The US and Korea

[Pods 7,586]

1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

Did you not see the "..." marks?

And those previous negotiations all turned out to be as worthless as the aggy claims to multiple MNCs.

So what does that tell you about this one? It's worthless too, but worse, because there aren't even any terms the NK have to comply with. We're the only ones making concessions. 

[Dbeasy 15,090]

My guess would be Trump's endorsement of Warren's weed legalization bill a few days ago.   Most of us here on both sides think that's great.  Go Trump. 

Sorry, I meant an issue where Bad Teammate actually agrees with the Republican side. Trump crosses both party lines on issues. The problem I see is the blind alignment of the parties to only their own parties’ positions.

[Armybrat 40,896]

dp

Edited June 12, 2018 by Armybrat

[Armybrat 40,896]

9 minutes ago, Pods said:

So what does that tell you about this one? It's worthless too, but worse, because there aren't even any terms the NK have to comply with. We're the only ones making concessions. 

You are correct, IMO.

[wildcat09 29,378]

6 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Previous Administration's D/R and the media have portrayed the North Koreans as weirdos for so long, people began to believe it.

They are rational actors, who have nuclear leverage and are now moving to take advantage of perceived confusion/weakness in US governance to further their long term goals. Which, frankly, is what they should be doing.

Every time someone gets optimistic that Trump can actually do something good on the international stage, they need to remember this. They need to remember that countries have actual, concrete interests. Trump really doesn't understand that. He doesn't give a shit about doing something good for America; he cares about achieving things for himself. While that's typically something financial, he also loves positive attention because he's a narcissist, so he will pretend that he's trying to achieve something for America. Never think that will lead him to actually consider our real interests though, he's constantly shown that he's more than happy just slapping together some photo op to pretend like he's doing something tangible.

Trump isn't capable of strategic thinking, so he's not capable of understanding strategic thinkers. He will ALWAYS get played on this stage, because he's a very stupid person who is simply looking for praise and bribes. Other leaders will butter him up to get what they want, and he'll crow about what a great relationship they have, not realizing that foreign policy is about concrete interests, not personal relationships.

[wildcat09 29,378]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Sorry man, just realized I typed "narcissist" when I meant to type "nihilist." In my defense, I hadn't had coffee yet.

[Chuckie Finster 22,728]

All of my criticism aside, I will say that it is preferable to have KJU laughing beside you than threatening to nuke your country.  So, for today, that's nice.

[Ragnarok 103]

The only way this accomplished anything is if the U.S. intelligence agencies slipped that crazy bastard an exotic poison that will suddenly kill him in 6 months.  And if it was intelligence agencies, you guys can hope that they slipped Trump a dose too.

[wildcat09 29,378]

Just now, Chuckie Finster said:

All of my criticism aside, I will say that it is preferable to have KJU laughing beside you than threatening to nuke your country.  So, for today, that's nice.

Yeah, diplomacy is infinitely preferable to nuclear war. However, diplomacy done poorly usually leads to war, we're sending the worst possible people we could send to do it, and so far they're showing that they don't even understand the issues and don't care to put in the preparation necessary to understand them. Hence why most of us are pessimistic.

[lemonlime 5,503]

4 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Sorry, I meant an issue where Bad Teammate actually agrees with the Republican side. Trump crosses both party lines on issues. The problem I see is the blind alignment of the parties to only their own parties’ positions.

In general I agree.  But Trump doesn't have any positions.  He only has self interest.  If I thought he would actually do something beneficial on pot after his statement the other day, then I'd praise him.  But he says what he thinks the crowd wants to hear, and doesn't actually do anything beneficial.  Hell, he repeatedly said he would do something about opioids, and hasn't done jack shit.  He campaigned on no cuts to Medicaid or Medicare.  He wanted to build a wall Mexico would pay for.  And then he lies and says he did all that stuff.  It's impossible to support Trump for taking a so called position, when he actually has never taken a real position on anything but his own ego.

And with respect to NK, I'm not remotely hopeful that someone who fucked up diplomacy with Australia, the UK, Germany, and Canada, somehow got it right with NK.

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

3 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

All of my criticism aside, I will say that it is preferable to have KJU laughing beside you than threatening to nuke your country.  So, for today, that's nice.

Agreed.   It's a good thing that KJU talked the madman into a more peaceful posture. 

[bad_teammate 13,224]

12 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Sorry, I meant an issue where Bad Teammate actually agrees with the Republican side. Trump crosses both party lines on issues. The problem I see is the blind alignment of the parties to only their own parties’ positions.

It's not a problem you see, it's a problem you imagine.

I don't keep track. How about you do some sleuthing?

Better yet, tell me something genuinely good that Donald or the Republicans have done recently and I'll give you my take.

[WhatTheBuck 28,798]

4 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

All of my criticism aside, I will say that it is preferable to have KJU laughing beside you than threatening to nuke your country.  So, for today, that's nice.

Except he's laughing at us, not with us, and he's not giving up his nukes. So technically we're no less safe. But he was never going to nuke us anyway unless we tried to remove him from power. That's why he wanted the nukes in the first place. 

[Chuckie Finster 22,728]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Yeah, diplomacy is infinitely preferable to nuclear war. However, diplomacy done poorly usually leads to war, we're sending the worst possible people we could send to do it, and so far they're showing that they don't even understand the issues and don't care to put in the preparation necessary to understand them. Hence why most of us are pessimistic.

Yeah, that was the unstated portion of my post.  Trump has already shown that he does not react well to perceived personal slights, so if North Korea (predictably) does not follow through with this, then we may end up being worse off than if this had never taken place. 

(And this doesn't even mention the fact that the main antagonist over the past few years between the two parties has been Trump himself, so it's like we are congratulating a dog who stopped eating his own shit.)

But, for today, cool.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Chuckie Finster

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

12 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Sorry, I meant an issue where Bad Teammate actually agrees with the Republican side. Trump crosses both party lines on issues. The problem I see is the blind alignment of the parties to only their own parties’ positions.

It's not blind to have a coherent political viewpoint.   At least, not necessarily so.   A liberal should support liberal policies because that's what he believes in.  Same with a conservative.   Blind partisanship is the opposite of that —following the party regardless of the policies it espouses.   Like being against deficits, and then massively increasing them.  Or being against meeting with despots, and then calling it Nobel-worthy.   Or being free trade, and then starting trade wars.  Just to name a few of a dozen recent examples of blind partisanship trumping principle. 

[DixonHur 11,364]

8 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

we're sending the worst possible people we could send to do it

How dare you talk about Dennis Rodman like that.  The man is a national treasure.

[Anastasis 23,482]

Just now, DixonHur said:

How dare you talk about Dennis Rodman like that.  The man is a national treasure.

[Goredho 17,419]

My inconsequential thoughts:  

1. Dbeasy is right.  This is a first step in a change in the handling of NK.  The status quo was surely not the answer, so something different needed to be tried.  None of us knows how this will play out — it may be good, it may be bad.  I couldn’t think less of Trump, so I will be surprised if it winds up benefiting anyone other than himself or Russian interests, but hey, maybe I’ll be wrong.   Maybe the next guy can parlay this into something substantive.  We’ll have to wait and see.  I certainly hope my pessimism is wrong.

2.  It’s astonishing to see our President be graciously diplomatic to a despot like Kim and wantonly antagonistic with our allies that have stood with us against Russia during the Cold War and bled with us on Normandy, in Iraq (twice) and in Afghanistan.  Could he do anything more in his power to weaken the bonds between us and the other nations within G7 and NATO than he currently is?  Waging trade and word wars with democratic allies while simultaneously trying to get Russia into the G7, “pardoning” ZTE and praising the virtues of someone like KJU are not the actions of a man who is putting American interests first.

3. We need to be zoomed out a level and examining his body of work.  You can look at NK and say, “hmm, maybe something good will come of that.”  But its not happening in a vacuum.  It comes on the heels of G7, which comes on the heels of ZTE, which comes on the heels of contradicting our intelligence agencies as to Russian influence into our elections, etc...  When we myopically focus on the event of the day,  we lose sight of the series of actions and what they amount to.  We lose sight of the course being set for our nation and where we are likely to wind up.  When I look at that, I see us being steered into a fucking Russian iceberg, wittingly or not.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

 

Better yet, tell me something genuinely good that Donald or the Republicans have done recently and I'll give you my take.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

 

Better yet, tell me something genuinely good that Donald or the Republicans have done recently and I'll give you my take.

Oooooh oooooh, I got this one.

"They're racists" Bad Teammate

[staboner 4,984]

35 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The rep caps suck.

Is the likelihood of NK deploying nuclear weapons in aggression during the next decade lesser today than it was yesterday?  Than it was Nov 9 2016?  My forward looking assessment would be that it is, in extremely small magnitude, on both counts. Historic F2F meetings with the South Korean leadership and the American leadership can be a pivotal point for progress and de-escalation of the region. I generally prefer meetings and dialog over executing war games in hair trigger regions of the world which lead to missile tests in response.  Surprised (not surprised) to see so many posters on the left all the sudden bemoaning the lost opportunity for the MIC to throw more missiles into the side of a mountain and overfly strategic bombers in a highly militarized region of the world. The extent that we have moved the odds is quite small at this point, but there is opportunity for big strides to be made. That's a good thing in what is a really fucked up world right now. To be clear, I agree with staboner and agree that we have not really moved the ball at all in terms of a concrete agreement, but I prefer Trump and Kim exchanging a hand shake and smiles and de-escalating military activities over tweets about ending the human race. 

I think we for sure moved the needle. I wonder how Un uses this back home, but one can assume it empowers him within the current confines of that regime, which in the long run is a bad thing. 

I am all for demilitarizing that part of the world. Shit i am all for lots of demilitarization across the world. The world will fight on the intertrons and the winner will have the best comp scientists and the most creative ways to deploy them. firing off missiles and blowing shit up is so last century. 

Left right, whatever. Trump needs to espouse human rights and democratic values. His actions tell us he doesn't give a shit and we as a country need to hold his feet to the fire for it. Too bad we are too busy locked in superfluous arguments that perpetuate our differences and don't try at all to find our commonalities (human fucking rights and democratic fucking values). fuck. this nuclear-free work break brought to you by YOUR MOM bitches

[Buzzrock 14,937]

I think what most on the left are reacting to is that when Obama so much as mentioned a willingness to meet with NK he was panned by the right for being naive, and they said it would legitimize NK. But when Trump does it, he's a revolutionary genius who deserves the Nobel Peace Prize. 

That’s interesting. For the group: is that what what you’re reacting to the most?

[Dbeasy 15,090]

This is particularly funny coming from someone who claims to hate Trump, yet on multiple issues has shown a remarkable credulousness in willing to believe that Trump can, wants to, and will achieve something good for the American people. If I recall correctly, weren't you quite optimistic about tax reform and the benefits it would bestow upon ordinary working Americans? How's that looking now?

You are pointing out exactly what I’m conveying. It’s great that you’ve made this comment.

Politically, I lean left. And I hate Trump with a passion. When he first ran, I was optimistic because I didn’t realize he is a miserable human being. I figured it out before the election and didn’t vote for him.

Most of the way, I’ve been embarrassed by him and the Republican Party. I did not support the tax breaks. However, there have been a few things here and there where he and the Republican Party either accomplished something or took a reasonable position. I came into the political forums and engaged with folks thinking that for once there might be a reasonable discourse on the topic where we all agreed. I craved to hear that for once we were united to solve a problem. I also felt that the forums were so left leaning that they had become echo chambers.

Instead, what I found with most of the posters was the exact same poo flinging. The formula is so predictable. Something happens, and each of the liberals and conservatives on here scurry off and find tweets and news stories critical of the other side. Then they post them here and all have a good laugh about the stupidity of the other side, just like this thread. Of course, no one realizes these tweets and stories are prepared by Party backers for the occasion. The reason I know this is because that is what I used to do for a living.

The left leaners have snuffed out most of the conservative posters in this site. If you read the forums, any other views on an issue are not tolerated. The standard response is to make dismissive degrading statements about the poster, add in a Trump-sympathetic comment like “go watch your Apprentice show”, etc. The posters believe they are intellectually superior, when in reality they’ve been hypnotized better than most.

I’ve posted probably ~4 times positive things about Republicans and/or Trump on things where I truly believe they’ve done something good. Each and every one was met with the standard playbook.

I am confident that the self awareness issue will eventually get recognized by people. It will probably take a lot of bad times ahead for it to happen but eventually we will have an awakening where people will start challenging their own beliefs in an effort to get out from under the 24/7 political advertising we are all subjected to every day.

For me personally, the whole situation is bizarre. I find myself “defending” a man I despise, but it’s because I deeply believe that without people becoming fully aware of their personal biases, this country can find itself in a very bad situation down the line.

But, because I fail every time when I come into the political forums on this objective, I just scurry off for months at a time and don’t participate. Every once in awhile I try again, and it’s usually a conservative topic because of the echo chamber bias of the forums.

So ya, I’m a left leaning person that periodically defends Trump and/or conservatives.

[wildcat09 29,378]

Just now, Buzzrock said:

 

That’s interesting. For the group: is that what what you’re reacting to the most?

 

No. Republican hypocrisy is a given, so it barely moves the needle for me. What I'm reacting to is sending a narcissistic moron who would be the mark at any poker table in the world and who abhors preparation or understanding to conduct nuclear diplomacy.

[Dbeasy 15,090]

The rep caps suck.
Is the likelihood of NK deploying nuclear weapons in aggression during the next decade lesser today than it was yesterday?  Than it was Nov 9 2016?  My forward looking assessment would be that it is, in extremely small magnitude, on both counts. Historic F2F meetings with the South Korean leadership and the American leadership can be a pivotal point for progress and de-escalation of the region. I generally prefer meetings and dialog over executing war games in hair trigger regions of the world which lead to missile tests in response.  Surprised (not surprised) to see so many posters on the left all the sudden bemoaning the lost opportunity for the MIC to throw more missiles into the side of a mountain and overfly strategic bombers in a highly militarized region of the world. The extent that we have moved the odds is quite small at this point, but there is opportunity for big strides to be made. That's a good thing in what is a really fucked up world right now. To be clear, I agree with staboner and agree that we have not really moved the ball at all in terms of a concrete agreement, but I prefer Trump and Kim exchanging a hand shake and smiles and de-escalating military activities over tweets about ending the human race. 

That’s my thinking as well. Given Trump’s b.s. in the past I think it’s fair to be skeptical about the “next step”, but let’s see what happens before we go into full ridicule mode. I actually don’t personally believe things will happen, but I’m not going to knee jerk ridicule him today. I’m going to wait for facts.

[bad_teammate 13,224]

8 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

However, there have been a few things here and there where he and the Republican Party either accomplished something or took a reasonable position. ... I’ve posted probably ~4 times positive things about Republicans and/or Trump on things where I truly believe they’ve done something good. Each and every one was met with the standard playbook.

You're completely full of shit. This is Anastasis-level self-aggrandizing "I'm the only reasonable person here, both sides actually" bullshit.

Be specific. Name something good that Trump or the Republicans have done recently and I'll give you my take.

I wonder why you don't do that. lol

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

I think based on what NK has done in the past, anyone with a bit of sense and memory is justified in jumping to the conclusion nothing will come of this.  Unless theres a shit load of behind the scenes diplomatic stuff going on this seems smoke and mirrors.  Maybe the Chinese tariff stuff is wrapped up in this and they're behind the scenes pulling Un's chain.

 If he pulls it off great, I just don't know what recourse we have at this point if he gives us the middle finger.  

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

Things I think:

(1): I'm not convinced economic sanctions have ever accomplished anything meaningful or good;

(2): I don't think isolating a country has ever accomplished anything meaningful and generally just ends up in fucking that country up more;

(3): Economic integration is a far more successful way towards peace and prosperity

(4): I actually like that Trump (who is terrible and does everything for terrible reasons) is trying something new with North Korea--I just wish one of our previous actual grown-up Presidents were in charge;

(5): Trump, predictably, accomplished nothing but touting his own greatness;

Agree on all points, except this particular deal, end military exercises/sanctions for ending nukes, isn't new.  Its the Agreed Framework of 1994.  The only new thing is the surreal spectacle of the meeting itself.

Isolation doesn't work.  Cuba outlasted every other Soviet vassal state because the embargo steeled their resolve while Moscow itself was waiting in a 3 hour line for their first chance to taste a Big Mac.

KJU needs assurance that we aren't gonna come kill him.  For that, he either needs nukes or he needs to maintain the DMZ and the constant war ready state that keeps entrenched artillery targeting Seoul.  Economic integration and partnership will remain difficult if not impossible if the current militarized DMZ remains in place.  He's already shown he's willing to behave as a stable defensive nuclear power.  We should let him be, so that his people can get a taste for Big Macs as well as South Korean pop culture.

[DiceHands 349]

It was all a photo op that his base is going eat up.

Meanwhile, while the orange turd is shaking hands with an evil dictator, our most trusted democratic allies are gearing up for a trade war with him.

Good job, dipshits.  We left the crowd of people with the money, the supplies and the armies for the short man with napoleon complex that doesnt even have enough food to feed his people.

Real smart move there.  Oh but dont worry, he signed a document that says literally nothing, so...  progress! 

[udaydanceparty 33]

BREAKING: 9th Circuit Court orders Kim Jong Un to continue his development of nuclear weapons.

[Dbeasy 15,090]

You're completely full of shit. This is Anastasis-level self-aggrandizing "I'm the only reasonable person here, both sides actually" bullshit.
Be specific. Name something good that Trump or the Republicans have done recently and I'll give you my take.
I wonder why you don't do that. lol

Just waiting for you to stop dodging my question which I asked first.

[Hank Kingsley 21,049]

I'm hopeful. 

But this is like a little boy is trapped in a cave, and we were only able to squeeze a chimp inside for a rescue.  Just crossing your fingers that the chimp saves him instead of shitting all over the place and ripping his limbs off. 

 

 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

The rep caps suck.

Is the likelihood of NK deploying nuclear weapons in aggression during the next decade lesser today than it was yesterday?  Than it was Nov 9 2016?  My forward looking assessment would be that it is, in extremely small magnitude, on both counts. Historic F2F meetings with the South Korean leadership and the American leadership can be a pivotal point for progress and de-escalation of the region. I generally prefer meetings and dialog over executing war games in hair trigger regions of the world which lead to missile tests in response.  Surprised (not surprised) to see so many posters on the left all the sudden bemoaning the lost opportunity for the MIC to throw more missiles into the side of a mountain and overfly strategic bombers in a highly militarized region of the world. The extent that we have moved the odds is quite small at this point, but there is opportunity for big strides to be made. That's a good thing in what is a really fucked up world right now. To be clear, I agree with staboner and agree that we have not really moved the ball at all in terms of a concrete agreement, but I prefer Trump and Kim exchanging a hand shake and smiles and de-escalating military activities over tweets about ending the human race. 

The likelihood of NK deploying nuclear weapons in aggression is the same.  Its near 0.  The only time they will ever deploy nukes will be if SK/US forces are marching on their capital.  They could have wiped Seoul off the map for 50 years and haven't because they don't want to.  Its actually ridiculous how often we fall for the idea of a madman with a button.  Every nation, and certainly every dictator, is interested in self preservation above all.

There is only one country in the world who could nuke someone offensively and get away with it.  Israel.  For everyone else, including us, hell will be rained down in response.

Edited June 12, 2018 by FondrenRoad

[hayden_horn 11,365]

24 minutes ago, staboner said:

I think we for sure moved the needle. I wonder how Un uses this back home, but one can assume it empowers him within the current confines of that regime, which in the long run is a bad thing. 

I am all for demilitarizing that part of the world. Shit i am all for lots of demilitarization across the world. The world will fight on the intertrons and the winner will have the best comp scientists and the most creative ways to deploy them. firing off missiles and blowing shit up is so last century. 

Left right, whatever. Trump needs to espouse human rights and democratic values. His actions tell us he doesn't give a shit and we as a country need to hold his feet to the fire for it. Too bad we are too busy locked in superfluous arguments that perpetuate our differences and don't try at all to find our commonalities (human fucking rights and democratic fucking values). fuck. this nuclear-free work break brought to you by YOUR MOM bitches

yes, a lot of this, yall.

but also, that yall don't understand how much face we just lost in asia...kim just pantsed us on an international stage. yall get that, right?

[Jive Turkey 12,642]

This is about one thing and one thing only: Trump wants a Nobel prize. Because Obama has one. That’s it  

Trump wanted the photo op and something, anything, in writing with NK. 

Mission accomplished. 

Now the Nobel prize pandering  tour will kick in high gear.  

Just view it through that lens.  Don’t treat that as actual diplomacy. You’ll drive yourself mad. Just see this as Trump promoting himself, which is what his entire term is about. 

[staboner 4,984]

15 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

yes, a lot of this, yall.

but also, that yall don't understand how much face we just lost in asia...kim just pantsed us on an international stage. yall get that, right?

sure

i still take. we don't even fucking have any pants anymore anyway. we are retarded and have a POTUS who doesn't belong there. being pansted is way past where we need to be caring imo. we jumped the pansting care chasm some time ago

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

19 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

yes, a lot of this, yall.

but also, that yall don't understand how much face we just lost in asia...kim just pantsed us on an international stage. yall get that, right?

"We" are the same country that tied China and NK in the 50s and got our ass kicked in Nam in the 60s and 70s.  I'm not sure our government has had much "face" for a long time.  Asia, like Europe, has long understood that our gov't can be ham-handed, unreliable, and dysfunctional.  The real ambassadors of America are our corporations, who enter with a plan and stick with it, sometimes for the gain of the local populace, and other times to their detriment.  Maybe you've noticed how foreign nations will call CEOs directly to task without going through diplomatic channels.  You're already seeing US companies come to heel on EU views on climate change and on GDPR, and we'll benefit from that too, even though our gov't doesn't give a shit about our air and water or our privacy.

So "we" as Americans can still go to Asia and do all the same shit we were doing before even if they think Trump is an assclown.  People, both here and abroad, wanted Obama to save us from corporatocracy.  That was the "promise" he offered, but it didn't work out. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by FondrenRoad

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4,977]

39 minutes ago, staboner said:

I think we for sure moved the needle. I wonder how Un uses this back home, but one can assume it empowers him within the current confines of that regime, which in the long run is a bad thing. 

Is it for sure a bad thing? Kim no doubt faces significant opposition by a lot of his military brass and folks who could unseat him. One interpretation is that he has been working towards removing those most likely to oppose peace from power while also working on nukes to appease those on the fence and to gain a bargaining chip. Now that he has done both he can work toward peace and reform. Of course that is just a theory, and nobody really knows what his motivations are right now. But the fact that he was educated in the west and has seen enough of the outside world to know what he is missing out on could lend creedence to it. I'll remain cautiously optimistic that something like this is actually what is going on.

[Dahobbs 17,682]

26 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Just waiting for you to stop dodging my question which I asked first.

Your question assumes there is something he should praise. I honestly can't think of anything that is even mildly praise worthy, at least not within the last 4 years. Since you seem to have an idea of what that is, why I don't you tell us? 

[MaybeACoordinator 8,349]

My buddy on the Hill's take:

 

- the bar is fucking low...so I was surprised it wasn’t more painfully embarrassing

- Team Trump is hailing an agreement that is completely absent of guarantees and enforcement provisions...unlike the Iran Deal which actually had enforceable provisions

- South Korea’s somewhat silent response up till now let’s you know how wary we should be about N Korea’s promises

- Kim...a megalomaniac craves validation and he got it

- Trump...a megalomaniac craves validation and he got it

- ending joint military exercises with S Korea will be a mistake that everyone but Team Trump will point out

- only thing missing was Trump exclaiming “peace in our time” in his best Neville Chamberlain voice as Trump waved the agreement

- Trump has proven the Melian dialogue true...Great nations do what they want...weak ones what they must...Trump wanted to bitch slap allies and cozy up to dictators...he can do what he wants...Kim had to cozy up to US and Trump...eventually though Trump will destroy America’s great nation position

- the US just validated a dynastic kleptocracy that enslaves it’s citizens...after a weekend of the US telling it’s Western Liberal Democratic allies to go fuck themselves...

...this is where we are...it only gets worse...

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

2 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

My buddy on the Hill's take:

 

- the bar is fucking low...so I was surprised it wasn’t more painfully embarrassing

- Team Trump is hailing an agreement that is completely absent of guarantees and enforcement provisions...unlike the Iran Deal which actually had enforceable provisions

- South Korea’s somewhat silent response up till now let’s you know how wary we should be about N Korea’s promises

- Kim...a megalomaniac craves validation and he got it

- Trump...a megalomaniac craves validation and he got it

- ending joint military exercises with S Korea will be a mistake that everyone but Team Trump will point out

- only thing missing was Trump exclaiming “peace in our time” in his best Neville Chamberlain voice as Trump waved the agreement

- Trump has proven the Melian dialogue true...Great nations do what they want...weak ones what they must...Trump wanted to bitch slap allies and cozy up to dictators...he can do what he wants...Kim had to cozy up to US and Trump...eventually though Trump will destroy America’s great nation position

- the US just validated a dynastic kleptocracy that enslaves it’s citizens...after a weekend of the US telling it’s Western Liberal Democratic allies to go fuck themselves...

...this is where we are...it only gets worse...

Spot fucking on. 

[Mapache 1,117]

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

3 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

My buddy on the Hill's take:

 

- the bar is fucking low...so I was surprised it wasn’t more painfully embarrassing

- Team Trump is hailing an agreement that is completely absent of guarantees and enforcement provisions...unlike the Iran Deal which actually had enforceable provisions

- South Korea’s somewhat silent response up till now let’s you know how wary we should be about N Korea’s promises

- Kim...a megalomaniac craves validation and he got it

- Trump...a megalomaniac craves validation and he got it

- ending joint military exercises with S Korea will be a mistake that everyone but Team Trump will point out

- only thing missing was Trump exclaiming “peace in our time” in his best Neville Chamberlain voice as Trump waved the agreement

- Trump has proven the Melian dialogue true...Great nations do what they want...weak ones what they must...Trump wanted to bitch slap allies and cozy up to dictators...he can do what he wants...Kim had to cozy up to US and Trump...eventually though Trump will destroy America’s great nation position

- the US just validated a dynastic kleptocracy that enslaves it’s citizens...after a weekend of the US telling it’s Western Liberal Democratic allies to go fuck themselves...

...this is where we are...it only gets worse...

The thing about the joint military exercises is that they are really for Chinese consumption.  If we end them, we will still need to show China our power, "local team", and commitment to the region in some way.

[udaydanceparty 33]

[Caracara 41]

 

[bad_teammate 13,224]

43 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Just waiting for you to stop dodging my question which I asked first.

Which ones? This thread is moving fast and I have no clue what question you're talking about.

I don't remember anything good the Republicans or Trump have done recently that I would have praised. I might have, I might not, I don't remember.

Be specific. Name something good that Trump or the Republicans have done recently and I'll give you my take. I am perfectly happy to praise positive actions. I know you don't believe that because you're up your ass Anastasis-style in believing you're the last sane person alive, but give it a try.

[hayden_horn 11,365]

18 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

"We" are the same country that tied China and NK in the 50s and got our ass kicked in Nam in the 60s and 70s.  I'm not sure our government has had much "face" for a long time.  Asia, like Europe, has long understood that our gov't can be ham-handed, unreliable, and dysfunctional.  The real ambassadors of America are our corporations, who enter with a plan and stick with it, sometimes for the gain of the local populace, and other times to their detriment.  Maybe you've noticed how foreign nations will call CEOs directly to task without going through diplomatic channels.  You're already seeing US companies come to heel on EU views on climate change and on GDPR, and we'll benefit from that too, even though our gov't doesn't give a shit about our air and water or our privacy.

So "we" as Americans can still go to Asia and do all the same shit we were doing before even if they think Trump is an assclown.  People, both here and abroad, wanted Obama to save us from corporatocracy.  That was the "promise" he offered, but it didn't work out. 

of course we have face, we are the world's reserve currency, and most of our manufacturing takes place in asia. we project our military might in asia, through both bases and our navy. and, to your point, our corporations tend to run shit in asia. however, face means different things to different people, especially those in countries where the message is controlled (ahem, china, north korea), where we just legitimized a monstrous dictator in return for...nothing. that's fucking embarrassing, even aside from the face lost there. 

11 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

I agree.  In fact, to the extent the Asian countries actually are preoccupied with face, that’s a weakness to exploit.  Trump is of course not doing that and would be about the worst vehicle ever to try to do that, but plenty of western businesses have benefited from Far East business people placing (what we would think) is undue importance on things we really don’t give a shit about.  

of course it's a weakness to exploit. and of course, we could not capitalize on that. had our fucking president gone into this with a strict discipline and certain unwavering bullet points that needed to be met, this could have been a good thing. instead, we got a dog and pony show, which gave kim more legitimacy and positive fame than was necessary. these guys were calling each other dotard and little rocket man! we truly live in strange times.

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

13 minutes ago, udaydanceparty said:

This would be laughably stupid even if Trump and the right hadn't killed the Iran deal, but that context is really the icing on top. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,798]

59 minutes ago, udaydanceparty said:

 

 

BREAKING: 9th Circuit Court orders Kim Jong Un to continue his development of nuclear weapons.

Why do you need a sock, Hugo? What's the point?

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

14 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

of course we have face, we are the world's reserve currency, and most of our manufacturing takes place in asia. we project our military might in asia, through both bases and our navy. and, to your point, our corporations tend to run shit in asia. however, face means different things to different people, especially those in countries where the message is controlled (ahem, china, north korea), where we just legitimized a monstrous dictator in return for...nothing. that's fucking embarrassing, even aside from the face lost there. 

of course it's a weakness to exploit. and of course, we could not capitalize on that. had our fucking president gone into this with a strict discipline and certain unwavering bullet points that needed to be met, this could have been a good thing. instead, we got a dog and pony show, which gave kim more legitimacy and positive fame than was necessary. these guys were calling each other dotard and little rocket man! we truly live in strange times.

My point is that what Trump or the US gov't does plays no role whatsoever in how a company like Amazon or someone like Bezos are perceived.  And even as an individual American traveling in Asia has lost no "face."  The real perception that Asia has had of Americans is that of an individualist cowboy culture.  Its actually the primary thing they think sets us apart from them.  We all kind of do whatever we want, damn the rules.  Because of that, each American entity gets its own "face", so to speak.  Trump lost face.  Amazon didn't.  Neither did America in the long run really.  They know Trump will just be replaced with another unreliable cowboy.

Also, our military is definitely powerful, but it is as unreliable as our President because our political system means that we are never going to complete a military task.  The Korean War ended in 1953.  Even that ended in a ceasefire, but it's also the last time we ever stayed to finish what we started.  We lost Vietnam, and that's been the blueprint to beat us ever since.  Never stop a guerrilla war and eventually we'll quit due to a political and public opinion swing.  We've only fucked up the Middle East worse than it was.  

Edited June 12, 2018 by FondrenRoad