Gold bug / silver bug / numismatic / metals thread

[52-80 19,140]

is it a sign of boomerdom when you start getting into this stuff?  i might be obsessed.  its now my favorite thing to buy and gift for newborns, weddings, etc.

just ordered some Kinebars from the local mint, looks nice and shiny and has some collectibility value (to me), and price is similar than random bars from apmex/provident.

 

while snooping around i found the idea of these Round-in-Bar sets and they seem really cool, except cant find a place to purchase.  Anyone know where to get such things?

 

[52-80 19,140]

some of these sets are on ebay but theres a pretty big premium over spot price.  nm

[Blotto 23,484]

PM Mac65hookem. 

[Ghost of LL 15,531]

So my father left his coin collection to my daughter in his will.  There's some really cool shit in there--e.g., a quarter from 1858; a few silver dollars from the 1870's, a bunch of steel pennies from WWII.  Does anybody know a reputable dealer in town who would appraise the collection?

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

On 2/10/2021 at 6:05 AM, 52-80 said:

is it a sign of boomerdom when you start getting into this stuff? 

Kind of depends-- go to a coin show, it's a geezer convention. Watch videos, and you'd think it's all guys in their 30s and 40s. When I would teach Spanish at the juco I'd take a half-dozen old silver Mexican coins, we'd pass them around and spend most of an hour on a history dive based on the images on the coins. Then the 19/20 year olds would surprise me because some of them were hauling around keepsake silver coins in their pockets and/or logging in to check the spot price. One kid was so into metal that I actually tried to get him to put more money into other stuff.

I'd say 95% of any age group don't know anything about it.

I am holding off buying any silver now until the GameStop collateral damage drops off. $5 premiums on generic rounds? huhuhu.

If you are a veteran, Provident Metals will give you the best price on everything if you contact them and see what docs (with ssn marked out) they need to see.

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

So my father left his coin collection to my daughter in his will.  There's some really cool shit in there--e.g., a quarter from 1858; a few silver dollars from the 1870's, a bunch of steel pennies from WWII.  Does anybody know a reputable dealer in town who would appraise the collection?

Which town? If San Antonio is convenient to you, Royalty Coins on the Riverwalk always did me right, and from eavesdropping the offers they made to others, they seem very fair.

[Ghost of LL 15,531]

1 hour ago, RDCanecutter said:

Which town? If San Antonio is convenient to you, Royalty Coins on the Riverwalk always did me right, and from eavesdropping the offers they made to others, they seem very fair.

I'm up in Austin.

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

52 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I'm up in Austin.

I bet @Armybrat knows a guy.

[Armybrat 40,814]

No, most of my stuff was inherited. The only Austin area coin shop I went to years ago is still next door to McBride’s gun store.

[conVINCEd 21,469]

5 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

So my father left his coin collection to my daughter in his will.  There's some really cool shit in there--e.g., a quarter from 1858; a few silver dollars from the 1870's, a bunch of steel pennies from WWII.  Does anybody know a reputable dealer in town who would appraise the collection?

If you are ever in Dallas Heritage Auctions is where you should go. They are the largest auctioneer of coins in the world.   They do free appraisals if you bat your eyelashes and act like you might be interested in selling.  The people they employ know more about coins than you know about the law.  They are high end, and coins aren’t my specialty, but take a look around their website and you can get a pretty good idea about value from looking at past auction results.  You do have to register to see prices realized.  I did a quick search and the 1858 quarter is probably worth some money depending on condition.

ha.com

[Ghost of LL 15,531]

If you are ever in Dallas Heritage Auctions is where you should go. They are the largest auctioneer of coins in the world.   They do free appraisals if you bat your eyelashes and act like you might be interested in selling.  The people they employ know more about coins than you know about the law.  They are high end, and coins aren’t my specialty, but take a look around their website and you can get a pretty good idea about value from looking at past auction results.  You do have to register to see prices realized.  I did a quick search and the 1858 quarter is probably worth some money depending on condition.
ha.com

I may do that. My son got the baseball card collection. That had done wild shit, like a full set of the 1969 Dallas Texans cards that 7-11 gave away. I mean, there are some things that are more conventional, like the five Yaz rookie cards. But the Texans cards are definitely he wildest.

[conVINCEd 21,469]

Just now, Ghost of LL said:

I may do that. My son got the baseball card collection. That had done wild shit, like a full set of the 1969 Dallas Texans cards that 7-11 gave away. I mean, there are some things that are more conventional, like the five Yaz rookie cards. But the Texans cards are definitely he wildest.

They will also give you informal appraisals via email if you send them pics.  It may take longer than you would like for them to get back to you, but they will.  If your coins are worth a fortune, you will receive a phone call within 15 minutes, if the entire collection is worth a couple hundred bucks it might take a week or two.  They do sports as well, and that is more my area of expertise.  The cards, like the coins, are entirely dependent on condition.

[Ghost of LL 15,531]

14 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

They will also give you informal appraisals via email if you send them pics.  It may take longer than you would like for them to get back to you, but they will.  If your coins are worth a fortune, you will receive a phone call within 15 minutes, if the entire collection is worth a couple hundred bucks it might take a week or two.  They do sports as well, and that is more my area of expertise.  The cards, like the coins, are entirely dependent on condition.

That's a good suggestion.  I appreciate the help.

[MaybeACoordinator 8,349]

15 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

I may do that. My son got the baseball card collection. That had done wild shit, like a full set of the 1969 Dallas Texans cards that 7-11 gave away. I mean, there are some things that are more conventional, like the five Yaz rookie cards. But the Texans cards are definitely he wildest.

I sold an autographed Davy O'Brien Heisman presentation program through Heritage. Didn't get quite as much as we -- the house and I -- expected, but I was still satisfied with the experience. 

[Larry T. Spider 1,746]

My parents live in Austin and are interested in buying physical gold. I’m sure we could debate whether or not that’s a smart idea. But if they were going to do it, what would be the best way of going about it?

[bernorange 8,359]

I've done mail order business with Bold Precious Metals in Austin.  @Ghost of LL, you might call them about appraising your coins:

https://boldpreciousmetals.com/

@Larry T. Spider, step 1, know what you want.  Bullion (metal value only) or numismatic (metal value with subjective collector value based upon condition/grading).  Then shop around online to get a baseline price for (including shipping and possibly sales tax).  Local brick and mortar won't charge sales tax for bullion.

[Larry T. Spider 1,746]

I’ll look into it more but which would you go with if you were 65 and just wanted to protect against inflation with the fed going brrr all the time? 99% chance they would never use it and would just pass it on. Most major online dealers are reputable I assume?

Not saying I think this is what they should do, just want them do go about it the best way possible if that’s what they decide to do.

[bernorange 8,359]

8 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

... which would you go with if you were 65 and just wanted to protect against inflation with the fed going brrr all the time?

American Eagles from the US Mint.

 

[bernorange 8,359]

Brilliant uncirculated Eagles (bullion).  Not proof coins (graded/numismatic premiums).

[52-80 19,140]

just for kicks i asked apmex for appraisal of gold proof coins i got, from major mint as part of limited edition set.

they offered -5% below random rounds of equivalent weight.  not the worst deal in the world, but no way im letting them go.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,506]

5 hours ago, Larry T. Spider said:

I’ll look into it more but which would you go with if you were 65 and just wanted to protect against inflation with the fed going brrr all the time? 99% chance they would never use it and would just pass it on. Most major online dealers are reputable I assume?

Not saying I think this is what they should do, just want them do go about it the best way possible if that’s what they decide to do.

If someone was going heavy into gold because of inflation concerns, I would encourage 5-10% in bitcoin. Not enough that a complete bitcoin meltdown would destroy you but as a hedge against bitcoin pulling value from gold. And if USD has hyper inflation, gold skyrockets and bitcoin fails, you won’t care that you lost 5% of your original total investment in bitcoin.

personally I think the biggest problem with this strategy is that you would need to plan what your going to do once bitcoin appreciation makes your gold/bitcoin portfolio 50/50.

however the biggest flaw, in my argument above, is convincing an old to buy magic internet coins.

[52-80 19,140]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

If someone was going heavy into gold because of inflation concerns, I would encourage 5-10% in bitcoin. Not enough that a complete bitcoin meltdown would destroy you but as a hedge against bitcoin pulling value from gold. And if USD has hyper inflation, gold skyrockets and bitcoin fails, you won’t care that you lost 5% of your original total investment in bitcoin.

personally I think the biggest problem with this strategy is that you would need to plan what your going to do once bitcoin appreciation makes your gold/bitcoin portfolio 50/50.

however the biggest flaw, in my argument above, is convincing an old to buy magic internet coins.

get a physical coin with a B on it.  best of both worlds.  BOOM

 

 

[bernorange 8,359]

4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

... appraisal of gold proof coins

Yeah, that's the problem with numismatics.  Big premiums when buying.  Hard to realize the same premium when selling.  

 

[Larry T. Spider 1,746]

4 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

If someone was going heavy into gold because of inflation concerns, I would encourage 5-10% in bitcoin. Not enough that a complete bitcoin meltdown would destroy you but as a hedge against bitcoin pulling value from gold. And if USD has hyper inflation, gold skyrockets and bitcoin fails, you won’t care that you lost 5% of your original total investment in bitcoin.

personally I think the biggest problem with this strategy is that you would need to plan what your going to do once bitcoin appreciation makes your gold/bitcoin portfolio 50/50.

however the biggest flaw, in my argument above, is convincing an old to buy magic internet coins.

I’m trying to keep them from burying money in the back yard because “Biden is going to take all their money away and give it to BLM”.

Something they can hold onto without ruining the inheritance is all I’m looking for.

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

3 hours ago, Larry T. Spider said:

I’m trying to keep them from burying money in the back yard because “Biden is going to take all their money away and give it to BLM”.

Something they can hold onto without ruining the inheritance is all I’m looking for.

Coins: Random Year gold 20 Francs (France, Switzerland, Belgium, others) or Random Year gold Sovereigns (UK) are widespread and well-known among folks who buy and sell. .1867 Troy oz and .2354 Troy oz. respectively, currently in the $350-460 price area apiece, if you can find them.

I say random year because these were minted in the bazillions, and used in real life, so you're looking at coins that buy and sell for their gold weight with low premiums either buying or selling. Specific year examples will be marked up more, a mark up that you probably will never get back.

The scarcity at the moment might work in your favor as I suspect you don't want them buying too many at a time. They are small enough that when you sell a couple, you can probably do it as a cash deal. Some jewelry/coin stores hate buying 1 oz coins because their markup might barely cover a sudden swing in price. But these things, less than 1/4 oz, no biggie.

Similar to these and possibly easier to get in Texas are Mexican gold Pesos. They were money 100 years ago and the Mexicans later minted tons of them as bullion coins. Nothing fancy, just gold. I recommend buying the ten pesos and smaller because when you go to sell, they're easier to move. The 20 and the 50 though, super cool factor.

I don't know your parents, but it sounds like you will need to help them avoid scammers. Maybe just get them a $1,000 of gold coins to get it out of their system.  I suggest buying in person so A) it paces how much they get and B) doesn't get them on mailing lists.

https://www.providentmetals.com/20-francs-france-rooster-gold-coin.html

https://www.providentmetals.com/great-britain-sovereign-gold.html

https://www.providentmetals.com/mexico-10-peso-gold.html

[52-80 19,140]

the GB stuff looks dope.  are there any common gold bullion coins from defunct states that are widely held/traded?  like.. weimar republic and tstuff

Edited February 16, 2021 by 52-80

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

the GB stuff looks dope.  are there any common gold bullion coins from defunct states that are widely held/traded?  like.. weimar republic and tstuff

Common? Dunno about Weimar, but if you want some Austro-Hungarian stuff, that is all over the place.

[workswithseed 2,086]

On 2/10/2021 at 4:05 AM, 52-80 said:

is it a sign of boomerdom when you start getting into this stuff?  i might be obsessed.  its now my favorite thing to buy and gift for newborns, weddings, etc.

just ordered some Kinebars from the local mint, looks nice and shiny and has some collectibility value (to me), and price is similar than random bars from apmex/provident.

 

while snooping around i found the idea of these Round-in-Bar sets and they seem really cool, except cant find a place to purchase.  Anyone know where to get such things?

 

Also I don't think it's "boomerdom". I think it's just a good investment like crypto when you worry that the printer goes brrr too much. I've been buying small amounts of pm so I at least have some hedge against what I think will be inflation.

[F250 28,760]

On 2/11/2021 at 4:45 PM, RDCanecutter said:

Which town? If San Antonio is convenient to you, Royalty Coins on the Riverwalk always did me right, and from eavesdropping the offers they made to others, they seem very fair.

I've been to this one a couple of times and your summation is accurate. A friend of mine who collects coins introduced me to the place. Afterwards you can walk across the street to Schilos and complete the "things old people do" circle.

[pantone159 719]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:25 PM, Ghost of LL said:

So my father left his coin collection to my daughter in his will.  There's some really cool shit in there--e.g., a quarter from 1858; a few silver dollars from the 1870's, a bunch of steel pennies from WWII.  Does anybody know a reputable dealer in town who would appraise the collection?

You might check the mintmarks to see if you have a more valuable variety. On the 1858 quarter is should be on the back Just above the QUAR DOL. Either a letter S or O or nothing. The S seems to be worth more. There are actually 3 different kinds of dollar coins from the 1870s so it is hard to say about those without pics.

[pantone159 719]

On 2/15/2021 at 10:16 PM, Larry T. Spider said:

I’ll look into it more but which would you go with if you were 65 and just wanted to protect against inflation with the fed going brrr all the time? 99% chance they would never use it and would just pass it on. Most major online dealers are reputable I assume?

Not saying I think this is what they should do, just want them do go about it the best way possible if that’s what they decide to do.

If I was giving advice I would recommend US AGE which are liquid and come in a convenient variety of sizes.

If I was doing it myself, I'd more follow RDCane's advice and get a variety of ex-money gold when it is available for not much more than melt. I think a lot of USA gold coinage is also available near melt. There is really a large amount of this gold so pretty nice pieces should be available like this. Then I would have fun collecting something pretty while saving in a physical form.

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

Found this old photo of Mexican Onzas (1 oz silver bullion rounds) from different years. Something to stare at while waiting for silver to drop back down a bit.

 

[workswithseed 2,086]

On 3/6/2021 at 3:52 PM, RDCanecutter said:

Found this old photo of Mexican Onzas (1 oz silver bullion rounds) from different years. Something to stare at while waiting for silver to drop back down a bit.

 

Your waiting of it going down is happening.

Edited March 30, 2021 by workswithseed

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

56 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Your waiting of it going down is happening.

It is going down, in theory. I am still not seeing much to pick from, and the premiums are still high.

[workswithseed 2,086]

1 hour ago, RDCanecutter said:

It is going down, in theory. I am still not seeing much to pick from, and the premiums are still high.

What's your price point?

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

2 hours ago, workswithseed said:

What's your price point?

I didn't know the exact answer so I looked it up.

Last silver I bought was 1 Dec 2020, at $25.29/oz. London Fix* for that day was $23.50.

https://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/monthly_graphs.plx?ag2020=on&submitag2=View+Charts

So any premium of $2 or less is probably good for me.

The closest place to me has STOOPID premiums for certain items, as in, 12 dollar mark up for silver eagles. The guy has been charging higher and higher premiums as the months roll on, I suspect he's selling them at that price. There is another guy who has much better prices, but you have to be there the minute it comes in, or it's gone. It's a tiny place in the next county where people insist on breathing on each other. I'll wait.

What I'd like to get are a couple of small Mexican gold pesos. Provident Mint has decent prices for them. They are in stock for maybe one day a month.

*I have no idea what London Fix means but it sounds fancy. Yeah, I could google it. Probably won't.

[bernorange 8,359]

 

2 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

*I have no idea what London Fix means but it sounds fancy. ...

You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat.

[workswithseed 2,086]

On 3/30/2021 at 5:02 PM, RDCanecutter said:

I didn't know the exact answer so I looked it up.

Last silver I bought was 1 Dec 2020, at $25.29/oz. London Fix* for that day was $23.50.

https://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/monthly_graphs.plx?ag2020=on&submitag2=View+Charts

So any premium of $2 or less is probably good for me.

The closest place to me has STOOPID premiums for certain items, as in, 12 dollar mark up for silver eagles. The guy has been charging higher and higher premiums as the months roll on, I suspect he's selling them at that price. There is another guy who has much better prices, but you have to be there the minute it comes in, or it's gone. It's a tiny place in the next county where people insist on breathing on each other. I'll wait.

What I'd like to get are a couple of small Mexican gold pesos. Provident Mint has decent prices for them. They are in stock for maybe one day a month.

*I have no idea what London Fix means but it sounds fancy. Yeah, I could google it. Probably won't.

Looks like it is only up from here, boys!

https://www.fxempire.com/forecasts/article/100-silver-ahead-715355

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

10 hours ago, workswithseed said:

Looks like it is only up from here, boys!

https://www.fxempire.com/forecasts/article/100-silver-ahead-715355

yeeeahhhhhhh I always wonder why guys like this don't keep quiet and just buy up the thing they know is about to spike.

[Patricio Swayze 17,058]

On Monday, my younger brother, our dad and I went over to Austin to drop off materials for the libraries permanent collections. Copies of his book on reales and pesos of the new world, his notes, letters from collectors all over the world in the 60s and 70s, his honorary texas citizenship certificate and some other stuff.

We discovered that the one coin that he still has, a 1772 Real is likely counterfeit. We figured they wouldn’t want it, so we didn’t take it. However, they would also like it for research. So we will take it and maybe a recorded oral history we plan to do with my dad.

Pretty cool to have all this housed at UT where he (and my brothers and I) got our degrees.

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

5 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

We discovered that the one coin that he still has, a 1772 Real is likely counterfeit. 

Do you know when it was counterfeited? A counterfeit from the 1700s would be about as cool as the real coin.

[Patricio Swayze 17,058]

Do you know when it was counterfeited? A counterfeit from the 1700s would be about as cool as the real coin.

Not sure to be honest. Obviously prior than the 1970s. It is a real coin but altered.

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

4 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Not sure to be honest. Obviously prior than the 1970s. It is a real coin but altered.

Probably altered after a book came out saying the variant was valuable. Would be ironic if somebody decided to do it after reading your dad's book.

[workswithseed 2,086]

1 hour ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Not sure to be honest. Obviously prior than the 1970s. It is a real coin but altered.

That's cool either way. Glad your father's work will be on display for years to come.

[Armybrat 40,814]

On 2/16/2021 at 12:17 PM, RDCanecutter said:

Coins: Random Year gold 20 Francs (France, Switzerland, Belgium, others) or Random Year gold Sovereigns (UK) are widespread and well-known among folks who buy and sell. .1867 Troy oz and .2354 Troy oz. respectively, currently in the $350-460 price area apiece, if you can find them.

I say random year because these were minted in the bazillions, and used in real life, so you're looking at coins that buy and sell for their gold weight with low premiums either buying or selling. Specific year examples will be marked up more, a mark up that you probably will never get back.

The scarcity at the moment might work in your favor as I suspect you don't want them buying too many at a time. They are small enough that when you sell a couple, you can probably do it as a cash deal. Some jewelry/coin stores hate buying 1 oz coins because their markup might barely cover a sudden swing in price. But these things, less than 1/4 oz, no biggie.

Similar to these and possibly easier to get in Texas are Mexican gold Pesos. They were money 100 years ago and the Mexicans later minted tons of them as bullion coins. Nothing fancy, just gold. I recommend buying the ten pesos and smaller because when you go to sell, they're easier to move. The 20 and the 50 though, super cool factor.

I don't know your parents, but it sounds like you will need to help them avoid scammers. Maybe just get them a $1,000 of gold coins to get it out of their system.  I suggest buying in person so A) it paces how much they get and B) doesn't get them on mailing lists.

https://www.providentmetals.com/20-francs-france-rooster-gold-coin.html

https://www.providentmetals.com/great-britain-sovereign-gold.html

https://www.providentmetals.com/mexico-10-peso-gold.html

Inherited these from my Dad. Had a couple of sets of Vientes and 2.5 Pesos mounted into pendants with earrings to give to my DILs.

Mrs. Brat wears the Cincuenta once or twice a year with her 2.5 Peso errings.

 

[tomahawk dunk 321]

Does anyone have a recommendation on who to use for selling old jewelry/silverware/etc? I have used Midwest Refineries in Michigan before and they seemed fine. Just wanted to hear some other thoughts on selling random gold/silver. Thanks.

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

3 hours ago, tomahawk dunk said:

Does anyone have a recommendation on who to use for selling old jewelry/silverware/etc? I have used Midwest Refineries in Michigan before and they seemed fine. Just wanted to hear some other thoughts on selling random gold/silver. Thanks.

If they are paying 95% for gold scrap that looks decent to me, but I never dealt with much scrap other than selling a random earring or such.

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

Gold Buggery would not be complete without mention of the silver Dirham and the gold Dinar. These were originally copies of Byzantine coins. They have pretty consistent weights of 2.95 gm silver or 4.25 gm gold.

What brings them to this thread is that they are specifically mentioned in the Koran as payment for various obligations. It's actually the opposite of a hoarding mentality-- the more you have, the more you are supposed to give.

So anyway, there are various modern attempts to bring these back into use, most notoriously by ISIS but also by regional governments in places like Malaysia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_gold_dinar

I tried finding some of these for sale, so now my browser history probably pings all kinds of agencies. The only one I found was available for almost twice its gold price. Add to that the general video-arcade-token look, as well as how in the world would you know what's in it if you can find somebody to buy it, I doubt I'll get any.

It does make me think of other fringe attempts to make gold or silver legal tender, except with a religion behind it. or a very few people from that religion, more likely. The closest I see here is a dozen old guys grumbling about how the Constitution specifies money has to be gold or silver (if you collect either, do you REALLY want the government interested in controlling it?) while down in Mexico there is Hugo Salinas Price producing bogus news interviews where he allegedly has the Mexican government on the edge of making the silver Libertad a kind of magic money. (Salinas Price sells Libertads at all his Banco Azteca outlets.)

Anyway, I just find old systems that stay in place fascinating, like metric countries using sizes like 76.2 mm so the new guns match the old ammo that was in inches, maybe three guns and four sets of ammo in the past.

[bernorange 8,359]

27 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

...

So anyway, there are various modern attempts to bring these back into use, most notoriously by ISIS but also by regional governments in places like Malaysia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_gold_dinar

...

My links to the original source materials are all expired/dead, but back in 2016, The Blaze claimed Gaddafi was rolled because he was planning on (re)establishing the gold dinar:

https://www.pmbug.com/threads/intervention-in-libya-was-largely-about-gold-rickards-tells-future-money-trends.464/post-31813

They reference one of Hillary's emails from Sidney Blumenthal sent April 2, 2011. 

[RDCanecutter 26,377]

In the world of Precious Metals stacking, one thing never gets any love:

Silver spoons. As in, silver place settings of any style.

There are sayings about silver spoons that imply that they are connected to great wealth, and maybe in the 1700s that was true. But nowadays, you can buy them in good condition for less than the price of an ounce of silver, and you can USE them to eat with at every meal, anti-bacterial properties and all. Class up the kitchen!

Compare these to coins or rounds and ingots.

You get rounds or ingots of silver, you keep them in a drawer, and when you die, your lazy crackhead children sell them for half price to whichever pawn shop is between them and the liquor store.

You get old silver coins, you keep them in a drawer, and when you die, your lazy crackhead children dump them in a Coinstar machine at face value so they can buy a carton of Reds.

But on the other hand, if you get silver place settings, you spend years enjoying them every time you eat (and non-silver utensils taste nasty, trust me), and then when you die, your lazy crackhead daughters fight for them as they magically contain whatever remnant of your love remains for them.

Your lazy crackhead sons will still pawn them for half their value.