The Cowboy Church

Bobby_Batronic · February 11, 2021

45 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Depends. Is this it?

Pretty close, except he only has a dollop of black on his face.

Mole · February 11, 2021

4 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

No, he didn't. He told them to sell their shit and buy two swords. But two swords would suffice.

Suffice for what? Self-defense? Two swords isn't enough to protect twelve guys. It's enough to show that they are brigands and to ensure a violent reaction. But it's not going to fight off the soldiers who come to arrest Jesus. And that's especially the case when he tells Peter to put one of the swords down.

But it is enough to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah. Which is Jesus' purposes there.

There's also the more metaphorical meaning of selling your things and (spiritually) arming oneself for the coming period after Jesus' death.

But there really is no way to read that as a divine mandate to go out and buy weapons for self-defense. And it's certainly not a divine mandate to go out and buy military-grade weapons to protect yourself from government tyranny (which I am continually reminded is the purpose of the Second Amendment).

I’m not disagreeing with your general sentiment, but I like precision when it comes to the words of Jesus. My reading of the passage, given below, is that he asks them to sell their cloak and buy swords (he doesn’t specify two), they tell him that they have two there already and he says, “that’s enough!”

It’s a pretty ambiguous passage,but I’d agree that it certainly isn’t a charge to go and arm ourselves. If that were the case, then I guess it would be also making the case against tactical gear while armed, right? Gun or coat, pick one.

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.

Ghost of LL · February 11, 2021

Just now, Mole said:

I’m not disagreeing with your general sentiment, but I like precision when it comes to the words of Jesus. My reading of the passage, given below, is that he asks them to sell their cloak and buy swords (he doesn’t specify two), they tell him that they have two there already and he says, “that’s enough!”

It’s a pretty ambiguous passage,but I’d agree that it certainly isn’t a charge to go and arm ourselves. If that were the case, then I guess it would be also making the case against tactical gear while armed, right? Gun or coat, pick one.

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.

And the point of it was that two swords wasn't going to do anything to protect him and his followers. But it was enough to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah. That was the purpose. It is certainly not, as @Johnny Sack would have it, a commandment to go out and buy a gun.

NotActuallyALonghorn · February 11, 2021

Almost two thousand years of mainstream theology has had no problem with self defense. Several prominent historical theologians have even hinted that one has a duty when it comes to the defense of others (such as your family) and that the death of the transgressor is due to their own actions. The only somewhat mainstream group to reject even self defense that I am aware of is the Quakers

Johnny Sack · February 11, 2021

8 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

And the point of it was that two swords wasn't going to do anything to protect him and his followers. But it was enough to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah. That was the purpose. It is certainly not, as @Johnny Sack would have it, a commandment to go out and buy a gun.

Nothing in the bible prohibits self defense.

Johnny Sack · February 11, 2021

4 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Almost two thousand years of mainstream theology has had no problem with self defense. Several prominent historical theologians have even hinted that one has a duty when it comes to the defense of others (such as your family) and that the death of the transgressor is due to their own actions. The only somewhat mainstream group to reject even self defense that I am aware of is the Quakers

sidis · February 11, 2021

this thread is amusing for a number of reasons and i can't believe i am actually posting on it but i am going to be the pedantic one on this back and forth re: 2nd amendment vis-a-vis whatever bullshit scriptural justification there may be or not be for it and simply point out...to the extent chief's post was the genesis of the discussion, i don't think he was making a point regarding cowboy churches or christianity in general and the second amendment. my read of his post was that he was making a more socio-political point about his perception as to why rural areas were "red" in their voting orientation and that the second amendment was the driving force behind that - because he believes that his community sees law enforcement as an impossible task given the lack of density...that if a gang of no-gooders were to impose risk to a rural person/family, that self-defense by gun was the only option. i did not interpret chief's post as relating in any way to theology or cowboy churches specifically, but a broader motivation point when it came to political affiliation for the rural population. here is his post:

On 2/9/2021 at 8:56 PM, CHIEF said:

What makes this rural county Red, isn't racism, it's bigger than that (while acknowledging it's still a national problem). It is all 2nd amendment. LEO can be at your door in 5-7 minutes, or less (an urban benefit, and why the voting result map looks like it does). It takes them 25-30 for me. Am I supposed to fight them hand-to-hand for 30 minutes till the cops get there? Might makes Right. The cops don't show up to protect you, they show up to take statements and send the loser to the morgue.

CHIEF

the conversation evolved from there in a different direction but this is surly, where a recruiting thread can be hijacked by cheese puns for days and a thread on rumors surrounding urban meyer becoming texas's coach ended up touching on everything from fast food burgers to the textile manufacturing for hotel supply chain so...

MaybeACoordinator · February 11, 2021

13 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

And the point of it was that two swords wasn't going to do anything to protect him and his followers. But it was enough to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah. That was the purpose. It is certainly not, as @Johnny Sack would have it, a commandment to go out and buy a gun.

Side note, as if this thread hasn't already gone far afield...

About 15 or so years ago we were at Easter dinner with my devout Catholic grandparents. My son was about six or so at the time, and was a natural born heathen. I never took him to church but did try a couple of times to read him stories from the Bible, just so he'd have the cultural references of shit like Jonah and the Whale and Daniel in the Lion's Den and so on. He just wasn't having them, even as a tired four-year-old. He'd yell about how fake they were, while somehow Harry Potter inspired no such responses. I occasionally like to listen to fiery Black preachers on AM radio and one time he was in the backseat while this pastor was roaring about how "Only GOD can save you in the dark of night, only GOD created the heaven and earth, only GOD is all powerful and mighty, only GOD...."

"Dad, he's lying!" MaC Jr piped up from his carseat. "ZEUS does all that stuff!" (Thanks Age of Empires computer game.)

Anyway, we are at my grandparents and I was trying to show them that I'd at least taught him the meaning of Easter.

"So MaC Jr., why are we here?"

"Because the Romans crucified Jesus on Good Friday," he said.

"And then what happened?"

"They took him down and put his body in a cave and rolled a big rock in front of the opening. Some Roman soldiers guarded it."

"That's right. And then what?"

(Getting very excited)

"Three days later, his friends went to the cave, and the rock had been rolled away, Jesus was gone, and all the Roman guards were dead!"

Facepalm.

Ghost of LL · February 11, 2021

6 minutes ago, sidis said:

this thread is amusing for a number of reasons and i can't believe i am actually posting on it but i am going to be the pedantic one on this back and forth re: 2nd amendment vis-a-vis whatever bullshit scriptural justification there may be or not be for it and simply point out...to the extent chief's post was the genesis of the discussion, i don't think he was making a point regarding cowboy churches or christianity in general and the second amendment. my read of his post was that he was making a more socio-political point about his perception as to why rural areas were "red" in their voting orientation and that the second amendment was the driving force behind that - because he believes that his community sees law enforcement as an impossible task given the lack of density...that if a gang of no-gooders were to impose risk to a rural person/family, that self-defense by gun was the only option. i did not interpret chief's post as relating in any way to theology or cowboy churches specifically, but a broader motivation point when it came to political affiliation for the rural population. here is his post:

the conversation evolved from there in a different direction but this is surly, where a recruiting thread can be hijacked by cheese puns for days and a thread on rumors surrounding urban meyer becoming texas's coach ended up touching on everything from fast food burgers to the textile manufacturing for hotel supply chain so...

You're looking at the wrong Chief post. What I was responding to--and what led to this diversion--was this post"

20 hours ago, CHIEF said:

I do agree with Brisket on one thing very strongly, that is, a Confederate Flag on a vehicle has no business being in a church parking lot. I find the sticker to be reprehensible. How can you, if you are truly a Child of Christ, justify having a sticker on your vehicle that stands for the subjugation of another Child of God, and basically rubs their nose in it. The ol' "it's not hate it's heritage" is complete and utter bullshit.

The number one thing, and by far the biggest, for evangelicals and fundamentalists is abortion. I haven't heard many prayers in the last several years that doesn't mention God please forgive our nation for the killing of the unborn, then they usually quote Jeremiah 1:5:

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

How do we know as Americans, and legalizing abortion, that someone special to God wasn't killed in the womb? That is the argument most of the fundamentalists use. They blame all of the bad things happening in America on killing the unborn.

Next is second amendment rights. Last is a continued erosion of our civil liberties, and the rise of the surveillance state. Never do I hear about keeping the oppressed oppressed, or keeping the White man on top.

If Joe Biden ran on a promise to stop abortion, and just keeping the second amendment he would have swept the evangelical/fundamentalist vote.

Also, no one here is keeping black people out. Our soil sucks for raising cotton. If you knew your history, you would also realize that's why the Hill Country has a very low Black demographic as well. No fields to work as slaves or later as sharecroppers.

CHIEF

NotActuallyALonghorn · February 11, 2021

Oh, and for the record, back in my younger days I dabbled in bull riding a bit. There was a cowboy church type event once a month where they had a little devotional type service and then free bull riding practice afterwards. You had to attend the service to ride (or try to ride). Every month they would have a jackpot bull, usually an actual rodeo competition/PBR bull, and if your name got drawn for it you could win $100. If you got bucked off, the pot rolled over to the next month. They drew my name one month and I went a whole 2.1 seconds before the bull kicked his back legs up what felt like danged near vertical and threw me over his head. Anyhow, I got introduced to whole thing through a black friend who was also into bull riding, and there were definitely other black cowboys there. I don't remember there ever being any sort of tension there.

sidis · February 11, 2021

42 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

You're looking at the wrong Chief post. What I was responding to--and what led to this diversion--was this post"

you're right. my bad. self-flagellation incoming.

NeverMarryAStripper · February 11, 2021

Support for 2nd Amendment rights, Evangelical Christianity, and Trump support all seem to share the same regionality. That does not mean there is any causality relationship. If you believe that there is, then you might me an antivaxxer

CHIEF · February 11, 2021

19 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Step back and consider that I’m not dunking on you or trying to dunk on you. I know this is the internet and in particular surlybevo, but not everything is an all out slap fight.

Ive seen nothing to indicate a greater knowledge of Christianity than anyone here other than trying to fit scripture to your view of guns and killing. Again, we all do that to a degree, and we’re all of us (believers at least) truly lousy Christians. Even the ones who seem saintly. Such is the bar.

Chief is imoho wildly incorrect about the things that he perceives as prime motivators for evangelicals. His personal accounts carry no more weight than mine, but I’ve never heard the second amendment brought up in church. Ever. 1st Amendment? All the time. Abortion? If the sermon touches that subject. But more often than not it’s not mentioned in the service or in the prayer.

Thats from coming from a pretty strict Baptist upbringing to dabbling in the six flags over Jesus operations. It’s usually just the topic of the day and salvation.

I can see his viewpoint having more of toehold in a church with a strong western tilt, but would hardly call it predominant, and I wouldn’t see any great shift in allegiance if the left suddenly came around on those subjects. It’s runs deeper than that for most imoho.

Sorry guys, I wasn't clear. I hear many prayers about abortion, not the congregational kind, but in prayer groups. My personal belief is that all forms of birth control, and Plan B tablets should be free. They work up to five days. You have five days, 120 hours to make a choice. After that no more being wishy-washy. Do it then, or don't.

BB, you are right I don't hear prayers about the second amendment, but I do hear prayers to preserve our Constitution and Bill of Rights. I hear outside conversation about avoiding becoming a Socialist Nation and a Godless Society. I don't do the CC, I don't even go to Church much (hey, I'm a lousy Christian too, just trying to get better). CHIEF Jr. is the only child, of an only child, if he were to be killed, or died for some reason, my lineage stops there. God, so loved the World he gave his only begotten son. I can't and I won't, I'm not God. Would I defend him? Damn right. I sure don't want anyone or anything telling me what I can use, or can't use.

As far as the erosion of our Civil Rights and surveillance state. That's just going to happen. It's part of the internet culture we now live in. Do people have the right to free speech, yeah. You aren't going to be put in prison for saying something. But the consequences for saying it can mean financial ruin from being crowd sourced. But I hear a lot of Red votes complain about it. Blues are vindictive about it. Reds just give you shit but don't tend to go that far.

CHIEF

Ghost of LL · February 11, 2021

6 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Do people have the right to free speech, yeah. You aren't going to be put in prison for saying something. But the consequences for saying it can mean financial ruin from being crowd sourced. But I hear a lot of Red votes complain about it. Blues are vindictive about it. Reds just give you shit but don't tend to go that far.

Al_4_ISU · February 11, 2021

11 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Yeah, but that's different. Cause reasons.

elguapo · February 11, 2021

22 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Do people have the right to free speech, yeah. You aren't going to be put in prison for saying something. But the consequences for saying it can mean financial ruin from being crowd sourced. But I hear a lot of Red votes complain about it. Blues are vindictive about it. Reds just give you shit but don't tend to go that far.

CHIEF

CHIEF · February 11, 2021

2 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

He went 8-8, 2-6, and 1-10 his last three seasons. He had season ending injuries his last two seasons, and was 28-30 as a Pro QB. He worked out for Carroll and the Seahawks the following year, but they already had an established QB. He demanded $20,000,000/yr. from the XFL to play QB. Maybe he just wasn't a good enough QB to meet his contract demands. Whatever happened with his lawsuit against the NFL owners, has it been settled, is it still in pre-trial? I honestly don't know.

CHIEF

Al_4_ISU · February 11, 2021

To me the biggest reason rural areas vote red and urban areas vote blue come back to a fairly simple schism:

In the city, people rely on each other and have to work together, sacrificing little bits of individual freedoms to make life easier for everyone. When you interact with the government, it's often in the form of a service being provided - transportation, parks & rec, police/ems/fire responding within several minutes. If you go around with a "fuck you I got mine" attitude in urban life, it's going to create a lot of headaches. Democrats (generally) orient the government towards providing these kind of services, and people aren't as concerned with staking every inch of personal liberty because it doesn't behoove them.

In the country, people have to be more individually reliant. You don't interact with other people or different people nearly as often. Most of your time is spent with a very tight circle of people who are pretty much exactly like you and have the same concerns you have. When you deal with the government it's usually some branch of the government telling you can't do something with a piece of property, or sending you a tax bill in the mail. The amount of government services that impact on you on a daily basis are simply fewer. Republicans (generally) orient the government to not providing services with the carrot of "you'll pay less taxes if we do nothing". The perception of liberty is everything to many people, but only liberty in ways that they want it, because the concerns of different people are a mere abstraction when you've never had any kind of extended and meaningful interaction with people who are different than you.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Al_4_ISU

Al_4_ISU · February 11, 2021

2 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

He went 8-8, 2-6, and 1-10 his last three seasons. He had season ending injuries his last two seasons, and was 28-30 as a Pro QB. He worked out for Carroll and the Seahawks the following year, but they already had an established QB. He demanded $20,000,000/yr. from the XFL to play QB. Maybe he just wasn't a good enough QB to meet his contract demands. Whatever happened with his lawsuit against the NFL owners, has it been settled, is it still in pre-trial? I honestly don't know.

CHIEF

You're moving the goal posts here. Kaep wasn't a good QB, but he was absolutely "canceled" by the right for his opinions. And that was the point of the post. The right is just as vindictive as the left about using cultural consequences to enforce the speech patterns they care about.

Ghost of LL · February 11, 2021

9 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

He went 8-8, 2-6, and 1-10 his last three seasons. He had season ending injuries his last two seasons, and was 28-30 as a Pro QB. He worked out for Carroll and the Seahawks the following year, but they already had an established QB. He demanded $20,000,000/yr. from the XFL to play QB. Maybe he just wasn't a good enough QB to meet his contract demands. Whatever happened with his lawsuit against the NFL owners, has it been settled, is it still in pre-trial? I honestly don't know.

CHIEF

So this is the hill on which you're going to die? The idea that conservatives don't cancel people/companies they don't like?

So we won't talk about Kathy Griffin? Or the Dixie Chicks? Or Bill Maher? Or Disney? Or, even this week, the Dallas Mavericks?

Fuck, man--I'm old enough to remember when Kirk Cameron got Julie McCullough fired from Growing Pains because she posed in Playboy. Mmmmm, Julie McCullough. Fuck you, Kirk Cameron--it doesn't cause me to shed any tears now that he finds himself canceled. It's a round world; what goes around comes around.

Poe It Up · February 11, 2021

I think I speak for other fellow conservatives when I say this: you’re welcome for canceling Kathy Griffin.

Neonmoon · February 11, 2021

22 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

To me the biggest reason rural areas vote red and urban areas vote blue come back to a fairly simple schism:

In the city, people rely on each other and have to work together, sacrificing little bits of individual freedoms to make life easier for everyone. When you interact with the government, it's often in the form of a service being provided - transportation, parks & rec, police/ems/fire responding within several minutes. If you go around with a "fuck you I got mine" attitude in urban life, it's going to create a lot of headaches. Democrats (generally) orient the government towards providing these kind of services, and people aren't as concerned with staking every inch of personal liberty because it doesn't behoove them.

In the country, people have to be more individually reliant. You don't interact with other people or different people nearly as often. Most of your time is spent with a very tight circle of people who are pretty much exactly like you and have the same concerns you have. When you deal with the government it's usually some branch of the government telling you can't do something with a piece of property, or sending you a tax bill in the mail. The amount of government services that impact on you on a daily basis are simply fewer. Republicans (generally) orient the government to not providing services with the carrot of "you'll pay less taxes if we do nothing". The perception of liberty is everything to many people, but only liberty in ways that they want it, because the concerns of different people are a mere abstraction when you've never had any kind of extended and meaningful interaction with people who are different than you.

CHIEF · February 11, 2021

8 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

So this is the hill on which you're going to die? The idea that conservatives don't cancel people/companies they don't like?

So we won't talk about Kathy Griffin? Or the Dixie Chicks? Or Bill Maher? Or Disney? Or, even this week, the Dallas Mavericks?

Fuck, man--I'm old enough to remember when Kirk Cameron got Julie McCullough fired from Growing Pains because she posed in Playboy. Mmmmm, Julie McCullough. Fuck you, Kirk Cameron--it doesn't cause me to shed any tears now that he finds himself canceled. It's a round world; what goes around comes around.

I'm not really talking about politicians, and celebrities. They both do it equally. But I have yet to see Reds go into a restaurant with a bullhorn yelling and shaming people over privilege, or skin color, or having the audacity to demand the business owner pay for protection, or they are gonna burn them out.

CHIEF

gyroprotagonist · February 11, 2021

2 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

And the point of it was that two swords wasn't going to do anything to protect him and his followers. But it was enough to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah. That was the purpose. It is certainly not, as @Johnny Sack would have it, a commandment to go out and buy a gun.

I just keep a jawbone of a donkey under the bed and let my hair grow out a bit. Between me and Samson we've killed over 1000 men with that thing.

I think Brisket jumped way offsides on this thing unprovoked. I took CHIEF's post to mean you did not have to be a shitkicker to partake. And i use shitkicker with the utmost respect having grown up raising cattle in a very small town (even though now I am an unrepentant librul commie). I think the thread started with general curiosity about the CC and then got surly'd .

WhatTheBuck · February 11, 2021

8 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I'm not really talking about politicians, and celebrities. They both do it equally. But I have yet to see Reds go into a restaurant with a bullhorn yelling and shaming people over privilege, or skin color, or having the audacity to demand the business owner pay for protection, or they are gonna burn them out.

CHIEF

They just murder doctors at abortion clinics or cheer for the people who do.

Ghost of LL · February 11, 2021

4 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I'm not really talking about politicians, and celebrities. They both do it equally. But I have yet to see Reds go into a restaurant with a bullhorn yelling and shaming people over privilege, or skin color, or having the audacity to demand the business owner pay for protection, or they are gonna burn them out.

CHIEF

Did you miss a quarter-century of conservatives freaking out at Disney over hosting Gay Day at Disneyland every year? Or for that matter the innumerable times gay bars were harassed and forced to close by conservatives?

I can't believe you're serious right now. You've got "conservatives" on Twitter right now saying that they'll cancel their Mavericks' season tickets over Cuban's decision not to play the national anthem. You can look back over the last four years and see "conservatives" swearing they won't watch a minute of the NFL because of players kneeling.

Oh, and since you want to talk about "burning them out," we can talk about what "conservatives" did to businesses that opened to both white and black customers.

I really can't fathom that this is the hill on which you want to die. It's a hill built of shredded Nikes, smashed Keurigs, and broken Yetis. But you do you, bro.

CHIEF · February 11, 2021

7 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Did you miss a quarter-century of conservatives freaking out at Disney over hosting Gay Day at Disneyland every year? Or for that matter the innumerable times gay bars were harassed and forced to close by conservatives?

I can't believe you're serious right now. You've got "conservatives" on Twitter right now saying that they'll cancel their Mavericks' season tickets over Cuban's decision not to play the national anthem. You can look back over the last four years and see "conservatives" swearing they won't watch a minute of the NFL because of players kneeling.

Oh, and since you want to talk about "burning them out," we can talk about what "conservatives" did to businesses that opened to both white and black customers.

I really can't fathom that this is the hill on which you want to die. It's a hill built of shredded Nikes, smashed Keurigs, and broken Yetis. But you do you, bro.

Let's use this as a hypothetical measurement of vindictiveness. Biden won, how many riots, and burning of businesses have we seen. What would have happened if Trump would have won? It's really very simple. It depends on what your definition of vindictiveness is. Is rioting not a more vindictive way to carry out your First Amendment right?

CHIEF

Edited February 11, 2021 by CHIEF

sidis · February 11, 2021

16 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I'm not really talking about politicians, and celebrities. They both do it equally. But I have yet to see Reds go into a restaurant with a bullhorn yelling and shaming people over privilege, or skin color, or having the audacity to demand the business owner pay for protection, or they are gonna burn them out.

CHIEF

do you ever see "the reds" go into capitols and try to burn the place down while murdering police officers and hunting the vice president of the united states in their efforts to cancel the results of an election? just curious. i think i saw a few bullhorns.

sidis · February 11, 2021

1 minute ago, CHIEF said:

Let's use this as a hypothetical measurement of vindictiveness. Biden won, how many riots, and burning of businesses have we seen. What would have happened if Trump would have won? It's really very simple. It depends on what your definition of vindictiveness is. Is rioting not a more vindictive way to carry out your First Amendment right?

CHIEF

ummm...

seriously?

what. the. fuck.

Ghost of LL · February 11, 2021

4 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Let's use this as a hypothetical measurement of vindictiveness. Biden won, how many riots, and burning of businesses have we seen. What would have happened if Trump would have won? It's really very simple. It depends on what your definition of vindictiveness is. Is rioting not a more vindictive way to carry out your First Amendment right?

CHIEF

CHIEF · February 11, 2021

2 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I'll concede that there are a quite a few idoits, and they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and I fully condemn their action. Isn't that what most of you on the board said about the riots? What the group, at the capital did was wrong. I don't sympathize with any of them, or have any sympathy for them. See, that was simple, but most Reds will only whine, and let it go.

I voted for both Bill Clinton, and Obama. When the country is turning violent and the extremes from each party speak for the majority, I decided to take a step back and reevaluate what was important to me. That is, the extreme branch from either party doesn't get control of the country. I don't know if I'm a moderate Republican, or a Conservative Democrat, but give me guys like Lloyd Benson, Jim Wright, Chet Edwards (parent's were good friends) and those are the kinda guys I would vote for. We don't have those kind of people anymore. They are too conservative for the Blues and too liberal for the Reds.

CHIEF

workswithseed · February 11, 2021

50 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

They just murder doctors at abortion clinics or cheer for the people who do.

Damn, when was that? Next you're gonna bring up the crusades.

Johnny Sack · February 11, 2021

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

They just murder doctors at abortion clinics or cheer for the people who do.

Four abortion doctors have been murdered in the USA in the last 50 years.

JerrysJheriCurl · February 12, 2021

I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm hammered drunk!

February 12, 2021

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

Four abortion doctors have been murdered in the USA in the last 50 years.

Yes, but during which trimester?

workswithseed · February 12, 2021

4 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Yes, but during which trimester?

I don't know, they were probably parasites beforehand at some point. Isn't that the argument?

February 12, 2021

are we still talking about doctors?

immortal13 · February 12, 2021

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

are we still talking about doctors?

We were supposed to be talking about Cowboy Churches until all of you Cloak Room fucktards started flinging shit on everything as usual

sidis · February 12, 2021

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

Four abortion doctors have been murdered in the USA in the last 50 years.

Well since murdered receptionists, people visiting PP, and off-duty policemen aren’t actual people to you, I suppose that is a pretty convenient cherry picking exercise. Definitely nothing to fear...

Wiki entry on anti-abortion terrorists:

[quote]

MurdersEdit

In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, a police officer, two people (unclear of their connection), and a clinic escort.^{[I 16]}^{[I 17]} Seven murders occurred in the 1990s.^{[I 18]}

March 10, 1993: Gynaecologist David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescuein the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.^{[I 19]}
July 29, 1994: John Britton, a physician, and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility, the Ladies Center, in Pensacola. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003. The clinic in Pensacola had been bombed before in 1984 and was also bombed subsequently in 2012.^{[I 20]}
December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.^{[I 20]}
January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Rudolph admitted responsibility; he was also charged with three Atlanta bombings: the 1997 bombing of an abortion center, the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, and another of a lesbian nightclub. He was found guilty of the crimes and received two life sentences as a result.^{[I 21]}
October 23, 1998: Barnett Slepian was shot to death with a high-powered rifle at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Slepian's murder after being apprehended in France in 2001.^{[I 22]}
May 31, 2009: George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at a church in Wichita, Kansas.^{[I 23]} This was not Tiller's first time being a victim to anti-abortion violence. Tiller was shot once before in 1993 by Shelley Shannon, who was sentenced 10 years in prison for the shooting.
November 29, 2015: A shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado, left three dead and several injured, and a suspect Robert L. Dear was apprehended.^{[I 24]}^{[I 25]}^{[I 26]} The suspect had previously acted against other clinics, and referred to himself as a "warrior for the babies" at his hearing.^{[I 27]}^{[I 28]} Neighbors and former neighbors described the suspect as "reclusive",^{[I 25]} and police from several states where the suspect resided described a history of run-ins dating from at least 1997.^{[I 26]} As of December 2015, the trial of the suspect was open;^{[I 27]} but, on May 11, 2016, the court declared the suspect incompetent to stand trial after a mental evaluation was completed.^{[I 29]}

Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingEdit

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded,^{[I 30]}100 butyric acid stink bomb attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats,^{[I 31]}and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.^{[I 32]} Between 1977 and 1990, 77 death threats were made, with 250 made between 1991 and 1999.^{[I 30]} Attempted murders in the U.S. included:^{[I 16]}^{[I 5]}^{[I 6]} in 1985 45% of clinics reported bomb threats, decreasing to 15% in 2000. One fifth of clinics in 2000 experienced some form of extreme activity.^{[I 33]}

August 1982: Three men identifying as the Army of God kidnapped Hector Zevallos (a doctor and clinic owner) and his wife, Rosalee Jean, holding them for eight days.^[15]
June 15, 1984: A month after he destroyed suction equipment at a Birmingham clinic, Edward Markley, a Benedictine priest who was the Birmingham diocesan "Coordinator for Pro-Life Activities".^{[I 34]}^{[I 35]} (and perhaps an accomplice^{[citation needed]}), entered the Women's Community Health Center in Huntsville, Alabama, assaulting at least three clinic workers.^{[citation needed]} Kathryn Wood, one of the workers, received back injuries and a broken neck vertebrae while preventing Markley from splashing red paint on the clinic's equipment. Markley was convicted of first-degree criminal mischief, one count of third-degree assault, and one count of harassment in the Huntsville attack.^[16]
August 19, 1993: George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was convicted of the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barrett was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and John Britton.
December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
December 18, 1996: Calvin Jackson, a medical doctor of New Orleans, Louisiana was stabbed 15 times, losing 4 pints of blood. Donald Cooper was charged with second degree attempted murder and was sentenced to 20 years. "Donald Cooper's Day of Violence", by Kara Lowentheil, Choice! Magazine, December 21, 2004.
October 28, 1997: David Gandell, a medical doctor of Rochester, New York sustained serious injuries after being targeted by a sniper firing through a window in his home.^{[I 36]}
January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed off-duty police officer Robert Sanderson.

Arson, bombing, and property crimeEdit

According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").^{[I 32]} The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.^{[I 37]} The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.^{[I 38]}Incidents have included:

May 26, 1983: Joseph Grace set the Hillcrest clinic in Norfolk, Virginia ablaze. He was arrested while sleeping in his van a few blocks from the clinic when a patrol officer noticed the smell of kerosene.^{[I 39]}
May 12, 1984: Two men entered a Birmingham, Alabama clinic on Mother's Dayweekend shortly after a lone woman opened the doors at 7:25 A.M. Forcing their way into the clinic, one of the men threatened the woman if she tried to prevent the attack while the other, wielding a sledgehammer, did between $7,500 and $8,500 of damage to suction equipment. The man who damaged the equipment was later identified as Edward Markley. Markley is a Benedictine priest who was the Birmingham diocesan "Coordinator for Pro-Life Activities". Markley was convicted of first-degree criminal mischief and second-degree burglary. His accomplice has never been identified. The following month (near Father's Day), Markley entered a women's health center in Huntsville, Alabama (see above).^{[I 35]}
December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida, were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."^{[I 40]}^{[I 41]}^{[I 42]} The clinic, the Ladies Center, would later be the site of the murder of John Britton and James Barrett in 1994 and a firebombing in 2012.
March 26, 1986: Six anti-abortion activists, including John Burt and Joan Andrews, were arrested after invading an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida, causing property damage and injuring two women (a clinic manager and a member of the local NOW chapter).^[17]^[18]Burt was convicted of attempted burglary of an occupied building, assault, battery, and resisting arrest without violence, and was sentenced to 141 days already served in jail and four years of probation; his 18-year-old daughter, Sarah Burt, who also took part in the invasion, was sentenced to 15 days in jail (with credit for two days already served) and three years of probation.^[18] Andrews refused to pledge not to carry out such actions in the future and was convicted of burglary, criminal mischief and resisting arrest without violence. She was sentenced to five years in prison, which she spent largely in self-imposed isolation, refusing a mattress and all medical care.^[19]
July 27, 1987: Eight members of the Bible Missionary Fellowship, a fundamentalist church in Santee, California, attempted to bomb the Alvarado Medical Center abortion clinic. Church member Cheryl Sullenger procured gunpowder, bomb materials, and a disguise for co-conspirator Eric Everett Svelmoe, who planted a gasoline bomb. It was placed at the premises but failed to detonate as the fuse was blown out by wind.^[20]
July 3, 1989: A fire was started at the Feminist Health Center clinic in Concord, New Hampshire, on the day U.S. Supreme Court upheld a Missouri law banning funding of public facilities as related to abortion. The clinic was set afire again in 2000.^{[I 43]}
March 29, 1993: Blue Mountain Clinic in Missoula, Montana; at around 1 a.m., an arsonist snuck onto the premises and firebombed the clinic. The perpetrator, a Washington man, was ultimately caught, convicted and imprisoned. The facility was a near-total loss, but all of the patients' records, though damaged, survived the fire in metal file cabinets.^{[I 44]}^{[I 45]}^{[I 46]}^{[I 43]}
January 1997: Eric Rudolph admitted, as part of a plea deal for the Centennial Olympic Park bombing at the 1996 Olympic Games to placing a pair of bombs that exploded at the Northside Family Planning Services clinic in the Atlanta suburb of Sandy Springs.^{[I 21]}
May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.^{[I 47]}
October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakotacausing minimal damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison.^[21]
May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire, resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved.^{[I 48]}^{[I 49]}^{[I 50]} This was the second arson at the clinic.^{[I 43]}
September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building, who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.^{[I 51]}
June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington, destroyed a wall, resulting in $6,000 in damages.^{[I 52]}
July 4, 2005: A clinic in West Palm Beach, Florida, was the target of an probable arson.^[22]^[23]
December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a "memorial lamp" for an abortion she had had there.^{[I 53]}
September 11, 2006: David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan, crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions; however, Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.^{[I 54]} Timemagazine listed the incident in a "Top 10 Inept Terrorist Plots" list.^{[I 55]}
April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas, contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime.^{[I 56]}
May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.^{[I 57]}
December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Baca's girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.^{[I 58]}^{[I 59]}
January 22, 2009: Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness,^{[I 60]} rammed an SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Saint Paul, Minnesota,^{[I 61]} causing between $2,500 and $5,000 in damage.^[24] Derosia, who told police that Jesus told him to "stop the murderers," was ruled competent to stand trial. He pleaded guilty in March 2009 to one count of criminal damage to property.^[24]
January 1, 2012: Bobby Joe Rogers, 41, firebombed the American Family PlanningClinic in Pensacola, Florida, with a Molotov cocktail; the fire gutted the building. Rogers told investigators that he was motivated to commit the crime by his opposition to abortion, and that what more directly prompted the act was seeing a patient enter the clinic during one of the frequent anti-abortion protests there. The clinic had previously been bombed at Christmas in 1984 and was the site of the murder of John Britton and James Barrett in 1994.^{[I 62]}
April 1, 2012: A bomb exploded on the windowsill of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Grand Chute, Wisconsin, resulting in a fire that caused minimal damage.^[25]
April 11, 2013: Benjamin David Curell, 27, caused extensive damage to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Bloomington, Indiana, vandalizing it with an axe.^{[I 63]}^[26] Curell was convicted in state court of felony burglary, and pleaded guilty in federal court to one count of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act. In the federal case, he was sentenced to three years of probation and ordered to pay restitution.^[27]
September 4, 2015: A Planned Parenthood clinic in Pullman, Washington was intentionally set on fire. No injuries were reported due to the time of day, but the FBI was involved because of a history of domestic terrorism against the clinic.^{[I 64]} The crime was never solved. The clinic reopened six months later.^[28]
October 22, 2015: A Planned Parenthood clinic in Claremont, New Hampshire was vandalized by a juvenile intruder. Damaged in the attack were computers, furniture, plumbing fixtures, office equipment, medical equipment, phone lines, windows, and walls. The flooding that resulted from the vandalism also damaged an adjacent business.^{[I 65]}^{[I 66]}
February 24–25, 2016: Travis Reynolds, 21, vandalized a Baltimore-area women's health care clinic with anti-abortion graffiti.^[29]^[30]After being arrested, Reynolds "admitted to police that he defaced the clinic's doors, walls and windows because he thought that it would deter women from using the clinic."^[30]Reynolds pleaded guilty in federal court to one count of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act in October 2016.^[30]
March 7, 2016: Rachel Ann Jackson, 71, vandalized a Planned Parenthood clinic in Columbus, Ohio, with the message "SATAN DEN OF BABY KILLERS..." She pleaded guilty to felony counts of breaking and entering and vandalism and a misdemeanor count of aggravated trespass.^[31]^[32] Jackson was sentenced to probation, with the judge citing her struggle with serious mental illness as a mitigating factor.^[32]

[/quote]

February 12, 2021

4 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

We were supposed to be talking about Cowboy Churches until all of you Cloak Room fucktards started flinging shit on everything as usual

Looking back at my dozen or so posts on this thread, there isn't anything remotely Cloak Room in any of my posts unless you can't see the trimester sarcasm in my last couple. You show me more than 1 post of mine on this thread that is CR-ish and I'll see myself out, you can have all my rep for the day, and I won't post anywhere near you in the forseeable future.

Ghost of LL · February 12, 2021

We were supposed to be talking about Cowboy Churches until all of you Cloak Room fucktards started flinging shit on everything as usual

Fuck off, snowflake. It’s not CR-ish just because it triggers you.

Serak The Preparer · February 12, 2021

8 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Who knew so many Surly libs visited Cowboy Churches and can espouse educated opinions on same?

How many times would you guess you've posted about the political motivations and behavior of black churches? How many have you been to?

Johnny Sack · February 12, 2021

30 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

How many times would you guess you've posted about the political motivations and behavior of black churches? How many have you been to?

Been to a black church more times than I can count. My church as a kid teamed up with black churches outreach with inner city churches all the time. We frequently went to their church. It was longer and they dressed better than us.

Johnny Sack · February 12, 2021

1 hour ago, sidis said:

Well since murdered receptionists, people visiting PP, and off-duty policemen aren’t actual people to you, I suppose that is a pretty convenient cherry picking exercise. Definitely nothing to fear...

Wiki entry on anti-abortion terrorists:

[quote]

MurdersEdit

In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, a police officer, two people (unclear of their connection), and a clinic escort.^{[I 16]}^{[I 17]} Seven murders occurred in the 1990s.^{[I 18]}

March 10, 1993: Gynaecologist David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescuein the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.^{[I 19]}

July 29, 1994: John Britton, a physician, and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility, the Ladies Center, in Pensacola. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003. The clinic in Pensacola had been bombed before in 1984 and was also bombed subsequently in 2012.^{[I 20]}

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.^{[I 20]}

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Rudolph admitted responsibility; he was also charged with three Atlanta bombings: the 1997 bombing of an abortion center, the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, and another of a lesbian nightclub. He was found guilty of the crimes and received two life sentences as a result.^{[I 21]}

October 23, 1998: Barnett Slepian was shot to death with a high-powered rifle at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Slepian's murder after being apprehended in France in 2001.^{[I 22]}

May 31, 2009: George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at a church in Wichita, Kansas.^{[I 23]} This was not Tiller's first time being a victim to anti-abortion violence. Tiller was shot once before in 1993 by Shelley Shannon, who was sentenced 10 years in prison for the shooting.

November 29, 2015: A shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado, left three dead and several injured, and a suspect Robert L. Dear was apprehended.^{[I 24]}^{[I 25]}^{[I 26]} The suspect had previously acted against other clinics, and referred to himself as a "warrior for the babies" at his hearing.^{[I 27]}^{[I 28]} Neighbors and former neighbors described the suspect as "reclusive",^{[I 25]} and police from several states where the suspect resided described a history of run-ins dating from at least 1997.^{[I 26]} As of December 2015, the trial of the suspect was open;^{[I 27]} but, on May 11, 2016, the court declared the suspect incompetent to stand trial after a mental evaluation was completed.^{[I 29]}

Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingEdit

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded,^{[I 30]}100 butyric acid stink bomb attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats,^{[I 31]}and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.^{[I 32]} Between 1977 and 1990, 77 death threats were made, with 250 made between 1991 and 1999.^{[I 30]} Attempted murders in the U.S. included:^{[I 16]}^{[I 5]}^{[I 6]} in 1985 45% of clinics reported bomb threats, decreasing to 15% in 2000. One fifth of clinics in 2000 experienced some form of extreme activity.^{[I 33]}

August 1982: Three men identifying as the Army of God kidnapped Hector Zevallos (a doctor and clinic owner) and his wife, Rosalee Jean, holding them for eight days.^[15]

June 15, 1984: A month after he destroyed suction equipment at a Birmingham clinic, Edward Markley, a Benedictine priest who was the Birmingham diocesan "Coordinator for Pro-Life Activities".^{[I 34]}^{[I 35]} (and perhaps an accomplice^{[citation needed]}), entered the Women's Community Health Center in Huntsville, Alabama, assaulting at least three clinic workers.^{[citation needed]} Kathryn Wood, one of the workers, received back injuries and a broken neck vertebrae while preventing Markley from splashing red paint on the clinic's equipment. Markley was convicted of first-degree criminal mischief, one count of third-degree assault, and one count of harassment in the Huntsville attack.^[16]

August 19, 1993: George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was convicted of the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).

July 29, 1994: June Barrett was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and John Britton.

December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.

December 18, 1996: Calvin Jackson, a medical doctor of New Orleans, Louisiana was stabbed 15 times, losing 4 pints of blood. Donald Cooper was charged with second degree attempted murder and was sentenced to 20 years. "Donald Cooper's Day of Violence", by Kara Lowentheil, Choice! Magazine, December 21, 2004.

October 28, 1997: David Gandell, a medical doctor of Rochester, New York sustained serious injuries after being targeted by a sniper firing through a window in his home.^{[I 36]}

January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed off-duty police officer Robert Sanderson.

Arson, bombing, and property crimeEdit

According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").^{[I 32]} The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.^{[I 37]} The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.^{[I 38]}Incidents have included:

May 26, 1983: Joseph Grace set the Hillcrest clinic in Norfolk, Virginia ablaze. He was arrested while sleeping in his van a few blocks from the clinic when a patrol officer noticed the smell of kerosene.^{[I 39]}

May 12, 1984: Two men entered a Birmingham, Alabama clinic on Mother's Dayweekend shortly after a lone woman opened the doors at 7:25 A.M. Forcing their way into the clinic, one of the men threatened the woman if she tried to prevent the attack while the other, wielding a sledgehammer, did between $7,500 and $8,500 of damage to suction equipment. The man who damaged the equipment was later identified as Edward Markley. Markley is a Benedictine priest who was the Birmingham diocesan "Coordinator for Pro-Life Activities". Markley was convicted of first-degree criminal mischief and second-degree burglary. His accomplice has never been identified. The following month (near Father's Day), Markley entered a women's health center in Huntsville, Alabama (see above).^{[I 35]}

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida, were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."^{[I 40]}^{[I 41]}^{[I 42]} The clinic, the Ladies Center, would later be the site of the murder of John Britton and James Barrett in 1994 and a firebombing in 2012.

March 26, 1986: Six anti-abortion activists, including John Burt and Joan Andrews, were arrested after invading an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida, causing property damage and injuring two women (a clinic manager and a member of the local NOW chapter).^[17]^[18]Burt was convicted of attempted burglary of an occupied building, assault, battery, and resisting arrest without violence, and was sentenced to 141 days already served in jail and four years of probation; his 18-year-old daughter, Sarah Burt, who also took part in the invasion, was sentenced to 15 days in jail (with credit for two days already served) and three years of probation.^[18] Andrews refused to pledge not to carry out such actions in the future and was convicted of burglary, criminal mischief and resisting arrest without violence. She was sentenced to five years in prison, which she spent largely in self-imposed isolation, refusing a mattress and all medical care.^[19]

July 27, 1987: Eight members of the Bible Missionary Fellowship, a fundamentalist church in Santee, California, attempted to bomb the Alvarado Medical Center abortion clinic. Church member Cheryl Sullenger procured gunpowder, bomb materials, and a disguise for co-conspirator Eric Everett Svelmoe, who planted a gasoline bomb. It was placed at the premises but failed to detonate as the fuse was blown out by wind.^[20]

July 3, 1989: A fire was started at the Feminist Health Center clinic in Concord, New Hampshire, on the day U.S. Supreme Court upheld a Missouri law banning funding of public facilities as related to abortion. The clinic was set afire again in 2000.^{[I 43]}

March 29, 1993: Blue Mountain Clinic in Missoula, Montana; at around 1 a.m., an arsonist snuck onto the premises and firebombed the clinic. The perpetrator, a Washington man, was ultimately caught, convicted and imprisoned. The facility was a near-total loss, but all of the patients' records, though damaged, survived the fire in metal file cabinets.^{[I 44]}^{[I 45]}^{[I 46]}^{[I 43]}

January 1997: Eric Rudolph admitted, as part of a plea deal for the Centennial Olympic Park bombing at the 1996 Olympic Games to placing a pair of bombs that exploded at the Northside Family Planning Services clinic in the Atlanta suburb of Sandy Springs.^{[I 21]}

May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.^{[I 47]}

October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakotacausing minimal damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison.^[21]

May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire, resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved.^{[I 48]}^{[I 49]}^{[I 50]} This was the second arson at the clinic.^{[I 43]}

September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building, who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.^{[I 51]}

June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington, destroyed a wall, resulting in $6,000 in damages.^{[I 52]}

July 4, 2005: A clinic in West Palm Beach, Florida, was the target of an probable arson.^[22]^[23]

December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a "memorial lamp" for an abortion she had had there.^{[I 53]}

September 11, 2006: David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan, crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions; however, Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.^{[I 54]} Timemagazine listed the incident in a "Top 10 Inept Terrorist Plots" list.^{[I 55]}

April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas, contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime.^{[I 56]}

May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.^{[I 57]}

December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Baca's girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.^{[I 58]}^{[I 59]}

January 22, 2009: Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness,^{[I 60]} rammed an SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Saint Paul, Minnesota,^{[I 61]} causing between $2,500 and $5,000 in damage.^[24] Derosia, who told police that Jesus told him to "stop the murderers," was ruled competent to stand trial. He pleaded guilty in March 2009 to one count of criminal damage to property.^[24]

January 1, 2012: Bobby Joe Rogers, 41, firebombed the American Family PlanningClinic in Pensacola, Florida, with a Molotov cocktail; the fire gutted the building. Rogers told investigators that he was motivated to commit the crime by his opposition to abortion, and that what more directly prompted the act was seeing a patient enter the clinic during one of the frequent anti-abortion protests there. The clinic had previously been bombed at Christmas in 1984 and was the site of the murder of John Britton and James Barrett in 1994.^{[I 62]}

April 1, 2012: A bomb exploded on the windowsill of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Grand Chute, Wisconsin, resulting in a fire that caused minimal damage.^[25]

April 11, 2013: Benjamin David Curell, 27, caused extensive damage to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Bloomington, Indiana, vandalizing it with an axe.^{[I 63]}^[26] Curell was convicted in state court of felony burglary, and pleaded guilty in federal court to one count of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act. In the federal case, he was sentenced to three years of probation and ordered to pay restitution.^[27]

September 4, 2015: A Planned Parenthood clinic in Pullman, Washington was intentionally set on fire. No injuries were reported due to the time of day, but the FBI was involved because of a history of domestic terrorism against the clinic.^{[I 64]} The crime was never solved. The clinic reopened six months later.^[28]

October 22, 2015: A Planned Parenthood clinic in Claremont, New Hampshire was vandalized by a juvenile intruder. Damaged in the attack were computers, furniture, plumbing fixtures, office equipment, medical equipment, phone lines, windows, and walls. The flooding that resulted from the vandalism also damaged an adjacent business.^{[I 65]}^{[I 66]}

February 24–25, 2016: Travis Reynolds, 21, vandalized a Baltimore-area women's health care clinic with anti-abortion graffiti.^[29]^[30]After being arrested, Reynolds "admitted to police that he defaced the clinic's doors, walls and windows because he thought that it would deter women from using the clinic."^[30]Reynolds pleaded guilty in federal court to one count of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act in October 2016.^[30]

March 7, 2016: Rachel Ann Jackson, 71, vandalized a Planned Parenthood clinic in Columbus, Ohio, with the message "SATAN DEN OF BABY KILLERS..." She pleaded guilty to felony counts of breaking and entering and vandalism and a misdemeanor count of aggravated trespass.^[31]^[32] Jackson was sentenced to probation, with the judge citing her struggle with serious mental illness as a mitigating factor.^[32]

[/quote]

Take it up with the poster I was responding to because he was the one talking about murdered abortion doctors. So the total count is 11 people at most in 50 years. A real epidemic. And yes every week at my church we cheer those once in every four year murders.

February 12, 2021

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

My church as a kid teamed up with black churches outreach with inner city churches all the time. We frequently went to their church.

"Alright y'all...let's team up. Who wants on Johnny Sack's squad?" said no black guy ever.

Sorry man, low hanging fruit. That's cool y'all did that. Connecting through youth sports, food pantries, habitat for humanity, etc. All that shit. It's good and all, but connecting over ministry and music, there is no substitute. Pos rep (sorry couldn't help myself)

elfenix · February 12, 2021

On 2/9/2021 at 7:32 PM, Bernard said:

I thought it was just a church for people who don't own any nice clothes.

Bernard

8 am mass says hi

immamac · February 12, 2021

This thread is fascinating and completely fucking derailed. I need time to spit out the discussion or I can just rename and move the thread where it belongs. This has remained very civil and there's lots of really good opinions and facts being stated from all kinds of vantage points from way more than just 2 posters.

The real question is do we want a thread about cowboy churches specifically for cowboy church talk and then rename this thread to something else related to rural evangelical discussion?

Pam Cummings · February 12, 2021

11 hours ago, Lobo said:

are we still talking about doctors?

I'm sitting here wondering if "abortion doctor" is an actual title.

Al_4_ISU · February 12, 2021

15 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

When I spent 3 months a year working 16 hour days, staring out at the endless spaces of northern Iowa, I have a lot of time to think about this kind of shit.

Al_4_ISU · February 12, 2021

14 hours ago, CHIEF said:

I'll concede that there are a quite a few idoits, and they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and I fully condemn their action. Isn't that what most of you on the board said about the riots? What the group, at the capital did was wrong. I don't sympathize with any of them, or have any sympathy for them. See, that was simple, but most Reds will only whine, and let it go.

I voted for both Bill Clinton, and Obama. When the country is turning violent and the extremes from each party speak for the majority, I decided to take a step back and reevaluate what was important to me. That is, the extreme branch from either party doesn't get control of the country. I don't know if I'm a moderate Republican, or a Conservative Democrat, but give me guys like Lloyd Benson, Jim Wright, Chet Edwards (parent's were good friends) and those are the kinda guys I would vote for. We don't have those kind of people anymore. They are too conservative for the Blues and too liberal for the Reds.

CHIEF

I think a lot of people don't want this, but the biggest reason I voted straight ticket Democrat for the first time in my life is because the extreme branch has 100% hijacked the Republican Party. There are definitely extremists on the left, but they don't have anywhere near the level of power within the party that you see on the right. They get a lot of publicity and attention, but they aren't running the show. I can't see AOC ever becoming the Democrat presidential nominee. The right put the craziest turd in the shithouse right to the top.

I really don't want the extreme left's version of America, but I have a lot more faith in the moderate left stopping the extreme left than I do of the moderate right stopping the extreme right. The moderate right has already demonstrated that they'll tolerate their own extremists if it means Ws.

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