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How does the U.S. benefit from our relationship w/Israel?

fakebusiness

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fakebusiness

fakebusiness 129

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We give them billions in guaranteed unquestioned aid. Lobbying groups like AIPAC have a disproportionate amount of influence on our elections & foreign policy. They are a "Democracy" in the Middle East yet are an ethnonationist state seperated by apartheid with racist immigration laws. Intermarriage is illegal. They have been caught spying on the United States too many times to list. Multiple people who've worked at our state department w/significant influence have been caught giving their government or lobbying groups secret information.

All I'm asking is what are our benefits of this seemingly one-sided relationship and why is even the slightest amount of inquiry on this relationship met with false accusations of anti-Semitism? 

 

 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31281

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I think two things underlie US support for Israel.  First was (and is) collective guilt for the Holocaust and a millenium of anti-Semitism. The second, I think, is that it was recognized that it was a force for stability and western values in the Middle East.  You implicitly recognize these factors.

Here a half-century later, those justifications are attenuated by the passage of time and actual experience.  Now, it is support from American Jewry, which is getting less uniform, and to some extent the whole eschatological fundagelical thing that holds that Israel must exist to bring about the Rapture.  But the realpolitik of having an ally, even a kind of devious one, in the region probably trumps [sic] all else, from a political standpoint.

In many ways, a religious state such as Israel is anathema to most things American.  And while a lot of formal policy of Israel is dictated by religion, I think in actuality or practice it is a pretty liberal western democracy.  Israeli non-Jews and irreligious Jews have pretty good lives there, especially for religious minorities in that part of the world, despite the many legalistic discriminations you note.  As the older generations that fought the wars of independence and preservation die off, I'd expect it to continue to liberalize and maybe to abandon a lot of the current policies that are so distasteful.

As to anti-Semitism, well, Jews are probably the single most discriminated-against group ever to walk the earth.  It may not be uniformly true today, but historically, opposition to Israel's existence was actually an expression of anti-Semitism.  So it may not be fully accurate today that opposition to Israeli policies reflects or expresses anti-Semitism, but heated topics like this draw that kind of comparison or labeling just on the historical precedent alone.

 

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Neonmoon

Neonmoon 38127

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Think of Israel as a forward operating base against Russia and Middle East 

U.S.-Israeli security cooperation dates back to heights of the Cold War, when the Jewish state came to be seen in Washington as a bulwark against Soviet influence in the Middle East and a counter to Arab nationalism. Israel remains a counterweight against radical forces in the Middle East, including political Islam and violent extremism. It has also prevented the further proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in the region by thwarting Iraq and Syria's nuclear programs.

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11360

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honestly, and this is my opinion, i think a lot of it has to do with the mossad. they don't play by the same rules as we do, and our rules are pretty fucking loosey goosey. i think there is plenty of valuable intelligence sharing that goes on.

i'm not saying it's worth it, necessarily, but since the foundation of israel, we have let them get away with worse than south africa domestic policy and some other shady shit, and that's a fairly bipartisan thing. something is visible to the powers that be that is not visible to us is my guess.

ERxMxn2j

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 104624

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9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think two things underlie US support for Israel.  First was (and is) collective guilt for the Holocaust and a millenium of anti-Semitism. The second, I think, is that it was recognized that it was a force for stability and western values in the Middle East.  You implicitly recognize these factors.

Here a half-century later, those justifications are attenuated by the passage of time and actual experience.  Now, it is support from American Jewry, which is getting less uniform, and to some extent the whole eschatological fundagelical thing that holds that Israel must exist to bring about the Rapture.  But the realpolitik of having an ally, even a kind of devious one, in the region probably trumps [sic] all else, from a political standpoint.

In many ways, a religious state such as Israel is anathema to most things American.  And while a lot of formal policy of Israel is dictated by religion, I think in actuality or practice it is a pretty liberal western democracy.  Israeli non-Jews and irreligious Jews have pretty good lives there, especially for religious minorities in that part of the world, despite the many legalistic discriminations you note.  As the older generations that fought the wars of independence and preservation die off, I'd expect it to continue to liberalize and maybe to abandon a lot of the current policies that are so distasteful.

As to anti-Semitism, well, Jews are probably the single most discriminated-against group ever to walk the earth.  It may not be uniformly true today, but historically, opposition to Israel's existence was actually an expression of anti-Semitism.  So it may not be fully accurate today that opposition to Israeli policies reflects or expresses anti-Semitism, but heated topics like this draw that kind of comparison or labeling just on the historical precedent alone.

 

Good post.

What's interesting is watching support for the state of Israel going down among American jews.  I know quite a few who openly oppose Israel's policy on settlements, for example.  Israel purposefully being a provocateur and shitter on all things Palestinian doesn't sit well with them.  Because American jews have a strong identity of "shat upon minority, abused by nation states" (remember that American jews are almost entirely a product of diaspora), they have some real sympathies for a shat upon minority, abused by the nation state of Israel.

Yes, it's complicated, and yes, those same American jews are also opposed to islamic terrorism that would kill them just for being jews, but that doesn't take away from their perspective of right and wrong.

But have no fear.  Any loss of support from American jews is more than made up for with increased support by the Dominionist Christian eschatological batshit movement which actually has quite a few seats of power in American government.  Israel has plenty of friends.  Sure, some of those friends just want Israel around so it can fulfill their prophecy and be obliterated in the final battle between good and evil, but Israel isn't dumb -- they know that belief is batshit bullshit, and they are happy to exploit it for their advantage till the cows come home.

Israel didn't make it this far by being bad at politics.  They'll play whatever advantage is presented, and where more advantage is needed, they'll exploit the situation to expand it.  That's not all bad -- it's what nation states do.  We're just a willing sucker in the game.

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fakebusiness

fakebusiness 129

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12 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Think of Israel as a forward operating base against Russia and Middle East 

U.S.-Israeli security cooperation dates back to heights of the Cold War, when the Jewish state came to be seen in Washington as a bulwark against Soviet influence in the Middle East and a counter to Arab nationalism. Israel remains a counterweight against radical forces in the Middle East, including political Islam and violent extremism. It has also prevented the further proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in the region by thwarting Iraq and Syria's nuclear programs.

"..it earns America tremendous pain and increasingly dead Americans fighting wars that are not ours to fight"

This brief interview with a CIA analyst is spot-on. Also you didn't answer my question. Those are ways Israel benefits, not us. 

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fakebusiness

fakebusiness 129

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Still have yet to read what is our benefit. 

20 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

honestly, and this is my opinion, i think a lot of it has to do with the mossad. they don't play by the same rules as we do, and our rules are pretty fucking loosey goosey. i think there is plenty of valuable intelligence sharing that goes on.

i'm not saying it's worth it, necessarily, but since the foundation of israel, we have let them get away with worse than south africa domestic policy and some other shady shit, and that's a fairly bipartisan thing. something is visible to the powers that be that is not visible to us is my guess.

ERxMxn2j

They've literally attacked us, spied on us, and have had people in our state department commit epsionage for them. Could you imagine if [insert any other nation] had this much influence on our country? If you think Russian meddling was bad how do you feel about Israel & they're lobbying groups influence on our elections?

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45495

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12 minutes ago, fakebusiness said:

Still have yet to read what is our benefit. 

They've literally attacked us, spied on us, and have had people in our state department commit epsionage for them. Could you imagine if [insert any other nation] had this much influence on our country? If you think Russian meddling was bad how do you feel about Israel & they're lobbying groups influence on our elections?

Yep.  I'm as lost as you on this one.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9935

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12 minutes ago, fakebusiness said:

They've literally attacked us, spied on us, and have had people in our state department commit epsionage for them. Could you imagine if [insert any other nation] had this much influence on our country? If you think Russian meddling was bad how do you feel about Israel & they're lobbying groups influence on our elections?

Ahh . . . the real point of your post.

Don't forget Jewish lasers. 

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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25 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

Any Jews on this board?

I'm a quarter Sephardic, but it's on my mom's side...so they let me round up to 49.9%

As Admiral McRaven once told us, "There are a dozen reasons I can think of to stay so close to Israel.  But the real purpose of our relationship with Israel is because of those reasons I can't think of."  

 

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DonkeyCigars

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43 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

What's interesting is watching support for the state of Israel going down among American jews.  I know quite a few who openly oppose Israel's policy on settlements, for example.  Israel purposefully being a provocateur and shitter on all things Palestinian doesn't sit well with them.  Because American jews have a strong identity of "shat upon minority, abused by nation states" (remember that American jews are almost entirely a product of diaspora), they have some real sympathies for a shat upon minority, abused by the nation state of Israel.

This is an interesting data point and fact. Can you share your sources/citations so I can do some reading up about this?

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Dr. Teeth

Dr. Teeth 5832

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I think Bibi has been the main reason for the decline in American Jew approval. He has allowed Rs to throw out the antisemitism rhetoric any time someone questions the amount of support for Israel. But in America, actual antisemitism and hate crimes have increased by the same people who claim to want to support Israel. He has given conservatives and far-right groups cover to increase their hate in the US.

It is obvious to everyone why we support Israel, but they have effectively ended discussion about it and allowed to be even more hateful than before. I don't care if we continue to support Israel, but I do care about how we fucking treat our own people and I would rather force the discussion to improve the situation. I don't know if it will change, but at least we can cause the Israeli government to speak out against it. They cannot stay silent and allow the hypocrisy to be at their own people's expense. You motherfucker's want salvation, well treat Sholmo better.

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Brisketexan

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2 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

This is an interesting data point and fact. Can you share your sources/citations so I can do some reading up about this?

Sure -- here's a quick source: https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/80-percent-of-us-jews-say-they-are-pro-israel-study-finds-616479

While American jews are still largely in favor of Israel as a nation state, its continued existence, etc., support for Israel's policies has taken a huge hit.  

Quote

80% of US Jews say they are pro-Israel, study finds

Still, more than half of American Jews are critical of Israeli policy, with 39% saying that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s support for the US President made them feel less connected to Israel.

........

Although 80% identified as pro-Israel, more than half of American Jews, some 57%, identified as “pro-Israel but also critical of Israeli policy.”There was a split between those who are critical of “some” policies (28%) and those critical of “many” policies (29%).Less than a quarter (23%) are “pro-Israel and supportive of the current Israeli government policies.”

 

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DonkeyCigars

DonkeyCigars 144

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36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sure -- here's a quick source: https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/80-percent-of-us-jews-say-they-are-pro-israel-study-finds-616479

While American jews are still largely in favor of Israel as a nation state, its continued existence, etc., support for Israel's policies has taken a huge hit.  

 

Not exactly the same thing as "What's interesting is watching support for the state of Israel going down among American jews.", eh?

 

I was more curious as to YoY or similarly contrasted numbers that show the American Jews support of the state of Israel because THAT would be interesting.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 104624

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6 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Not exactly the same thing as "What's interesting is watching support for the state of Israel going down among American jews.", eh?

 

I was more curious as to YoY or similarly contrasted numbers that show the American Jews support of the state of Israel because THAT would be interesting.

sorry -- was sloppy in my summary language.  They aren't becoming "anti-Israel" -- they're becoming more "anti the shit that Israel pulls."  My bad for lazy framing.

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DonkeyCigars

DonkeyCigars 144

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Just now, Brisketexan said:

sorry -- was sloppy in my summary language.  They aren't becoming "anti-Israel" -- they're becoming more "anti the shit that Israel pulls."  My bad for lazy framing.

Gotcha. Yea that would have been VERY surprising to me. After you posted I just googled and saw a lot of claims:

I'll post this one because it makes this claim: Having sampled 2,500 Jews representing the adult Jewish population in the US, the survey “is the most comprehensive survey of the Jewish community in the United States in recent years, and one of the largest ever,” the statement said.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/rather-than-drifting-away-over-two-thirds-of-us-jews-feel-tie-to-israel-poll/

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 104624

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2 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

 

Gotcha. Yea that would have been VERY surprising to me. After you posted I just googled and saw a lot of claims:

I'll post this one because it makes this claim: Having sampled 2,500 Jews representing the adult Jewish population in the US, the survey “is the most comprehensive survey of the Jewish community in the United States in recent years, and one of the largest ever,” the statement said.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/rather-than-drifting-away-over-two-thirds-of-us-jews-feel-tie-to-israel-poll/

Yep, same poll.

"A majority of US Jews (57%) said they are “pro-Israel but also critical of Israeli policy.” Only 23% said they are pro-Israel and also supportive of the current government’s policies."

What that ultimately means remains to be decided, but my admittedly anecdotal experience with people who feel that way is that they support US "support" of Israel, meaning "existential support" -- mutual protection of Israel from enemies who would destroy it -- but they do NOT favor blind and blanket US support of all of Israel's actions and policies, particularly policies that reek of the very ethnic cleansing that jews are understandably wary of.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Good post.

What's interesting is watching support for the state of Israel going down among American jews.  I know quite a few who openly oppose Israel's policy on settlements, for example.  Israel purposefully being a provocateur and shitter on all things Palestinian doesn't sit well with them.  Because American jews have a strong identity of "shat upon minority, abused by nation states" (remember that American jews are almost entirely a product of diaspora), they have some real sympathies for a shat upon minority, abused by the nation state of Israel.

Yes, it's complicated, and yes, those same American jews are also opposed to islamic terrorism that would kill them just for being jews, but that doesn't take away from their perspective of right and wrong.

But have no fear.  Any loss of support from American jews is more than made up for with increased support by the Dominionist Christian eschatological batshit movement which actually has quite a few seats of power in American government.  Israel has plenty of friends.  Sure, some of those friends just want Israel around so it can fulfill their prophecy and be obliterated in the final battle between good and evil, but Israel isn't dumb -- they know that belief is batshit bullshit, and they are happy to exploit it for their advantage till the cows come home.

Israel didn't make it this far by being bad at politics.  They'll play whatever advantage is presented, and where more advantage is needed, they'll exploit the situation to expand it.  That's not all bad -- it's what nation states do.  We're just a willing sucker in the game.

Isn't the end times supposed to go pretty poorly for Israel. I get using Christians for short term gains, but what is Israel's plan for when evangelicals start to set up the final battle?

I guess the Dome of the Rock has to be destroyed first to set up the new temple. Israel has no desire to do that part either. So evangelical terrorists are probably gonna try to make that happen at some point too. 

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formermav43

formermav43 4599

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8 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Isn't the end times supposed to go pretty poorly for Israel. I get using Christians for short term gains, but what is Israel's plan for when evangelicals start to set up the final battle?

I guess the Dome of the Rock has to be destroyed first to set up the new temple. Israel has no desire to do that part either. So evangelical terrorists are probably gonna try to make that happen at some point too. 

Dispensationalists. "Evangelical" already has enough baggage of its own without painting all of them with that brush.

Edited by formermav43
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Js1

Js1 85110

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

sorry -- was sloppy in my summary language.  They aren't becoming "anti-Israel" -- they're becoming more "anti the shit that Israel pulls."  My bad for lazy framing.

I fall under this. I’m a Jewish American democrat who supports the existence of Israel but I think they’re overstepping with Palestine and Bibi is shit. 

The existence of the country is good for the Jewish people. Hell, I’ve been and it’s a fascinating country. But they need to learn to coexist with Palestine and stop blatantly encroaching with settlements and killing Palestinians. 

Edited by Js1
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Shady Ray

Shady Ray 1633

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14 hours ago, fakebusiness said:

I think you mean us fighting a war against Iran for them? 

 

 

Exactly this.

 

Israel will "fight until the last American is dead" as is common saying, at least here in Europe. Not the other way around. The fact that anyone thinks "they fight our wars for us" while we are balls deep in Syria, Iraq and very possibly Iran in the future is absurd.

 

We fight their wars now. We have since Bush the Younger. We allow them to violate international law regularly and then give them whatever military tech they haven't already lifted from us via espionage. We pardon their spies and we allow them to flout all relevant nuclear non-proliferation regulations while throwing hissy fits when their adversaries do the same. We give them billions while idiot American evangelicals think that the right to military superiority over their neighbors is literally is a divine right of theirs that we must ensure is continued.

 

Y'all remember when the Republican Party essentially allowed this complete piece of shit speak from the floor of our Congress and then applaud him while he spoke against Obama's (tepid) plans for Mid-East peace? 

 

"I know what America is.
America is something that can be easily moved to the right direction....they won't get in our way.
They won't get in our way.
So let's say they say something. So they say it! 80% of the Americans support us...it is absurd."

 

 

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Druggist

Druggist 303

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16 hours ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

I kicks the flavor, like Steven King writes horror
If I was a Jew then I'd light a menorah
I got rhymes for ya, excuse me senora
Are you a whore-a or are you a lady?
Is it Erica Boyer or Marcia Brady?

It was a good day when my 15 year old self found the video tape “A Taste of Erica” stashed away in my older brother’s room after he left for college.  

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