UT/other school recent grad salaries

[Hefeweizen 5308]

I had a graduate counter an offer by 20% higher.  That's new to me!  I chuckled and told him good luck.  We're in civil engineering, which has decent margins but a lot of our work is done on a multiplier basis so changing the cost structure like that would be very interesting.

 

Salaries are climbing regardless - we're going to bump most everyone by an average of 10% over the next year.

[TwiceHorn 31429]

On 4/19/2021 at 9:25 PM, Lobo said:

A friend of mine who mentors law school grads said (and yes, recent UT grads is not apples to apples with Texas Law).  But you other lawyers may be interested to know this...Latham & Watkins are planting their flag here in Austin (I know they have a substantial presence in Houston), but this is huge as they don't even have a roving partner covering Austin right now.  But they offered her for partnership track a really nice package that includes a bonus on biz dev.  I don't know how to read offers like that by my buddy tells me it's worth in 2022, about $240-$260k to her.  Sure, her life as she knows it is over for the next 5-10 years, but for the second largest law firm in the nation to handpick you to help jumpstart their Austin office, that's pretty damn special.  

 

What year lawyer is she?

Honestly, for an LA-based firm (meaning should have high comp based on COL) and being a "key" person, ostensibly, for a new office, that seems kind of low.  It's clear from your post that she's not partner-level, but still.  A firm like Latham opening a new office should be cherry-picking and compensating accordingly, especially if there are business development expectations (there always are, but new office lawyers often are at least implicitly expected to do more than established office lawyers).

One of the more interesting occurrences is when a biglaw firm acquires a much lower profile firm in a city to establish a new office.  Weil Gotshal did that in Texas in the 80s and it created some interesting dynamics.

I've lost all track of biglaw non-partner comp.  Whoever called people "type-A psychotic" in another context nailed it.

I have exactly one law school/undergrad/fraternity brother that I know well that has stuck at big law to this day.  I'm not sure I'd call him type-A psychotic, but he is smart and driven.  I know one other that has stuck his entire career at Baker Botts, but I only know him from high school, so I can't opine on him fully grown.

Edited October 7, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Guest Lobo]

I think she graduated right at ten years ago.  I'll find out.  He also said he thinks they're underpaying a bit as of Austin is some Texas town with dirt cheap cost-of-living, but said the offer is competitive with it gives her at partner level.  He's been out for 20 years and is still at "big law", he confides in me every third happy hour how unhappy he is, but he's the managing partner of the Austin office and secretly likes it I think.  

Anyway, since I typed that post you quoted, Latham has certainly planted their flag and is throwing sponsorship money around Austin like sailors on shore leave. I gotta go get me some of it.  My non-profits took a beating through Covid.

[TwiceHorn 31429]

16 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I think she graduated right at ten years ago.  I'll find out.  He also said he thinks they're underpaying a bit as of Austin is some Texas town with dirt cheap cost-of-living, but said the offer is competitive with it gives her at partner level.  He's been out for 20 years and is still at "big law", he confides in me every third happy hour how unhappy he is, but he's the managing partner of the Austin office and secretly likes it I think.  

Anyway, since I typed that post you quoted, Latham has certainly planted their flag and is throwing sponsorship money around Austin like sailors on shore leave. I gotta go get me some of it.  My non-profits took a beating through Covid.

Yeesh.  That seems low.  I'm reasonably certain most Latham partners are over seven figures and 10 years is partner level, whether on the track or not. Even non-partner track salaries are pretty generous at biglaw.  They pay big bucks to keep you out of profit-sharing and maintain leverage. 

It is somewhat unusual, surprisingly, for big city based firms to adjust their salaries based on cost-of-living.  That's why Texas firms had to match the 140-160k start some 15 years ago to compete with NYC, SF, and LA firms.

Austin, historically, has paid low for attorneys, because, historically, there were a lot fewer Austin jobs than lawyers wanting them, even highly qualified ones.  I have no idea how true that remains.

 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

On 3/24/2021 at 10:19 PM, Brew said:

Money is on a sliding scale, the more you make the more you spend. That goes by multiples for wives. 20 years ago I started at $27k in the accounting world. If I had started in the low 6 figures, I would probably be dead or unemployed at this point. I would have had a fun run, but my ass would have been in Vegas, at the beach, in the mountains, etc instead of working.

When I finished my master's of accounting in 2000, I had an offer to join a finance outfit for $45k a year.  I thought that was all the money in the world.  I went to law school instead and came out making, IIRC, $115k in 2003.  I was single, had no debt, and shared a very nice midtown Houston townhouse for $2k a month -- so all in my rent and utilities were maybe $1,500 a month.  I never even thought about money.  If someone suggested going out to dinner or going on a trip, we just did it.  And I was getting on a plane once a month to go somewhere for vacation.  Usually Colorado or California.

Being single and splitting rent/bills with someone means you don't have to make all that much.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeesh.  That seems low.  I'm reasonably certain most Latham partners are over seven figures and 10 years is partner level, whether on the track or not. Even non-partner track salaries are pretty generous at biglaw.  They pay big bucks to keep you out of profit-sharing and maintain leverage. 

It is somewhat unusual, surprisingly, for big city based firms to adjust their salaries based on cost-of-living.  That's why Texas firms had to match the 140-160k start some 15 years ago to compete with NYC, SF, and LA firms.

Austin, historically, has paid low for attorneys, because, historically, there were a lot fewer Austin jobs than lawyers wanting them, even highly qualified ones.  I have no idea how true that remains.

 

That is true about Austin.  I was top 10 percent of my class (pretty close to top 5%) and I interviewed on campus with all the Big Law Austin and big Austin firms.  I got offers from NY firms, LA firms, and basically every Dallas and Houston big law firm.  Not a single offer from Austin big law.  Basically, once they knew you were interviewing in Houston or Dallas, they would mark you off the list.  You had to go Austin or bust.

[yoladu 4090]

sheeet, I need to ask for a raise.

[52-80 19140]

1 hour ago, yoladu said:

sheeet, I need to ask for a raise.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/10/04/magazine/indra-nooyi-interview.html

Pepsi CEO Indra Nooyi: I never asked my board to give me more money. Some of my reports would say to me, “Your problem is you’re not asking for more money because our compensation is pegged to yours and you’re not asking for more.” I said: “I will never ask my board for more money. Whatever they give me is much more than I would have ever had.

I’ve never, ever, ever asked for a raise. I find it cringeworthy. I cannot imagine working for somebody and saying my pay is not enough.

 

 

LMAO

 

[TwiceHorn 31429]

17 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

That is true about Austin.  I was top 10 percent of my class (pretty close to top 5%) and I interviewed on campus with all the Big Law Austin and big Austin firms.  I got offers from NY firms, LA firms, and basically every Dallas and Houston big law firm.  Not a single offer from Austin big law.  Basically, once they knew you were interviewing in Houston or Dallas, they would mark you off the list.  You had to go Austin or bust.

The business climate in Austin has changed and the legal climate along with it.  The Austin offices of biglaw are bigger than they've ever been, and there are more national and international firms with a presence.  So I think there are, relatively speaking, a lot more lawdog jobs in Austin than in the past, and in a lot more legal areas than state government affairs, than ever before.

Still, I imagine that the firms all have a lot of applications.  Hell, people in Dallas and Houston offices still angle and lobby hard to get to the Austin office.

[yoladu 4090]

18 hours ago, 52-80 said:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/10/04/magazine/indra-nooyi-interview.html

Pepsi CEO Indra Nooyi: I never asked my board to give me more money. Some of my reports would say to me, “Your problem is you’re not asking for more money because our compensation is pegged to yours and you’re not asking for more.” I said: “I will never ask my board for more money. Whatever they give me is much more than I would have ever had.

I’ve never, ever, ever asked for a raise. I find it cringeworthy. I cannot imagine working for somebody and saying my pay is not enough.

 

 

LMAO

 

----

Edited October 8, 2021 by yoladu

[HRSchenker 2268]

Salaries are dropping in health care. When I graduated pharmacy school I pretty much had offers from every big company in Texas except for HEB (no locations in DFW at the time) and CVS (fuck em). Highest salary offered to me was $130k but that was nearly 10 years ago. Today's grads are being offered close to $110k. Hospital systems are requiring something called "residencies" which are similar to physician residencies but are clinically focused for pharmacy. Resident pay usually averages around $40-50k per year. My wife did one and was paid $42k. After residency she got a clinical job at around $90k. The real money for hospitals is in management rather than actual boots on the ground work. 

[bluto 4912]

Geez that’s a shit salary given the schooling/requirements for that and what seems like limited career growth these days. What is the path for a generic pharmacist anyhow, ‘hanging a shingle’ seems impossible/foolish. Do they just grind their way up the management food chain?

[Updawg 2266]

More hospital fat. This system is so messed up

[Updawg 2266]

More hospital fat. This system is so messed up

No cr

[gmr548 16575]

On 10/11/2021 at 11:41 AM, HRSchenker said:

Salaries are dropping in health care. When I graduated pharmacy school I pretty much had offers from every big company in Texas except for HEB (no locations in DFW at the time) and CVS (fuck em). Highest salary offered to me was $130k but that was nearly 10 years ago. Today's grads are being offered close to $110k. Hospital systems are requiring something called "residencies" which are similar to physician residencies but are clinically focused for pharmacy. Resident pay usually averages around $40-50k per year. My wife did one and was paid $42k. After residency she got a clinical job at around $90k. The real money for hospitals is in management rather than actual boots on the ground work. 

I have an acquaintance who is a recent-ish pharmacy grad (age ~30) tell me the same thing. He attributed it to a mix of a glut of pharm school graduates and older folks staying in the workforce. Hadn't heard about the residency bit.

I'm not necessarily shedding a tear - $100k plus in a job with the predictable schedule and work-life balance of pharmacy is a pretty good gig. But it was interesting to hear. If the bit about older folks is true, I imagine the climate improves as boomers retire. 

[Guest Lobo]

^

Yeah, I didn't realize the backlog on pharmacy jobs was so extreme and getting worse.  Enrollment in pharmacy schools is way up, but it's like the law school glut of 20 years ago with just not enough great paying jobs given the debt load you take on.  UT just addressed this, brought in a new Dean from the back East.  He is by many reports recognized as this thought leader in how to guide more Pharmacy students into paths/tracks for research labs, working for Big Pharma, international work, etc. Stuff that used to make for interesting electives now needs to be at the core of the education.  I dunno, he explained it well but I didn't understand it.  

There's a fascinating trend in private capital (been going on for about ten years+).  Where these legacy practices in certain health care specialities like Optometry, Dental, mom 'n pop pharmacy, and veterinarians.  The older owner wants to retire and pass it along to a younger practicioner.  Time was, they groomed one of their several children to take over one day.  But maybe now they only have two kids and one moved away somewhere cooler to practice and the one still in town went to college for something different.  So they want to sell not only their "book of business"...all those clients/patients they've seen for decades...but also there's a predictable income stream from the retail side of the operation (eyeglass frames, whitening kits, prescription refill margins, dog and cat grooming stuff, etc.).  So a recent graduate isn't gonna get approved for a loan that size, so predatory equity and/or credit comes to the rescue.  They buy in to a predictable model, aggregate a few of these practices to get some economies of scale., the regulatory environment is a challenge but nothing like hospitals/physicians.   They pay their preferred return and grow the practice.  And go back to that well for expansion down the road.  Anyway, nothing terribly inventive about it...it was just demographics.  Lotsa old pharmacists and eye doctors retiring in the coming years and not enough kids to pass the practice on down too.  Happening in record numbers.  

[bluto 4912]

I have an acquaintance who is a recent-ish pharmacy grad (age ~30) tell me the same thing. He attributed it to a mix of a glut of pharm school graduates and older folks staying in the workforce. Hadn't heard about the residency bit.
I'm not necessarily shedding a tear - $100k plus in a job with the predictable schedule and work-life balance of pharmacy is a pretty good gig. But it was interesting to hear. If the bit about older folks is true, I imagine the climate improves as boomers retire. 

Idk that your standard retail pharmacist would agree with your rose colored view of their job/industry, every one I’ve known regretted it. And 100k salary for ~7 yrs of schooling is a very very poor return.

[Wulaw Horn 19063]

On 3/30/2021 at 2:25 PM, TechTech said:

I giggle at all these people who end up paying and spending time for graduate degrees or speciality degrees. Go into sales with something high margin and you will make a fuck ton more money with less years and less opportunity cost missed on. Start work at 22 and make 6+ figs at 25 with no debt. Thats 20+ years of saving with that salary. You have doctors who dont have a real job until 30 with 250k in debt. Why would you do that and have to work until 70? I guess that is the consumerism mindset. 

Yeah. Lot of truth here. . Sales is a great way to go- especially professional services. Way more lucrative than 95% of my law school peers at a top 20 law school. 
I think 5 years in having started up my own title shop I had out earned 100% of my graduating class. Some of my classmates made partner, obviously, and are probably pulling down 500k-1 million now that  we are in our 40’s, but man- the kids that keep their eye on the prize and can grind in professional sales will out earn most of the world. 
That’s not to say, obviously it’s the only smart course, or smarter than a bunch of other things you can do to make a good living,  it a really good salesman will always bank. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Wulaw Horn

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

I made $875,000 last year and spent it all on NFTs. 

[Parliament 14224]

I made $875,000 last year selling NFTs.

[Guest Lobo]

Were these NFT's little tiny classified ads, by any chance? 

[troph 24781]

On 3/30/2021 at 4:48 PM, TechTech said:

Go to work at 22 for a publicly traded SaaS company as a BDR or "pre sales" making 60-70k per year. Bust it for a couple of years. Get promoted in inside sales by 25 starting salary of 105k. No time spent chasing degrees. No time spent wasting experience in school. Earn money quicker, people dont understand the time value of money. The 60-70k you would put away over your twenties will be worth 2x-3x more than those that put away money from 30-40 even as doctors. Not to mention doctors and lawyers etc end up with 100k+ in debt in their late 20s. SO not being able to save until 30-35 plus puts you so far behind the curve. For what? Schooling is becoming a borderline scam. Get into the market as early as possible and start making money. Invest it. 

You sound really young.  Lineal career and savings plans are awesome for some. But the real money is in risk, and my ability to take it and protect against its downside was learned working for a top 15 law firm doing M&A work from the lowest level of due diligence to running the team and observing all the business folks do their part too. I couldn’t have done any of that without going to grad/law school. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by troph

[troph 24781]

On 10/19/2021 at 9:43 PM, Lobo said:

Were these NFT's little tiny classified ads, by any chance? 

Poor guy killed himself. 

[Guest Lobo]

Maybe the other famous American real estate fraudster will us all the same courtesy?  

[troph 24781]

On 10/7/2021 at 6:53 AM, TwiceHorn said:

What year lawyer is she?

Honestly, for an LA-based firm (meaning should have high comp based on COL) and being a "key" person, ostensibly, for a new office, that seems kind of low.  It's clear from your post that she's not partner-level, but still.  A firm like Latham opening a new office should be cherry-picking and compensating accordingly, especially if there are business development expectations (there always are, but new office lawyers often are at least implicitly expected to do more than established office lawyers).

One of the more interesting occurrences is when a biglaw firm acquires a much lower profile firm in a city to establish a new office.  Weil Gotshal did that in Texas in the 80s and it created some interesting dynamics.

I've lost all track of biglaw non-partner comp.  Whoever called people "type-A psychotic" in another context nailed it.

I have exactly one law school/undergrad/fraternity brother that I know well that has stuck at big law to this day.  I'm not sure I'd call him type-A psychotic, but he is smart and driven.  I know one other that has stuck his entire career at Baker Botts, but I only know him from high school, so I can't opine on him fully grown.

I don’t know how they do it, most lawyers in or approaching their 50s that I know are miserable. I’m not sure I’ll ever get completely out of it the immediacy of the income is too good, but like hell I’m going to grind it out for 20 more years. I had the suspicion at 30 that lawyering was a gig that would wear you out by 55.  Seems true. Thankfully - after spits and starts and some wins and losses in my 30s - I have a knack for business and owning them at that. 

[troph 24781]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

Maybe the other famous American real estate fraudster will us all the same courtesy?  

Pretty please? I hear a massive coronary isn’t a bad way to go all things considered. 

[troph 24781]

Back the topic though - I really struggle with the undergrad equation for my kids absent a top tier school and a desired career that requires it. Current thinking is some community college, bang out a degree from a regional university, with some business classes then start a business to learn some fundamentals and then move up into investing, managing and selling with me. The alternative path is the career path, but cost of undergrad for a $70k job seems a little out of whack. Kids can do what they want that’s the real equation but the value proposition seems to be failing at least for me.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

Back the topic though - I really struggle with the undergrad equation for my kids absent a top tier school and a desired career that requires it. Current thinking is some community college, bang out a degree from a regional university, with some business classes then start a business to learn some fundamentals and then move up into investing, managing and selling with me. The alternative path is the career path, but cost of undergrad for a $70k job seems a little out of whack. Kids can do what they want that’s the real equation but the value proposition seems to be failing at least for me.

Ivy League and Little Ivies are no brainer good ideas.

If $200k, in the grand scheme of things, isn’t a big deal, it’s a no brainer (IMO) to send the kid to UT or A&M or TCU or wherever you live near and are culturally aligned for a) the network/social b) the experience and c) the lifelong check mark of having gone to a culturally or regionally recognized school for any professional formalities as we aren’t at a place in society where not having a 4 year mouth breathing degree is a mere luxury or seen as superlative yet (if ever?).

This is how I’m thinking about it at least as my kids barrel towards college age.

[gmr548 16575]

8 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

it’s a no brainer (IMO) to send the kid to A&M or TCU

[fattyflattie 4639]

5 hours ago, gmr548 said:

No shit. 200k for an aggy degree? Nah bruh.  Might want to think on that one. 

[TheFlyingBoat 906]

19 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Ivy League and Little Ivies are no brainer good ideas.

If $200k, in the grand scheme of things, isn’t a big deal, it’s a no brainer (IMO) to send the kid to UT or A&M or TCU or wherever you live near and are culturally aligned for a) the network/social b) the experience and c) the lifelong check mark of having gone to a culturally or regionally recognized school for any professional formalities as we aren’t at a place in society where not having a 4 year mouth breathing degree is a mere luxury or seen as superlative yet (if ever?).

This is how I’m thinking about it at least as my kids barrel towards college age.

TCU? Def not worth it imo. UT is for sure. Texas A&M is probably worth it if you're doing engineering and got rejected from UT. Imo the best heuristic is top Ivy/top Ivy adjacent private (and I mean actually top Ivy adjacent a la Stanford, Duke, MIT, or Johns Hopkins and not Georgetown (unless you're an SFSer I guess), Wake Forest, Case Western etc.) or public flagship university for your area or community college->cheap regional school. The fact of the matter is you can get a really, really good education at community college and at regional schools for like <10k a year in tuition. Unless the name is so good in your region or nationally while still being affordable (state flagship) or elite enough that price is irrelevant (HYMPS type schools), I just don't see a reason to not go to community college and then transfer to a good public school for your final two years.

[troph 24781]

2 hours ago, TheFlyingBoat said:

TCU? Def not worth it imo. UT is for sure. Texas A&M is probably worth it if you're doing engineering and got rejected from UT. Imo the best heuristic is top Ivy/top Ivy adjacent private (and I mean actually top Ivy adjacent a la Stanford, Duke, MIT, or Johns Hopkins and not Georgetown (unless you're an SFSer I guess), Wake Forest, Case Western etc.) or public flagship university for your area or community college->cheap regional school. The fact of the matter is you can get a really, really good education at community college and at regional schools for like <10k a year in tuition. Unless the name is so good in your region or nationally while still being affordable (state flagship) or elite enough that price is irrelevant (HYMPS type schools), I just don't see a reason to not go to community college and then transfer to a good public school for your final two years.

This is what I did ACC to UT. All in with undergrad and law school (baylor) I left with only $50k in loans. Different time and place but then it was $100k folks were graduating with in debt. I’m having a really hard time seeing the value of expensive degrees absent the high rep schools. We aren’t likely to even try for them. 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

11 hours ago, TheFlyingBoat said:

TCU? Def not worth it imo. UT is for sure. Texas A&M is probably worth it if you're doing engineering and got rejected from UT. Imo the best heuristic is top Ivy/top Ivy adjacent private (and I mean actually top Ivy adjacent a la Stanford, Duke, MIT, or Johns Hopkins and not Georgetown (unless you're an SFSer I guess), Wake Forest, Case Western etc.) or public flagship university for your area or community college->cheap regional school. The fact of the matter is you can get a really, really good education at community college and at regional schools for like <10k a year in tuition. Unless the name is so good in your region or nationally while still being affordable (state flagship) or elite enough that price is irrelevant (HYMPS type schools), I just don't see a reason to not go to community college and then transfer to a good public school for your final two years.

My point is, if in the grand scheme of things $200k isn't a lot of money and it's all relative, then an investment to a recognizable school if for no other reason than the experience and check-box degree, is a fine time and worth it. YMMV

[DonkeyCigars 144]

To troph's point and many others, it seems a lot of folks are thinking alike:

Quote

 

More than 500,000 fewer students enrolled in college in 2020 compared to 2019, about a 3% drop, and an additional half-million are expected to have torn up their applications this year, according to preliminary data. That would be the biggest two-year enrollment decline in over 50 years, according to the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center.

It's not the Harvards of the world that are hurting for students:

10% fewer students enrolled in community colleges—which have more low-income students and students of color than four-year schools—in 2020 vs. 2019, and community college enrollment is projected to have dropped another 5.6% this fall.

That bucks the typical trend: Normally when the economy is doing poorly, all enrollment, but especially community college enrollment, rises as people skip out on the job market to level up their education.

Zoom out: Undergraduate and graduate enrollment has been sliding since 2012, but fell off a cliff when the pandemic kicked everyone off campus last year. Fewer students enrolling now = fewer grads seeking higher-paying jobs later.

 

 

[fattyflattie 4639]

I know at least two people who swung for the fences for their Masters this last year.  Apparently some of the elite schools were having enrollment decline and having to dip on their typical standards. Worked for one of them, assuming it didn’t for the other because I never heard any more about it. 

[troph 24781]

Losing out on a higher paying job? Maybe but it’s not without different and possibly even more lucrative opportunities. It’s not closing the door to college it’s just refusing to accept the premise that a $100k degree is mandatory. Maybe it’s not.  

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 hour ago, troph said:

Losing out on a higher paying job? Maybe but it’s not without different and possibly even more lucrative opportunities. It’s not closing the door to college it’s just refusing to accept the premise that a $100k degree is mandatory. Maybe it’s not.  

In the same way that it's never been mandatory for the right person or persons with the right attributes (smart, creative, curious, innovative, resilient, etc.). For the average Joe Sixpack of below average to average intelligence like myself and most of America, it's a worthwhile investment as a heuristic to signal a virtue to the rest of society (e.g. employers, peers, etc.)

[troph 24781]

51 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

In the same way that it's never been mandatory for the right person or persons with the right attributes (smart, creative, curious, innovative, resilient, etc.). For the average Joe Sixpack of below average to average intelligence like myself and most of America, it's a worthwhile investment as a heuristic to signal a virtue to the rest of society (e.g. employers, peers, etc.)

I’m not arguing against the 4 year degree, I expect all three of my kids to graduate from a 4 year university.  I’m arguing the value of say TCU, Baylor, Other private school, out of state public (none top tier) versus 2 years ACC and last 2 at a UTSA or Texas State. To me it’s the piece of paper not the institution unless it’s premier. Put another way minimize cost unless it’s one of the top schools.

Edited October 28, 2021 by troph

[DonkeyCigars 144]

8 hours ago, troph said:

I’m not arguing against the 4 year degree, I expect all three of my kids to graduate from a 4 year university.  I’m arguing the value of say TCU, Baylor, Other private school, out of state public (none top tier) versus 2 years ACC and last 2 at a UTSA or Texas State. To me it’s the piece of paper not the institution unless it’s premier. Put another way minimize cost unless it’s one of the top schools.

Gotcha. Mileage obviously varies, but I see way more soft value in a college experience for my kids at a place like TCU or SMU or Tulane than having them live at home and work the drive-thru while hammering out basics.

Maybe it’s changed and I’m archaic but college is more than just what is learned in the auditorium lecture halls, to me.

I have multiple degrees and still the most valuable connections come from the undergrad connections and fraternity brothers and others connected with; multiple jobs that got me in through the back door that way, multiple deals done and at least one start up was done through those relationships.

In the grand scheme of things it is a better investment is my thesis, but I also have paid for private school K4-12th grade, so my POV may be skewed in that I’m used to education costs being budgeted and accounted as an overall investment in experience and social and culture and not just rote education.

[52-80 19140]

13 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

To troph's point and many others, it seems a lot of folks are thinking alike:

 

Maybe the drop in traditional higher education enrollment is due to the growth of IT jobs with lower barrier to entry, and where diplomas can more easily be substituted with practical certificates and demonstrable skills. 

Speaking of which, Skillshare is a great platform where one can learn practical IT skills such as programming, network architecture, or computing topology.  These and many other fun courses are available at Skillshare.  For example, I spent 3 weekends learning how to create my own cryptocurrency, and now own 1/4th of Surlycoins, worth 25 million dollars in market cap.  To join your next 5 Skillshare courses for free, just got to skillshare.com and use the code "5280", that's fifty-two, eighty.

[troph 24781]

1 hour ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Gotcha. Mileage obviously varies, but I see way more soft value in a college experience for my kids at a place like TCU or SMU or Tulane than having them live at home and work the drive-thru while hammering out basics.

Maybe it’s changed and I’m archaic but college is more than just what is learned in the auditorium lecture halls, to me.

I have multiple degrees and still the most valuable connections come from the undergrad connections and fraternity brothers and others connected with; multiple jobs that got me in through the back door that way, multiple deals done and at least one start up was done through those relationships.

In the grand scheme of things it is a better investment is my thesis, but I also have paid for private school K4-12th grade, so my POV may be skewed in that I’m used to education costs being budgeted and accounted as an overall investment in experience and social and culture and not just rote education.

Fair points. I did not make those connections in college  but also think I have a lot of ability to help my kids get somewhere if they don’t make them in college either. I didn’t do the Greek thing, and really only buckled down and got it done. My connections came from my first job out of law school.  I do think it’s important to make them at some point early on, I probably made them near the close of that early window.  I see a lot of folks without a network at 50 and they are just fucked when shit goes south on them.

Edited October 28, 2021 by troph

[RDCanecutter 26376]

On 10/19/2021 at 8:43 PM, Hank Scorpio said:

I made $875,000 last year and spent it all on NFTs. 

I spent $875,000 creating NFTs, but at least I didn't go to Law School.

[victory88 5663]

I made $0 last year …

On a side note, I feel like more kids are going to look at alternative options.  I just hired a new grad hygienist at $45 an hour.  For a 2 year degree out of high school….  She can’t do shit and I’m paying out my ass for her.  My wife with 2 degrees from UT started her career in the corporate word about 7 years ago at half that salary. 
 

Either salaries for undergraduate and graduate degrees are going to need to go up or people will not want to take on the debt for a shitty ROI.  My wife quit her job a few months ago because it simply wasn’t worth slaving away 10-12 hour days.

I have a younger sister that got into Texas and got a full ride to UH.  I’m so happy she took the full ride.  Going to Texas is not worth 100k in debt…

If I have kids one day, I’m going to push them to go wherever they get the best financial aid.  If they end up being dumb and can’t get scholarships, then I’m going to push them to do a 2 year route at a community college for dirt cheap tuition and then transfer for the last 2 years.  They will save a ton of money.

Edited October 30, 2021 by victory88

[RDCanecutter 26376]

y'all oughta send your kids to the Tec de Monterrey. It's SACS accredited, has nice facilities behind a guarded wall with a parklike campus full of tame deer, and they will learn Spanish while dating other students who look like telenovela stars if telenovela stars did something all day other than scream and wreck sports cars. The classes will be comparable to any US state school, the tuition and expenses much lower, but it's expensive by Mexican standards so they'll network will all the future corrupt technocrats of our largest neighbor.

Or you could be the cool parent and send them to UNAM for much less and they become ganja-reeking commies. Which is what they'd do here, but they also get to see Mexico City.

[troph 24781]

In a similar line of thinking my ex wants us to consider European universities. 

[Shaggy3.0 1695]

On 10/28/2021 at 8:01 AM, 52-80 said:

Maybe the drop in traditional higher education enrollment is due to the growth of IT jobs with lower barrier to entry, and where diplomas can more easily be substituted with practical certificates and demonstrable skills.

This is true.  I hired a few East Coast devs for large internal IT projects.  Six devs lacked formal college education. But they made open source contributions (code merged to master) and built fairly complex "web apps" in middle/high school.  Two of my long-time hires are from Costa Rica--with no formal college either.  However they can customize the Linux kernel for client projects and complete other system-level requirements without issue.  

[pearlandhorn 3269]

52 minutes ago, troph said:

In a similar line of thinking my ex wants us to consider European universities. 

I've really never thought of this but you raise an interesting point.  Do you know of any tax consequences on 529 withdrawals to pay for international universities?

[Armybrat 40814]

On 10/30/2021 at 4:36 PM, RDCanecutter said:

y'all oughta send your kids to the Tec de Monterrey. It's SACS accredited, has nice facilities behind a guarded wall with a parklike campus full of tame deer, and they will learn Spanish while dating other students who look like telenovela stars if telenovela stars did something all day other than scream and wreck sports cars. The classes will be comparable to any US state school, the tuition and expenses much lower, but it's expensive by Mexican standards so they'll network will all the future corrupt technocrats of our largest neighbor.

Or you could be the cool parent and send them to UNAM for much less and they become ganja-reeking commies. Which is what they'd do here, but they also get to see Mexico City.

I second that about Tec, being an Ex-A-Tec myself.

Chingan los putos over at UNL.

 

[troph 24781]

2 hours ago, pearlandhorn said:

I've really never thought of this but you raise an interesting point.  Do you know of any tax consequences on 529 withdrawals to pay for international universities?

I do not. my oldest does not have the maturity to do it.  my middle son (8th grade), I'd send him in a heart beat.  My youngest is still to young to tell.  supposedly it can be much, much less expensive and if you think about the life experience... holy shit. I might not care about the 529 consequences.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13506]

On 10/27/2021 at 10:05 PM, troph said:

I’m not arguing against the 4 year degree, I expect all three of my kids to graduate from a 4 year university.  I’m arguing the value of say TCU, Baylor, Other private school, out of state public (none top tier) versus 2 years ACC and last 2 at a UTSA or Texas State. To me it’s the piece of paper not the institution unless it’s premier. Put another way minimize cost unless it’s one of the top schools.

Unless you're going to a top top school, I believe the undergrad school doesn't matter. Many schools, even UT, don't provide the value. I understand the school, students and parents want to think the value is there but it isn't.

Personally I've come to believe that my UT degree is of no extra value and I was there when it was really cheap. I guess it helped me to get my first job out of college and then no one, including me, ever cared about it again. I spent 5 years and a relatively a fair amount of money to have fun.