Hank Aaron - RIP

[miguelito 11337]

I read something Bill James or someone wrote: imagine not knowing anything about baseball, and reading the Baseball Encyclopedia front to back.  You would start with Hank Aaron, and you might think that his stats are normal, or representative of the sport.  But then every player after that would pale in comparison.

[Underdog 28868]

That isn't near as bad as Milo Fucking Hamilton blabbering all over the occasion.  

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

That Letterman clip where hes dressed like Mr Rogers is pretty amazing.  Evidently that was just his third show.  Dude was just getting started and had Hammerin Hank

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

4 hours ago, mdmost said:

It always bothered me that those two douchebag fans ran on the field and couldn't just let the man have his moment. 

 

I know it was a different time, but I’ve always wondered how these dipshits actually got all the way to the point where they were running side by side with him. No security? No other players trying to stop him? What if they were going out to attack him. Just seems wild to me. 

[Beau Vine 54837]

12 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I know it was a different time, but I’ve always wondered how these dipshits actually got all the way to the point where they were running side by side with him. No security? No other players trying to stop him? What if they were going out to attack him. Just seems wild to me. 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=5504664

[dcar00 14601]

While I'd rather he was able to round the bases all by himself in the moment, I think its actually pretty cool given that nothing happened.  after all the race talk/concerns 2 teenage white kids jump out of the stands to pat him on the back.  sure they were in it to get on TV and who knows how much they cared about Aaron breaking the record but I always found it interesting. 

and yep I watched it on my couch with my mom on our little 12 inch color TV.

[jimmyjazz 46470]

I vividly remember watching #715.  We had a black and white TV in our family room, and my Dad was off in a back room doing some work.  Apparently I was supposed to tell him every time Hank came up.  Oops. 

 

"Dad, he did it!" 

"What the hell?"

 

My bad, pops.

 

[mininghorn88 2320]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

I vividly remember watching #715.  We had a black and white TV in our family room, and my Dad was off in a back room doing some work.  Apparently I was supposed to tell him every time Hank came up.  Oops. 

 

"Dad, he did it!" 

"What the hell?"

 

My bad, pops.

 

This made me chuckle.

 

RIP Hammerin Hank.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

God damn... THE #1 man in baseball when I was growing up. If you had his card you were a king in the card collector gang.

I remember watching him hit 715. Sitting in my grandparents house watching on a little color TV, and thinking it was the greatest thing I'd ever seen, thinking  I was part of the history at that moment.

[Helobious 9503]

Now that’s one guy I’ve absolutely heard of before. RIP to a legend. 

[Valmy77 13431]

9 hours ago, Lobo said:

ESPN already showing a tear jerking documentary.  I feel so sorry for those of you who don’t understand why he picked this week to die.  

Oh? Do tell.

 

RIP to the greatest position player of all time. Consistent greatness personified.

[Longhornstampede 3192]

13 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

Damn.  Very sad day.  You could take away every HR he ever hit and he still has 3000 hits. 

2297 RBI over a 23 year career. Literally 3 RBI short of averaging 100 RBI for every season of his career

[Longhornstampede 3192]

13 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

 

 

DADP

Edited January 23, 2021 by Longhornstampede
DumbAssDoublePost

[Hate 20157]

Don't get too excited about RBI. An analytics dork will be by shortly to tell you why that is an overrated and antiquated stat. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Hate

[TexArcher 38409]

RIP to a great player and a class act.

[runthebone 8131]

I remember as a kid reading that he hit crosshanded growing up.  I wonder if that is what made his wrists so strong and fast.

[AnTiM 1678]

I clearly remember watching the live broadcast of home run 715 and the knot in my throat as he rounded the bases.  Despite all the spite and hate mail Aaron had to put up with, he was always a gentleman.  Rest in peace Hammerin' Hank, your spot in Cooperstown is well earned.  

[Pato del Muerto 52855]

RIP Mr. Aaron

[Guest Lobo]

10 hours ago, Hate said:

Don't get too excited about RBI. An analytics dork will be by shortly to tell you why that is an overrated and antiquated stat. 

Yeah, I'm just now after 15 years of fighting it starting to get behind certain sabremetrics/bill james/moneyball shit.  

But in the end, either use your eyes (BB), body (HBP/PB), reputation (IBB or distract the battery so a guy out there can steal a base), or the club in your hand to bring the guys out on the basepaths wearing shirts that look like yours to the place you're currently standing.  Shit, charge the fucking mound and knock the fucking pitcher out of the game if you have to.  I'll be an RBI junkie until my last day around the game.  Do whatever you need to do, but bring the boys back home /benchcoach-rogerwaters

[Beau Vine 54837]

Stark:

Quote

I paid a visit to Henry “Hank” Aaron’s Baseball Reference page Friday morning. If you’ve never been there yourself, I highly recommend it.

The numbers on that page may not capture the grace, the dignity or the towering presence of this man. But they tell a story that literally gave me goosebumps all the same. No man who ever played baseball had a career quite like No. 44. So it would be my honor to be your tour guide as we look at 10 of my favorite Hank Aaron numbers.

161

Imagine having an OPS+ as incredible as 161 in one big-league season. Well, that was Aaron’s OPS+ over the 20 seasons from 1955-74. Here are just some of the many active players who have never had an OPS+ that good in any season:

Freddie Freeman
Josh Donaldson
Anthony Rendon
Manny Machado
Nolan Arenado

But Hank Aaron? He had an OPS+ that good over 20 seasons!

His average season over those two decades, incidentally: .311/.379/.572/.951, with 36 home runs. Mike Trout, who has had his moments, has had exactly one season in his career in which he beat that slash line, with that many home runs. And Hammerin‘ Hank had 20 seasons as That Guy. Wild.

20s/30s

You think it’s safe to say that Aaron aged better than pretty much everyone around him?

Aaron’s OPS in his 20s: .947
Aaron’s OPS in his 30s: .948

In a way, doesn’t that sum up the essence of Hank Aaron’s greatness? He was the most dependable superstar on earth — year in, year out … and decade in, decade out.

20/40

And while we’re on that subject, Aaron had a season with double-digit home runs (13) at age 20. He also had a season with double-digit home runs (20) at age 40. You don’t see that much.

In fact, only three players in history ever had double-digit homers in both their age 20 and age 40 seasons:

Willie Mays
Ted Williams
Hank Aaron

How ’bout that Mount Rushmore?

30-30

The 30-30 Club wasn’t even a thing when Aaron reached the big leagues in 1954. That would be because back then, only one player had ever spliced together 30 homers and 30 steals in the same season. And that player was Ken Williams … in 1922!

So when Aaron put up a staggering 44-homer, 31-steal season in 1963, it carved out this place in history:

• It made him just the third member ever of the 30-30 Club, along with Ken Williams and that Mays guy, who had actually done it twice (1956-57).

• But it made Aaron the first member of the 40-30 Club — and the true measure of how hard that was to do is that no one else would hit 40-plus bombs and steal 30-plus bases in the same season for another quarter century (when José Canseco went 40-40 in 1988).

• And one more thing about Aaron’s season in ’63: In all the years before or since, only two other players have stolen 30-plus bases in a season in which they hit as many home runs as Aaron launched that year: Larry Walker (49 HR, 33 SB) for the 1997 Rockies and Alfonso Soriano (46 HR, 41 SB) for Jim Bowden’s 2006 Nationals.

25

Hank Aaron played in 25 All-Star Games. Yeah, 25. Granted, it helped that four of those games came at a time when baseball was holding two All-Star Games a year. Nevertheless …

Those 25 All-Star Games are the most in history. But there’s also this:

The three active players who have appeared in the most All-Star Games are Mike Trout, Clayton Kershaw and Justin Verlander. They’ve played in eight apiece. Which means …

The three most celebrated All-Stars of this era have played in fewer All-Star Games combined (24) than Aaron played in all by himself.

3,076

I didn’t want this piece to overlook what Hank Aaron meant to his franchise — the Braves of both Milwaukee and Atlanta. So you know what that number 3,076 represents? It’s the games he played just for the Braves.

Though it’s true he also played 222 for the Brewers, Aaron is one of only four men who played more than 3,000 regular-season games for any franchise. The other three:

PLAYER	GAMES	TEAM
Carl Yastrzemski	3,308	Red Sox
Stan Musial	3,026	Cardinals
Cal Ripken Jr.	3,001	Orioles

So how does a man become a local icon forever and ever? That’s how!

100

Technically, that number, 100, probably shouldn’t be here, because the metric it represents — 100 strikeouts — is one Hank Aaron never reached in any season of his career.

Yes, in 23 seasons, Aaron never whiffed 100 times. Not once. In his ability to produce how he produced while never striking out 100 times, he just about stands alone in the history of his sport.

MOST CONSECUTIVE SEASONS, UNDER 100 K’S, 300+ PA
Hank Aaron: 23
Carl Yastrzemski: 23
Pete Rose: 23

MOST CONSECUTIVE SEASONS, UNDER 100 K’S, 10+ HR
Hank Aaron: 23
Al Kaline: 20
Carl Yastrzemski: 20
Cal Ripken Jr.: 20

MOST CONSECUTIVE SEASONS, UNDER 100 K’S, 20+ HR
Hank Aaron: 20
Babe Ruth: 16
Barry Bonds: 15
Willie Mays: 15

Oh, and did you know that, at age 40, in 1974, Aaron had a 20-homer season in which he struck out just 29 times? That’s a feat we wouldn’t even recognize today. You know the last time anybody struck out fewer than 30 times in a season in which he hit at least 20 home runs? Oh, only four decades ago, when George Brett had 24 homers, 22 K’s in 1980.

208

Sorry, but we’re not quite done with these Aaron strikeout notes. They’re too much fun. So what’s that number, 208? Well, Hank Aaron played 3,298 regular-season games. He struck out more than once in just 208 of them. Which means …

• There are three hitters since 1900 who have had three times that many multi-strikeout games: Adam Dunn (686), Jim Thome (653) and Reginald M. Jackson (653).

• Plus there are two active hitters who have ripped off more than twice that many multi-punchout games: Chris Davis (554) and Justin Upton (495).

• And as long as we’re talking active hitters, you know how many have already had more multi-strikeout games than Hank Aaron had in 23 seasons? How about 51! That group includes the likes of Miguel Sanó (70 more multi-K games in 2,759 fewer games than Aaron) … and Mike Zunino (246 multi-K games despite 647 fewer homers than Aaron). … And coming right up, it’s Joey Gallo (202 multi-K games in the first 473 games of his career).

6,856

We don’t pay much attention to total bases. But since Aaron ran up many more of those total bases than anyone in history, it’s time to pay attention right now. And thanks to YES Network’s James Smyth for inspiring me to convert all of this into miles.

• If you stretched out all of Aaron’s total bases, they’d stretch nearly 117 miles — which would nearly get you from Atlanta to Augusta during Masters week.

• Aaron rolled up a staggering 1,063 more total bases than Babe Ruth, the man whose home run record he broke. That’s just over 18 miles of total bases — longer than a stroll along the entire length of the Hank Aaron State Trail in Milwaukee County.

• And that’s an incredible 722 more total bases than the next-closest player in history, Stan Musial, who had 6,134. That difference would come to nearly 12 1/2 miles worth of total bases — which is just shy of the distance between Truist Park and a street named Hank Aaron Drive. And where would you find Hank Aaron Drive? It just happens to run alongside the site of the old Fulton County Stadium, the place where Hammerin’ Hank once became baseball’s all-time home run king.

3,771

Finally, we need to spend a few moments pondering Hank Aaron’s hit total, because 3,771 is a freaking lot of hits. Let’s think about it this way:

• That’s over 1,000 more hits than Chipper Jones (2,726).

• That’s over 2,000 more hits than Mark McGwire (1,626).

• That’s more hits than Johnny Bench and Hank Greenberg got combined (3,676).

• It includes more hits just for the Braves (3,600) than Pete Rose got for the Reds (3,358), than Derek Jeter got for the Yankees (3,465) or than Yaz got for the Red Sox (3,419).

• And, as so many have pointed out today, it’s so many hits that even if you subtracted all 755 of Aaron’s homers, he would still be a proud member of the 3,000-Hit Club.

We mention that because there are only five men whose careers started in the last 80 years who can say they got 3,000 hits that weren’t home runs. Those men are Pete Rose (4,096), Paul Molitor (3,085), Stan Musial (3.055), Tony Gwynn (3,006) … and the legendary Henry Louis Aaron (3,016). But only one of them even hit 500 home runs, let alone 755.

So here’s to the late, great Hank Aaron. May we savor his remarkable numbers forever.

 

[cochamps 1879]

On 1/22/2021 at 10:00 AM, hookemATL said:

RIP to the homerun king.

This one hurts.

Pos rep for the clip from Home Run Derby.  Hank won that too,

[Macanudo 13081]

When Bob Gibson and Sandy Koufax say "I had no idea how to pitch him" well, that's approaching GOAT territory.  Gibson was not someone to compliment anybody so that clip is outstanding.

 

[Guest Lobo]

One of his kids intimated, in a separate interview, that he was hoping to hold on to see Biden sworn in since he lived through so much vitriolic racism celebrated by the outgoing President and his base.  Obviously Hank was old, but apparently it was touch 'n go with him the last several weeks and he hung on to see a little sliver of hope after the decades of bullshit he had to put up with that rebooted itself recently in his country.  Hank hung on 48 hours after Trump left the White House.  I'd like to think that gave him a little moment of well-deserved peace.  NoCR, but you can't discuss Hank Aaron's legacy and not touch on the racist bullshit he had to endure to get to his rightful place on the Mount Rushmore of Hitters.  You can't talk about the legacy of guys like Jackie and Hank and Gibson without trying to understand their other challenges.  His family said that week made him a little happier and a little more at peace so I mentioned it. 

Aaron is in the Hall as one of the greatest of all-time and has his rightful place in heaven with the Baseball Gods.

This is NOT the interview I was referencing, it was just some passing talk I saw last week.  But this is a from a few years ago on UT's campus...it's incredible (2/3 baseball, 1/3 politics & race):  

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Lobo

[Beau Vine 54837]

One of my best friends worked in ticket sales for the Braves as his first job and posted this on FB:
 

Quote

I have no way to describe the impact of the words from Susan Bailey, Mr. Aaron's Executive Assistant.   "Juan and Rodney Henderson, Mr. Aaron would like to speak with you".

Due to the "outspoken"  "diplomatic"  and "calculated" nature of my personality I have been out in front of many "incidents" which led me being called into meetings, by those in authority,  to either discuss or explain a "position" or "action" which may have been misunderstood or viewed as problematic or controversial. Since the age of 7,  I have been called into the offices of several catholic school principals, three Parish Pastor's offices, the Arch Bishop of Seattle, the Seattle Police Chief (multiple times), College Presidents, Security Officers, Numerous Elected Officials,  and, and of course several meetings with supervisors and managers who I have worked with and for.  In the majority of these meetings I have been cool as a cucumber ready to state my case without worry, fear or trepidation.  There is not one of those meetings that even compared to hearing that "The Home Run King" wanted to speak to me.  

I revered Mr. Aaron.  For a young black man that dedicated the early part of his life to chasing the dream of playing Major League Baseball Mr. Aaron was beyond iconic.  In my Catholic School upbringing we were warned about the worship and idolization of false gods.  In this moment I could only make the assumption, after careful analysis,  if a living God exists it would be Henry Aaron.  The memory of Mr. Aaron circling the bases after breaking Babe Ruth's record is one of my initial and lasting baseball memories.  The sense of pride at the time now only deepened into my consciousness as I  now am pursuing a career in Major League Baseball.  Two years earlier Al Campanis said "Black's lack the necessities" to work in the front office.  Here we are and the preeminent Black Man in not only Major League Baseball but in our country is calling me and Rodney to his office.  YES! .......I am going to stop by the restroom to relive myself before we go in.  

Ms. Bailey, escorting us to his office,  told us to calm down and that Mr. Aaron just wanted to "speak to you boys".  I thought to myself  "Just keep your mouth shut and don't say anything stupid because Jose' would kill me if Mr. Aaron fired me."  Ms. Bailey ushered us into Mr. Aaron's office, while he was still on his phone, and sat us down at his desk.  I was surprised for some reason Mr. Aaron's office was large but quite modest given who he was.  I "tried" not to listen to his conversation but my natural habit of eavesdropping could tell that Mr. Aaron was speaking to a medical professional.  "Uh huh.  Uh huh, Uh huh" Mr. Aaron responded to the caller by saying "OK, I will check back with you and set the appointment."  He then hung up the phone, leaned forward, and introduced himself to Rodney and me. "Good morning guys.  Sorry about that.  I am Henry Aaron."  In one of those rare moments that close friends of mine can't fathom: I was speechless.  He then asked "Do you guys know anything about CAT Scans?".  Because my mother worked at a hospital I knew about them.  "It is a computed tomography scan that uses X Ray's to see inside your body.  The images have more detail than a regular X-ray.  You are placed in a tube for the procedure.  Many people feel a sense of claustrophobia if they don't like compressed spaces."  

Mr. Aaron had a blank look on his face and he looked directly at me. The answer came of so smooth yet with a sense tension  it sounded like Eddie Haskell speaking to Ward Cleaver.  I was afraid he was going to tell me that I was full of STUFF.  Mr. Aaron looked me in the eye and replied "Does it hurt?" Mr. Aaron spoke to Rodney and I in fatherly terms that morning.  Mr. Aaron told us the basics that have lasted for a lifetime. Mr. Aaron  said  "show up on time,  work hard and to present yourselves the best you can"  He also assured us"I am willing to help support you in anyway possible. Just ask."

He assured us he was in complete support of our success.  And that he did.  I became frustrated after a six week slump where I did not sell one season ticket package during our sales season. It was painful to see my name at the bottom of the list with a big ZERO on it.  I never admitted it to Rodney or Brien Blakely but I almost quit and went back home to Seattle.  I cried at night and started to lose belief in my self.  One night while walking through our offices heading home after another tough day I ran into Mr. Aaron.  He asked how I was doing.  I put a good face on things "I am doing great Mr. Aaron"  He said to me "That is what I have heard.  I hear you are doing very well. Keep it up". The next day I made my first sale and in the next month I had four of the largest sales weeks of our year.  

I told a customer that for purchasing the ticket package I would get him an autographed ball from any player he wanted.  He said "I would like a ball from Mr. Aaron". I told Susan Bailey that I opened my big mouth and promised a season ticket purchaser a ball.  The next day in my mail box there were 6 autographed balls from Mr. Aaron.

Once you got to know him Mr. Aaron carried a big "needle" and would poke you about things.  Mr. Aaron was a huge Cleveland Browns fan and would give me all sorts of feedback about Chuck Knox and the Seattle Seahawks. Mr Aaron told me "Juan, you know your Coach is more famous than the team." Mr. Aaron and Danny Goodwin (Yes. That Danny Goodwin who is the only player in MLB history to be drafted 1st in two separate drafts) seemed to get a kick that our Free Safety was from Colgate and our QB was from Milton College. Mr. Aaron asked "Juan, your QB is from Milton College? Where is that? And your Free Safety is from Colgate?"  I replied "Milton college no longer exists."  He raised his eyebrows shook his head and walked off.  The day after the Seahawks won a big game against the Raiders  Mr. Aaron called me and said "I guess it does not matter where  you are from when you get it done."

I believe there was affinity and connection  because he also came from such humble beginnings and with hard work, commitment, passion, and dedication he became arguably the greatest baseball player of all time.  I wish we had cell phones and social media 30 something years ago.  I certainly would have populated my page with selfies and pictures of and with Mr. Aaron.  BUT what I received from him was something so much more.  At the very formative stage of my career I was told by Mr. Aaron how to work, act and behave if I was going to be successful. I also learned that you have to look to  support young people who maybe looking to find their way.  Even if all seems to be going well.

To answer your question Mr.. Aaron, CT scans don't hurt but they reveal what is inside.  Today I my heart is heavy for the loss of the man who took time to share with me  what was inside of him.  Forever Greatful.and Thank You Mr. Aaron.  RiP.

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Beau Vine

[dcar00 14601]

On 1/25/2021 at 10:17 PM, Dr. Beeper said:

Yep. Hank is also perpetually underrated. I’ve got him as the #2 player of all time and it’s not really that close. Loved his game and his personality. 

I'm not sure he's perpetually underrated.  when they had the all century team he got the 3rd most votes behind Gehrig and Ruth.  his limited post season hurts him some against Ruth.

my mount rushmore is Ruth, Aaron, Williams, Mays.  Ty Cobb can stick it...

[Huckleberry 33521]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

I'm not sure he's perpetually underrated.  when they had the all century team he got the 3rd most votes behind Gehrig and Ruth.  his limited post season hurts him some against Ruth.

my mount rushmore is Ruth, Aaron, Williams, Mays.  Ty Cobb can stick it...

I've got Tris Speaker ahead of Cobb because fuck Cobb that's why.

[dcar00 14601]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

I've got Tris Speaker ahead of Cobb because fuck Cobb that's why.

well I've got Musial over both of them but Hornsby is over Cobb because Texas...

[Guest Lobo]

6 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

I've got Tris Speaker ahead of Cobb because fuck Cobb that's why.

So'd you tell him to stick it?!?   

Mine would be Williams, Aaron, Ruth, and a half-dozen dozen other guys from which I can never decide.  On what coulda/mighta been---Joe Jackson?  Do you still have to acknowledge that the best pure base hitter may have been Cobb?  Do you shed your hate of the Cardinals after being away from Chicago for 25 years and acknowledge Musial?  Do you go with somebody current if he's steroid free like Pujols?  Wasn't Hornsby just as good as any of them?  And what about the guy who maybe the best all-around player to ever step onto the grass-Willie Mays?  Anyway, the Mount Rushmore thing for hitters is always an interesting debate.  But if Hank ain't on yours, then your dad and baseball-reference.com didn't teach you the game very well.  RIP Mr. Aaron.

 

[dcar00 14601]

8 hours ago, Lobo said:

So'd you tell him to stick it?!?   

Mine would be Williams, Aaron, Ruth, and a half-dozen dozen other guys from which I can never decide.  On what coulda/mighta been---Joe Jackson?  Do you still have to acknowledge that the best pure base hitter may have been Cobb?  Do you shed your hate of the Cardinals after being away from Chicago for 25 years and acknowledge Musial?  Do you go with somebody current if he's steroid free like Pujols?  Wasn't Hornsby just as good as any of them?  And what about the guy who maybe the best all-around player to ever step onto the grass-Willie Mays?  Anyway, the Mount Rushmore thing for hitters is always an interesting debate.  But if Hank ain't on yours, then your dad and baseball-reference.com didn't teach you the game very well.  RIP Mr. Aaron.

 

I know you weren't responding to me but Musial is close.  I have to go with Mays due to fielding and speed.  beyond that there are probably 20 guys.  Gehrig, Cobb, Henderson, Bench, Clemente, F Robinson, Mantle, etc.

 

 

[dcar00 14601]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Pos rep, particularly for the “none of us could stand the sonofabitch when we were alive, so we told him to stick it” reference. Cobb seems to be universally loathed. But he was a hell of a player. 

I think Hank gets overlooked even as highly rated as he is. I think he gets perpetually placed beneath Mays, and I totally disagree there. Mays was a great player, Top 10 no doubt and probably Top 5. But he doesn’t approach Hank in my opinion. It’s Ruth, then Aaron, then Ted, and I probably put Walter on my Mount Rushmore. 

Pitchers and Catchers should almost have a separate rushmore because they are such specialized positions and highly value things other than hitting.

Bench, Berra, Rodriguez, Cochrane...but I can see Carter, Dickey, Campanella, Fisk all replacing Cochrane

Pitcher is going to take some thinking.

[dcar00 14601]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Yeah fair enough. That 4th guy is hard. Probably Cobb, Mays or Musial. To me, the Top 3 are no brainers. 

Speaking of sticking it to Cobb, if I were God, I’d create a separate Mt. Rushmore for Cobb and stick him there with all black guys. Maybe bad mofos like Gibson that will throw at Cobb’s head constantly. 

I don't think Gibson cared what color you were.

[Guest Lobo]

That's another thing you've got to hand it to Aaron on...not taking anything away from Ruth, Cobb, et. al.  But Aaron really comes up in the era of the start of specialized pitching.  He did what he did, year in and year out for 23 years, against 4-man rotations with quality relief pitching later in the games.  Yeah, it wasn't Rivera or even Hoffman...but he he does most of his damage in a time of better pitching...and he does it every damn year.  Again, Ruth and Cobb and Williams would have destroyed any pitcher with a fungo bat no matter the year...and guys like Bonds and Pujols have the benefit of body armor and drugs coursing through their veins that would make a racehorse jealous and so they could conquer the highly specialized pitching they faced.

But Aaron went against a really good era of pitching, damn good IMO and it was changing on the fly (particularly in the NL).  And he just hammered the shit out of everybody across multiple eras.  Again, nothing away from Cobb or Hornsby but there was a time all you needed to be the "Ace of the Staff" was a mustache, a painter's cap, and the willingness to throw 450 innings per season.  

Also blown away by the fact he hits 755 home runs and only strikes out more than 81 times in three separate seasons.  That's insane.  In a 162-game season, he averages, over his whole career, just 68 strikeouts per year.  Nowadays you get a guy who can hit just 20 bombs a year, track for 300 in a career, he's given the berth to strikeout 125 times a year and still probably gets a bonus.  Not only did Hank produce at a crazy level, he just didn't make many mistakes.  We can discuss his incredibly underrated fielding as well where the same holds true.  

[Huckleberry 33521]

2 hours ago, dcar00 said:

Pitchers and Catchers should almost have a separate rushmore because they are such specialized positions and highly value things other than hitting.

Bench, Berra, Rodriguez, Cochrane...but I can see Carter, Dickey, Campanella, Fisk all replacing Cochrane

Pitcher is going to take some thinking.

Pedro Martínez is the greatest pitcher of all time.

Fight me. 

[dcar00 14601]

53 minutes ago, Lobo said:

That's another thing you've got to hand it to Aaron on...not taking anything away from Ruth, Cobb, et. al.  But Aaron really comes up in the era of the start of specialized pitching.  He did what he did, year in and year out for 23 years, against 4-man rotations with quality relief pitching later in the games.  Yeah, it wasn't Rivera or even Hoffman...but he he does most of his damage in a time of better pitching...and he does it every damn year.  Again, Ruth and Cobb and Williams would have destroyed any pitcher with a fungo bat no matter the year...and guys like Bonds and Pujols have the benefit of body armor and drugs coursing through their veins that would make a racehorse jealous and so they could conquer the highly specialized pitching they faced.

But Aaron went against a really good era of pitching, damn good IMO and it was changing on the fly (particularly in the NL).  And he just hammered the shit out of everybody across multiple eras.  Again, nothing away from Cobb or Hornsby but there was a time all you needed to be the "Ace of the Staff" was a mustache, a painter's cap, and the willingness to throw 450 innings per season.  

Also blown away by the fact he hits 755 home runs and only strikes out more than 81 times in three separate seasons.  That's insane.  In a 162-game season, he averages, over his whole career, just 68 strikeouts per year.  Nowadays you get a guy who can hit just 20 bombs a year, track for 300 in a career, he's given the berth to strikeout 125 times a year and still probably gets a bonus.  Not only did Hank produce at a crazy level, he just didn't make many mistakes.  We can discuss his incredibly underrated fielding as well where the same holds true.  

thats why Aaron is just behind Ruth. his consistency and the era.  pitching did start to change in the 60's but what Ruth did in comparison to the others of his era was otherworldly as it relates to power hitting.   the closest I can compare it to is Bolt, Gretzky, Chamberlain.

Williams is right there behind Aaron though given he lost prime years to the war(s)

I leave what Bonds did for another discussion.

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, what Ruth did was markedly above what Aaron did, but as I said-Aaron was playing during a time when pitching was really starting to change in terms who faced day after day, inning after inning.  Because of that, I guess it's Ruth as 1, and Aaron as 1a.  Aaron had tougher competition and as such, was a notch below statistically.  It makes sense from an era comparison.  Ted falls to third, again because of missed time for not one but two wars.  He misses seasons where'd be 24, 25, 26, 33, and almost all of 34.  He'd be first, but numbers are numbers.  But yeah, those are my 3.  Always entertaining to discuss the 4th, but if those aren't your Top 3...we haven't much to talk about.  I think the pitching Mount Rushmore is a different Mountain obviously.  For another thread.  

[Beau Vine 54837]

I'm sorry, but I still shake my head about all the Ruth and Cobb worship.  

No one would ever go into a discussion about the greatest NBA player ever and argue George Mikan or go to a greatest NFL player ever discussion with Red Grange.  Or Art Ross for the NHL.  

Ruth and Cobb dominated lily-white leagues filled with glorified minor leaguers.   

[Beau Vine 54837]

2 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Pedro Martínez is the greatest pitcher of all time.

Fight me. 

Pedro, Clemens, RJ, and Maddux is my pitching Rushmore.

[Guest Lobo]

25 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I'm sorry, but I still shake my head about all the Ruth and Cobb worship.  

No one would ever go into a discussion about the greatest NBA player ever and argue George Mikan or go to a greatest NFL player ever discussion with Red Grange.  Or Art Ross for the NHL.  

Ruth and Cobb dominated lily-white leagues filled with glorified minor leaguers.   

I guess this is a debate for another thread since it seems we're all on the same page about the late, great Henry Aaron.  

But I get it, Ruth and Cobb never faced a 6'5" Dominican throwing hard sliders.  And while lilly-white, it was an incredibly saturated and dense league of talent.  while they weren't many pitching specialties, the 7 or so pitchers on each team were damn good.  Only a handful of teams in each league, you didn't get 20 of your at-bats each week against AAA call-ups, spot starters, scrub long relievers, and the like.  They were white, which is a shame, but each league was the best 50 pitchers there were.  Not the dilution of talent we see now---though the speciality of a staff lends its own set of challenges.  Cobb would still be a better Ichiro today against any pitcher.  I think Ruth would have have a dropoff in terms of overall slugging/OPS.  I think he still hits for average and power just not to the obscene degree he did back then.  but we'll never know.  But again, you can drop Williams or Aaron into any era of baseball from 1880 to 1980 (and despite the racism), they would have knocked the ever living shit out of the ball day in and day out for 20 years.  I haven't seen enough film from Ruth or Cobb to know what kinda pitches they could hit or not hit (Just Ken Burns highlight reels).  But I've seen enough footage of Ted and Hank seeing enough kinda pitches (don't matter what race the pitcher was, what mattered was his 'stuff')...and those guys could hit the fuck out of any Peruvian-Cuban cut fastball bullshit from here to eternity.  Lots of guys could.  But those two cats could do it every fucking week until you died of old age.  

What were we talking about? Oh yeah, baseball.  the game has its flaws but it was the first major sport to correct them.  Hispanics been playing MLB ball a lot longer than any other sport.  Damn shame it took until Jackie Robinson, but they got it done.  Got Asia involved decades before any other sport.  Damn Swedes and Dutchmen been milling about the clubhouse since before I was born.  Game ain't perfect but it keeps trying. And Henry Aaron was the shining example of that.  Took a lump of shit from fans and turned into the most consistent career I think I'll ever see.  And did it with a humble smile that kinda hinted, "Fuck you, I'm Hank Aaron!" And rightfully so.

[Huckleberry 33521]

49 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I'm sorry, but I still shake my head about all the Ruth and Cobb worship.  

No one would ever go into a discussion about the greatest NBA player ever and argue George Mikan or go to a greatest NFL player ever discussion with Red Grange.  Or Art Ross for the NHL.  

Ruth and Cobb dominated lily-white leagues filled with glorified minor leaguers.   

Weird take on a thread (rightfully) talking about how awesome Aaron was. He played against a lot of shitty players who had offseason jobs.

The only thing that makes sense is comparing them to their era. Or else all time discussions are pointless. 100 years from now everyone you think is great now would suck compared to those future guys.

[dcar00 14601]

19 hours ago, Lobo said:

I guess this is a debate for another thread since it seems we're all on the same page about the late, great Henry Aaron.  

But I get it, Ruth and Cobb never faced a 6'5" Dominican throwing hard sliders.  And while lilly-white, it was an incredibly saturated and dense league of talent.  while they weren't many pitching specialties, the 7 or so pitchers on each team were damn good.  Only a handful of teams in each league, you didn't get 20 of your at-bats each week against AAA call-ups, spot starters, scrub long relievers, and the like.  They were white, which is a shame, but each league was the best 50 pitchers there were.  Not the dilution of talent we see now---though the speciality of a staff lends its own set of challenges.  Cobb would still be a better Ichiro today against any pitcher.  I think Ruth would have have a dropoff in terms of overall slugging/OPS.  I think he still hits for average and power just not to the obscene degree he did back then.  but we'll never know.  But again, you can drop Williams or Aaron into any era of baseball from 1880 to 1980 (and despite the racism), they would have knocked the ever living shit out of the ball day in and day out for 20 years.  I haven't seen enough film from Ruth or Cobb to know what kinda pitches they could hit or not hit (Just Ken Burns highlight reels).  But I've seen enough footage of Ted and Hank seeing enough kinda pitches (don't matter what race the pitcher was, what mattered was his 'stuff')...and those guys could hit the fuck out of any Peruvian-Cuban cut fastball bullshit from here to eternity.  Lots of guys could.  But those two cats could do it every fucking week until you died of old age.  

What were we talking about? Oh yeah, baseball.  the game has its flaws but it was the first major sport to correct them.  Hispanics been playing MLB ball a lot longer than any other sport.  Damn shame it took until Jackie Robinson, but they got it done.  Got Asia involved decades before any other sport.  Damn Swedes and Dutchmen been milling about the clubhouse since before I was born.  Game ain't perfect but it keeps trying. And Henry Aaron was the shining example of that.  Took a lump of shit from fans and turned into the most consistent career I think I'll ever see.  And did it with a humble smile that kinda hinted, "Fuck you, I'm Hank Aaron!" And rightfully so.

yes the Ruth Cobb swings in 1920 against the different pitching(pitches) of today would be tough but IMO, they wouldn't swing like that now but I bet they'd hit the shit out of the ball either way. hand eye coordination is hand eye coordination.

and good point you made that people forget is the number of teams and players made for a more condensed talent pool.

[Beau Vine 54837]

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