The Cowboy Church

[Johnny Sack 8397]

13 hours ago, deadshank said:

I’ve been to a few cowboy churches over the years.  I never had a problem with them.  Dogma was sound with  no craziness.  Mostly just country folks and some working hands there.  I was the city slicker and the congregants didn’t bat an eye.  
 

Like anywhere else, I’m sure you can find CC pastors that are enriching themselves.  That’s nothing new. 
 

Bernard and Brisket love their narratives. 

And their narratives are based on ignorance.

[Zepol87 9188]

2 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

So why is a Hispanic guy buddying up with racist assholes again? Seems counterintuitive. 

According to him it's just jokes and stuff you know. Also my family is a bunch of those GOP Mexicans they don't like free loading immigrants from Mexico at all, even though I was raised on free lunch, food stamps and a year of section 8 housing during elementary years. My dad also remarried when my brother was really little to a very big back the blue family who are full of shit hypocrites so he was raised in that shit. The back the blue family has one sheriffs deputy and the kids have all done prison time with multiple felonies.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

5 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

Fundamentalist/evangelical folks are as a demographic about the most hypocritical and judgmental people you can find. IMO, of course.
 

White liberals are as a demographic about the most hypocritical and judgmental people you can find. IMO, of course.  And annoying as fuck.

[Armybrat 40850]

How could you tell if a KKK member was blushing anyway?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

4 hours ago, Lobo said:

as with most things in religion and politics, follow the money.  They don't wanna pay property taxes?  Fine, but they're gonna have to open the books to show where the money goes.  If it kicks up to another church, just find out who.  

I would be fine with that.  But has to apply to all secular nonprofits as well to pass First Amendment muster.  They don't pay property taxes either.

[Guest Lobo]

Totally agree with you there, the lack of financial transparency with many 501c3/501c4 is beyond frustrating.  Especially those that are effectively "local chapters" of broader, national/international organizations.  And some of their tastes in real estate is...how you say...opulent?  

[JerrysJheriCurl 977]

2 hours ago, CHIEF said:

 

Also, no one here is keeping black people out. Our soil sucks for raising cotton. If you knew your history, you would also realize that's why the Hill Country has a very low Black demographic as well. No fields to work as slaves or later as sharecroppers.

CHIEF

I’m no historian, but you may want to talk to those multigenerational Tejanos and Austinites about this, my good man. 
This is what they call, a teachable moment.

There are many of the “old families” who lived in Hornsby Bend and other places near the city (Austin)who did plenty of sharecropping and picking cotton (fruits and vegetables too) “in the hill country.”

In short, we brown folk picked cotton and were also sharecroppers in the area. How do I know? My grandmother and her whole family did it. And they weren’t the only browns that moved from that land to La Loma, Hungry Hill, Govalle and Montopolis.

The African-American population may not have been large ...  maybe because we were doing most of that work back then my man. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by JerrysJheriCurl

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

You are treading real close to the notorious Obama comment that "they cling to their god and their guns."

I don't think they're stupid.  You do.  But I don't.  I think they know precisely what they're saying and the exact effect of what they believe.

When those who were around Jesus saw what was about to take place, they asked, “Lord, should we attack with our swords?”  Then one of them struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear.

But Jesus said, “No more of this!” So he touched the wounded man’s ear and healed him.

--Luke 22:49-51

 

Or perhaps you prefer the Book of Matthew:

But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

--Matthew 5:39

Jesus also gave them money and told them to arm themselves with a sword, IIRC.

[Gatorubet 30243]

Who interpret the bible is racists ways?

Now you’re just trolling. You can’t really be that ignorant.

[Captainant 27678]

7 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Now you’re just trolling. You can’t really be that ignorant.

I'm guessing he skipped history class lol...

[workswithseed 2112]

10 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Now you’re just trolling. You can’t really be that ignorant.

No, I'm just making fun of your sentence. 

[TwiceHorn 31488]

Whether you are racist or not is not really tested until some time is spent in relatively close proximity to minorities.

Which is why charges that the US is more racist than any other particular country are spurious.  A lot of other countries have never had their capacity for racism seriously tested and many that have have failed as miserably as the US.

[cactusflinthead 27598]

1 hour ago, workswithseed said:

Who interpret the bible is racists ways?

says the church was also a major contributor to racism today.

“If it had never endorsed the unrighteous system of slavery in America, if it never gave theological validation for it, if it never supported the social construct of it, then we would not have it, because it would have trained its people to infiltrate the culture with a righteous and just world view,” he said.

Who said this?

Venture a guess?

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

48 minutes ago, JerrysJheriCurl said:

I’m no historian, but you may want to talk to those multigenerational Tejanos and Austinites about this, my good man. 
This is what they call, a teachable moment.

There are many of the “old families” who lived in Hornsby Bend and other places near the city (Austin)who did plenty of sharecropping and picking cotton (fruits and vegetables too) “in the hill country.”

In short, we brown folk picked cotton and were also sharecroppers in the area. How do I know? My grandmother and her whole family did it. And they weren’t the only browns that moved from that land to La Loma, Hungry Hill, Govalle and Montopolis.

The African-American population may not have been large ...  maybe because we were doing most of that work back then my man. 

When white settlers first came, the Hill Country was covered in extremely rich and fertile soil. It was prime cottonland for five or ten years, but the earliest planters wore out the soil and the good stuff got depleted, dried up and blew away. It was explosively fertile but but very shallow. The semi-arid appearance of the Hill Country is relatively new, as, I think I recall, are the cedars; they replaced better trees that were all cut down in the 19th Century. 

That's what I remember from the first few chapters in Caro's LBJ biography. Boom and bust; LBJ grew up in the lean years. 

That was not the case farther north. 

I've got ancestors on both sides from in and around Hood County -- great grandmother on mom's side was a cowgirl from Mitchell's Bend, outside Granbury. Great-grandfather on dad's side was from a farm outside Meridian in Bosque County. Both of those families came there from states like Mississippi and Tennessee because they were fleeing Black rule -- and Black people in general -- during Reconstruction, and places like Hood and Bosque counties were settled too late to have ever been part of the slave economy. I've read that in my great-great-grandfather's own words. He hated slavery, and yet owned two slaves, and although he hated slavery, it wasn't out of love for his fellow man. He hated it because it kept poor white men like him down. By the 1820s-30s in the Old South, basically if you didn't inherit a plantation and/or a bunch of slaves, you were trash and there was almost nothing you could do to better yourself out of the illiterate sharecropper / overseer class. (Unless you were like his brother, who married an ugly-ass widow who had slaves and land. Our branch of the family got the last laugh though, because we came to Texas and his ass stayed back in Mississippi with his ugly wife.)

[Brian Fantana 6689]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Again, are you fucking kidding me?  The one on 306?  It's right next to the highway, and while there are trees.....it's not a goddamned wall.  It's an open and easily seen parking lot that's maybe 50 feet off the road.
Goddamn.  Are we really having an argument about how prevalent rebel flags are on rural drives?  WTF?

It’s not like I’ve been keeping a journal, but I did snap a pic of this display on 29 in Burnet coming back from a deer hunt. I snapped it because of the full spectacle, but the rebel flag is right out front:

 

EDIT -- also, it was on this trip that I realized that Bealls was still in business.  I really hadn't paid any attention to that.

I shit you not there is a house between Taylor and Cameron (if you go the back way through San Gabriel) that has about a 12-foot statue of Trump riding a horse carrying the American flag out in front, next to the road, still to this day. I always forget to take a picture of it but I damn sure will next time I drive by.

[Gatorubet 30243]

No, I'm just making fun of your sentence. 

It is well known that Tapatalk is the debbil

[workswithseed 2112]

50 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

says the church was also a major contributor to racism today.

“If it had never endorsed the unrighteous system of slavery in America, if it never gave theological validation for it, if it never supported the social construct of it, then we would not have it, because it would have trained its people to infiltrate the culture with a righteous and just world view,” he said.

Who said this?

Venture a guess?

Not gonna lie my joke answer was Bob Dagger, but an actual guess..... I don't know

[Ghost of LL 15531]

I shit you not there is a house between Taylor and Cameron (if you go the back way through San Gabriel) that has about a 12-foot statue of Trump riding a horse carrying the American flag out in front, next to the road, still to this day. I always forget to take a picture of it but I damn sure will next time I drive by.

There’s one guy on Highway 105 near Navasota who has two hay bales stacked like a snowman. He has it painted with a blue suit and a red tie with a MAGA hat. Of course, there are about three Trump flags.

Before January 6, there was a matching hay-bale Pence. But that’s gone now.

[Guest Lobo]

5 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Not gonna lie my joke answer was Bob Dagger, but an actual guess..... I don't know

Bob Dagger?  Did his parents also get to name Dick Lugar?  

[cactusflinthead 27598]

7 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Not gonna lie my joke answer was Bob Dagger, but an actual guess..... I don't know

Tony Evans

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/america-in-crisis/pastor-tony-evans-churches-played-a-role-in-racism-but-they-can-help-lead-to-solution

Edited February 11, 2021 by cactusflinthead

[workswithseed 2112]

2 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Bob Dagger?  Did his parents also get to name Dick Lugar?  

Fucking lol Bob Sagget fuck auto correct

[mchookem 16336]

5 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

I can't remember the last time I saw a rebel flag on a truck, maybe once every year or two? Yet here you are seeing multiple rebel flag stickers on trucks in parking lots of churches you don't even attend. Do you get bored on a Sunday morning and go out looking for something to be angry about?

You're so full of shit and you know it. Just own it and bow out of the thread.

I'm leaving as well because I have much better things to do than argue with you about whether or not your perceived enemies are actually justifiable enemies.

you obviously never go to Port A/Rockport beaches 

[Captainant 27678]

Just now, mchookem said:

you obviously never go to Port A/Rockport beaches 

Shit there's load of people with em on their boats and trucks in POC

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

7 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I shit you not there is a house between Taylor and Cameron (if you go the back way through San Gabriel) that has about a 12-foot statue of Trump riding a horse carrying the American flag out in front, next to the road, still to this day. I always forget to take a picture of it but I damn sure will next time I drive by.

If I lived closer, I would check that out.

[luke duke 6413]

So the best way to curb racism is limit the number of black people? Got it. 

Didn’t you know that the way to end hunger is to get rid of the hungry people?

[Gatorubet 30243]

Jesus also gave them money and told them to arm themselves with a sword, IIRC.

[Gatorubet 30243]

Woke Roomers easily surpass that, as evidenced by this thread.

[Ghost of LL 15531]

13 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Jesus also gave them money and told them to arm themselves with a sword, IIRC.

No, he didn't.  He told them to sell their shit and buy two swords.  But two swords would suffice.

Suffice for what?  Self-defense?  Two swords isn't enough to protect twelve guys.  It's enough to show that they are brigands and to ensure a violent reaction.  But it's not going to fight off the soldiers who come to arrest Jesus.  And that's especially the case when he tells Peter to put one of the swords down.

But it is enough to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah.  Which is Jesus' purposes there.

There's also the more metaphorical meaning of selling your things and (spiritually) arming oneself for the coming period after Jesus' death.  

But there really is no way to read that as a divine mandate to go out and buy weapons for self-defense.  And it's certainly not a divine mandate to go out and buy military-grade weapons to protect yourself from government tyranny (which I am continually reminded is the purpose of the Second Amendment).

[TriStone 1724]

There are some seriously miserable people in this thread.

[Guest Lobo]

13 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Whether you are racist or not is not really tested until some time is spent in relatively close proximity to minorities.

Which is why charges that the US is more racist than any other particular country are spurious.  A lot of other countries have never had their capacity for racism seriously tested and many that have have failed as miserably as the US.

This really is an elementary concept that is lost on both sides of the "racism" divide.  People who think they are not racist at all sometimes live in ethnic bubbles where their tolerance for people who are different is rarely tested.  Likewise people who are actually racist assholes derive much of that behavior from one or two isolated incidents instead of prolonged proximity and engagements.  While we have very divided demographic pockets in this nation, we are still far more diverse and interconnected than almost every other country on Earth.  Yeah, I know it's all white in Kansas 'n shit, but where most of our people live---it's quite diverse and getting more diverse and less racist by the year (save for a few assholes that made it temporarily popular again).  

Having said all that, who was it that said the most segregated hour in America was Sunday morning for Church?  

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

32 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

No, he didn't.  He told them to sell their shit and buy two swords.  But two swords would suffice.

Suffice for what?  Self-defense?  Two swords isn't enough to protect twelve guys.  It's enough to show that they are brigands and to ensure a violent reaction.  But it's not going to fight off the soldiers who come to arrest Jesus.  And that's especially the case when he tells Peter to put one of the swords down.

But it is enough to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah.  Which is Jesus' purposes there.

There's also the more metaphorical meaning of selling your things and (spiritually) arming oneself for the coming period after Jesus' death.  

But there really is no way to read that as a divine mandate to go out and buy weapons for self-defense.  And it's certainly not a divine mandate to go out and buy military-grade weapons to protect yourself from government tyranny (which I am continually reminded is the purpose of the Second Amendment).

Who said anything about mandate? The Lord didn’t mandate that we all buy toilet paper and or bidets, and yet it’s generally accepted that cleaning your own backside is both a good thing to do and not unscriptural.

By your interpretation the correct response to the church shootings that took place recently in Texas was to sit there and let the guy murder the congregation. Or at least not attempt to stop him. I’m sorry, but that’s poorly reasoned.

Turning the other cheek and not repaying evil for evil is largely metaphorical, and in addresses acts of vengeance. It does not mean that you can’t defend yourself physically if attacked. Self defense isn’t evil, and it isn’t an act of revenge.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Bobby_Batronic

[workswithseed 2112]

Should he not put a round in the gunman's head and instead just let himself and others be killed?

[Ghost of LL 15531]

14 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

By your interpretation the correct response to the church shootings that took place recently in Texas was to sit there and let the guy murder the congregation. Or at least not attempt to stop him. I’m sorry, but that’s poorly reasoned.

You're putting the value of this live over the value of the next.  It reflects that your concerns are purely of this world, and have nothing to do with His Kingdom.

You can call it "poorly reasoned" if you wish.  But a skepticism of self-defense has been the general thought of the Christian Church since its foundation.  Accepting martyrdom without violent resistance is written about in the Gospels (John the Baptist) and in the Book of Acts (St. James, St. Stephen).  

If you opt not to accept martyrdom, then that's fine with me.  But don't tell me that your refusal to accept martyrdom is consistent with your Christian faith.  It reflects a weakness in your faith.*

 

*By the way--that should not be taken as an indictment.  We are all weak in our faith to greater or lesser degrees.  Even Jesus had a moment of weakness.  So I don't mean to accuse with that assessment.

[Kennythetiger 9388]

14 hours ago, Armybrat said:

How could you tell if a KKK member was blushing anyway?

[Al_4_ISU 12464]

I live in Iowa - the state that sent the most troops to the Union per capita - and I see rebel flag stickers on pickup trucks about once a month (you never saw it 10 years ago).

I don't buy for one second that a guy in rural Texas "never" sees them.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

57 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

You're putting the value of this live over the value of the next.  It reflects that your concerns are purely of this world, and have nothing to do with His Kingdom.

You can call it "poorly reasoned" if you wish.  But a skepticism of self-defense has been the general thought of the Christian Church since its foundation.  Accepting martyrdom without violent resistance is written about in the Gospels (John the Baptist) and in the Book of Acts (St. James, St. Stephen).  

If you opt not to accept martyrdom, then that's fine with me.  But don't tell me that your refusal to accept martyrdom is consistent with your Christian faith.  It reflects a weakness in your faith.*

 

*By the way--that should not be taken as an indictment.  We are all weak in our faith to greater or lesser degrees.  Even Jesus had a moment of weakness.  So I don't mean to accuse with that assessment.

I ain’t mad at you. I just think you’ve got some scripture twisted. 

Self defense isn’t preventing martyrdom. Again, you have to squint pretty hard to view people allowing themselves to be murdered as they worship as martyrs. 

Defending your home and family against someone who may want to kill or injure you has nothing to do with dying for religious belief. 

Placing this life above the next by defending my own life or that others isn’t a sin. And even if it were it’s not an unforgivable sin. There’s only one of those, and I’ll happily take my chances before the Lord of hosts by saying that I was protecting the lives of myself and others if he levels that charge at me one day. I pray it’s something I never have to answer for in either life. 

[Hpara759 1778]

3 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I live in Iowa - the state that sent the most troops to the Union per capita - and I see rebel flag stickers on pickup trucks about once a month (you never saw it 10 years ago).

I don't buy for one second that a guy in rural Texas "never" sees them.

where Hwy 84 intersects I-20 right outside Roscoe Tx......it flies all the time

[Al_4_ISU 12464]

4 minutes ago, Hpara759 said:

where Hwy 84 intersects I-20 right outside Roscoe Tx......it flies all the time

No American flag.  No Texas flag.

I'll give them some historical props for using the actual flag of the CSA and not the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

[Ghost of LL 15531]

3 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I ain’t mad at you. I just think you’ve got some scripture twisted. 

Self defense isn’t preventing martyrdom. Again, you have to squint pretty hard to view people allowing themselves to be murdered as they worship as martyrs. 

Defending your home and family against someone who may want to kill or injure you has nothing to do with dying for religious belief. 

Placing this life above the next by defending my own life or that others isn’t a sin. And even if it were it’s not an unforgivable sin. There’s only one of those, and I’ll happily take my chances before the Lord of hosts by saying that I was protecting the lives of myself and others if he levels that charge at me one day. I pray it’s something I never have to answer for in either life. 

You were literally talking about Sutherland Springs--an instance in which people were targeted in church because of their Christian religion.  That's the definition of martyrdom.

Moreover, now you've just moved the goalposts from self-defense to defense of others.  And there's no theological support for that.  A shoddy defense-of-others claim has been at the root of every religion-motivated killing for the last 2,000 years ("We had to burn him at the stake; the peoples' souls needed to be protected from his heresy.")

All of which brings us back to the point of the cowboy churches.  It's part of the uniquely American heresy expressed across a variety of "evangelical" churches and denominations.  There's nothing particularly special about it from that standpoint.  I mean, it's theologically unsound and intellectually stupid.  But whatever.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

9 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I live in Iowa - the state that sent the most troops to the Union per capita - and I see rebel flag stickers on pickup trucks about once a month (you never saw it 10 years ago).

I don't buy for one second that a guy in rural Texas "never" sees them.

I don't see them that often, but most of my rural time in Texas is in South Texas.

There used to be a ranch near us that flew one -- in between Dilley and Batesville on 117.  He took it down years ago.  Or died/property sold.

I tell you where I did see a ton was when I took my kids to camp in Arkansas.  They were all over the place.  Had not seen that many in years.

 

[Pam Cummings 9644]

17 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Owning a gun for self defense is anti Christian? Guess that German Shepherd I own is also a tool of the devil. 

Horrible analogy. A dog is a companion, you don't pet/love your gun the same way.  Well most of us anyway.

 

No, i'm not anti gun, but his point is that the gun really only serves the one purpose.

[Bevo&Pevo 5170]

On 2/9/2021 at 5:34 PM, MaybeACoordinator said:

So what's the deal with that, anyway?

Is it just evangelicalism Texanized?

 

Damn son, you sure did stir up a hornet's nest.  

[Pam Cummings 9644]

15 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

White liberals are as a demographic about the most hypocritical and judgmental people you can find. IMO, of course.  And annoying as fuck.

I wish we could go back to a time where we could have fun making fun of liberal douchebags without having to commit fully to white nationalism.

[Al_4_ISU 12464]

18 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

I wish we could go back to a time where we could have fun making fun of liberal douchebags without having to commit fully to white nationalism.

I'm a white moderate liberal who finds the uber liberal woke warrior sect annoying as all hell, but like you said, I feel like if I give them too much shit I get lumped in with the Trump cult.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

46 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

You were literally talking about Sutherland Springs--an instance in which people were targeted in church because of their Christian religion.  That's the definition of martyrdom.

Moreover, now you've just moved the goalposts from self-defense to defense of others.  And there's no theological support for that.  A shoddy defense-of-others claim has been at the root of every religion-motivated killing for the last 2,000 years ("We had to burn him at the stake; the peoples' souls needed to be protected from his heresy.")

All of which brings us back to the point of the cowboy churches.  It's part of the uniquely American heresy expressed across a variety of "evangelical" churches and denominations.  There's nothing particularly special about it from that standpoint.  I mean, it's theologically unsound and intellectually stupid.  But whatever.

Actually, I was talking about the church in Ft Worth where the assailant killed 2-3 people before being killed by security. I believe the shooting you’re referring to was the one where 20 some of people were killed. 

Regardless, martyrdom would seem to require some intent and foreknowledge by the martyred. I.e., they know that their death and persecution are likely and or imminent by worshipping etc.  While a general level of persecution is certainly felt at any church I would submit that nearly 100% of worshipers attend without actual fear or certainty that that day’s actions would lead to their death because of Christ.  They didn’t die for Jesus any more than some private who dies in a car accident on base dies for his country. They died in the service but not of the service. 

The amount of whack jobs out there wanting to target congregations has increased to then point that many churches have taken steps to no longer present themselves as soft targets, but it’s a threat that’s out there in the ether rather than beating on the door. 

I didn’t move the goal posts regards to taking a life to save others. I was specifically thinking of defending my family in the case of a home invasion or something similar, but, yes, I would feel no guilt about taking the life of someone who started popping kids in the car line at a school or walked into a  Luby’s for the shooting buffet. 

You have stretched the field by suggesting that I’m talking about attacking others first just in case. Nope. I’m talking straight self defense homie. 

You’ve got some strange ideas about what’s heretical and go to great length to try and connect verses at odd angles to justify your position on self defense. We all do that to some extent, but that’s your cross to bear. I’ve never heard anyone at any church from very strict baptist to the new coffee, pop rock and Jesus affairs advocate for premeditated killing for self defense or call a more nominal definition of self defense murder. Even his popeness has a well trained and armed guard, and they’re certainly not offensive in nature. 

Ive never been to a cowboy church. The only one I can think of is off 45 near Huntsville I think. So I’m not trying to support anything they do. I don’t know what they do. Just having a back and forth about what caught me as a very strange interpretation of scripture to my eyes. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Who knew so many Surly libs visited Cowboy Churches and can espouse educated opinions on same?

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Pam Cummings said:

Horrible analogy. A dog is a companion, you don't pet/love your gun the same way.  Well most of us anyway.

 

No, i'm not anti gun, but his point is that the gun really only serves the one purpose.

Listen, I didn’t purchase my Shepherd because I wanted an excess of his hair everywhere. He is a faithful friend, great with my kids and spends a lot of time being a hairy speed bump around my house. But I also have no doubt that if he perceives a threat to his family that that speed bump would become a 110 lb hair missile with little remorse. His profile and growl alone have been beneficial more than a few times  

He has many fine attributes, but the prime one is home defense as I work on the road quite a bit. But if I just wanted a furry friend I could have bought something far more house friendly, cheaper to care for and to feed. 

His point has nothing to do with the gun btw. He believes that no killing is justified. I disagree, and find the scripture he references unconvincing and only somewhat relevant. He even in his heart of heart knows it as he has a gun to protect himself and family. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Bobby_Batronic

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

18 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Owning a gun for self defense is anti Christian? Guess that German Shepherd I own is also a tool of the devil. 

Depends. Is this it?

[Ghost of LL 15531]

 

28 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

His point has nothing to do with the gun btw. He believes that no killing is justified. I disagree, and find the scripture he references unconvincing and only somewhat relevant. He even in his heart of heart knows it as he has a gun to protect himself and family. 

I said in my very first post on this topic that I believe my gun ownership to be inconsistent with my Christian faith.  So you're hardly dunking on me.

I've also been very open about the fact that I'm a lousy Christian.  I know plenty about it--more, it seems, than you--I just don't happen to believe a lot of it.

But irrespective of what I believe, it's important to remember that this entire discussion started when @CHIEF wrote that the second-most-important thing to "evangelicals and fundamentalists" "is second amendment rights."  If it is so important to them in their identity as "evangelicals and fundamentalists," that must mean that there's some scriptural basis for their desire to own guns.  And there's just not.  

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

 

I said in my very first post on this topic that I believe my gun ownership to be inconsistent with my Christian faith.  So you're hardly dunking on me.

I've also been very open about the fact that I'm a lousy Christian.  I know plenty about it--more, it seems, than you--I just don't happen to believe a lot of it.

But irrespective of what I believe, it's important to remember that this entire discussion started when @CHIEF wrote that the second-most-important thing to "evangelicals and fundamentalists" "is second amendment rights."  If it is so important to them in their identity as "evangelicals and fundamentalists," that must mean that there's some scriptural basis for their desire to own guns.  And there's just not.  

Step back and consider that I’m not dunking on you or trying to dunk on you. I know this is the internet and in particular surlybevo, but not everything is an all out slap fight. 

Ive seen nothing to indicate a greater knowledge of Christianity than anyone here other than trying to fit scripture to your view of guns and killing. Again, we all do that to a degree, and we’re all of us (believers at least) truly lousy Christians. Even the ones who seem saintly. Such is the bar. 

Chief is imoho wildly incorrect about the things that he perceives as prime motivators for evangelicals. His personal accounts carry no more weight than mine, but I’ve never heard the second amendment brought up in church. Ever. 1st Amendment?  All the time. Abortion? If the sermon touches that subject. But more often than not it’s not mentioned in the service or in the prayer. 

Thats from coming from a pretty strict Baptist upbringing to dabbling in the six flags over Jesus operations. It’s usually just the topic of the day and salvation. 

I can see his viewpoint having more of toehold in a church with a strong western tilt, but would hardly call it predominant, and I wouldn’t see any great shift in allegiance if the left suddenly came around on those subjects. It’s runs deeper than that for most imoho.