Lincoln Canceled in SF

[ztejas 43741]

8 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Lincoln was himself a racist.  He would have sent all the blacks back to Africa if it was politically expedient. 

I never knew you worked at the SF board of education.

[Hookah Horns 3083]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I got banned from TexAgs, how the hell am I reading it here?

Be concerned about things that should concern you.

- Things that impact your life or your community.
- Things that hurt people.

This is neither. You're trying to sell a gossip issue as a real issue.

My parents and siblings being deluded daily by Fox News propaganda about the big bad radical left and my campaign to convince them it is in fact propaganda kind of does impact my life, though. 

I'm not sure how you became the arbiter of what is/n't a real issue or the scope of what anyone should be concerned about, but it's a bit off-putting. 

I didn't start this thread because this is a life altering issue, rather it was because I found it equal parts absurd, humorous, and aggravating. But I get it, you don't give a shit about this story, and that's cool.

 

[Brisketexan 105569]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Or the standard shifts for that community over time.

 

Well, yes and no.

The standard of "F you black people, America is for white folks, and don't you forget it" which led to much of the Civil War fetishization and iconography from the late 1800s through the Civil Rights era....yeah, that standard shifted.  And it should have.

The standard of "it doesn't matter what good and important things a person did, if they have any black mark on their record, we can't do anything that remotely honors them" is stupid.  Because the reality of being a human being means that the standard is REALLY "No human is worthy of any honoring, because all humans have done shitty things."  I mean, if you WANT that standard, cool.  I don't care.  Just be honest about what you're doing.  I'll suggest that it's a stupid standard, but hey, if that's the one the local community wants to adopt, that's their call.  

I genuinely don't care what any school in Pocatello or Peoria is called.  I really don't.  But I can observe that the standard they are adopting is stupid, and I'd prefer not to adopt it widely.

[Continental Op 3934]

1. It's stupid

2. But who cares? 

[bad_teammate 13299]

Conservatives live in either dying small towns or generic exurbs, are represented by people like Bimboebert and MJTQ and they have energy to talk about SF, a successful and world-renowned city that people want to live in and experience.

[bad_teammate 13299]

1 minute ago, Hookah Horns said:

My parents and siblings being deluded daily by Fox News propaganda about the big bad radical left and my campaign to convince them it is in fact propaganda kind of does impact my life, though. 

Stop doing that.

Problem solved.

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

The standard of "it doesn't matter what good and important things a person did, if they have any black mark on their record, we can't do anything that remotely honors them" is stupid.  Because the reality of being a human being means that the standard is REALLY "No human is worthy of any honoring, because all humans have done shitty things."

Or the standard is, "We have specific concerns right now which means that some 'sins' are worse than others with regard to public honorifics."

Which seems like the case.

[Jive Turkey 12722]

you know how i know that a Democrat is POTUS?

because stupid shit like this is "news."

so be it.  beats the alternative.  Trump doing something that actually hurts people's health or finances, instead of something like this SF news that hurts your feelings.

[Hookah Horns 3083]

15 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Lincoln was himself a racist.  He would have sent all the blacks back to Africa if it was politically expedient. 

I think that notion about Africa was more about his belief that white people would never accept living next to free blacks - which, sadly, was more than a little accurate - than it was his own feelings about blacks. 

[smuggs 9354]

43 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

They could rename every school to "Giant Dildo Crushing The Sun" and I wouldn't care. 

Would love to design the helmet logo and mascot.

[Hookah Horns 3083]

28 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

So your position is that a school board renaming schools is on the same discussion field as violence against minorities?

No. Do you not understand how the principle is the same and how that works in argument? 

[ztejas 43741]

6 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

I think that notion about Africa was more about his belief that white people would never accept living next to free blacks - which, sadly, was more than a little accurate - than it was his own feelings about blacks. 

iirc Lincoln's views on racism and blacks in America shifted while he was in office - from it being mostly political to it being a personally held belief that no one should be enslaved.

I mean, Hugo was maybe joking. 

[Brisketexan 105569]

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

 

Or the standard is, "We have specific concerns right now which means that some 'sins' are worse than others with regard to public honorifics."

Which seems like the case.

Meh, not really.  Every human sin can easily be couched in terms that matter to the ethos we see there.  MLK's philandering?  It's blatant misogyny, seeing women as objects to be used and abused.  That's incompatible with viewing women as humans with full rights and dignity who must be respected.  So, no more MLK.  That's just the easy example.  I can do it with literally any "hero" you name - I can find their foible/failing, and couch it in terms that make their sins unacceptable by the ethos you are discussing.

Several of us around here remember getting mocked for years by the Trumpkin GOP for using the term "nuance" -- which we used as we criticized their short-sighted, simpleton black-and-white worldview.  It's not that it's wrong because it's right-wing -- it's wrong because a simplified, all one-way, none the-other-way worldview necessarily is a warped view of reality.

The approach you are observing has no meaningful nuance.  It's just as dumb when a lefty does it as when a Trumpkin does it.

[bad_teammate 13299]

50 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

They could rename every school to "Giant Dildo Crushing The Sun" and I wouldn't care. 

it's good that you would...

Pay No Mind

 

 

[Brisketexan 105569]

7 minutes ago, smuggs said:

Would love to design the helmet logo and mascot.

I think that there is a university ripe for this name.....

 

[Biff Tannen 45763]

35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

  If your standard is "only name it after people with no black marks on their ledger," then you've decided not to name anything after anyone.

Yep. There was a faux outrage session against John Muir a while back. It faded quickly because people realized how stupid it was, but people do need to dial it back a bit. Humans are flawed and there are shades of gray. That’s how existence works. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, Hookah Horns said:

I think that notion about Africa was more about his belief that white people would never accept living next to free blacks - which, sadly, was more than a little accurate - than it was his own feelings about blacks. 

But that still makes him a white supremacist  in practice or at least anti-egalitarian when it came to Blacks.
 

In the first of the famous Lincoln-Douglas debates in Ottawa in August 1858, Lincoln countered Douglas’ accusation by stating: “I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is physical difference between the two, which in my judgment will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality.” 
 

https://www.nprillinois.org/post/lincoln-race-great-emancipator-didnt-advocate-racial-equality-was-he-racist#stream/0
 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

iirc Lincoln's views on racism and blacks in America shifted while he was in office - from it being mostly political to it being a personally held belief that no one should be enslaved.

I mean, Hugo was maybe joking. 

This is my understanding too. Lincoln’s views on race did evolve. 

[Thatguy 9034]

White Educated Females are the spearhead for cancel culture. Prove me wrong.

[Foosters 17918]

15 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

you know how i know that a Democrat is POTUS?

@Onboard 2.0 is back in the CR?

[Brisketexan 105569]

4 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

White Educated Females are the spearhead for cancel culture. Prove me wrong.

"Karens" are not confined to any specific political spectrum.

I have been annoyed and judged by as many granola-crunching Karens as I have been by Suburban-driving Starbucks-drinking Karens.

Karens....they're a problem.

[bad_teammate 13299]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Every human sin can easily be couched in terms that matter to the ethos we see there.

Yes. That's how we make these honorific choices in the first place.

We looked at Lee and said, "slavery was bad, but his positives outweigh his negatives." and we named everything after him. Now our social standards and values evolve and the balance changes and now we don't name things after him anymore and strip his name off of stuff.

You seem perplexed that change happens.

[Serak The Preparer 3436]

21 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

No. Do you not understand how the principle is the same and how that works in argument? 

I have to confess, I do not understand how the principle is the same. The tax rate in Peoria, SF renaming schools, the policy towards homeless in Kansas City, the restaurant zoning in Boston are all so incredibly unrelated to Proud Boys / alt-right that I honestly can't fathom having sincere discussions with anyone who tries to equivocate them.

[Brisketexan 105569]

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes. That's how we make these honorific choices in the first place.

We looked at Lee and said, "slavery was bad, but his positives outweigh his negatives." and we named everything after him. Now our social standards and values evolve and the balance changes and now we don't name things after him anymore and strip his name off of stuff.

You seem perplexed that change happens.

No, I'm not perplexed that change happens.....but come on.  If you think that the majority of things named after Lee were in SPITE of his confederate and "fighting for slavery" history....well, you don't think that.  You're being disingenuous.

There IS and can be a place for change to happen - for us to reevaluate people, and look at the parts of their history that were whitewashed, and maybe conclude that those shitty things that were hidden for so long mean that the person probably shouldn't be honored, fine.  But that's not really the standard here.  The standard looks a whole lot like "if we can dig up anything negative about a person, then that person shouldn't be honored at all."  It's silly, it looks silly, and it actually pulls the rug out from under an approach that SHOULD be a simple and honest one: let's honestly evaluate all figures and actions in our history.  Good and bad, let's not shy away from it or hide it.

[956 Worldwide 34912]

This shit is catnip to the right-wing and I think it was almost designed with that purpose in mind.

Let’s be real about how this process works.  The SF ISD appointed a Committee of People Qualified to Decide Who’s Racist. That committee returned with a list of —honestly— pretty damn tenuous names.  We’re beyond canceling Dead White Men, they canceled a sitting U.S. Senator, a Jewish lion of the progressive movement, because she failed to remove the battle flag from a 1982 exhibition of historic flags soon enough.

And with those recommendations what does the board do? What might happen if you question the judgment of the Committee of People Qualified to Decide Who’s Racist? What pronouncement might the Committee make about you? The outcome is determined and elected officials passed the buck and ensured that the most extreme voices get the W.

This is undiluted, Culture Warrior, Struggle Session bullshit that has nothing to do with grappling with racism and history or student outcomes, and everything about drawing battle lines and smoking out those who are insufficiently pure today.

[Biff Tannen 45763]

20 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's silly, it looks silly, and it actually pulls the rug out from under an approach that SHOULD be a simple and honest one: let's honestly evaluate all figures and actions in our history.  Good and bad, let's not shy away from it or hide it.

Perhaps we should consult sie Germans on this one.

[Jerry Callo 8829]

I think SF and its citizens should pay reparations for building a dam across the Hetch Hetchy Valley and turning pristine parts of Yosemite into a reservoir.  Sure it happened over a century ago, but the current residents of SF are still reaping the benefits.

[Upgrayedd 5824]

3 minutes ago, Jerry Callo said:

I think SF and its citizens should pay reparations for building a dam across the Hetch Hetchy Valley and turning pristine parts of Yosemite into a reservoir.  Sure it happened over a century ago, but the current residents of SF are still reaping the benefits.

Lulz.  Like that'll happen.

Morons want to spend $1 Million to make this change.  Good use of funds.  Good thing they are flush with cash.

[We’reTexas 1473]

3 minutes ago, Jerry Callo said:

I think SF and its citizens should pay reparations for building a dam across the Hetch Hetchy Valley and turning pristine parts of Yosemite into a reservoir.  Sure it happened over a century ago, but the current residents of SF are still reaping the benefits.

You laugh but the school board also canceled John Muir. 

[Brisketexan 105569]

3 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Perhaps we should consult sie Germans on this one.

Man....the German Historical Museum in Berlin is fantastic on this count.  It contains a very matter-of-fact recounting of the rise of naziism, the rhetoric and techniques used, etc.  It's almost clinical....which makes it that much more powerful.  It's not an emotional story, spun a certain way to either elicit sympathy for Germany (hey, maybe we weren't SO bad!) or for the victims of the regime (let's talk about the victims of the holocaust on end, and paint the Germans as evil cartoon characters).  The fact that you are looking at, metaphorically, an undoctored photo as opposed to a painting with the artist's perspective, makes it even more horrifying.

Particularly as an American.  Particularly when you see and read the rhetoric and techniques used as their evil fascist movement rose to power....and your blood runs cold as you realize that you are seeing so many of those same things happening in real-time at home.  But I digress.

The point being, an honest and unvarnished account of history is the healthiest for all concerned.

 

* Side note - we also cracked up at the honesty, coupled with bitterness, in the Neues museum (I think it was that one), where many of the ancient artifacts that German archeologists gathered are kept.  First, they honestly refer to much of it as "plunder."  But they also note pieces that are missing.....and follow it with a note to the effect of "the bastard Russians stole them during the war, and won't give them back."

[bad_teammate 13299]

25 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

There IS and can be a place for change to happen - for us to reevaluate people, and look at the parts of their history that were whitewashed, and maybe conclude that those shitty things that were hidden for so long mean that the person probably shouldn't be honored, fine.  But that's not really the standard here.  The standard looks a whole lot like "if we can dig up anything negative about a person, then that person shouldn't be honored at all."  It's silly, it looks silly, and it actually pulls the rug out from under an approach that SHOULD be a simple and honest one: let's honestly evaluate all figures and actions in our history.  Good and bad, let's not shy away from it or hide it.

Did you read their stated rationales? Because it is clearly not just random sins, it's specific sins that concern THAT community (racism, colonization, and treatment of animals).

You can reject the validity of those objections (just like FOX drones do), but they are very clear with their WHY. It's not a generalized "no sinners allowed". They have specific sins they are targeting.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Lincoln was himself a racist.  He would have sent all the blacks back to Africa if it was politically expedient. 

Probably wishes he would have ginned up some more significant gun control legislation too.

[Brisketexan 105569]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Did you read their stated rationales? Because it is clearly not just random sins, it's specific sins that concern THAT community (racism, colonization, and treatment of animals).

You can reject the validity of those objections (just like FOX drones do), but they are very clear with their WHY. It's not a generalized "no sinners allowed". They have specific sins they are targeting.

No, I followed it quite clearly.  Racism, colonization, sexism, treatment of animals.

Now that we've listed that....find me someone who doesn't have a sin like that somewhere in their history.  Seriously.  Either directly, enabling, etc.  I, for one, need to submit my own disqualification -- I said some really offensive sexist shit as as drunk male college student back in the day.  Doesn't matter what else I do in my life, that disqualifies me.  Also, I hunt.  I follow all game laws, always have tried to do so.  I don't trophy hunt, I'm a consumption hunter.  But, I imagine that disqualifies me as well.

We can keep doing this.  Pick a person.  We can find a failing under the SF criteria.  It's ridiculous.  Those criteria are so broad that they functionally capture "were you ever an asshole?"  The answer to that is yes.  It's always yes.

[bad_teammate 13299]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Now that we've listed that....find me someone who doesn't have a sin like that somewhere in their history. 

Find..
- non-racist
- non-Colonizer
- non-animal-torturer

You're acting like that's impossible?

[We’reTexas 1473]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Did you read their stated rationales? Because it is clearly not just random sins, it's specific sins that concern THAT community (racism, colonization, and treatment of animals).

You can reject the validity of those objections (just like FOX drones do), but they are very clear with their WHY. It's not a generalized "no sinners allowed". They have specific sins they are targeting.

No, not really. A parent following all this compiled a report on the absurdity of the process. They were basically browsing Wikipedia and often using one-off instances of perceived bad acts to strike people. In some cases they flat out based their decisions on factually incorrect bases. I live in SF and am very familiar with the buffoons that inhabit local political bodies. 95% of the city, including London Brees, would agree this is a joke. 

[ztejas 43741]

Obama smoked weed and presided over drone strikes. He's out, too. JFK was a known womanizer and had an all-white, all-male cabinet. Out. Hattie Caraway was probably a little racist and voted against anti-lynching and for segregation. So fuck her accomplishments.

[bad_teammate 13299]

7 minutes ago, We’reTexas said:

No, not really. A parent following all this compiled a report on the absurdity of the process. They were basically browsing Wikipedia and often using one-off instances of perceived bad acts to strike people. In some cases they flat out based their decisions on factually incorrect bases. I live in SF and am very familiar with the buffoons that inhabit local political bodies. 95% of the city, including London Brees, would agree this is a joke. 

I will take this over boards of education in Texas that want to teach that slavery was actually good for blacks and evolution is a myth.

Speck in brother's eye
Beam in my eye

[David Dennison 19117]

If San Francisco wants to cancel Lincoln, let San Francisco cancel Lincoln.

[Brisketexan 105569]

19 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Find..
- non-racist
- non-Colonizer
- non-animal-torturer

You're acting like that's impossible?

Add sexist, abusive of other people.....yeah, it's pretty close to impossible.  

As to racist.....pretty much anyone over the age of 30 has some history of racism.  We have been a racist society for a long time, and have tolerated it for a long time.

13 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Obama smoked weed and presided over drone strikes. He's out, too. JFK was a known womanizer and had an all-white, all-male cabinet. Out. Hattie Caraway was probably a little racist and voted against anti-lynching and for segregation. So fuck her accomplishments.

These.  These are good examples of the absurdity of it all.  I can find material warts on everyone, and yes, warts that match with "woke" criteria.

8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I will take this over boards of education in Texas that want to teach that slavery was actually good for blacks and evolution is a myth.

Speck in brother's eye
Beam in my eye

Well, some of this, sure.  But frankly, I would decline to order either idiocy-based dish on the menu.  That's my preference.

Right-wing idiocy doesn't excuse left-wing idiocy.  I have a strong anti-idiocy platform, always have.  

Needless to say, I have been living in disappointment for some time.

[Mole 4336]

As has been widely stated:

1. This is dumb.

2. Getting worked up about it is also dumb. Local issues are local. People are free to do dumb things in their communities especially when those things are mostly harmless.

3. For a supposed liberal echo chamber, this board widely seems to think this is dumb.

4. Culture war gonna culture war. Outrage over dumb things needs constant new material, so I guess SF is doing their part. Wonderful.

5. This isn’t erasing history. My middle school was named after the road it was on, which was presumably named after somebody mildly important to my community. I have no idea who my middle school was named after but I know who Lincoln was.

[Brisketexan 105569]

4 minutes ago, Mole said:

As has been widely stated:

1. This is dumb.

2. Getting worked up about it is also dumb. Local issues are local. People are free to do dumb things in their communities especially when those things are mostly harmless.

3. For a supposed liberal echo chamber, this board widely seems to think this is dumb.

4. Culture war gonna culture war. Outrage over dumb things needs constant new material, so I guess SF is doing their part. Wonderful.

5. This isn’t erasing history. My middle school was named after the road it was on, which was presumably named after somebody mildly important to my community. I have no idea who my middle school was named after but I know who Lincoln was.

Good summary.

And I do want to highlight point 3.  Some "liberal cabal" we have going here.  It just shows you how fucking far right the Overton window has lurched.

[Biff Tannen 45763]

59 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

If San Francisco wants to cancel Lincoln, let San Francisco cancel Lincoln.

This.  It makes them look stupid, IMO, but add it to the list.  Their city, their thing.  Don't give a shit.

[Js1 85744]

58 minutes ago, Mole said:

As has been widely stated:

1. This is dumb.

2. Getting worked up about it is also dumb. Local issues are local. People are free to do dumb things in their communities especially when those things are mostly harmless.

3. For a supposed liberal echo chamber, this board widely seems to think this is dumb.

4. Culture war gonna culture war. Outrage over dumb things needs constant new material, so I guess SF is doing their part. Wonderful.

5. This isn’t erasing history. My middle school was named after the road it was on, which was presumably named after somebody mildly important to my community. I have no idea who my middle school was named after but I know who Lincoln was.

THANK YOU. 

[fattyflattie 4639]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

as many granola-crunching Karens as I have been by Suburban-driving Starbucks-drinking Karens.

That’s the same Karen.  

[Brisketexan 105569]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

That’s the same Karen.  

Not really.

The second one shaves her armpits.

[fattyflattie 4639]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Not really.

The second one shaves her armpits.

Ok you mean for real Granola?  Gotcha, loud and clear. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by fattyflattie

[Hagbard Celine 10994]

1 hour ago, Jerry Callo said:

I think SF and its citizens should pay reparations for building a dam across the Hetch Hetchy Valley and turning pristine parts of Yosemite into a reservoir.  Sure it happened over a century ago, but the current residents of SF are still reaping the benefits.

best-tasting tap water in the werld

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

The most surprising thing about any of this is that SF still has a school system. I thought families had been priced out of there years ago. 

[HenryJames 66277]

 

[atomheartbevo 90041]

7 hours ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

Great, now 2021 is as bad as 2020. Remember the Lincoln!! 

[atomheartbevo 90041]

6 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

  San Francisco needs to abolish itself. It was built on the back of virtual Chinese slave wage labor....

Given that "Fran" is derivative of the old Spanish word roughly translating to "fuck", and "Cisco" was slang for "Chinese", and the whole thing translates roughly to "Fuck the Chinese", yeah, that would be a good start.

My translation maybe spotty though.