The US and Korea

[wildcat09 29,354]

1 minute ago, Jhawk said:

Please inform us of everyone on the team since you have that information.  I'm guessing you knew about the meeting in march as well as this most recent trip by pompeo to pick up the US citizens.  Please.. elaborate on the roster trump has put together.... oh wait... you can't.

Rick Perry is in charge of the DOE. The State Department has been gutted. Trump is dismissive of experts, and famous for refusing to prepare for things. He thinks he just needs to get in the room with Kim and hash some shit out on the back of a napkin. All he ever does is wing it. I feel very confident that he's not consulting with experts who could advise on what an effective inspections regime would look like.

But go ahead and keep thinking that he's secretly a genius. 

[David Dennison 18,860]

10 minutes ago, Amobie said:

It is pretty alarming how many people are rooting for an outcome that is a net negative for the US simply because they don't like the President.  We don't have any details let alone the acknowledgement of an agreement yet some people have already decided that it's a bad deal...  For something that hasn't even happened yet.

 

Sounds familiar.

[Anastasis 23,469]

6 minutes ago, Amobie said:

It is pretty alarming how many people are rooting for an outcome that is a net negative for the US simply because they don't like the President.  We don't have any details let alone the acknowledgement of an agreement yet some people have already decided that it's a bad deal...  For something that hasn't even happened yet.

 

[Caracara 41]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Rick Perry is in charge of the DOE. The State Department has been gutted. Trump is dismissive of experts, and famous for refusing to prepare for things. He thinks he just needs to get in the room with Kim and hash some shit out on the back of a napkin. All he ever does is wing it. I feel very confident that he's not consulting with experts who could advise on what an effective inspections regime would look like.

But go ahead and keep thinking that he's secretly a genius. 

He's the figurehead for our military and its intel, so some thought has gone into this, believe it or not.

[Amobie 58]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Rick Perry is in charge of the DOE. The State Department has been gutted. Trump is dismissive of experts, and famous for refusing to prepare for things. He thinks he just needs to get in the room with Kim and hash some shit out on the back of a napkin. All he ever does is wing it. I feel very confident that he's not consulting with experts who could advise on what an effective inspections regime would look like.

But go ahead and keep thinking that he's secretly a genius. 

The nukes are not the problem, it's the relationship we have with NK is what causes the nukes to be a problem.  The fighting of the Korean war ended in 1953.  Why are we enemies again? 

[David Dennison 18,860]

Just now, Amobie said:

The nukes are not the problem, it's the relationship we have with NK is what causes the nukes to be a problem.  The fighting of the Korean war ended in 1953.  Why are we enemies again? 

The same reason we're enemies with Russia and China.

[Amobie 58]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Sounds familiar.

My wording was intentional.  I've seen it happen my entire adult life.

[Caracara 41]

Just now, Amobie said:

The nukes are not the problem, it's the relationship we have with NK is what causes the nukes to be a problem.  The fighting of the Korean war ended in 1953.  Why are we enemies again? 

skip wildcat and take that question straight to stephen colbert

[Lagunamadre 1,975]

24 minutes ago, Amobie said:

It is pretty alarming how many people are rooting for an outcome that is a net negative for the US simply because they don't like the President.  We don't have any details let alone the acknowledgement of an agreement yet some people have already decided that it's a bad deal...  For something that hasn't even happened yet.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Lagunamadre

[Lagunamadre 1,975]

24 minutes ago, Amobie said:

It is pretty alarming how many people are rooting for an outcome that is a net negative for the US simply because they don't like the President.  We don't have any details let alone the acknowledgement of an agreement yet some people have already decided that it's a bad deal...  For something that hasn't even happened yet.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Lagunamadre

[Lagunamadre 1,975]

22 minutes ago, Amobie said:

It is pretty alarming how many people are rooting for an outcome that is a net negative for the US simply because they don't like the President.  We don't have any details let alone the acknowledgement of an agreement yet some people have already decided that it's a bad deal...  For something that hasn't even happened yet.

 

Just because I think the Warriors are going to beat the Rockets doesn't mean I'm rooting for them. I've just seen this movie before and have a good feeling how it ends. 

[wildcat09 29,354]

7 minutes ago, Amobie said:

The nukes are not the problem, it's the relationship we have with NK is what causes the nukes to be a problem.  The fighting of the Korean war ended in 1953.  Why are we enemies again? 

I cannot even begin to imagine the shitfit you guys would throw if this had come out of Obama's mouth.

We're enemies with North Korea because they're a brutally oppressive regime. I, and most on the left, would prefer for our foreign policy to recognize the reality that they have nukes and accept that, because the alternative is a horribly costly war, but we should not be friends with them.  That has been our stance for a long time, while the right has continually advocated for war to disarm them and force a regime change. Now you assholes are just going to steal our position while pretending y'all were right all along that a deal that recognizes NK's right to have nukes is good? GTFO with that nonsense. I bet next you're going to tell us that the right was correct all along that invading Iraq in 2003 would be an enormous mistake.

[Amobie 58]

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I cannot even begin to imagine the shitfit you guys would throw if this had come out of Obama's mouth.

We're enemies with North Korea because they're a brutally oppressive regime. I, and most on the left, would prefer for our foreign policy to recognize the reality that they have nukes and accept that, because the alternative is a horribly costly war, but we should not be friends with them.  That has been our stance for a long time, while the right has continually advocated for war to disarm them and force a regime change. Now you assholes are just going to steal our position while pretending y'all were right all along that a deal that recognizes NK's right to have nukes is good? GTFO with that nonsense. I bet next you're going to tell us that the right was correct all along that invading Iraq in 2003 would be an enormous mistake.

We are having a discussion and I am not being partisan.  I'm challenging the assumption that there are only 2 possible outcomes and the stupidity of there not being a scenario where both sides can come away with a win.  Let's see what kind of agreement is reached and go from there because at this point, we don't know what kind of agreement is going to be reached.

In my opinion...

North Korea became what it did because of all the external forces around it.  They bunkered themselves in and became a nation under seige thanks to the cold war.  Being at war is part of their national identity at this point and it's because they are fearful we are going to attack them.  Do we really want to attack them?  Why?  Do they really want to attack us?  Why?  It doesn't seem like we have a reason to fight them and they really don't have a reason to attack us.  I mean fuck, it's been 65 years and we haven't invaded.  Why would we do it now?  If the internet makes it's way into the North, it's game over for the regime.  We can wait them out if their leadership is that stupid.

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

[berlinerbaer 678]

 

11 hours ago, Caracara said:

Anybody besides me think the NK royal family will eventually be deposed or made strictly ornamental, and NK will go in a new direction closer to SK?

 

Amobie, I'm with you.

Only if we are off the peninsula entirely and it's China with all the regional influence. In that case then yes, I agree with you.

8 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Rick Perry is in charge of the DOE. The State Department has been gutted. Trump is dismissive of experts, and famous for refusing to prepare for things. He thinks he just needs to get in the room with Kim and hash some shit out on the back of a napkin. All he ever does is wing it. I feel very confident that he's not consulting with experts who could advise on what an effective inspections regime would look like.

But go ahead and keep thinking that he's secretly a genius. 

Strange, isn't it? It doesn't make logical sense, especially with Trump pulling us out of the Iran deal, which should be a huge red flag to anyone trying to negotiate with the US. The fact that the chips are all falling into place with North Korea despite all of this is more than a little suspicious.

My line of thinking is that this all will go over amazingly well, despite the blatantly obvious shortcomings of this administration. We will have to make a MAJOR concession, like leaving Korea completely, but the Norks will similarly make their own apparently huge concessions, like giving up their nukes with UN inspections or basically the Iran deal but with Trump involved so of course it'll be awesome.

With us off the peninsula, the threat to Kim's regime is greatly reduced, if not completely eliminated. It also provides China with a key long-term goal. NK won't need the nukes anymore, with their big brother taking over the region.

China is playing the long game here, knowing how badly Trump wants a "win" and doing their part to influence American public opinion to bump up Trump's approval. Short term, this will give them brownie points in trade negotiations. Long term, they know he's is the most effective way to cripple their rival.

Don't get me wrong. I'll be happy to see the Korean peninsula denuclearized (big if whether Kim keeps his word...) and a part of me wants our military out of SK as well. I'm just apprehensive about China's regional dominance in Asia, our government  turning a blind eye to Chinese manipulation here at home, and of course fretting a boost to Trump's approval rating, prolonging and accelerating the damage he does to this country.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

11 hours ago, Jhawk said:

I would say that both parties have flipped on that.  As I just showed, dems loved it when obama was talking about talking to our enemies.  Repubs decried it.  Now repubs love it and dems hate it.  Don't start with the "he did it first."  That is exactly what our politicians do.  Hold them, and yourself accountable.

It is very important to note that we've got shit moving in a generally good direction.  Anyone who denies that is blind.  And the fact of the matter is that we are in a better position today than we were yesterday with NK.  It has been that way since march.  It appears that right now Kim is giving us concessions just for the chance to talk about how to be a world player.  That is good.  Does that mean a deal is done or we are going to get everything we want?  Fuck no.  Are we going to have to give something up?  Most likely.  But if someone thinks that the US giving even an inch is a total failure then they are wasting everyone's time with that argument.  They will never see a successful NK policy because their only perception of success is we get everything, give nothing, end up with complete control over china.  That is what the majority of posters here think at this time.  Not "things are going well" or "this looks like it could potentially have a 2% chance of going well."  It is "trump has been/is being played," "china is getting everything they want from trump," "You get welcomed into the community of nations, you get to keep your nukes, we'll reward you with trade, and we'll leave the peninsula."

Doesn't seem to me that people want to see it play out.  Seems to me that people are hoping we fail in this venture like our beloved presidents before.

Ok, let me ask you this then. You are a relatively young man. Maybe 30ish?  Do you truly believe that you'll outlive the NK regime?

I know you don't. Fucking KJUs kid who isnt even born yet will rule and you both expect and know that. KJU wants to be the equivalent of the Saudi ruler. Forever supported by you. Trump is gonna let KJU be free to be the Saudi sheikh he wants to be and you're gonna suck his dick for it. Your real problem, and Trump's, is that you believed all this fake brinksmanship nonsense that led to this.  NK is never going to do shit, nuclear or conventional, but we are about to legitimize the regime forever  

[ousuxndallas 65]

It is pretty alarming how many people are rooting for an outcome that is a net negative for the US simply because they don't like the President.  We don't have any details let alone the acknowledgement of an agreement yet some people have already decided that it's a bad deal...  For something that hasn't even happened yet.
 

It's called "Trump Derangement Syndrome". Moose out front shoulda told ya.

[ousuxndallas 65]

Hostages are free. #WINNING

[SquishMitten 10,408]

I would say that both parties have flipped on that.  As I just showed, dems loved it when obama was talking about talking to our enemies.  Repubs decried it.  Now repubs love it and dems hate it.  Don't start with the "he did it first."  That is exactly what our politicians do.  Hold them, and yourself accountable.

You’re just wrong on that, and you’re doing exactly what you’re telling him not to. With the exception of a significant minority, dems aren’t flat out against the idea of meeting with NK. Nearly everyone here, on both sides, (not that we are representative of our elected officials) is in favor of resolving the NK problem, and most acknowledge that meeting with them is an important step. The concern is the lack of planning, prep, and expert opinion. It’s undeniable fact that Trump has very few advisors on this, and based on past behavior, I think we can safely assume he isn’t paying much attention to whichever advisors he actually has. Your comment is one of the worst “both sides” ever posted.

It is pretty alarming how many people are rooting for an outcome that is a net negative for the US simply because they don't like the President.  We don't have any details let alone the acknowledgement of an agreement yet some people have already decided that it's a bad deal...  For something that hasn't even happened yet.

And this? What? Literally nobody of any relevance in this country is doing that. I don’t think I’ve even seen one of our resident crazy lefties root for that.

[wildcat09 29,354]

11 hours ago, berlinerbaer said:

 

Only if we are off the peninsula entirely and it's China with all the regional influence. In that case then yes, I agree with you.

Strange, isn't it? It doesn't make logical sense, especially with Trump pulling us out of the Iran deal, which should be a huge red flag to anyone trying to negotiate with the US. The fact that the chips are all falling into place with North Korea despite all of this is more than a little suspicious.

My line of thinking is that this all will go over amazingly well, despite the blatantly obvious shortcomings of this administration. We will have to make a MAJOR concession, like leaving Korea completely, but the Norks will similarly make their own apparently huge concessions, like giving up their nukes with UN inspections or basically the Iran deal but with Trump involved so of course it'll be awesome.

With us off the peninsula, the threat to Kim's regime is greatly reduced, if not completely eliminated. It also provides China with a key long-term goal. NK won't need the nukes anymore, with their big brother taking over the region.

China is playing the long game here, knowing how badly Trump wants a "win" and doing their part to influence American public opinion to bump up Trump's approval. Short term, this will give them brownie points in trade negotiations. Long term, they know he's is the most effective way to cripple their rival.

Don't get me wrong. I'll be happy to see the Korean peninsula denuclearized (big if whether Kim keeps his word...) and a part of me wants our military out of SK as well. I'm just apprehensive about China's regional dominance in Asia, our government  turning a blind eye to Chinese manipulation here at home, and of course fretting a boost to Trump's approval rating, prolonging and accelerating the damage he does to this country.

It's baffling watching everyone who bitched about Obama's "apology tour" and his "leading from behind" actively cheer as Trump leads us on a full-scale retreat from every corner of the globe.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

Other than the Summit, I wonder what we agreed to give up for those hostages.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s great we got them home safe but I feel like we’re not getting the whole story here. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,781]

On May 9, 2018 at 10:52 AM, Falling Down said:

He created the opportunity you fucking dolt.

Did he create the opportunity by promising fire and fury and then not doing jack shit like the big fucking pussy that he is? Oooh...Un is shaking. 

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

24 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Hey three out of four prisoners is a pretty good batting average.   So what if one was tortured to brain death.  Kim is an honorable guy who takes great care of his prisoners. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,781]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Those excellent years spent in the labor camps. 

[Brisketexan 105,139]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Those excellent years spent in the labor camps. 

"Excellent" is a relative term.

They could have spent that time at a Trump property. 

So, the labor camps are lookin' pretty good.

[Brisketexan 105,139]

7 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

 

You’re just wrong on that, and you’re doing exactly what you’re telling him not to. With the exception of a significant minority, dems aren’t flat out against the idea of meeting with NK. Nearly everyone here, on both sides, (not that we are representative of our elected officials) is in favor of resolving the NK problem, and most acknowledge that meeting with them is an important step. The concern is the lack of planning, prep, and expert opinion. It’s undeniable fact that Trump has very few advisors on this, and based on past behavior, I think we can safely assume he isn’t paying much attention to whichever advisors he actually has. Your comment is one of the worst “both sides” ever posted.



And this? What? Literally nobody of any relevance in this country is doing that. I don’t think I’ve even seen one of our resident crazy lefties root for that.

 

These.  Straw man bullshittery abounds.

I don't oppose the president of the US meeting with the leader of the DPRK...IF we have a well-crafted agenda, a set game plan (actually, multiple set game plans, depending on what opportunities present themselves), and we utilize known information and intel, both current and historical.  

Do you honestly think that Trump has any of those?

Look, if Trump stumblefucks his way into a formal cessation of hostilities between North and South and the DPRK actually destroys its nuclear stockpile, I will be very very happy with that outcome.  I think almost any person would be.  I'm certainly not rooting against it.  But if you made me go to Vegas and bet everything I own on that result....I'm betting AGAINST.

[David Dennison 18,860]

I've never seen an administration burn through political capital so quickly. 

Using the hostages to argue that Mueller needs to "wrap up" his investigation is really, really super smart. 

[DixonHur 11,304]

So North Korea agrees to "dismantle" the nuclear test site that was recently destroyed in a test and the orange one thinks he scored a victory. 

Quote

North Korea’s main nuclear test site has partially collapsed under the stress of multiple explosions, possibly rendering it unsafe for further testing and leaving it vulnerable to radiation leaks, a study by Chinese geologists has shown.  - April 26th

 

Quote

The damage to the nuclear test site that North Korean leader Kim Jong Un has promised to shut down is more extensive than earlier assessments showed, according to a new study by a team of international scientists.  - May 10th

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,781]

2 hours ago, DixonHur said:

So North Korea agrees to "dismantle" the nuclear test site that was recently destroyed in a test and the orange one thinks he scored a victory. 

 

 

He doesn't think that. He just says it. He knows he's full of shit. His fans don't. 

[Dolemite 143]

Don't know what Trumps did but he sure lit a fire under NK.

[DixonHur 11,304]

3 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

He doesn't think that. He just says it. He knows he's full of shit. His fans don't. 

I wish the stock market were this predictable.

10 minutes ago, Dolemite said:

Don't know what Trumps did but he sure lit a fire under NK.

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by DixonHur

[RayDog 682]

25 minutes ago, Dolemite said:

Don't know what Trumps did but he sure lit a fire under NK.

It was nothing he did. NK changed strategy after they accidentally destroyed their nuclear test site.

[DixonHur 11,304]

37 minutes ago, RayDog said:

It was nothing he did. NK changed strategy after they accidentally destroyed their nuclear test site.

And successfully launched a nuclear capable ICBM

[WhatTheBuck 28,781]

4 hours ago, DixonHur said:

And successfully launched a nuclear capable ICBM

After Trump threatened that there'd be fire and fury like the world has never seen before if he did. 

[ChiTownDoc 21,154]

On 5/10/2018 at 3:25 PM, Brisketexan said:

These.  Straw man bullshittery abounds.

I don't oppose the president of the US meeting with the leader of the DPRK...IF we have a well-crafted agenda, a set game plan (actually, multiple set game plans, depending on what opportunities present themselves), and we utilize known information and intel, both current and historical.  

Do you honestly think that Trump has any of those?

Look, if Trump stumblefucks his way into a formal cessation of hostilities between North and South and the DPRK actually destroys its nuclear stockpile, I will be very very happy with that outcome.  I think almost any person would be.  I'm certainly not rooting against it.  But if you made me go to Vegas and bet everything I own on that result....I'm betting AGAINST.

The Trumpkins are thirsty for a win you sly bastard, can’t let them have just one?

 

Well, two.  GORSUCH

[Dolemite 143]

9 hours ago, RayDog said:

It was nothing he did. NK changed strategy after they accidentally destroyed their nuclear test site.

They have other sites if they wanted to develop them. And to say Trump had nothing to do with this is ridiculous. Especially coming from someone with your abilities. 

[DixonHur 11,304]

1 minute ago, Dolemite said:

They have other sites if they wanted to develop them. And to say Trump had nothing to do with this is ridiculous. Especially coming from someone with your abilities. 

Then why aren't they dismantling them?  You don't find it convenient that the one site they're "dismantling" just happens to be the one that's already been destroyed?

Not to mention they already have working nukes and ICBMs.

If Trump negotiates the verifiable destruction of all NK nuclear warheads, material, and weapons development, then I'll be the first to say he deserves the Nobel Peace prize.  Until then, nothing has changed other than the promise to destroy what's already been destroyed.

It's like if after my house fell off a cliff I promised not to live in it again.

[Dolemite 143]

[Dolemite 143]

20 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Then why aren't they dismantling them?  You don't find it convenient that the one site they're "dismantling" just happens to be the one that's already been destroyed?

Not to mention they already have working nukes and ICBMs.

If Trump negotiates the verifiable destruction of all NK nuclear warheads, material, and weapons development, then I'll be the first to say he deserves the Nobel Peace prize.  Until then, nothing has changed other than the promise to destroy what's already been destroyed.

It's like if after my house fell off a cliff I promised not to live in it again.

Don't get your point. NK has been heathens for 60 years now since they broke their toys they want to give everything up?

Trump's objective is to break the ties between NK and Iran. NK was the weak link because its people are starving and the country is broken. Now with NK and Iran separated with NK no longer cooperating with Iran and their nuclear ambitions then Iran will give it up too. 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Dolemite

[Nivek 16,930]

9 minutes ago, Dolemite said:

Don't get your point. NK has been heathens for 60 years now since they broke their toys they want to give everything up?

Trump's objective is to break the ties between NK and Iran. NK was the weak link because its people are starving and the country is broken. Now with NK and Iran separated with NK no longer cooperating with Iran and their nuclear ambitions then Iran will give it up too. 

I have a toll bridge I need to sell.   You seem like the right kind of guy for this investment.  

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

Trump fan fiction is hilarious. 

[Anastasis 23,469]

15 hours ago, DixonHur said:

And successfully launched a nuclear capable ICBM

Four of their last five launches have failed various stages of the launch. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4,976]

Was their nuclear test site actually destroyed from the cave in? I've heard conflicting stories from the news and such. Supposedly US Intel says it's still operational, but lazy Google fu doesn't pull anything up as everything now is about this latest promise.

[Dolemite 143]

11 hours ago, Nivek said:

I have a toll bridge I need to sell.   You seem like the right kind of guy for this investment.  

The reason Trump wanted to break the ties between NK and Iran is NK was providing nuke and missile technology to Iran because they needed the money.

NK's reconciliation opens the door for that money to be replaced by aid and investment from the US. Now, NK has the best of both worlds. The regime gets to stay in power and they get a lot of money.

No coincidence that the US pulled out of the so-called Iran Deal while NK was caving. 

Now Iran is left hanging out to dry and are no doubt flustered about the whole deal. 

Hopefully, they are pissed enough to actual the release the names of the people they bribed to get the deal done with Obama. I doubt if they will though. 

 

 

 

[Jhawk 1,075]

If they release names it will be epic. I can’t imagine what that would mean for our allies that might be named. It would be insane if there are American politicians on that list. 

[RayDog 682]

4 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Was their nuclear test site actually destroyed from the cave in? I've heard conflicting stories from the news and such. Supposedly US Intel says it's still operational, but lazy Google fu doesn't pull anything up as everything now is about this latest promise.

NK said that two tunnels had not collapsed. But there is no way to know how much equipment survived the collapse and those tunnels could be highly contaminated, which is what I suspect, along with surviving equipment.

If so the best thing they can do is bury everything in place as they are doing. Still we may never know for sure.

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

And so it begins.  Pompeo starts the predicted moving of the goalposts, from demanding actual denuclearization to protections against NK using their nukes against us:

 

 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2018/05/14/is-the-administration-backing-off-trumps-demand-that-north-korea-get-rid-of-its-nukes

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Mojo Hand

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,585]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/n-korea-casts-doubt-on-trump-summit-yonhap/ar-AAxjOft?ocid=spartanntp

 

Kim-Trump summit suddenly in doubt. NK-SK talks postponed indefinitely.

[Lagunamadre 1,975]

9 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/n-korea-casts-doubt-on-trump-summit-yonhap/ar-AAxjOft?ocid=spartanntp

 

Kim-Trump summit suddenly in doubt. NK-SK talks postponed indefinitely.

Shocked. Who could have seen this coming.