Hey PK -- What would you say you do here?

[Burt Macklin 19,023]

12 minutes ago, JBJ said:

I watch some games from the past two years and some from 2016 (when they made the CFP).

He runs three basic defenses.  The 2-4 Over is his basic nickel package and what we will see the most of.  To go bigger or dime he goes to either a 3-4 Tite or 3-2 Tite.

---

I'll start with the 2-4.  

Both DTs are essentially the same position. The defense as a whole plays field and boundary, but the DTs will align to the TE if one exists.  So either player can be the NT on any given snap.  They shade the guards (2i and 3).  It's a single-gap scheme for them, but they do not shoot gaps.  They very aggressively seek contact.

The OLBs are for all intensive purposes DEs except they stand at the snap.  They are a bit tighter on the line than what you'd expect out of a 2-4, and they don't try to speed rush every snap.  It's a much more passive position than DT, featuring about equal parts of read-and-react vs working the edge.  The field side tends to be more aggresive from what I saw, but that might be a personnel decision moreso than schematic.

The ILBs play more similar than I expected.  One does tend to be smaller and rangier, because he covers more ground in coverage. However, both usually play over the guards as true ILBs would.  They do cheat (line up in the wrong gaps) for coverage against certain offensive sets, but it is not an every down thing.

The statistics say the secondary is split evenly between single and two-high safety looks, but his 2-4 definitely favors single safety.  The single safety plays very deep while the other DBs play tighter than usual.  Despite the single-high look it's a modern matchzone.  Because television hides 2 or 3 DBs every snap, it's difficult to tell if he has favorite coverages.  The CBs play a slide technique regardless of coverage.

Blitzes feel somewhere between rare and normal.  It's not really a do the same thing every play defense though.  He's just more likely to stunt or overload one side than bring an extra rusher.

---

The 3-4 Tite (404) is for large packages and run-heavy teams and readily morphs to Bear (every lineman covered) in goalline situations.  Every position is similar to above but with another large DT instead of nickel.  The NT either 2-gaps or Lags, the DEs attack a single gap like above. More 2-high safety from this look.

---

The 3-2 Tite is for Leach and is pretty much Todd Orlando (that's who Lake based it around).  He plays it very simple and passive, usually dropping 8.  It is more bend-not-break than the other two.  The front is small for this with one or both OLBs playing DE.

Good stuff. The first thing I checked to see when we hired him is if he two gaps his DL in the 2-4-5 and I was very glad to see he doesn’t. DL can make plays and get sack numbers in this defense. Shelton and Vea had some huge numbers for him. I also think Coburn, Sweat, and Collins are really good fits for his defense. Ojomo will fit the 3 man front stuff well. I’m a little unsure how he’ll hold up as one of the 2 DL. 

I’m also a little wary of how much cover 1 he runs, but he at least uses the NFL version with dropping the safety very deep, and he mixes it up enough to not be too predictable. He’s clearly made it work over the years. 
 

I noticed that too with his blitzes. He’s usually still only bringing 4, and seems to use them more as a changeup so the offense doesn’t know who’s coming every single play instead of a Todd Orlando-style try to scheme up a sack with exotic pressure kind of thing. 
 

I love how multiple he is. Like you mentioned, his defense runs basically a 4 man front, 3 tite, and traditional 3-4. This gives him the ability to matchup with each opponent and even completely shift in game if he needs to, which is great to see compared to both Orlando and Ash who would basically always run the same thing even if it wasn’t a good match for the opponent. 
 

I still want to dive in more, but I really, really like what I see from him. Even though he’s so multiple he still focuses on fundamentals and let’s his players make plays instead of trying to win the game on the whiteboard. 

[Elmer_Fudd 22,215]

I'm guessing our 2 stand up OLB/DE's will be some kind of combination of Jones/Thornton/Bimage/Dorbah?  Will Ojomo be in this group or the DT's?

[Machinator 32,099]

3 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

I’m also a little wary of how much cover 1 he runs, but he at least uses the NFL version with dropping the safety very deep, and he mixes it up enough to not be too predictable. He’s clearly made it work over the years. 

I'm wondering if this is a Jimmy Lake feature.

[B00M 6,415]

7 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I started watching the first video but turned it off after a few minutes after he talked about getting comments about stopping the air raid and having 4 plays vs wazzu and cal where they were 3x1 in 10 personnel. Because who in the big 12 runs that?

why do people still believe that half the big 12 runs air raid and throws 60 times a game?  Does nobody see the rushing attempts and yards that the oklahoma schools put up?  Ksu?  Isu?  Who other than maybe tech?

Hopefully some of these other videos are more relevantly informative. 

How would you define what OU does? That's what we need to be designed to stop. 

[Burt Macklin 19,023]

16 minutes ago, Elmer_Fudd said:

I'm guessing our 2 stand up OLB/DE's will be some kind of combination of Jones/Thornton/Bimage/Dorbah?  Will Ojomo be in this group or the DT's?

I think Bimage will definitely start. Dorbah’s really on the small side right now. UW’s OLBs were usually in the 250s or 260s since they have to set the edge. I think this is definitely the weak spot in our defense personnel-wise right now. I’m wondering if PK might change up his usually scheme to get more DL on the field since we’re better there than OLB. 

15 minutes ago, Machinator said:

I'm wondering if this is a Jimmy Lake feature.

It’s certainly possible. It’s hard to know since they’ve been together for the last 8 years. 

[Burt Macklin 19,023]

3 minutes ago, B00M said:

How would you define what OU does? That's what we need to be designed to stop. 

Lincoln Riley is the best offensive mind in CFB and possibly all of football. And he runs a scheme that’s pretty much unique to only him. No defense is going to consistently stop him, and part of what makes him great is that he can hurt you in so many ways. There’s no single defensive scheme out there that counters what he does. The 3 tite that ISU runs and Baylor ran under Rhule/Snow has probably had the most success but all they really do is just make him slightly less efficient by having the 3 tite set to stop the run and then drop 8 so they don’t let receivers behind them and force the QB to consistently execute on long drives. 

PK does run the 3 tite a good bit and he often drops 7 or 8 in coverage, but he doesn’t usually use the cloud zone that ISU does. PK’s multiplicity will be a big help for him. Riley is great at finding your weak spots and with PK’s ability to run so many different sets, it will help avoid that to a certain extent. Defending Riley requires a ton of discipline and you basically have to concede that he’ll beat you on a lot of plays, but make OU earn every point by putting together 10-12 play drives. I do think PK teaches the fundamentals necessary to have the discipline down, but it’s impossible to say how he’ll go about defending Riley until we see it. 

[Somnio 751]

Isn't 250-260 DE size?  Wouldn't we just play our DEs as OLBs now?

[Burt Macklin 19,023]

20 minutes ago, Somnio said:

Isn't 250-260 DE size?  Wouldn't we just play our DEs as OLBs now?

We don’t have good DEs this year. That’s the problem. 

[gmr548 16,576]

49 minutes ago, Elmer_Fudd said:

I'm guessing our 2 stand up OLB/DE's will be some kind of combination of Jones/Thornton/Bimage/Dorbah?  Will Ojomo be in this group or the DT's?

 

20 minutes ago, Somnio said:

Isn't 250-260 DE size?  Wouldn't we just play our DEs as OLBs now?

Probably so for the most part. Hence the names above. Ojomo may be a tweener in this defense but he'd definitely stick to DT.

The problem is that none of those jump out at you as a difference maker right now. I'd expect Thornton to be adequate given that he was receiving competent coaching at LSU, and he did see some PT there, but if he was a war daddy we'd know it already (and he'd likely not be here). Dorbah definitely projects here eventually but may need another year to gain strength. Then again, if I remember correctly his HS used him as a three-down end at times so he may see some real time if he ends up being the best pass rusher of the group.

My defensive expectations next year are meh just because I don't see where the pass rush comes from.

[Burt Macklin 19,023]

1 minute ago, gmr548 said:

 

Probably so for the most part. Hence the names above. Ojomo may be a tweener in this defense but he'd definitely stick to DT.

The problem is that none of those jump out at you as a difference maker right now. I'd expect Thornton to be adequate given that he was receiving competent coaching at LSU, and he did see some PT there, but if he was a war daddy we'd know it already (and he'd likely not be here). Dorbah definitely projects here eventually but may need another year to gain strength. Then again, if I remember correctly his HS used him as a three-down end at times so he may see some real time if he ends up being the best pass rusher of the group.

My defensive expectations next year are meh just because I don't see where the pass rush comes from.

The pass rush will come from inside. I do wonder if PK will use more of a line like Ash used this year where Collins is a SDE and we use a stand up Jack on the other side. That would allow us to get 3/4 of Coburn, Sweat, Collins, Ojomo on the field at the same time. 

[JBJ 3,654]

3 minutes ago, Somnio said:

Isn't 250-260 DE size?  Wouldn't we just play our DEs as OLBs now?

My initial thought is Bimage and Jett Bush?

There's not much difference between Leo/Jack in the Under and the OLBs in this defense.

Our SDEs will split up. Ojomo is probably 3rd DT.  Bimage at OLB.  Jones who knows.

[Hmmm 155]

IIRC, Ojomo played as a DT in his first year (or second).  This past season, it definitely looked like he reshaped his body and slimmed down to play SDE.  He was noticeably quicker.  If he continues that trajectory, then maybe he'll stay on the outside, however, I think he's more suitable for a DT in next year's scheme. 

9 minutes ago, JBJ said:

My initial thought is Bimage and Jett Bush?

There's not much difference between Leo/Jack in the Under and the OLBs in this defense.

Our SDEs will split up. Ojomo is probably 3rd DT.  Bimage at OLB.  Jones who knows.

What do you mean by this?  

Where does Prince Dorbah fit in?

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Hmmm

[Machinator 32,099]

I haven't checked his twitter enough to know if it's always been this way, but Jett Bush's profile says "Inside Linebacker".

https://twitter.com/jettbush?lang=en

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Machinator

[gmr548 16,576]

7 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

The pass rush will come from inside. I do wonder if PK will use more of a line like Ash used this year where Collins is a SDE and we use a stand up Jack on the other side. That would allow us to get 3/4 of Coburn, Sweat, Collins, Ojomo on the field at the same time. 

That'd be my approach. Texas does not have elite edge talent, except maybe Dorbah, but there some dudes on the interior. Consistent interior pass rush is the path of most resistance, so if we're counting on that I won't hold my breath, but Collins demanding a double team does make life easier for the other three. You only have to win one battle. So at least in an indirect sense I agree with you. And Collins will definitely get his to some extent.

[Burt Macklin 19,023]

1 minute ago, gmr548 said:

That'd be my approach. Texas does not have elite edge talent, except maybe Dorbah, but there some dudes on the interior. Consistent interior pass rush is the path of most resistance, so if we're counting on that I won't hold my breath, but Collins demanding a double team does make life easier for the other three. You only have to win one battle. So at least in an indirect sense I agree with you. And Collins will definitely get his to some extent.

Not really. A lot of NFL teams are prioritizing interior pressure. Coburn was almost unblockable 1 on 1 in 2019, and then he ballooned up to 350 and lost all his explosiveness. If he gets back down to 325ish, then he and Collins will both command a lot of double teams and collapse pockets quickly. 

[JBJ 3,654]

1 minute ago, Hmmm said:

What do you mean by this?  

Where does Prince Dorbah fit in?

"Split up" means the bigger ones go DT and the smaller go OLB.  They are tweeners in this defense.

I'd think Dorbah eventually ends up at OLB.  He needs some size and strength, and he's completely an unproven commodity right now.

[Pato del Muerto 52,492]

1 hour ago, Burt Macklin said:

Not really. A lot of NFL teams are prioritizing interior pressure. Coburn was almost unblockable 1 on 1 in 2019, and then he ballooned up to 350 and lost all his explosiveness. If he gets back down to 325ish, then he and Collins will both command a lot of double teams and collapse pockets quickly. 

Nfl teams have decided that they’d like to have Aaron Donald on their team. How many of them are there?

[Burt Macklin 19,023]

40 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Nfl teams have decided that they’d like to have Aaron Donald on their team. How many of them are there?

Donald, Chris Jones, Fletcher Cox,  Zadarius Smith, Leonard Williams, Stephon Tuitt, Deforest Buckner. All those guys except Tuitt who had 11.5 sacks, are the best pass rushers on their team and rush primarily inside. 
 

Interior pressure is more disruptive to the QB even if it doesn’t get home and with quick passing offenses, rushing on the outside is having less of an effect. Plus, it’s easier to pass rush a G or C than a T.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Burt Macklin

[campcrunk 2,452]

I think there's good reason to be really, really excited about PK and Choate. I don't know if this has been posted or not but here's the 2019 Montana State vs. Montana game. It looks like Choate is also a proponent of PK's 2-4-5 look but he also threw in a bunch of other formations. It looks like the ILBs run to the ball, swarm, and cover well. Based on the first quarter (I'm still watching), to my very untrained eye, they look well coached. I think they're going to make a hell of a team for us on D. 

 

Edit: I also didn't see Montana State commit any penalties in the first quarter. That would be a very welcome change

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by campcrunk

[campcrunk 2,452]

That looked like pretty solid coaching to me. Two penalties all game (plus a really egregious PI that should have been called). MSU generally tackled well. Their DBs got beat in coverage a few times but nothing like what we've been forced to get used to. Special teams coverage pinned Montana inside their own 20 several times. 

 

And Choate went for it on 4th and 1 while up 41-14 on his biggest rival - and scored on the play. It's only a one game sample size and I'm obviously not an analyst or expert. But I really liked what I saw. 

[Zeus 6,022]

14 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I started watching the first video but turned it off after a few minutes after he talked about getting comments about stopping the air raid and having 4 plays vs wazzu and cal where they were 3x1 in 10 personnel. Because who in the big 12 runs that?

why do people still believe that half the big 12 runs air raid and throws 60 times a game?  Does nobody see the rushing attempts and yards that the oklahoma schools put up?  Ksu?  Isu?  Who other than maybe tech?

Hopefully some of these other videos are more relevantly informative. 

this is the only youtuber worth watching IMO

 

 

[Zeus 6,022]

6 hours ago, B00M said:

How would you define what OU does? That's what we need to be designed to stop. 

GT counter

hold a lot

pick plays

simple deep concepts that somehow always seem to work

GT counter

[LTtxfan 49,184]

More evidence on great player development for NFL by PK...

 

[LTtxfan 49,184]

Choate good-bye zoom meeting w/media

Said things started to happen on TEXAS job on Wednesday, and "didn't get legs till yesterday (Friday)" . 

 

Probably hopes coming to TEXAS furthers his career, so don't be surprised if he's only here for a year or two...

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,549]

I don't know if this has been referenced anywhere so siap, but I just realized that when Sark got fired at USC it was right after they lost at home to Washington and PK/Choate. There were obviously other extenuating circumstances that led to his dismissal but losing to Washington certainly cranked the heat up in him to the point of no return.

USC was a double digit favorite. They scored 12 points, turned the ball over three times and were 1/13 on third down. All this with a very pedestrian effort on the part of UW's offense - 17 points including a td on a trick play. Sark said PK had been a thorn in his side for 10 years. Sounds about right. 

[Zeus 6,022]

This guy is good too

https://youtu.be/zuQhazDRp7g

 

[westexhorn 2,017]

1 hour ago, LTtxfan said:

Choate good-bye zoom meeting w/media

Said things started to happen on TEXAS job on Wednesday, and "didn't get legs till yesterday (Friday)" . 

 

Probably hopes coming to TEXAS furthers his career, so don't be surprised if he's only here for a year or two...

this guy is great!

 

[South Austin 52,490]

16 hours ago, B00M said:

How would you define what OU does? That's what we need to be designed to stop. 

OU sucks.  There's no stopping that.

[westexhorn 2,017]

1 hour ago, LTtxfan said:

Choate good-bye zoom meeting w/media

Said things started to happen on TEXAS job on Wednesday, and "didn't get legs till yesterday (Friday)" . 

 

Probably hopes coming to TEXAS furthers his career, so don't be surprised if he's only here for a year or two...

Kinda weird when he was asked about his relationship with Pete Kawasaki and how that played out in his decision that he chose to not speak to it.

[field 225]

26 minutes ago, westexhorn said:

this guy is great!

 

Love his answer about what he'd tell Montana State fans - "I can tell them I never lost to Montana."

He won't be around long, but he'll be great while he's here. 

[quigley 1,563]

Coach K is the hire I'd be most excited about if I rooted for the Horns.

Going back to Boise St, those DL consistently over-performed (the real reason Boise won that famous Fiesta Bowl was that they held Adrian Peterson to < 4 yds/carry and made Paul Thompson throw the ball). Coach K led that group.

I didn't know about Sark's grudging professional respect for Coach K, but it reminds my of Stoops hiring Leach at OU because of the difficulties Stoops had with Leach's offenses.

Regardless of Sark's offenses, I'd anticipate a high floor for Coach K's defenses at UT.

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

10 hours ago, Zeus said:

this is the only youtuber worth watching IMO

 

 

i like him. His bit on Connor at the end tho makes be second guess everything he had just said

Edited January 24, 2021 by Doc Reeves

[ShowMeALoss 143]

45 minutes ago, field said:

Love his answer about what he'd tell Montana State fans - "I can tell them I never lost to Montana."

He won't be around long, but he'll be great while he's here. 

I suppose Coach PK might get a head coaching gig if he does well here and Coach Choate might get promoted to the DC role to maintain continuity.

[westexhorn 2,017]

3 minutes ago, ShowMeALoss said:

I suppose Coach PK might get a head coaching gig if he does well here and Coach Choate might get promoted to the DC role to maintain continuity.

Don't think Coach PK wants HC role though

[Dbeasy 15,048]

This is a fantastic thread. Thanks to Burt and others for adding real value in helping understand how the defensive will look in the fall. 
 

I have two questions. First, how hard will it be for the defense to learn this new scheme? It seems with multiple looks it might take awhile to get it down. 
 

Second, based on what I’ve read, recruiting should be easier because of the focus more on one gap responsibilities, and it sounds like Coburn and others need to lose some weight. What will be the impact on Mitchell and Overshown vs what they’ve been learning this past year? 

[Not a Sock 2,313]

41 minutes ago, ShowMeALoss said:

I suppose Coach PK might get a head coaching gig if he does well here and Coach Choate might get promoted to the DC role to maintain continuity.

According to UW and Boise fans PK isn’t super driven to be a HC and that seems apparent with Jimmy Lake getting the UW HC job over him. The thought of us having our own Brent Venables has me feeling all warm and fuzzie inside.

[SDG 3,319]

3 hours ago, westexhorn said:

Kinda weird when he was asked about his relationship with Pete Kawasaki and how that played out in his decision that he chose to not speak to it.

He mentioned at the beginning of the call he couldn't talk about his new job until the University made it official.  If he spoke about PK he would have confirmed his job is at Texas.   

[LOHorn 277]

Bucks running a lot of two down looks today. Don’t know their personnel well enough to know whether it’s a 2-4-5 or a 3-3-5. 

[LTtxfan 49,184]

6 hours ago, Not a Sock said:

According to UW and Boise fans PK isn’t super driven to be a HC and that seems apparent with Jimmy Lake getting the UW HC job over him. The thought of us having our own Brent Venables has me feeling all warm and fuzzie inside.

Agree with this... PK seems like he enjoys role as DC and hopefully does a great job for several years to come.

Choate's comments lead me to believe that he really wants to be a Head Coach again at a better job than Montana State -- probably would have done a great job at Boise State if they would have hired him.  

[Burt Macklin 19,023]

Kwiatkowski  turned Kevin King into the 33rd pick in the draft. Nuff said. 

[LTtxfan 49,184]

10 hours ago, field said:

Love his answer about what he'd tell Montana State fans - "I can tell them I never lost to Montana."

He won't be around long, but he'll be great while he's here. 

 

Choate is a High Energy Coach --- Awesome!!!

 

[mantis toboggan 850]

For discussion...  any concerns on his defense emphasizing the lb position and what seems to be a dearth of high quality at the position year in and year out in Texas hs ranks?

is it overcome by UT getting the best every year despite the competition?  Having to go national at the position?  Trusting in a dc that is credited with taking quality yet lower ranked kids and developing them?  

Maybe no concern if it is true that that under his scheme the true key are the standing defensive ends?  
 

[cmontexas 3,271]

If we have a good season next year Choate will be a candidate for some good jobs, like Louisiana when Napier leaves or UH when they can Holgerson. Probably also be a good fit if ISU had to replace Campbell

[Butch Had Not 2,969]

For the last 4 years, I always just got the feeling from Orlan_o and ash that they were already defeated before they even played a game.  Always quoted with some variation of "they are going to score..." followed by some quip about stopping then enough.  I think that attitude is going to end now with PK.  

[bullet 1,596]

On 1/23/2021 at 12:32 PM, Pato del Muerto said:

Yeah and 1 of the dbs (or more than 1) is big enough to come in the box and play a linebacker role when called upon.  His 2-4-5 could behave like a 4-3-4 or 3-4-4 or 3-3-5 or 4-2-5 anytime he wants. 

Sounds like a Manny Diaz defense.  If you don't have 1st or 2nd round LBs, the other team eats your lunch because your players are spending too much time thinking.

[texifornia 56,944]

1 minute ago, bullet said:

Sounds like a Manny Diaz defense.  If you don't have 1st or 2nd round LBs, the other team eats your lunch because your players are spending too much time thinking.

You know how you fix that? Actually good coaching. PK hasn't started with Bama-level LBs, but he's made his shit work at the highest level.

[Tex Pete 20,351]

31 minutes ago, mantis toboggan said:

For discussion...  any concerns on his defense emphasizing the lb position and what seems to be a dearth of high quality at the position year in and year out in Texas hs ranks?

is it overcome by UT getting the best every year despite the competition?  Having to go national at the position?  Trusting in a dc that is credited with taking quality yet lower ranked kids and developing them?  

Maybe no concern if it is true that that under his scheme the true key are the standing defensive ends?  
 

To me, he can find the necessary players out of state if he has to. That said, you just have to be able to identify the right kind of player, even if he’s playing a different position in HS. Texas has plenty of great athletes. It’s about identification and development. 
 

People often reference how great Gary Patterson is at that. A great LB may be a HS QB or RB. 

[bullet 1,596]

4 minutes ago, texifornia said:

You know how you fix that? Actually good coaching. PK hasn't started with Bama-level LBs, but he's made his shit work at the highest level.

Hopefully, but he hasn't done it against Big 12 offenses.  Manny was the biggest thing in the SEC which was pretty vanilla on offense back then.  Then he moved to the Big 12.  Greg Robinson turned Manny's mess around in 2 games by simplifying the defense.

Often something unique works until the other coaches figure it out.  And then it collapses.

 

 

[LTtxfan 49,184]

13 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

To me, he can find the necessary players out of state if he has to. That said, you just have to be able to identify the right kind of player, even if he’s playing a different position in HS. Texas has plenty of great athletes. It’s about identification and development. People often reference how great Gary Patterson is at that. A great LB may be a HS QB or RB. 

Talking about athletic players... Hope Tyler Owens sticks around.  Interested to see where he might fit in PK's defense and if Tyler can adapt...

[Pato del Muerto 52,492]

15 minutes ago, bullet said:

Hopefully, but he hasn't done it against Big 12 offenses.  Manny was the biggest thing in the SEC which was pretty vanilla on offense back then.  Then he moved to the Big 12.  Greg Robinson turned Manny's mess around in 2 games by simplifying the defense.

Often something unique works until the other coaches figure it out.  And then it collapses.

 

 

The pac12 is far from the offensive wasteland the sec was when Diaz was there.  He faced leach at msu and helfrich at Oregon every year, plus games with chip Kelly at ucla, whittingham at Utah, and usc.