weeks.

That being said, the market right now for move-in ready houses is a bloodbath. 

[hornian 5201]

11 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

@hornian was on tapa before, now on the laptop.   

You're the lawyer here.   If you tell me I'm full of shit, I'll accept it.   

My thinking is this:  I want to protect my seller by having them accept the offer that's to their financial advantage.   Of course, they will see the buyer's last name, and I suppose they could draw conclusions about Francis and  Mary Murphy, Irving and LInda Goldstein, Jose and Christina Gomez, and Mohammed and Nebila Tehranizadeh.  (Extreme examples for illustration) 

But, if the seller doesn't know whether they have children and how many, what church they attend, what their occupations are, how long they've been married, etc,  isn't that better for the seller?   The seller can determine which offer is best without considering all the other bullshit, and nobody can accuse the seller of discrimination.  

Now, is the highest offer always the best offer?  Of course not.  There are several factors to consider.  But why the fuck should the other bullshit ever be considered by the seller? How does it serve any purpose other than to potentially cause problems?

The fucking letters are bad in general, and often beyond stupid.  

"We are the proud parents of two terrific kids.  Kyle is 15, and is taking honors courses at City H.S., where he maintains a 3.9 GPA.  He is the President of the Chess Club, and his acne is currently under reasonable control, thanks to the good folks at Dermatology Associates.   Norah is 13,  just got braces (and her first period), and plays the violin and cello. She makes tic-toc videos with her BFF Janie.

She hopes to follow in her mother's footsteps and become a ZTA at USC.  

 

 

 

If I'm a REIT or investor or selling a rental home or something like that, highest offer/lowest closing costs/fastest close (or some combination of the three) is what I'm looking for.

If I'm a human being who knows his neighbors, expects to continue to send them holiday cards, invite them to parties (and get invited to parties by them), and just generally know the makeup of the neighborhood and want to sell to a family instead of selling to a flipper, those three considerations matter, but finding a "good fit" matters as well. 

The legal definition in Texas of "Fair Market Value" for real estate is the price agreed at between a willing seller, with no obligation to sell, and a willing buyer, with no obligation to buy. As a seller, I'm not obligated to sell to the highest bidder - what if (like Bob says) it's an out-of-state buyer who is going to turn it into an AirBnB party house?  What if they have a higher offer, but we know there are high chances of them canceling during the option period and someone with a slightly lower offer is more likely to stick through to closing? What if they have a lower offer, but it's all cash and closes in 2 weeks?

For me, on this last transaction, it was important that the home go to a family, not an investor or a flipper. I was willing to make a little less money for that to happen, and we didn't consider offers without a letter (of the 6 offers we received, 4 had letters). It was so important to me that I had a contractual exclusion in the listing agreement for a friend of mine who I would have sold it to for under appraised value to try to get him, his wife, and their son on the street I'm leaving and the only way to make that work was without realtor's commissions and a lower sales price. On the other hand, I sold a lake house earlier this year that was an investment property, and I couldn't have cared less who it went to and I went with the highest offer. But as a seller, with no obligation to sell, that's my prerogative.

As far as I know (I am a layer, but not Real Estate), as long as it's an arms-length transaction and I'm not a business/government agency who is subject to certain rules and regulations, I can sell to whomever I want, and there is not much a potential buyer can do to say I should have accepted their offer. It's just that - an offer. Once a contract is signed there's a lot of recourse if the seller backs out, but until then there's no obligation to take an offer just because it has some metric that the potential buyer thinks will make the deal happen (highest price being the most common). 

[BradInATX 9208]

12 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

"We are the proud parents of two terrific kids.  Kyle is 15, and is taking honors courses at City H.S., where he maintains a 3.9 GPA.  He is the President of the Chess Club, and his acne is currently under reasonable control, thanks to the good folks at Dermatology Associates.   Norah is 13,  just got braces (and her first period), and plays the violin and cello. She makes tic-toc videos with her BFF Janie.

She hopes to follow in her mother's footsteps and become a ZTA at USC.  

 

 

 

 

I would give the house to the other person if I got this letter from someone. I realize your version is tongue in cheek, but if I got an actual serious version of anything like the above, they'd have to money whip me into selling to them because I'd really be trying not to sell it to them.

Edited July 27, 2020 by BradInATX

[Gil Bang 25865]

Letters like that are more common than you could imagine.

[Brew 3044]

I’m with Gil, it would seem to me that the letters would cause a potential discrimination claim or at least could give the impression of a discrimination issue. I would think it would be an issue for realtors, but I’ve never seen one in our market. Markets/states are different though, so what do I know.

Now is definitely a crappy time to buy a house with projects. We bought a house in December on 5 acres inside the City that we had planned on doing an addition on in the Spring. We have contracted with two different builders at this point and neither one have been able to start on it. We moved on to pool/pool house/backyard work a couple months ago and have had the same issue.

[Gil Bang 25865]

Here's a letter I got not long ago.  Names have been changed

 

Hello, We saw your home online, and we were drawn to its beauty and unique characteristics. However, nothing could have prepared us for the splendor and nostalgia that our eyes took in when we saw your home in person. You have such an inviting home! We fell in love with your home, as we began to think of how our children might enjoy playing in the big back yard, swimming in the beautiful pool, or shooting hoops on the basketball court. We have been blessed with three wonderful adopted children. Though we were not able to have children biologically, we have been given the gift and privilege of raising and enjoying the love and laughter of our children! Your home’s location is central to so many of our family’s activities in the community. Our children play soccer and baseball just up the street at the Vista Sports Park. My son plays basketball at the YMCA. Our church, Calvary Chapel , is but a few minutes away. As a professor in the field of education (John) and Jane as a stay-athome mom, we are privileged to have a schedule whereby we are home quite often. As a family, it has been our desire to find such a home in which we can make a lasting investment of love and friendship with family, friends, and our community. We have always practiced hospitality, and have enjoyed the satisfaction of opening our home to offer people a sense of belonging and love. To whomever you decide to sell your home to, I am convinced that they too will enjoy making lasting memories as I am sure you have done. All the best! The Jones Family

 

Here's the fucking thing:  I don't believe that the kids were adopted.  The seller had adopted children.   It was obvious in the family photos...the kids looked NOTHING like the parents.

I think that these motherfuckers said that the kids were adopted to try to pluck the heartstrings of the sellers.  That's why I never showed the  letter to my clients. 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Gil Bang

[blacklab 11841]

9 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

I think that these motherfuckers said that the kids were adopted to try to pluck the heartstrings of the sellers. 

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

20 hours ago, hornian said:

If I'm a REIT or investor or selling a rental home or something like that, highest offer/lowest closing costs/fastest close (or some combination of the three) is what I'm looking for.

If I'm a human being who knows his neighbors, expects to continue to send them holiday cards, invite them to parties (and get invited to parties by them), and just generally know the makeup of the neighborhood and want to sell to a family instead of selling to a flipper, those three considerations matter, but finding a "good fit" matters as well. 

The legal definition in Texas of "Fair Market Value" for real estate is the price agreed at between a willing seller, with no obligation to sell, and a willing buyer, with no obligation to buy. As a seller, I'm not obligated to sell to the highest bidder - what if (like Bob says) it's an out-of-state buyer who is going to turn it into an AirBnB party house?  What if they have a higher offer, but we know there are high chances of them canceling during the option period and someone with a slightly lower offer is more likely to stick through to closing? What if they have a lower offer, but it's all cash and closes in 2 weeks?

For me, on this last transaction, it was important that the home go to a family, not an investor or a flipper. I was willing to make a little less money for that to happen, and we didn't consider offers without a letter (of the 6 offers we received, 4 had letters). It was so important to me that I had a contractual exclusion in the listing agreement for a friend of mine who I would have sold it to for under appraised value to try to get him, his wife, and their son on the street I'm leaving and the only way to make that work was without realtor's commissions and a lower sales price. On the other hand, I sold a lake house earlier this year that was an investment property, and I couldn't have cared less who it went to and I went with the highest offer. But as a seller, with no obligation to sell, that's my prerogative.

As far as I know (I am a layer, but not Real Estate), as long as it's an arms-length transaction and I'm not a business/government agency who is subject to certain rules and regulations, I can sell to whomever I want, and there is not much a potential buyer can do to say I should have accepted their offer. It's just that - an offer. Once a contract is signed there's a lot of recourse if the seller backs out, but until then there's no obligation to take an offer just because it has some metric that the potential buyer thinks will make the deal happen (highest price being the most common). 

That’s all well and good but Gils not wrong- most of the time that letter bullshit is happy horseshit designed to keep browns, blacks and other undesirables out of the neighborhood. 
Hard pass and that’s coming from a pretty conservative dude. The fact that this nonsense happens in the most liberal bastion of this state and is designed to make sure neighborhoods stay exclusionary to POC (or you select out for “the good ones”) makes me sad and somewhat appalled by the hypocrisy. 
Also makes me love Houston that much more. Yeah, we are a swamp with horrible Weather, awful critters, absurd sprawl and no sense  of definition in neighborhoods. 
But- we are inclusive and open to absolutely anyone and anything and there’s always one more door to knock on. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[aggie08 21380]

I wrote a letter that 100% got us our house. I never intended to, but a realtor/flipper put in some bullshit offer that said "I'll pay $3k more than the highest bidder up to X dollars." We were the highest offer out of 20+ bidders. Our realtor told us to just counteroffer with X dollars (about $8k over our initial bid) and get it over with, but that was higher than we were comfortable paying, and on principle I didn't want to play the flipper's game.

The house had been owned by the same guy (who died in it) since 1957 with exactly zero renovations in 60 years...we had to tear it down to its studs the first weekend we owned it. So the letter was to the guy's adult kids and basically said "We're a young couple who actually intend to live in your parent's house, not flip it, but we need that $8k to fix this heap of shit" as nicely as possible. Nothing too sappy or exaggerated.

That said, I can guarantee that had the flipper's offer been $5k+ over highest bidder, the kids would have used my letter to wipe their asses with.

[UT_OB1 2200]

@UTPhil2006

Phil or anyone else with an opinion - a local bank is offering to give us a secured line of credit.  To use our rental properties though, they would need to be ReFi’d with the bank. I know rates on non traditional tend to be higher, but I didn’t think they were this much higher.  Do these seem reasonable to you?  
 

5 yr loan, 20 amortization, 5.3%
5 yr, 15 am, 5.05

5 yr, 10 am, 4.8

All have a 1% origination fee

[jimmyjazz 45513]

On 7/23/2020 at 8:02 AM, ZB'Tejas said:

TCAD has my house at $390 a sqft... a recent appraisal had it at $450 a sqft. But my neighbors (that is very similar to mine) just sold for $500 a sqft.

Where is this?  TCAD has me at $255/sf, due in part to zealous protesting of taxes on my part.  Based on observation, I think the house MIGHT pull $300/sf.  This is in NW Hills (78731), so it's not an undesirable location.  $450-$500 per sf in Austin must be smaller houses near downtown?

[hornian 5201]

22 hours ago, Brew said:

I’m with Gil, it would seem to me that the letters would cause a potential discrimination claim or at least could give the impression of a discrimination issue. I would think it would be an issue for realtors, but I’ve never seen one in our market. Markets/states are different though, so what do I know.

Now is definitely a crappy time to buy a house with projects. We bought a house in December on 5 acres inside the City that we had planned on doing an addition on in the Spring. We have contracted with two different builders at this point and neither one have been able to start on it. We moved on to pool/pool house/backyard work a couple months ago and have had the same issue.

I'm just a simple country lawyer, but what discrimination claim? There's no law (state or federal) that I'm aware of that says a private seller has to sell to a private buyer. 

18 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

Here's a letter I got not long ago.  Names have been changed

 

Hello, We saw your home online, and we were drawn to its beauty and unique characteristics. However, nothing could have prepared us for the splendor and nostalgia that our eyes took in when we saw your home in person. You have such an inviting home! We fell in love with your home, as we began to think of how our children might enjoy playing in the big back yard, swimming in the beautiful pool, or shooting hoops on the basketball court. We have been blessed with three wonderful adopted children. Though we were not able to have children biologically, we have been given the gift and privilege of raising and enjoying the love and laughter of our children! Your home’s location is central to so many of our family’s activities in the community. Our children play soccer and baseball just up the street at the Vista Sports Park. My son plays basketball at the YMCA. Our church, Calvary Chapel , is but a few minutes away. As a professor in the field of education (John) and Jane as a stay-athome mom, we are privileged to have a schedule whereby we are home quite often. As a family, it has been our desire to find such a home in which we can make a lasting investment of love and friendship with family, friends, and our community. We have always practiced hospitality, and have enjoyed the satisfaction of opening our home to offer people a sense of belonging and love. To whomever you decide to sell your home to, I am convinced that they too will enjoy making lasting memories as I am sure you have done. All the best! The Jones Family

 

Here's the fucking thing:  I don't believe that the kids were adopted.  The seller had adopted children.   It was obvious in the family photos...the kids looked NOTHING like the parents.

I think that these motherfuckers said that the kids were adopted to try to pluck the heartstrings of the sellers.  That's why I never showed the  letter to my clients. 

 

That's a shitty letter. I wouldn't have responded well to it as a seller either. And it's not anything like the letters I have written. Maybe I'm just a better writer than those people. 

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s all well and good but Gils not wrong- most of the time that letter bullshit is happy horseshit designed to keep browns, blacks and other undesirables out of the neighborhood. 
Hard pass and that’s coming from a pretty conservative dude. The fact that this nonsense happens in the most liberal bastion of this state and is designed to make sure neighborhoods stay exclusionary to POC (or you select out for “the good ones”) makes me sad and somewhat appalled by the hypocrisy. 
Also makes me love Houston that much more. Yeah, we are a swamp with horrible Weather, awful critters, absurd sprawl and no sense  of definition in neighborhoods. 
But- we are inclusive and open to absolutely anyone and anything and there’s always one more door to knock on. 

Plot twist: The family we are selling to, who wrote a letter (and sent a photo too! Gasp!) are "browns, blacks, and other undesirables" to use your words. I could give two shits about ethnicity. What I cared about was a family who is going to actually live in the house, I didn't want to sell to an investor or someone who was not going to live there. That's my prerogative as a seller, and you made a pretty big leap to say that the information is used to be exclusionary or was not inclusive or open to POC. It was exclusionary to a flipper/investor, but so what? They can go spend their money somewhere else.  

Edited July 28, 2020 by hornian

[Hank Scorpio 17712]

Sounds like we’re looking at a class action against Hornian. PM me for details. 

[ZB'Tejas 593]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

Where is this?  TCAD has me at $255/sf, due in part to zealous protesting of taxes on my part.  Based on observation, I think the house MIGHT pull $300/sf.  This is in NW Hills (78731), so it's not an undesirable location.  $450-$500 per sf in Austin must be smaller houses near downtown?

House is in Central East Austin (78702) and I suppose smallish (~2400 sqft).

Here is one close by that just got listed:

https://www.redfin.com/TX/Austin/1014-E-8th-St-78702/home/31372547

[troph 24548]

Why do Evangelical Christian peeps think disclosing that fact is a positive in a letter like that? I would not wish judgmental church goers on my worst enemy.

 

We sold our house recently to an older couple and when we came by to pick up last items we caught the old man smoking pot - a joint - on the deck while staring at the lake.

 

That’s the right kind of buyer. And I woulda sold it to them no matter with a letter saying we want to get stoned and stare at the lake as we grow older.

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

31 minutes ago, hornian said:

I'm just a simple country lawyer, but what discrimination claim? There's no law (state or federal) that I'm aware of that says a private seller has to sell to a private buyer. 

That's a shitty letter. I wouldn't have responded well to it as a seller either. And it's not anything like the letters I have written. Maybe I'm just a better writer than those people. 

Plot twist: The family we are selling to, who wrote a letter (and sent a photo too! Gasp!) are "browns, blacks, and other undesirables" to use your words. I could give two shits about ethnicity. What I cared about was a family who is going to actually live in the house, I didn't want to sell to an investor or someone who was not going to live there. That's my prerogative as a seller, and you made a pretty big leap to say that the information is used to be exclusionary or was not inclusive or open to POC. It was exclusionary to a flipper/investor, but so what? They can go spend their money somewhere else.  

Should have said I wasn’t talking about you (meant to but when I thought of it I didn’t have time to edit. I’ve seen too many of your posts to know you are good people. But yeah- if you don’t think those letters serve to keep out the riff raff I don’t know what to tell you. Gil and I are about as far apart as can be on CR but we see this one the same way.