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Things not going well in the Netherlands

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Parliament

Parliament 14138

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They kept it together longer than we did, but it seems like the Dutch are flaking out now too.  At least they have easy access to drugs.

The situation across the Netherlands remained tense but without major unrest on Tuesday night after three nights of violence in protest against the government's implementation of tough restrictions to curb the spread of the coronavirus.   

Police took to the streets of towns and cities across the country to prevent violent rioting, while businesses closed early and shops boarded up.

On Tuesday when the 9 p.m. curfew went into effect, rowdy crowds of youths gathered in Amsterdam and Hilversum, but were broken up without incident. In Rotterdam, 33 people were detained for violating social distancing regulations and vandalism.

That was in stark contrast to Monday night, when rioting rocked cities across the country and more than 180 people were arrested for burning vehicles, stone-throwing and widespread looting.

https://www.dw.com/en/netherlands-tensions-high-after-nights-of-covid-lockdown-riots/a-56355415?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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11 minutes ago, Matuka said:

Yeah, the Euros love it when Americans tell them they owe us over WWII.

Nobody wants to have to learn German, all that verb before the subject, Yoda like shit... They owe us biiiig time....

Edited by Onboard 2.0
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Judge Roybeanbag

Judge Roybeanbag 11810

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19 minutes ago, Parliament said:

One would hope they remember the things America has done for them over the years.  Like the time we killed most of their Nazis?  Seems they owe us.

Memories are short and in their view they see us electing nazis, supporting dictators and buying and selling influence because we can and do.  It’s no wonder they’re feeling a little nationalist, it’s been the in thing for a few years.

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DonkeyCigars

DonkeyCigars 144

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48 minutes ago, Parliament said:

One would hope they remember the things America has done for them over the years.  Like the time we killed most of their Nazis?  Seems they owe us.

That was Russia, to everyone’s history books except for ours.

Edited by DonkeyCigars
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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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40 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

That was Russia, to everyone’s history books except for ours.

Somehow this Russian dude named Varlomov ended up on my Facebook timeline a few years ago. I have no idea how...Anyway, he is famous over there and a dissident. Interesting dude; I recommend a follow. He just goes by that one name. Anyway, a few years ago he came to America and went to the big WW2 museum in New Orleans and was absolutely mind-bottingly uphauled at how little credit that museum gives the Red Army. He described as having something like a single display case where it was all "Stalingrad yadda yadda blah blah blah. Meanwhile, in the West, the Americans were sweeping through Belgium, Holland, Italy, and France...."

Edited by MaybeACoordinator
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gmr548

gmr548 16513

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One would hope they remember the things America has done for them over the years.  Like the time we killed most of their Nazis?  Seems they owe us.

I always find this sentiment really interesting when it pops up because it almost exclusively comes 1.) From people who will, with a straight face, argue that black people today face no real impact from slavery or Jim Crow because it was so long ago and they weren’t alive, while of course they themselves had fuck all to do with the American war effort in WWII, and 2.) Without acknowledgment that America currently leads the west in production and acceptance of Nazis by a wide margin.
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Dahobbs

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9 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Somehow this Russian dude named Varlomov ended up on my Facebook timeline a few years ago. I have no idea how...Anyway, he is famous over there and a dissident. Interesting dude; I recommend a follow. He just goes by that one name. Anyway, a few years ago he came to America and went to the big WW2 museum in New Orleans and was absolutely mind-bottingly uphauled at how little credit that museum gives the Red Army. He described as having something like a single display case where it was all "Stalingrad yadda yadda blah blah blah. Meanwhile, in the West, the Americans were sweeping through Belgium, Holland, Italy, and France...."

To be fair, that museum is basically built from donated stuff, and I doubt the Russians are sending a bunch of stuff to New Orleans. 

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Chad Fuck

Chad Fuck 17566

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6 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Somehow this Russian dude named Varlomov ended up on my Facebook timeline a few years ago. I have no idea how...Anyway, he is famous over there and a dissident. Interesting dude; I recommend a follow. He just goes by that one name. Anyway, a few years ago he came to America and went to the big WW2 museum in New Orleans and was absolutely mind-bottingly uphauled at how little credit that museum gives the Red Army. He described as having something like a single display case where it was all "Stalingrad yadda yadda blah blah blah. Meanwhile, in the West, the Americans were sweeping through Belgium, Holland, Italy, and France...."

People the world over are self-interested.  You won't see a lot about Russia at the Imperial War Museum either.  I wonder what Russian museums say about Western participation, but I haven't had the chance to see them yet.  

To some degree, that's Russia's own fault.  When many of the foundational WWII histories were being written that form the basis for the Western view of the war,  access to Russian primary sources were pretty limited because that's how the Soviets wanted it.  There was a little opening in early 90s that lead to a bit of new and enlightening scholarship before Putin closed the archives again because along with the good "we won the Great Patriotic War!" stuff, there was plenty of bad in those records too...

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Chad Fuck

Chad Fuck 17566

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1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

To be fair, that museum is basically built from donated stuff, and I doubt the Russians are sending a bunch of stuff to New Orleans. 

Also, it started off as the D-Day Museum and then expanded it's scope.  It looks like it too.  It's basically a D-Day Museum that is wrapped in "oh yeah, all this other stuff happened too."  Add on top that it is a private museum, with it's own self-ascribed mandate to tell the American story of the war.  It's not like it's a government sponsored museum to tell the full story of everyone who participated in the war.  

Lots of people - natives and foreigners alike - think "National = government sponsored."  That's just not true.

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17447

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1 minute ago, Chad Fuck said:

Also, it started off as the D-Day Museum and then expanded it's scope.  It looks like it too.  It's basically a D-Day Museum that is wrapped in "oh yeah, all this other stuff happened too."  Add on top that it is a private museum, with it's own self-ascribed mandate to tell the American story of the war.  It's not like it's a government sponsored museum to tell the full story of everyone who participated in the war.  

Lots of people - natives and foreigners alike - think "National = government sponsored."  That's just not true.

Yeah, that's right. The whole started as show case for Louisiana's contribution to the war: the Higgins boat. Although, Congress did designate it America's National WWII Museum and allocated money to it, so sort of is a government sponsored museum.  

https://www.congress.gov/bill/108th-congress/house-bill/2109/text

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah, that's right. The whole started as show case for Louisiana's contribution to the war: the Higgins boat. Although, Congress did designate it America's National WWII Museum and allocated money to it, so sort of is a government sponsored museum.  

https://www.congress.gov/bill/108th-congress/house-bill/2109/text

Higgins Boats and Coonass Code Talkers lol 

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4th&Five

4th&Five 41461

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1 hour ago, Parliament said:

One would hope they remember the things America has done for them over the years.  Like the time we killed most of their Nazis?  Seems they owe us.

I bet you have one of those Back to Back World War Champs shirts, don’t you?

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Chad Fuck

Chad Fuck 17566

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6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah, that's right. The whole started as show case for Louisiana's contribution to the war: the Higgins boat. Although, Congress did designate it America's National WWII Museum and allocated money to it, so sort of is a government sponsored museum.  

https://www.congress.gov/bill/108th-congress/house-bill/2109/text

Fair re limited government funding.  But we know who is really paying for that shit because the corporate sponsor's names are all over it.  

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Anastasis

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2 hours ago, Xian said:

Nationalism in regards to the vaccine is starting to rear its ugly head in europe. People are pissed pfizer is exporting vaccines to North America  and the Middle East made in their European facilities all while “temporarily” reducing the number sent to EU countries. 

Germany has every right to be fucking pissed if they are not being supplied. 

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TexasEd

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7 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Somehow this Russian dude named Varlomov ended up on my Facebook timeline a few years ago. I have no idea how...Anyway, he is famous over there and a dissident. Interesting dude; I recommend a follow. He just goes by that one name. Anyway, a few years ago he came to America and went to the big WW2 museum in New Orleans and was absolutely mind-bottingly uphauled at how little credit that museum gives the Red Army. He described as having something like a single display case where it was all "Stalingrad yadda yadda blah blah blah. Meanwhile, in the West, the Americans were sweeping through Belgium, Holland, Italy, and France...."

lol, if it had been in College Station it would have said aggy singlehandedly won the war behind Patton, with the damned band blaring in your ear the whole time.

I went to Soviet Union as a teen and saw several of the museums and monuments around Leningrad/St. Petersburg. 

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Shady Ray

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19 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Germany has every right to be fucking pissed if they are not being supplied. 

And man, they are fucking livid. Front page of the Bild tabloid in Germany today was a full spread about how much of the vaccine was leaving Germany. 

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South Austin

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21 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Somehow this Russian dude named Varlomov ended up on my Facebook timeline a few years ago. I have no idea how...Anyway, he is famous over there and a dissident. Interesting dude; I recommend a follow. He just goes by that one name. Anyway, a few years ago he came to America and went to the big WW2 museum in New Orleans and was absolutely mind-bottingly uphauled at how little credit that museum gives the Red Army. He described as having something like a single display case where it was all "Stalingrad yadda yadda blah blah blah. Meanwhile, in the West, the Americans were sweeping through Belgium, Holland, Italy, and France...."

And borscht is way better than gumbo.

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Hookah Horns

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23 hours ago, Xian said:

Nationalism in regards to the vaccine is starting to rear its ugly head in europe. People are pissed pfizer is exporting vaccines to North America  and the Middle East made in their European facilities all while “temporarily” reducing the number sent to EU countries. 

This doesn't quite jibe with what I'm reading. Everything I'm seeing about EU vax supply has to do with production problems rather than EU plants prioritizing exports abroad. The EU is banging on the table about limiting exports, though. 

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Nivek

Nivek 16859

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23 hours ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Yep, we were the side-show in the European theater.

Soviets won Europe, U.S. won the Pacific.

Side show?  We helped keep the split of the German forces, kicked them out of Africa, Italy.  Soviets beat the Germans in the summer of 1943 and scored major victories, meanwhile the Brits/Americans kicked the Germans out of North Africa and then took Italy out also in July of 1943.    The Soviet success was due to the allied success (including supplies) and not in spite of it.   Germany's best tank commander was in Africa.   Soviets were invaded and were able to mobilize their population for their counter-offensive.  The Western allies had to travel far and wide to get to the front to kick the shit out of the Germans and maintain supply lines.   The western allies had to free territory to use as a base for operations.   The Soviets had an easier path.   Just as in WW1, the Allies would have won with or without the Soviets/Russians.  The Soviets would have lost without the Western Allies.

 

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TexasEd

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57 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Side show?  We helped keep the split of the German forces, kicked them out of Africa, Italy.  Soviets beat the Germans in the summer of 1943 and scored major victories, meanwhile the Brits/Americans kicked the Germans out of North Africa and then took Italy out also in July of 1943.    The Soviet success was due to the allied success (including supplies) and not in spite of it.   Germany's best tank commander was in Africa.   Soviets were invaded and were able to mobilize their population for their counter-offensive.  The Western allies had to travel far and wide to get to the front to kick the shit out of the Germans and maintain supply lines.   The western allies had to free territory to use as a base for operations.   The Soviets had an easier path.   Just as in WW1, the Allies would have won with or without the Soviets/Russians.  The Soviets would have lost without the Western Allies.

 

This.  Even the Soviet era museums I went to showed that they were on the brink of defeat with the siege of their cities going horribly.  They call the people who died of cold and starvation martyrs for holding the line and forcing the Germans to suffer through the winter.

Soviets won due to 1) Geography - It was too far for the Blitz to make it into the cities before 2) Winter hit and shut everything down so that 3) German supply lines were not able to link up and the siege lasted years and resulted in 4) huge numbers of deaths both sides but the Germans were soldiers and the Soviets were mostly civilians.  In the spring or 1944 the Soviets were able to push back faster. D-Day was an amphibious landing that took more planning than the land offensive the Soviets had.  

The Soviets may have gotten to Berlin faster but they had the less technical effort of the two fronts.  Their geography and population were what won the Eastern Front vs the Western front's Tactics and technology.  The geography for Britain obviously helped in a defensive way but was an equal obstacle for offense. 

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Macanudo

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13 minutes ago, TexasEd said:

This.  Even the Soviet era museums I went to showed that they were on the brink of defeat with the siege of their cities going horribly.  They call the people who died of cold and starvation martyrs for holding the line and forcing the Germans to suffer through the winter.

Soviets won due to 1) Geography - It was too far for the Blitz to make it into the cities before 2) Winter hit and shut everything down so that 3) German supply lines were not able to link up and the siege lasted years and resulted in 4) huge numbers of deaths both sides but the Germans were soldiers and the Soviets were mostly civilians.  In the spring or 1944 the Soviets were able to push back faster. D-Day was an amphibious landing that took more planning than the land offensive the Soviets had.  

The Soviets may have gotten to Berlin faster but they had the less technical effort of the two fronts.  Their geography and population were what won the Eastern Front vs the Western front's Tactics and technology.  The geography for Britain obviously helped in a defensive way but was an equal obstacle for offense. 

We would have been in Berlin faster if Monty hadn't dragged his feet.    He was the McClellan of WWII.   Never enough supplies or troops and the enemy always had more troops than he did.

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TexasEd

TexasEd 8064

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27 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Heard on the news a few days ago that the rioters burned testing stations because they were pissed about lock downs.

 

Fucking testing stations.

 

You don't have so many cases if you don't test. 

 

You know, like your girlfriend isn't pregnant if she doesn't pee on a stick.

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Nivek

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22 minutes ago, TexasEd said:

This.  Even the Soviet era museums I went to showed that they were on the brink of defeat with the siege of their cities going horribly.  They call the people who died of cold and starvation martyrs for holding the line and forcing the Germans to suffer through the winter.

Soviets won due to 1) Geography - It was too far for the Blitz to make it into the cities before 2) Winter hit and shut everything down so that 3) German supply lines were not able to link up and the siege lasted years and resulted in 4) huge numbers of deaths both sides but the Germans were soldiers and the Soviets were mostly civilians.  In the spring or 1944 the Soviets were able to push back faster. D-Day was an amphibious landing that took more planning than the land offensive the Soviets had.  

The Soviets may have gotten to Berlin faster but they had the less technical effort of the two fronts.  Their geography and population were what won the Eastern Front vs the Western front's Tactics and technology.  The geography for Britain obviously helped in a defensive way but was an equal obstacle for offense. 

It also helped that the German military was reliant upon horses for their supply lines and to move troops, they had ~30,000 Mercedes trucks.   Canada had 10x that number and produced more than 20x for the Commonwealth nations.  

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DigglerontheHoof

DigglerontheHoof 21063

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2 hours ago, Nivek said:

Side show?  We helped keep the split of the German forces, kicked them out of Africa, Italy.  Soviets beat the Germans in the summer of 1943 and scored major victories, meanwhile the Brits/Americans kicked the Germans out of North Africa and then took Italy out also in July of 1943.    The Soviet success was due to the allied success (including supplies) and not in spite of it.   Germany's best tank commander was in Africa.   Soviets were invaded and were able to mobilize their population for their counter-offensive.  The Western allies had to travel far and wide to get to the front to kick the shit out of the Germans and maintain supply lines.   The western allies had to free territory to use as a base for operations.   The Soviets had an easier path.   Just as in WW1, the Allies would have won with or without the Soviets/Russians.  The Soviets would have lost without the Western Allies.

 

Of course, I over-simplified it and am guilty of hyperbole.  Obviously, the war couldn't have been won without America's unparalleled industrial and logistical might/expertise.  I was mostly referring to the amount of sacrifice, scale of and number of battles, number of soldiers and the viciousness and brutality of the front. 

 

 

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Nivek

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21 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Of course, I over-simplified it and am guilty of hyperbole.  Obviously, the war couldn't have been won without America's unparalleled industrial and logistical might/expertise.  I was mostly referring to the amount of sacrifice, scale of and number of battles, number of soldiers and the viciousness and brutality of the front. 

 

 

To me it seems that the Allies in the West also suffered, and were brutalized even more so than the Soviets.  The Soviets were on the brink of loss.  The French lost.  Norway lost.  Greece lost.  Netherlands lost. Etc.   The Soviets were facing an invading force and either capitulated or fought.  The Americans, Brits, Canadians were not being invaded but joined anyway.

The Soviets wanted to help Germany fuck over Europe.  They were not some savior, they were just betrayed.  They joined forces with the Nazis to fuck over Poland, Stalin admitted as much and recently Putin declared WW2 was all really Poland's fault.   I guess their mass murder of 20,000 Polish military was part of the Soviet protection against German gas chambers.   

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DigglerontheHoof

DigglerontheHoof 21063

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14 minutes ago, Nivek said:

 

To me it seems that the Allies in the West also suffered, and were brutalized even more so than the Soviets.  The Soviets were on the brink of loss.  The French lost.  Norway lost.  Greece lost.  Netherlands lost. Etc.   The Soviets were facing an invading force and either capitulated or fought.  The Americans, Brits, Canadians were not being invaded but joined anyway.

The Soviets wanted to help Germany fuck over Europe.  They were not some savior, they were just betrayed.  They joined forces with the Nazis to fuck over Poland, Stalin admitted as much and recently Putin declared WW2 was all really Poland's fault.   I guess their mass murder of 20,000 Polish military was part of the Soviet protection against German gas chambers.   

No doubt.  Americans love to say that France would be speaking German if it wasn’t for us.  Probably more accurate to say they’d be speaking Russian.

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TexasEd

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Of course, I over-simplified it and am guilty of hyperbole.  Obviously, the war couldn't have been won without America's unparalleled industrial and logistical might/expertise.  I was mostly referring to the amount of sacrifice, scale of and number of battles, number of soldiers and the viciousness and brutality of the front. 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

No doubt.  Americans love to say that France would be speaking German if it wasn’t for us.  Probably more accurate to say they’d be speaking Russian.

 

Doubling down on this position does not make you more right.  

The Soviets survived WWII through geographical, weather and population advantages until 1944 when the Western front brought the heat and allowed the Russians to break out.  They would have probably lost without the western front.

 

Edit:  I agree on your sacrifice comment.  Without looking it up I believe they lost way more lives due to all the civilian deaths and probably more military as well, but people dying does not win wars. :)

Edited by TexasEd
WWII talk not going away
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Dahobbs

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5 minutes ago, TexasEd said:

 

 

 

Doubling down on this position does not make you more right.  

The Soviets survived WWII through geographical, weather and population advantages until 1944 when the Western front brought the heat and allowed the Russians to break out.  They would have probably lost without the western front.

That goes both ways. The Allies would have had no chance on D-Day had the Germans not had most of their men and equipment pre-occupied on the eastern front.

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TXSG8R

TXSG8R 3360

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On 1/27/2021 at 9:30 AM, Anastasis said:

Germany has every right to be fucking pissed if they are not being supplied. 

My 90 year old grandmother in Germany had her appointment dropped because of vaccine shortage (rescheduled for the 1st).  It is super shitty. 

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gmr548

gmr548 16513

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Neither the USSR nor the Western Allies would’ve won the war without the other so it’s a stupid debate. Hell, without some of their blunders, Germany may have won anyway, or at least fought it to a standstill. It took everyone.

Let that be a lesson. The trumpkin fascist is a decided minority in this country but if the rest of us can’t keep the coalition together we’re done.

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