ERCOT, PUC, and deregulation got us here

[BrazilHorn 6789]

This is seeming to be a "National Guard" Type event is it not?

There have to be a ton of people stuck in their homes running out of food. I would expect the National Guard to have Vehicles that could help road clear, get meals to people etc

Maybe problem is just too widespread to make it worth it.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Penelope is a bigtime accountant and finance person in the energy and related sectors, I believe.

Dismiss her knowledge at your peril.

Yes it appears that OK, AR and LA are cheaper than Texas.  Which is not really surprising as having smaller populations and areas probably reduces the infrastructure cost, they are all petroleum and other hydrocarbon rich, and have to do less transport of the hydrocarbons for power generation.

I understand— Pen seems to have a very good basic understanding of the industry which i appreciate and have learned from.

I’m just trying to understand how what I’ve said (any additional costs will be an extra out of pocket cost/tax, which sucks but might just be the cost of living in TX these days) and agreeing with what you said, in that any additional costs and regulation will be potentially unpopular, while commenting that Texas is already higher than neighboring states who purport to have these insurance measures in place— which was both second hand data from folks on this thread and fleshed out from an actual chart/data)— I’m trying to understand how that makes me “F’ing stupid” or “so f’ing wrong” etc., especially when Penelope’s response to back up her initial logical fallacy (name calling/emotional irrationality) is just another logical fallacy (appeal to authority) because “you can’t trust the data, you have to be in the industry to really know the real deal, lots of ins and outs, etc.” to paraphrase our friend.

And to your point there are probably very logical reasons (some you laid out) Texas is indeed higher than our neighbors (which again I said and was told I’m a dummy), but I think to your point of Texas being higher than average is not taking into account outliers like Alaska and Hawaii, etc.

Lastly, if Penelopes response was essentially because she recognized me as a Trump voter than I question her aptitude (at least EQ) and discernment if she is as you say a true big player in the energy & utilities space— a space where Trump is popular— as those people look more like me than her.

[gmr548 16681]

This is seeming to be a "National Guard" Type event is it not?
There have to be a ton of people stuck in their homes running out of food. I would expect the National Guard to have Vehicles that could help road clear, get meals to people etc
Maybe problem is just too widespread to make it worth it.

The national guard is duty socialism

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

aggy Rick: We'd rather freeze than have the dang gummint tell us what to do. 

Also, usual talking points blaming wind and solar, needz moar cole, etc

 

Quote

WASHINGTON - Former Texas governor Rick Perry suggests that going days without power is a sacrifice Texans should be willing to make if it means keeping federal regulators out of the state’s power grid.

In a blog posted on House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy's website, Perry is quoted responding to the claim that “those watching on the left may see the situation in Texas as an opportunity to expand their top-down, radical proposals.”

“Texans would be without electricity for longer than three days to keep the federal government out of their business,” Perry is quoted as saying. “Try not to let whatever the crisis of the day is take your eye off of having a resilient grid that keeps America safe personally, economically, and strategically.”

Texas’s power grid, run by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, or ERCOT, occupies a unique distinction in the United States in that it is not under the oversight of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission because it does not cross state lines.

That has long been a point of pride with Texas politicians who in the 1990s chose to deregulate the state's power market and allow power companies, not state regulators determine when and how to build and maintain power plants.

That system has fallen under scrutiny in recent days as millions of Texans are left without power following an unusual cold snap. Following a near identical episode a decade ago, federal regulators warned Texas it needed to take steps to better insulate its power plants.

But there is little indication that happened, prompting criticism of ERCOT from Texas Republicans and Democrats alike.

Perry, former president Donald trump's energy secretary, however, blamed the rolling blackouts on the rise of wind and solar energy in Texas.

“If wind and solar is where we’re headed, the last 48 hours ought to give everybody a real pause and go wait a minute,” Perry said. “We need to have a baseload. And the only way you can get a baseload in this country is [with] natural gas, coal, and nuclear.”

That argument has been made by numerous conservatives in the midst of the blackouts. But it does not line up with early reports indicating the majority of the lost generation was natural gas plants not wind turbines, which actually performed better than grid regulators had anticipated, said Michael Webber an energy professor at the University of Texas.

 

[Neonmoon 38130]

Even if I move out of this state, I will forever support and donate money against Abbot and every stupid fucking Republican that runs for governor. 

[Js1 86927]

2 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

aggy Rick: We'd rather freeze than have the dang gummint tell us what to do. 

Also, usual talking points blaming wind and solar, needz moar cole, etc

 

 

Jesus. Fucking. Christ. 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

Just now, Js1 said:

Jesus. Fucking. Christ. 

Lol Get ‘em!

[Doc Sam Beckett 5854]

10 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

This is seeming to be a "National Guard" Type event is it not?

There have to be a ton of people stuck in their homes running out of food. I would expect the National Guard to have Vehicles that could help road clear, get meals to people etc

Maybe problem is just too widespread to make it worth it.

Doesn't every police department have tanks these days? Use those to deliver food, and let the cops dole out a little stick time to keep them satisfied 

[kevwun 16269]

Rick Perry should set an example and spend the next few days camping out on his 10 acre compound in Round Top.

[BrazilHorn 6789]

2 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

Doesn't every police department have tanks these days? Use those to deliver food, and let the cops dole out a little stick time to keep them satisfied 

Good point. There has to be some way to leverage all of their toys to actually benefit citizens in need.

[TwiceHorn 31984]

4 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Rick Perry should set an example and spend the next few days camping out on his 10 acre compound in Round Top.

Maybe he can sled down naggerhead?

[DaysOff 8157]

Rick Perry should set an example and spend the next few days camping out on his 10 acre compound in Round Top.

What's that called again?

[Js1 86927]

10 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Lol Get ‘em!

Glad our resident 12 year old troll keeps chiming in. 

[Js1 86927]

Just now, DaysOff said:

What's that called again?

[Gourmand 7778]

18 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I understand— Pen seems to have a very good basic understanding of the industry which i appreciate and have learned from.

I’m just trying to understand how what I’ve said (any additional costs will be an extra out of pocket cost/tax, which sucks but might just be the cost of living in TX these days) and agreeing with what you said, in that any additional costs and regulation will be potentially unpopular, while commenting that Texas is already higher than neighboring states who purport to have these insurance measures in place— which was both second hand data from folks on this thread and fleshed out from an actual chart/data)— I’m trying to understand how that makes me “F’ing stupid” or “so f’ing wrong” etc., especially when Penelope’s response to back up her initial logical fallacy (name calling/emotional irrationality) is just another logical fallacy (appeal to authority) because “you can’t trust the data, you have to be in the industry to really know the real deal, lots of ins and outs, etc.” to paraphrase our friend.

And to your point there are probably very logical reasons (some you laid out) Texas is indeed higher than our neighbors (which again I said and was told I’m a dummy), but I think to your point of Texas being higher than average is not taking into account outliers like Alaska and Hawaii, etc.

Lastly, if Penelopes response was essentially because she recognized me as a Trump voter than I question her aptitude (at least EQ) and discernment if she is as you say a true big player in the energy & utilities space— a space where Trump is popular— as those people look more like me than her.

Didn't you already try out this golly gee whilikers innocence act on @Bama Chick ?

Stop being a condescending prickhole. And Penelope is right, you're dumb as dirt. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

18 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I understand— Pen seems to have a very good basic understanding of the industry which i appreciate and have learned from.

I’m just trying to understand how what I’ve said (any additional costs will be an extra out of pocket cost/tax, which sucks but might just be the cost of living in TX these days) and agreeing with what you said, in that any additional costs and regulation will be potentially unpopular, while commenting that Texas is already higher than neighboring states who purport to have these insurance measures in place— which was both second hand data from folks on this thread and fleshed out from an actual chart/data)— I’m trying to understand how that makes me “F’ing stupid” or “so f’ing wrong” etc., especially when Penelope’s response to back up her initial logical fallacy (name calling/emotional irrationality) is just another logical fallacy (appeal to authority) because “you can’t trust the data, you have to be in the industry to really know the real deal, lots of ins and outs, etc.” to paraphrase our friend.

And to your point there are probably very logical reasons (some you laid out) Texas is indeed higher than our neighbors (which again I said and was told I’m a dummy), but I think to your point of Texas being higher than average is not taking into account outliers like Alaska and Hawaii, etc.

Lastly, if Penelopes response was essentially because she recognized me as a Trump voter than I question her aptitude (at least EQ) and discernment if she is as you say a true big player in the energy & utilities space— a space where Trump is popular— as those people look more like me than her.

Because you are comparing apples and oranges.  First, both Louisiana and Oklahoma are magnitudes smaller in population than Texas.  Second, neither of those states have significant renewables (which is more expensive than conventional power production) nor do they have a renewable mandate, which Texas does.  Third, both Louisiana and Oklahoma are utility only states, which is a completely different model.

Again, you need to look at Texas prices compared to prices in MISO, NYISO, and PJM if you want to get closer to an apples to apples comparison.

And I think you are stupid because of how obtuse you are.  However, if you voted for Trump and support Trump, welp, that just speaks for itself.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 minute ago, Gourmand said:

Didn't you already try out this golly gee whilikers innocence act on @Bama Chick ?

Stop being a condescending prickhole. And Penelope is right, you're dumb as dirt. 

And You are like a child, wandering into the middle of a movie...

[Wanker Bob 379]

I don't think rolling blackouts during an extreme weather event that doesn't happen even every decade is an unreasonable issue. What isn't forgivable is 1) not notifying the public this will happen and energy needs to be conserved in advance, 2) not doing everything to cut power to unused commercial space and frivolous usage like decorative lighting for skylines and such, and 3) not actually rotating the blackouts where some people get no power interruption and others get it shut off for days. 

Having to make sacrifices in an extreme event isn't unreasonable, but not having any plan in place for efficient and equitable conservation and distribution of the resources in an extreme event is criminal. 

The deregulation has a lot of advantages for consumers as well as producers but it shouldn't be completely void of regulation. There needs to be basic safety net protocols and efficient plans for events like this when they do happen. What happened here is akin to someone losing their job and deciding that's the time to take that $8k trip to Vegas to blow their resources. The waste and lack of planning to manage and distribute efficiently was criminal. Also need to have discussions about using funds to outfit critical and emergency services like hospitals, fire stations, etc with backup generator capability for keeping their most essential power needs met in the event their area is cut off during a rolling blackout. 

[Dr. Teeth 5868]

There was no time for any planning. Not sure you heard, but the Mavericks weren't playing the anthem to an empty arena. Paxton and Abbott had to act fast to make sure that stopped.

[Gourmand 7778]

And You are like a child, wandering into the middle of a movie...

I'm not here to gum up this thread with facts about the energy industry; Penelope is putting on a clinic in that regard.

I'm just here to insult you for being such a goddamn moron as evidenced the parade of stupidity you've left in the CR. And it seems that bama chick had you pegged.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

Just now, Gourmand said:

I'm not here to gum up this thread with facts about the energy industry; Penelope is putting on a clinic in that regard.

I'm just here to insult you for being such a goddamn moron as evidenced the parade of stupidity you've left in the CR. And it seems that bama chick had you pegged.

A child. A movie theater. Gourmand.

[JohnLocke 115]

6 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Because you are comparing apples and oranges.  First, both Louisiana and Oklahoma are magnitudes smaller in population than Texas.  Second, neither of those states have significant renewables (which is more expensive than conventional power production) nor do they have a renewable mandate, which Texas does.  Third, both Louisiana and Oklahoma are utility only states, which is a completely different model.

Again, you need to look at Texas prices compared to prices in MISO, NYISO, and PJM if you want to get closer to an apples to apples comparison.

And I think you are stupid because of how obtuse you are.  However, if you voted for Trump and support Trump, welp, that just speaks for itself.

That's my issue with wind energy in a nutshell.  It's more expensive, and it's unreliable.  We have tried to keep rates low by going all in on natural gas (which is cheap now, but has it's own reliability issues as we are seeing).  We've also been skipping the insurance payments, so to speak, an increasingly risky proposition given our increasingly risky power mix. Now it will require a very expensive fix that we will all pay for.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

24 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Rick Perry should set an example and spend the next few days camping out on his 10 acre compound in Round Top.

Rick Perry is used to calling his yell leader buddies and stripping to their undies and cuddling to stay warm.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

Just now, JohnLocke said:

That's my issue with wind energy in a nutshell.  It's more expensive, and it's unreliable.  We have tried to keep rates low by going all in on natural gas (which is cheap now, but has it's own reliability issues as we are seeing).  We've also been skipping the insurance payments, so to speak, an increasingly risky proposition given our increasingly risky power mix. Now it will require a very expensive fix that we will all pay for.

Wind and solar can be more reliable with energy storage.  Texas, as the leader in wind energy in the US (third in the world I believe), should be helping shepherd the way.  We should be engaging with folks like ole Elon to try and help come up with solutions.  Texas can still be the energy capital of the world post oil and gas, but they are abdicating their place because of shitty state leadership.

[gsoda3 3358]

14 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

 Second, neither of those states have significant renewables (which is more expensive than conventional power production) nor do they have a renewable mandate, which Texas does. 

oklahoma has committed a lot of money to wind energy and a lot of their electricity is generated from wind power.  in 2018 44% of their total energy was produced from wind and solar. 

[Grandioso 2592]

The grid collapsing and people freezing to death is good, actually, because it is making people aware of how dangerous it would be, hypothetically, to have a Green New Deal.  

But in all seriousness, this is making me aware of how dumb Abbott is. When Rick Perry left I was like, bring on the next right wing nut, but at least he can't be that dumb. Abbott is just not competent. 

[Goredho 17627]

4 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

That's my issue with wind energy in a nutshell.  It's more expensive, and it's unreliable...

All innovations are expensive and unreliable early.  The development of the airplane didn't end with this (obviously engineered by an aggy).

[Updawg 2378]

Absolutely zero leadership out of anyone high up. Complete failure.

Maybe if companies start to re-evaluate Texas they will wake up, but I doubt it.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

7 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

oklahoma has committed a lot of money to wind energy and a lot of their electricity is generated from wind power.  in 2018 44% of their total energy was produced from wind and solar. 

I stand corrected on the renewables front. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[gsoda3 3358]

2 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I stand corrected.  

do you know if subsidies are usually calculated in per unit energy cost?  

[Pato del Muerto 53330]

Has there been any discussion on the seemingly haphazard way the blackouts have been instituted?  I can believe and understand that taking down city circuits that draw the most demand is more efficient than shutting off 9 farmers in van zandt county, but how is it not organized in groups and waves that are efficient and predictable?  Where are the shutdown points?  Is it not all controlled remotely via central command or network of regional command stations?  
the neighborhoods I’ve read posts about where half gets power back and half doesn’t, why aren’t they alternating?

is it that difficult for each city to be split into X groups, and roll power to each group one at a time for an hour or two?  That way each group would have power for an hour or two then go without for (X-1)*hours of power while the other groups get their time?  That would not only give people enough power to maintain some semblance of climate control and cooking ability, but it would be a schedule that could be planned for. 
 

also, any functions that are deemed untouchable like city services buildings and hospitals and such should have emergency generators- because if they cannot lose power under any circumstances then they need to be prepared for unintentional power failure. Aaaaaaand if they have emergency generators, they should be able to handle some of the load of rolling blackouts, even if they aren’t as frequent as the residential.   I’d hope that if you told a police station, water treatment facility, jail, or hospital that they will lose power for 2 hours starting the next day from 7-9 pm they could accommodate that, or reply about the robustness of their backup capabilities (we have enough fuel to run our gennys for an hour only). 
 

this bullshit where some people are dark for 24-60 hours straight is unacceptable, and it doesn’t appear to be localized to any particular metro area in Texas. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Pato del Muerto

[GTX Horn 1725]

The new talking point I’ve seen now that reports indicate the bulk of the outages are from thermal plants going offline is that the problem is that we spent money to invest in renewable energy instead of upgrading thermal options. Some people just want to move the goalposts to fit their ideological narrative of “renewable energy bad, fossil fuels good”.

[4th&Five 41902]

[Mole 4338]

20 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

I'm not here to gum up this thread with facts about the energy industry; Penelope is putting on a clinic in that regard.

I'm just here to insult you for being such a goddamn moron as evidenced the parade of stupidity you've left in the CR. And it seems that bama chick had you pegged.

Donkey is a NowThis sock?

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

1 minute ago, gsoda3 said:

do you know if subsidies are usually calculated in per unit energy cost?  

Most likely not.  The majority of the subsidies are Income Tax Credits given to qualifying facilities.  And those generally go to offset the cost of building the unit.  

 

[Nivek 17330]

IAnd it seems that bama chick had you pegged.

Take it to IPIHB!

[High Plains Drifter 11160]

 

Can we just fucking crowdsource this donkey moron please?

 

[disgustipated 39]

How much of this is a failure of imagination?  Its clear that the tools available to mitigate this disaster were not sufficient as well as the scenario planning.  With the loss of generation, I cant help but think about the challenger o rings failure.  No getting around weather being one of, if arguably not the most significant variable driving demand, but in a world that is seeing much more extreme temperature on both ends, it seems clear that the current design has areas that need improvement.  I'm not sure a capacity market is a cure all, but definitely seems to be something that should have been implemented long ago.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

6 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Most likely not.  The majority of the subsidies are Income Tax Credits given to qualifying facilities.  And those generally go to offset the cost of building the unit.  

 

Also, to add on, I believe they also get some nice accelerated depreciation, so that also helps out.

[Aqua Buddha 14782]

30 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

I'm not here to gum up this thread with facts about the energy industry; Penelope is putting on a clinic in that regard.

I'm just here to insult you for being such a goddamn moron as evidenced the parade of stupidity you've left in the CR. And it seems that [b]bama chick had you pegged.[/b]

Maybe that's his fetish.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Aqua Buddha

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

1 minute ago, disgustipated said:

How much of this is a failure of imagination?  Its clear that the tools available to mitigate this disaster were not sufficient as well as the scenario planning.  With the loss of generation, I cant help but think about the challenger o rings failure.  No getting around weather being one of, if arguably not the most significant variable driving demand, but in a world that is seeing much more extreme temperature on both ends, it seems clear that the current design has areas that need improvement.  I'm not sure a capacity market is a cure all, but definitely seems to be something that should have been implemented long ago.  

Capacity market would be a good first step.  You also have to remove any price caps from the energy market itself (i.e. the 9,000 per hour cap that is in place now).  I would also like to see more ancillary services come online to help with these.  Customers could sell the right for ERCOT to take their energy offline in the case of a grid emergency.  These already exist in ERCOT (Balancing Up Loads), but I am not sure that individual retail customers can take advantage of this. I believe in PJM they can, so why not monetize that as much as possible.  Hell, individual houses (i.e. retail customers) who have distributed generation (i.e. solar panels or a wind turbine) and are producing more than they can consume should be able to sell into the grid as well (I know there was talk that they could, but I am not sure if they can actually).  

Texas as a state needs to start investing heavily into battery tech and energy storage research.  There is zero reason they should not be leading in this given their investment in wind.

[High Plains Drifter 11160]

 

I live in Texas, have solar panels, and sell back onto the grid any excess. My provider (Green Mountain) pays me the same rate that it charges me. My total electric bill last year was 7 dollars and change.

 

[kevwun 16269]

I know someone who put in solar panels.  I do believe they sell excess power to their provider now.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

2 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I live in Texas, have solar panels, and sell back onto the grid any excess. My provider (Green Mountain) pays me the same rate that it charges me. My total electric bill last year was 7 dollars and change.

 

 

Just now, kevwun said:

I know someone who put in solar panels.  I do believe they sell excess power to their provider now.

Good to know.  I thought you were able to, but I wasn't 100% sure.  My dad has flirted with solar panels or a small wind turbine for years.  He has the perfect setup for it.

[Hagbard Celine 11157]

13 hours ago, F250 said:

I consulted for SCADA/ICS and Smart Grid tech for a few years and I can say without a doubt that the dumbest motherfuckers I ever encountered were ERCOT.

Me in just about every conversation I had with ERCOT...

they are given their jobs and hold them with the understanding that they will not make trouble for the for-profit-only campaign contributors.

[Born to Run 6598]

This is amazing, but how the hell do you lose the food in your freezer due to power outages during......a freeze.

my small town brother and mom lost all the food in her fridge...

why didn't you put it outside???

[Hagbard Celine 11157]

these fuckers on the live presser are LYING THEIR ASSES OFF

q: how much did wind and solar contribute to loss of 40% of generation?

(narrator: we know that it's less than 5% of the total)

a: it's difficult to say we'll have to figure it out

a: reduction in solar!  clouds!  half the wind turbines! for coal and nuclear and gas units we don't know all the details there's some limited reporting once we get the power back on then we'll start the investigations instruments froze up, natural gas system well heads frozen today we've seen a water problem in the plant and icy roads!!!

THEY WILL NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION

[Updawg 2378]

Yep. Definitely a slant against renewables and downplaying thermal

[Pato del Muerto 53330]

10 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I live in Texas, have solar panels, and sell back onto the grid any excess. My provider (Green Mountain) pays me the same rate that it charges me. My total electric bill last year was 7 dollars and change.

 

Do you get to use your own energy or does it have to pass thru a meter into their system and you receive their power through a metered delivery line?

 

[Updawg 2378]

They know they are dead men walking and trying to save their ass