Making a raised bed...lumber question

[Homercles 10206]

Short version:  

Anyone ever use Lowe’s for lumber delivery site-unseen?  Understand it’s a risk I’ll get some warped boards but I’m building an outdoor planter where perfection isn’t needed. 
 

Long version:  

I’ve decided I’m going to challenge myself a bit and build 3 raised beds for my wife’s birthday based on these plans:  https://www.familyhandyman.com/project/how-to-build-raised-garden-beds/

 

I’ve modified the design by making it square, essentially 4 of the ‘short’ sides with dimensions adjusted up to ~48” width instead of the original plans long rectangle   
 

Have gone over the math, used an online tool to optimize my cut list, used that cut list to price out the lumber (2x2’s, 2x4’s, 2x6’s of various lengths along with the corrugated panels and the plywood panels + all the fasteners) and priced out both Lowe’s and HD.   I want the lumber/panels delivered, some are 16’ long and I don’t have a truck.  It’s like 24 pieces all told for $700ish.  (Holy fuck lumber is expensive right now). 
 

Im going with Lowe’s as they have a 20% discount if you get their credit card, cheaper delivery and better service in my area.  Unfortunately their delivery windows are limited to Monday or Friday next week, and I was hoping to do it this week...which means I don’t really have time to go there today and pick out individual perfect boards.  

I’ve spent so much time going over the plans, cut list, math, borrowed tools lined up, etc that I’m afraid to get some 2x6 that’s massively warped  and ruining my carefully detailed planning.  Then again I’m sure I could try to sneak away today, pick everything out that’s perfect and have them deliver that Monday...but it’d take some time.  Finally I figured I may be overthinking this for a planter where the longest board is 51” and I could just use extra fasteners to hold it in place.  
 

If you’ve read this far, thank you.  I’ve never done a project like this and could use help making a call...either order it all online today for Monday delivery with the risk of a board not being perfect or possibly delay my project by finding time to go in there, pick it al myself, and probably delay it a week.  

[TwiceHorn 31705]

Maybe a note in your order that excessively warped boards are unacceptable for this project, so please select accordingly?

[deadshank 24653]

I’m assuming your going to use pressure treated #2 yellow pine and marine grade plywood for your rough framing.  If so, it will most likely be delivered wet and will immediately begin to twist when unbound.  
 

Keep it bound and tight stacked when not in immediate use    

Use coated deck screws to assemble.   You can “bend” the wet PT wood as the twisting will occur.   Be prepared to have it dry and then shrink to a degree.   
 

The shrinking can be masked with your corrugated panels.  Don’t use galvanized screws or nails in pressure-treated lumber.   Coated deck screws and 316 stainless nails can survive the chemicals in PT LUMBER. 

[NeverMarryAStripper 22062]

That would be like including a note in your online food order to please not spit in your food

i would probably just include some room for error in your order.  If you’ve used a computer program to optimize your cuts and reduce your materials to the minimum there will be a fuck up somewhere that will send you back to Lowe’s.

Edited January 23, 2021 by NeverMarryAStripper

[deadshank 24653]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Maybe a note in your order that excessively warped boards are unacceptable for this project, so please select accordingly?

Pretty much every lumber yard enforces a “no sorting” rule.  

[deadshank 24653]

Oh, and don’t forget to position the crown of your longer horizontal pieces “up” so they will sag back to level over time.  Your upright bracing will help keep it level.  
 

Gravity don’t sleep. 

[Homercles 10206]

1 hour ago, deadshank said:

I’m assuming your going to use pressure treated #2 yellow pine and marine grade plywood for your rough framing.  If so, it will most likely be delivered wet and will immediately begin to twist when unbound.  
 

Keep it bound and tight stacked when not in immediate use    

Use coated deck screws to assemble.   You can “bend” the wet PT wood as the twisting will occur.   Be prepared to have it dry and then shrink to a degree.   
 

The shrinking can be masked with your corrugated panels.  Don’t use galvanized screws or nails in pressure-treated lumber.   Coated deck screws and 316 stainless nails can survive the chemicals in PT LUMBER. 

Awesome.  Thank you.  The screws I’m using are all deck screws except for those that need to drive through the corrugated panels, which were roofing screws that seemed designed for the purpose...they’re zinc plated so I’m sure they won’t last as long as the ceramic ones, which will be used in all the wood-wood structural pieces.  
 

Probably too late to account for that as I decided I was tired of over analyzing every detail and placed the order after double checking all the details.  

[Homercles 10206]

5 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Oh, and don’t forget to position the crown of your longer horizontal pieces “up” so they will sag back to level over time.  Your upright bracing will help keep it level.  
 

Gravity don’t sleep. 

Here you’re saying to put any longer bowed pieces with the ‘top of the curve’ upward before screwing it in...so over time it’ll bend down from gravity.  Right?

 

I am a total newb here but wanted to take on something a little outside my comfort zone but not anything precise like furniture. So who knows wtf will happen.  

[Homercles 10206]

1 hour ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

That would be like including a note in your online food order to please not spit in your food

i would probably just include some room for error in your order.  If you’ve used a computer program to optimize your cuts and reduce your materials to the minimum there will be a fuck up somewhere that will send you back to Lowe’s.

Yep.  Got my neighbor on standby to borrow their truck.  Some of these pieces are $50+ so I didn’t order extra just to have.  Rolling the dice but not on a critical timeline

[deadshank 24653]

36 minutes ago, Homercles said:

Here you’re saying to put any longer bowed pieces with the ‘top of the curve’ upward before screwing it in...so over time it’ll bend down from gravity.  Right?

 

I am a total newb here but wanted to take on something a little outside my comfort zone but not anything precise like furniture. So who knows wtf will happen.  

Yes. Crowns always go up. 

[Jkwellborn 6898]

Go pick it out yourself. You probably won’t like what they send.

[Deej 77298]

I built a 16x20 foot colonial-style shed and had everything delivered by Lowe's. Not a bad piece of lumber in the whole lot. YMMV.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Deej

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

46 minutes ago, Deej said:

I built a 16x20 foot colonial-style shed and had everything delivered by Lowe's. Not a bad piece of lumber in the whole lot. YMMV.

Did it come with powdered wigs ?

[Deej 77298]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Did it come with powdered wigs ?

Yes

[Dbeasy 15269]

Subscribed. I’ve been looking at building a raised garden for a year but haven’t pulled the trigger. You are my guinea pig. 

[horn4life 3819]

Pick it yourself. Lumber is expensive as fuck right now, and getting ANY bad pieces will leave a bitter taste in your mouth.

I needed a ton of Cedar to trim out my facia on a new roof, and I ended up renting a flatbed for like $30 and picked the 16 footers myself at BMC in Cedar Park (NOT the mill store). I chose BMC because they are the one wholesaler I know where I CAN pick my own. I got a price about 20% less than Home Depot so maybe 23-25% less than Lowes.  They are ONLY open on weekdays and I think close at like 4 or 4:30 if memory serves.  I had to sort through a lot of wood, most importantly I got the quality of boards I wanted.  

There are several Wholesale distributors in the Austin area that will sell direct, but you need to be able to manage 16 foot lengths.  

I spent the extra on Cedar when I built an elevated bed a few years back.  I just like the way it looks, but very expensive right now for sure.  But the most rot resistant, and the most impressive if a gift for wife.  My only other STRONG SUGGESTIONs are 1)design it so that you see no screws!!!  It takes a little more work, but has such a nice clean look.  2) IF you are going to stain, stain all 4 sides and especially ends for long term durabilty.

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by horn4life

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

10 minutes ago, horn4life said:

Pick it yourself. Lumber is expensive as fuck right now, and getting ANY bad pieces will leave a bitter taste in your mouth.

I needed a ton of Cedar to trim out my facia on a new roof, and I ended up renting a flatbed for like $30 and picked the 16 footers myself at BMC in Cedar Park (NOT the mill store). I chose BMC because they are the one wholesaler I know where I CAN pick my own. I got a price about 20% less than Home Depot so maybe 23-25% less than Lowes.  They are ONLY open on weekdays and I think close at like 4 or 4:30 if memory serves.  I had to sort through a lot of wood, most importantly I got the quality of boards I wanted.  

There are several Wholesale distributors in the Austin area that will sell direct, but you need to be able to manage 16 foot lengths.  

I spent the extra on Cedar when I built an elevated bed a few years back.  I just like the way it looks, but very expensive right now for sure.  But the most rot resistant, and the most impressive if a gift for wife.

 

Good, strong, straight, and rot free wood is always a good gift for the women in your life........... just sayin'

[Jkwellborn 6898]

Pick it yourself. Lumber is expensive as fuck right now, and getting ANY bad pieces will leave a bitter taste in your mouth.
I needed a ton of Cedar to trim out my facia on a new roof, and I ended up renting a flatbed for like $30 and picked the 16 footers myself at BMC in Cedar Park (NOT the mill store). I chose BMC because they are the one wholesaler I know where I CAN pick my own. I got a price about 20% less than Home Depot so maybe 23-25% less than Lowes.  They are ONLY open on weekdays and I think close at like 4 or 4:30 if memory serves.  I had to sort through a lot of wood, most importantly I got the quality of boards I wanted.  
There are several Wholesale distributors in the Austin area that will sell direct, but you need to be able to manage 16 foot lengths.  
I spent the extra on Cedar when I built an elevated bed a few years back.  I just like the way it looks, but very expensive right now for sure.  But the most rot resistant, and the most impressive if a gift for wife.  My only other STRONG SUGGESTIONs are 1)design it so that you see no screws!!!  It takes a little more work, but has such a nice clean look.  2) IF you are going to stain, stain all 4 sides and especially ends for long term durabilty.
 

I’d use cedar for it myself. I might use pocket screws and glue if I was worried about seeing the screws.

[RexWilson 1469]

Order extra and return what you don't use since you said you have a truck on standby. I've never had an issue returning things (including lumber) to Depot or Lowes

 

[Redneck Mutha 8090]

I built two 4x8 beds using cedar a few years ago, similar to these.  They work well for the small amount of gardening that we do. 

Looks like Lowe's Round Rock has 8 foot cedar 2x6s on sale for about $10 each right now.  Time for another project?

[Godzillatron 293]

How many usb ports are you installing?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

9 hours ago, RexWilson said:

Order extra and return what you don't use since you said you have a truck on standby. I've never had an issue returning things (including lumber) to Depot or Lowes

 

I always buy extra materials, and then return what I don't use.............. or fuck up....

[Homercles 10206]

Damn I wish I’d known about that $10 cedar, my Lowe’s is the NW Austin one by default not the RR one so never saw cedar prices.  2x6 boards there are still very expensive but I could have made it work.  
 

Ive gone over my plans a dozen times, think everything is in order.  Starting way ahead of time so I can return any bad boards.  Going to build one first to ensure everything is ok before starting the other two.  Will document it here once I make some progress. 
 

Thanks y’all. 

[Homercles 10206]

Wood arrived today.  One of the 2x6 and a pair of 2x4’s were bowed, one quite a bit, but I’m getting around that by reserving those stock for short pieces that will attach to the cleats so I can screw them in.  Also one side of each of the beds will gave the house where you can’t see it, so just going to manage the boards best I can to save the best for the front-facing sides.  
 

Excited I’m going to finally get started tomorrow, spent a ton of time planning this out and want to see if I can do a good job with it. Got all the tools, fasteners set out hidden in the side yard with the saws/drills in the garage behind some stuff.  Hoping I can knock at least one tomorrow between calls so she can be (hopefully) surprised that I actually built it.  Then she can pick out a stain and I’ll get working on dirt delivery.  
 

Will post a pic if it isn’t a disaster.  

Edited January 27, 2021 by Homercles

[idigTexas 2297]

15 minutes ago, Homercles said:

Will post a pic if it isn’t a disaster.  

Tease...we love a good disaster.

[deadshank 24653]

11 hours ago, Homercles said:

Wood arrived today.  One of the 2x6 and a pair of 2x4’s were bowed, one quite a bit, but I’m getting around that by reserving those stock for short pieces that will attach to the cleats so I can screw them in.  Also one side of each of the beds will gave the house where you can’t see it, so just going to manage the boards best I can to save the best for the front-facing sides.  
 

Excited I’m going to finally get started tomorrow, spent a ton of time planning this out and want to see if I can do a good job with it. Got all the tools, fasteners set out hidden in the side yard with the saws/drills in the garage behind some stuff.  Hoping I can knock at least one tomorrow between calls so she can be (hopefully) surprised that I actually built it.  Then she can pick out a stain and I’ll get working on dirt delivery.  
 

Will post a pic if it isn’t a disaster.  

Good luck.  

[Judge Roybeanbag 11830]

14 hours ago, Homercles said:

Wood arrived today.  One of the 2x6 and a pair of 2x4’s were bowed, one quite a bit, but I’m getting around that by reserving those stock for short pieces that will attach to the cleats so I can screw them in.  Also one side of each of the beds will gave the house where you can’t see it, so just going to manage the boards best I can to save the best for the front-facing sides.  
 

Excited I’m going to finally get started tomorrow, spent a ton of time planning this out and want to see if I can do a good job with it. Got all the tools, fasteners set out hidden in the side yard with the saws/drills in the garage behind some stuff.  Hoping I can knock at least one tomorrow between calls so she can be (hopefully) surprised that I actually built it.  Then she can pick out a stain and I’ll get working on dirt delivery.  
 

Will post a pic if it isn’t a disaster.  

Measure twice 47 times, cut once.

[NeverMarryAStripper 22062]

I'd be really suspicious if my neighbor suddenly decided to build raised beds in his backyard

 

[KYHorn 17312]

Probably too late, but we made a couple of raised beds like these: 

Spoiler

 

1. A frame of 2-by-4s, clad in 1-by-12 planks, establishes the size of each bed. (In this case, the beds are 4-feet wide by 16-feet long.) Vertical 2-by-4s and cross braces provide stability at 4-foot intervals down the length of the bed.

http://web.archive.org/web/20160131061800im_/http://www.rodalesorganiclife.com/sites/rodalesorganiclife.com/files/images/channel_images/learn_and_grow/high-and-mighty-illustration-300.jpg2. In most of Finkelstein's beds, empty plastic milk crates stacked 26 inches high support the weight of the soil. In others, sturdy plastic barrels, cut to a height of 26 inches, do the lifting.

3. Atop the barrels or crates is a flat sheet of hardware cloth, a galvanized welded-wire mesh. The hardware cloth is bent upward about 2 inches at the edges and secured to the wooden sides of the beds with fence staples.

4. Heavy-duty, water-permeable landscape fabric rests on the hardware cloth to hold the soil in place. The fabric extends to the top of the frame and is stapled to the wood.

 

Main thing for you is that you could use milk crates in the beds to avoid having to get so much dirt, and this will improve drainage. 

[Homercles 10206]

I’d also read about using gallon jugs or buckets.  For 48” square internals, it was going to be something like 12x12 jugs per...which was going to cost even more than the damn dirt.  We use half gallons so it’s not like I even have any to save at home.  
 

The dirt delivered was like $300 using three super sacks, which I figured I’d use to cut down on mess...but they add something like $60 to the cost.  Delivery is $about 100.  Basically I may go without the sacks, have them dump 3 yards on the driveway and save money that way.  
 

First day was a lot of learning and frustration, but my adjusted plans seem to work so I think I’m going to try to assembly line two more tomorrow to get it over with.  
 

I like the crate idea though, would also keep the weight down pressing against the walls held together by my shitty carpentry.  Anywhere to get them cheap?

[KYHorn 17312]

40 minutes ago, Homercles said:

I’d also read about using gallon jugs or buckets.  For 48” square internals, it was going to be something like 12x12 jugs per...which was going to cost even more than the damn dirt.  We use half gallons so it’s not like I even have any to save at home.  
 

The dirt delivered was like $300 using three super sacks, which I figured I’d use to cut down on mess...but they add something like $60 to the cost.  Delivery is $about 100.  Basically I may go without the sacks, have them dump 3 yards on the driveway and save money that way.  
 

First day was a lot of learning and frustration, but my adjusted plans seem to work so I think I’m going to try to assembly line two more tomorrow to get it over with.  
 

I like the crate idea though, would also keep the weight down pressing against the walls held together by my shitty carpentry.  Anywhere to get them cheap?

I checked craigslist and facebook marketplace and found them pretty cheap (I think $3-4 per crate), but I have seen them for free from time to time.

Edited January 28, 2021 by KYHorn

[deadshank 24653]

11 hours ago, Homercles said:

First day was a lot of learning and frustration, but my adjusted plans seem to work so I think I’m going to try to assembly line two more tomorrow to get it over with.  

The four stages of do-it-yourself construction:

Stage 1 - the beginning:  “I’ve got a plan and it will be followed to a tee and all cuts, angles and lengths will be perfect.” 
 

Stage 2 - starting right after lunch: “you know, that’s pretty good, so we can leave it and adjust to that later if we need to”

Stage 3 - sometime around 4:30 and your back is killing you:  “hey, that’s not too bad, nobody will ever see it”

Stage 4 - the sun is going down and you’re starving:  “ah, fuck it.  Let’s finish this shit.”

 Note:  I’m not making fun of you.  This is my personal experience.  

Edited January 28, 2021 by deadshank

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

25 minutes ago, deadshank said:

The four stages of do-it-yourself construction:

Stage 1 - the beginning:  “I’ve got a plan and it will be followed to a tee and all cuts, angles and lengths will be perfect.” 
 

Stage 2 - starting right after lunch: “you know, that’s pretty good, so we can leave it and adjust to that later if we need to”

Stage 3 - sometime around 4:30 and your back is killing you:  “hey, that’s not too bad, nobody will ever see it”

Stage 4 - the sun is going down and you’re starving:  “ah, fuck it.  Let’s finish this shit.”

 Note:  I’m not making fun of you.  This is my personal experience.  

I see your problem. You forgot the can of Bond-o.

[Homercles 10206]

18 hours ago, deadshank said:

The four stages of do-it-yourself construction:

Stage 1 - the beginning:  “I’ve got a plan and it will be followed to a tee and all cuts, angles and lengths will be perfect.” 
 

Stage 2 - starting right after lunch: “you know, that’s pretty good, so we can leave it and adjust to that later if we need to”

Stage 3 - sometime around 4:30 and your back is killing you:  “hey, that’s not too bad, nobody will ever see it”

Stage 4 - the sun is going down and you’re starving:  “ah, fuck it.  Let’s finish this shit.”

 Note:  I’m not making fun of you.  This is my personal experience.  

Indeed my man, times two: first day I triple measured everything, consulted my plans twice every cut, used scrap wood clamped down as a guide for the circ saw on the plywood, pulled out the square before drilling pilot holes critical to alignment, googled how best to address small splits on the ends of my 2x6’s, agonized over where best to use each fastener, damn near tried to account for gravitational waves to ensure I kept the bubble on one of my drills dead centered...and it still came out looking like a sad facsimile (to me, at least) of the pro that wrote the instructions.  
 

Today, day 2, I just powered through the second and third beds in a way that’d make Henry Ford blush.  Had that miter saw bumping for an hour, plans memorized, slowed down only by foolishly losing my black hex bits in the dark dirt...and all three ended up about the same when it comes to precision.  
 

Two 8-hour days with no lunch, pissing in the bushes and covered in saw dust while being sore in places I didn’t know had muscles...but for someone that lives behind a desk, was a great experience.  Wife loves them, and that’s good enough for me.  No bad cuts either, my scrap pile was minuscule.  
 

That link I went off was pretty crappy, in respect that I had to solve a lot of little problems myself...reminds me of homers foundation repair experience ‘now parge the lath’ in that it was all ‘assemble the frame, then install the plywood backing’ with no real hints on where to put the fasteners or how to keep the cleats from splitting or how to keep things square or how to install that fucking awful 6” deck screw straight or the best way hold the frame steady while assemble it or...
 

Sadly ended up 16 deck screws short, so will secure the top trim tomorrow...hence the goofy look.  But here’s the final product:

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Homercles

[deadshank 24653]

Great job @Homercles  

You forgot to tell us how good that beer tasted when you got done and you sat in front of your masterpiece with the sun going down.  
 

The payoff was worth the effort. 

[Homercles 10206]

Heck yeah man, I think I’d have enjoyed it more if I wasn’t trying to squeeze it all into a pair of 7 hour days due to work considerations.  Proud I was able to do it as that was well outside my experience level and as noted above the plans were incredibly general, requiring me to improvise...so lots of little triumphs in there.  Friend of mine o rarely see seems serious about a few of us getting together to build them, could do it in my sleep now and it’d be a good excuse to spend a day hanging outside.  
 

Hugely appreciate the practical advice you gave in this thread!

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

Beautiful. We're going the opposite direction thisvspring -- wattle and daub. Hope our rustic English country look comes out half as well as your sturdy Texas ranchhouse look did.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

8 minutes ago, Walden Ponderer said:

Beautiful. We're going the opposite direction thisvspring -- wattle and daub. Hope our rustic English country look comes out half as well as your sturdy Texas ranchhouse look did.

Sounds interesting. what's the daub mix gonna be ?  

[deadshank 24653]

19 minutes ago, Walden Ponderer said:

Beautiful. We're going the opposite direction thisvspring -- wattle and daub. Hope our rustic English country look comes out half as well as your sturdy Texas ranchhouse look did.

 

12 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Sounds interesting. what's the daub mix gonna be ?  

The wattle and daub construction has my interest.  Looking forward to seeing this develop.  
 

What wood are you considering for the wattle?

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

12 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Sounds interesting. what's the daub mix gonna be ?  

Mostly mud. Nothing complicated. The outside will just look like woven sticks.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Walden Ponderer said:

Mostly mud. Nothing complicated. The outside will just look like woven sticks.

So these are just temporary then huh ?  Why not create a latex/conc. mix or use a Dryvit/EIFs mixture that will last a lot longer. Sounds like a lot of work for something that'll start to crumble after one rainy season.  Wattle & daub needs a roof and overhangs to protect it from direct rain exposure. 

Yeah wood choice is another factor here (Deadshank).  I don't even know where to begin on that one. If you have access to cypress branches, that would maybe be my choice. But hey, I'm not an expert on medieval building techniques. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[Homercles 10206]

On 1/24/2021 at 8:58 AM, Dbeasy said:

Subscribed. I’ve been looking at building a raised garden for a year but haven’t pulled the trigger. You are my guinea pig. 

If you ever get the inkling to build the ones I made at ~4x4, send me a PM and naturally I’ll give you all the documentation i made for it.  At this point I could build these from memory.  

[deadshank 24653]

6 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 But hey, I'm not an expert on medieval building techniques. 

Agreed.  You’re more well versed in Neanderthal cave rehabs and decorating. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

35 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Agreed.  You’re more well versed in Neanderthal cave rehabs and decorating. 

Brah... we call that experienced !!

[Homercles 10206]

Finally stained the bastards.  3.5 hours. Just need dirt now. 
 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13568]

That much dirt can get expensive. Many people layer the bottom with small logs, branches and leaves. It will all break down eventually into good soil/compost. 

[Homercles 10206]

18 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

That much dirt can get expensive. Many people layer the bottom with small logs, branches and leaves. It will all break down eventually into good soil/compost. 

Yeah someone suggested capped gallon milk jugs, but I did the math and it’s even more expensive...too bad we use cardboard half cartons here.  Also read milk crates covered in plastic.  
 

I need about 2.5 yards to fill all three.  Wish I’d thought of that when there were dead tree chunks all over my neighborhood.  

[Nice Guy Eddie 13568]

15 minutes ago, Homercles said:

Yeah someone suggested capped gallon milk jugs, but I did the math and it’s even more expensive...too bad we use cardboard half cartons here.  Also read milk crates covered in plastic.  
 

I need about 2.5 yards to fill all three.  Wish I’d thought of that when there were dead tree chunks all over my neighborhood.  

Personally I would want to put in material that will decompose over plastic. But to each their own. You could call a local tree trimmer and ask for scraps from a nearby job. You will probably have to collect it yourself from the job site.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Think about bricks and or some gravel with a landscape fabric, and then your dirt/compost material on top of that to keep the bottom open so water can drain out of the holes you hopefully left in the bottom or very low on the sides.

 

They look good by the way.

[deadshank 24653]

4 hours ago, Homercles said:

Finally stained the bastards.  3.5 hours. Just need dirt now. 
 

Either you are a little bitty feller that uses a leprechaun's chair to sit in or those planters are really big.

Nice work. Didn't even ripple the metal panels.