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ERCOT, PUC, and deregulation got us here

cactusflinthead

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bolverk

bolverk 29683

Posted
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13 minutes ago, kevwun said:

I expect is will make a small group a whole lot of money and fuck the rest of us.

That's probably a safe assumption, but I'd like a little foreknowledge on how exactly I'm going to get fucked. Avec lube or sans lube? Ribbed for my pleasure or spiked for my pain?

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High Plains Drifter
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I was driving around just now, listening to NPR, and they called out Abbot for his bullshit. I believe the direct quote was something like "Governor Abbot falsely claimed renewable energy was the caus

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kevwun

kevwun 15795

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The problem is they are very good at hiding the fuckery so it usually takes years to make itself apparent at the worst moment possible.  That fellow on twitter covers energy news for a living and he has no clue what they're even talking about.  Which means someone has put a great deal of effort in to obfuscating what they're actually doing.

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SydneyCarton

SydneyCarton 48108

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20 minutes ago, elfenix said:

Energy Transfer Partners logo in transparent PNG and ...

I’m about to walk into an event. Remind me of this thread tomorrow, and probably @closetojumping in things here. 
 

my guess is that this will just mean subsidization to build more power plants. Or to keep mothballed one’s open and running. I’m sure taxpayers will pay for it. I can get more in depth tomorrow. But I also doubt the lege is can agree on anything, even the PUC members can’t, and that’s before it reaches the politicians. 
 

OH shit this thread is in the CR. Man he’s going to be pissed at me. 

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elfenix

elfenix 34271

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

 

This is sounding like the pollution credits scheme.

you'd think there'd be incentive for wind producers already to store power because they ain't making shit when wind blows hard at night and prices per megawatt hour are nothing. 

i guess maybe the main problem is that commercialization of grid-scale batteries is really just getting off the ground, such as iron-air batteries:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a42532492/iron-air-battery-energy-storage/

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SydneyCarton

SydneyCarton 48108

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, elfenix said:

you'd think there'd be incentive for wind producers already to store power because they ain't making shit when wind blows hard at night and prices per megawatt hour are nothing. 

i guess maybe the main problem is that commercialization of grid-scale batteries is really just getting off the ground, such as iron-air batteries:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a42532492/iron-air-battery-energy-storage/

It would cost them more to store energy with shit batteries than they save with govt subsidies. So hard no. If batteries of any kind could handle the load requirements then wed have them lined up, regardless of whether the source was wind or not. Wed be storing power from natural gas plants, wind, solar, etc. 

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SydneyCarton

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Sigh. You aren’t the guy to have this conversation with…I’m a capitalist. I support profits. But guys who refused to pay to weatherize their pipes, fucked up the supply, but still made billions because of their willful neglect crested a massive shortage during high demand caused the prices to skyrocket…that’s not seeking a profit. It’s something else. 
 

power generators are incentivized to keep supply scarce. It’s a problem. 

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4639

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1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

Sigh. You aren’t the guy to have this conversation with…I’m a capitalist. I support profits. But guys who refused to pay to weatherize their pipes, fucked up the supply, but still made billions because of their willful neglect crested a massive shortage during high demand caused the prices to skyrocket…that’s not seeking a profit. It’s something else. 
 

power generators are incentivized to keep supply scarce. It’s a problem. 

We obviously both make a living in commodities.  They are playing by the rules in place.  Votes matter and all that. Pretty sure I’ve seen that on this forum, numerous times over the last 18 months or so. 

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Hank Scorpio

Hank Scorpio 17729

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It’s a tough issue, I don’t want to put the mom and pop power gen companies out of business but we need a more reliable grid. Maybe tax breaks or subsidies for the industry will help, those poor power companies are barely scratching out a profit. 

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SydneyCarton

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5 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

We obviously both make a living in commodities.  They are playing by the rules in place.  Votes matter and all that. Pretty sure I’ve seen that on this forum, numerous times over the last 18 months or so. 

They’re playing by the rules they put in place due to insane lobbying, campaign contributions, and the laws they ghost wrote for the legislators and governors they bought, in a state that is gerrymandered to the point of pointlessness. 
 

having some perspective matters. Your take is overly simplistic to the point of warranting immediate dismissal. 

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4639

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2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

They’re playing by the rules they put in place due to insane lobbying, campaign contributions, and the laws they ghost wrote for the legislators and governors they bought, in a state that is gerrymandered to the point of pointlessness. 
 

having some perspective matters. Your take is overly simplistic to the point of warranting immediate dismissal. 

I understand all of that.  You’re making an assumption I’m not ok with it.  

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SydneyCarton

SydneyCarton 48108

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2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I understand all of that.  You’re making an assumption I’m not ok with it.  

Actually I made the assumption you’re super OK with it. Based on the fact your post was “lol making a profit isn’t evil.” 
 

I’ll assume your post was a Freudian slip. Or that you have no understanding of how a comma, or lack therof, can really fuck up a sentence’s intent 

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elfenix

elfenix 34271

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39 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

It would cost them more to store energy with shit batteries than they save with govt subsidies. So hard no. If batteries of any kind could handle the load requirements then wed have them lined up, regardless of whether the source was wind or not. Wed be storing power from natural gas plants, wind, solar, etc. 

i'm going to assume you didn't give the popsci article a once over.  as i said, the issue might be more that the type of battery that can cheaply store big loads (h/t @South Austin's mom) is only just now being commercialized.

afaik, solar is already hitting peak output at peak pricing, and gas plants have an ongoing operation cost that is higher than wind or solar so the economic incentive to store energy isn't quite as good as it is with overnight wind. 

gas peaker plants become uneconomic with sufficient battery technology.  the question is just how far off is that technology. 

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C-Man

C-Man 27230

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8 hours ago, kevwun said:

I expect is will make a small group a whole lot of money and fuck the rest of us.

mandalorian-this-is-the-way.gif

 

4 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I'm fairly certain there's probably 10 times that many Cowboys fans that die of alcohol poisoning every year.

This is also the way.

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SydneyCarton

SydneyCarton 48108

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10 hours ago, elfenix said:

i'm going to assume you didn't give the popsci article a once over.  as i said, the issue might be more that the type of battery that can cheaply store big loads (h/t @South Austin's mom) is only just now being commercialized.

afaik, solar is already hitting peak output at peak pricing, and gas plants have an ongoing operation cost that is higher than wind or solar so the economic incentive to store energy isn't quite as good as it is with overnight wind. 

gas peaker plants become uneconomic with sufficient battery technology.  the question is just how far off is that technology. 

1) I did not read the article, you are correct

2) battery tech isn’t there. Now add 20+ years of regressive Texas legislature “killing energy” bulllshit to your timeline. 
 

3) I’m honestly not sure about your statement on nat gas plants being more expensive. If the left would be honest with themselves, which we won’t, the future is a mix of  nuclear and natural gas plants, and this is what should be embraced. You want stability? Natural gas and start building nuclear plants 10 years ago. That’s how you go “green.” Wind and solar isn’t going to work for at the least political reasons. Nuclear won’t happen also for political and economic reasons. 

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Fudge Nuggets

Fudge Nuggets 19196

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11 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

I’m implying it’s lol to treat them as they are evil because they are.  

No problem with them turning a profit, but when they take a loss they can eat that shit sandwich instead of passing it on to us.

Privatize the profits, socialize the losses is what most of us have a problem with.

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Fudge Nuggets

Fudge Nuggets 19196

Posted
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6 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

The populace voted for it, correct?  We got the system we voted for. 

YOU and your ilk voted for it.  I didn't vote for a single mother fucker that holds statewide office nor the dipshits that represent me in Congress and the State Senate and State House of Representatives.

This is 100% on you and others like you.

Fuckers.

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Js1

Js1 85372

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

Won't someone think of their profits!!! God damn this shit again

You keep forgetting that little addendum in the Declaration of Independence 

"Life, liberty and the pursuit of profits over people" 

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YChang

YChang 3452

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8 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

The populace voted for it, correct?  We got the system we voted for. 

My comment was more a riff on others saying you're ok with it and making me think of the lyrics. However, you keep using that comment like that somehow that it makes our collective situation ok. I find that strange. I mean, why not be part help with change instead of being for the status quo? Maybe you are, that is my assumption of course. 

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45970

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Regarding battery technology:  there is a site in Alabama that stores compressed air in underground salt caves.  The system pressurizes the caves at night when power is less expensive, and then uses that compressed air in a typical natgas/air combustion process to drive turbine generators when power is expensive.  I don't know how the numbers look, but it's been operational for a while.  I'm not sure if man-made storage tanks would be feasible, either.  The salt caves are obviously geology & location specific, but they work great as storage tanks (air pressure exceeds 1,000 psi).

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elfenix

elfenix 34271

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4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I’m honestly not sure about your statement on nat gas plants being more expensive.

there's two statements in my post to which this could conceivably apply.  i'd elaborate if i knew to which you are referring. 

 

4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

battery tech isn’t there.

between compressed air batteries, iron-air batteries, flow batteries, and various forms of gravity battery, it really seems like we're on the precipice of a grid-scale battery revolution. 

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YGIFS

YGIFS 19450

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, kevwun said:

I thought it was Life, Liberty and Corporations are People?

I thought Soylent green are people?  Or would it be Soylent green is people?  Is it inherently plural?  
 

I can’t be the only one who is genuinely surprised that Trump hasn’t launched a line of premade food buckets to last you through the Biden apocalypse?  And then it’s back to steaks and wine when he takes back the oval.  Seriously, we are missing so many grifting opportunities.  I know we think we have morals, but we really don’t.  

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Captainant

Captainant 27680

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28 minutes ago, elfenix said:

between compressed air batteries, iron-air batteries, flow batteries, and various forms of gravity battery, it really seems like we're on the precipice of a grid-scale battery revolution. 

Preusming all the angry chuds of MAGAland don't take their freedom blasters to the public infra that represents their hate for progress, yes

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SydneyCarton

SydneyCarton 48108

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37 minutes ago, elfenix said:

there's two statements in my post to which this could conceivably apply.  i'd elaborate if i knew to which you are referring. 

 

between compressed air batteries, iron-air batteries, flow batteries, and various forms of gravity battery, it really seems like we're on the precipice of a grid-scale battery revolution. 

This part:

 

and gas plants have an ongoing operation cost that is higher than wind or solar so the economic incentive to store energy isn't quite

 

As for the rest…cool. Snap your fingers, have next level better tech ready for massive commercial usage tomorrow. Now add 20 years before a government or society accepts its real and adopts it, making it a thing that might push out oil and gas lobbying who will fight tooth and nail to keep their profits. I’m not being a dick, I’m just telling you how it will go. If it were available tomorrow. 

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elfenix

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ok, so, by that, it's that they have to pay for gas.  whereas solar doesn't have to pay for sun and wind doesn't have to pay for wind.  pretty much all the costs on those two types are fixed costs (yes, i'm lumping maintenance into fixed costs), so the variable cost is pretty much 0.  so the price spread between overnight wind when it's driven MWh prices to 0 (or less!) and the $9,000 capped mid afternoon august price is as great as it can get.  i don't know what a gas plant's overnight running cost is, but i know it's not 0.  so, again, the economic incentive isn't quite as high. 

and despite O&G's presence in this state we're by far the largest wind producer in the country.  much of that is due to farmers across the state being used to a surface acre here or there being given over to energy operations and knowing that's making them money.  tell them they'll make *more* money hosting a gravity battery tower for the wind farm that they're already making money on and they'll call up their local congresscritters to make sure that can happen. 

Edited by elfenix
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Fudge Nuggets

Fudge Nuggets 19196

Posted
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2 hours ago, YChang said:

My comment was more a riff on others saying you're ok with it and making me think of the lyrics. However, you keep using that comment like that somehow that it makes our collective situation ok. I find that strange. I mean, why not be part help with change instead of being for the status quo? Maybe you are, that is my assumption of course. 

In his mind everything is ok because everyone can still go out and buy guns guns guns.

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SydneyCarton

SydneyCarton 48108

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4 hours ago, elfenix said:

ok, so, by that, it's that they have to pay for gas.  whereas solar doesn't have to pay for sun and wind doesn't have to pay for wind.  pretty much all the costs on those two types are fixed costs (yes, i'm lumping maintenance into fixed costs), so the variable cost is pretty much 0.  so the price spread between overnight wind when it's driven MWh prices to 0 (or less!) and the $9,000 capped mid afternoon august price is as great as it can get.  i don't know what a gas plant's overnight running cost is, but i know it's not 0.  so, again, the economic incentive isn't quite as high. 

and despite O&G's presence in this state we're by far the largest wind producer in the country.  much of that is due to farmers across the state being used to a surface acre here or there being given over to energy operations and knowing that's making them money.  tell them they'll make *more* money hosting a gravity battery tower for the wind farm that they're already making money on and they'll call up their local congresscritters to make sure that can happen. 

Oh you sweet, summer child. 
 

Those ranchers/farmers vote republican.

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elfenix

elfenix 34271

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5 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Oh you sweet, summer child. 
 

Those ranchers/farmers vote republican.

which means they have pull in this state, unlike the rest of us whose only pull is our own tallywhackers

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elfenix

elfenix 34271

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they'll vote against their economic interest in favor of their (perceived) social interest.  they believe they come out ahead, even if they're shorter on dollars.  and they don't even know they're shorter on dollars because (democrats are actually responsible with the economy and republicans aren't) is attenuated. 

this is not that situation.  this is straight cash homie.  it's a direct economic benefit.  and on direct things they're very self-interested.  the reason we don't have a massive voucher program in this state is because farmers out west know they'd get fucked on schooling.  they're not on ERCOT because they know they'd get fucked.  we have wind because, again, farmers out west are getting paid.  wind farm operator approaches farmer bob and says 'we build this crane thing and you get bigger royalty checks' and farmer bob is in. 

some of the O&G places might come on board as it may be possible to use old wells for gravity batteries:

https://jonnymaserati.github.io/2021/04/01/gravity-battery-well.html

 

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