Bitcoin and other crypto-The CR thread

[Nice Guy Eddie 13539]

Is Vivek becoming an open Trump supporter in hopes of receiving a cabinet post?

[Neonmoon 38130]

43 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Is Vivek becoming an open Trump supporter in hopes of receiving a cabinet post?

Vivek has always been a shameless Trump grifter. 

His entire business model is pump & dump of worthless medical drugs, so it's appropriate he's a big bitcoin fan. 

[Bullneck 19315]

3 hours ago, Hal Finney said:

This interview is from 2022. She is giddy over it.

 

 

She's talking about digital U.S. Dollars.  Not fake bullshit energy consuming money for drug dealers and other crooks.

 

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Is Vivek becoming an open Trump supporter in hopes of receiving a cabinet post?

Secretary of the Treasury

Edited January 18 by Bullneck

[Hal Finney 174]

11 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

She's talking about digital U.S. Dollars.  Not fake bullshit energy consuming money for drug dealers and other crooks.

You slacker! You forgot terrorists!  come on, man

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

 

Guess what? Now that Trump signaled his opposition to CBDCs other idiots will mobilize to defend and advocate for them. Line up Neon! It's your time

 

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Imagine believing that a man who openly states that he wants to pull the licenses of broadcasters who don't broadcast his speeches (as just one example of his open plan to impose an authoritarian state) will ALSO be a champion of freedom and liberty and no government interference/action.

Imagine being that fucking stupid.

 

Trump only says what he thinks benefits him politically. He sees the left lining up against financial freedom, privacy and innovation. Naturally he's going to go opposite them for now.

 

 

[Brisketexan 105569]

23 minutes ago, Hal Finney said:

He sees the left lining up against financial freedom, privacy and innovation.

That....is....fantastic.  Bravo.  I hadn't had my post-lunch chuckle yet, this got me here.  Reading the original tweet, with its usual litany of "crypto solves EVERYTHING!" and "bring back the gold standard!" and "end the Fed!"  Why don't all these people just save everyone time and just type "Zerohedge" and be done with it?

Fucking laughable.

[wildcat09 29453]

Don't engage with GRU Horn man, just neg him. 

[Hal Finney 174]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

That....is....fantastic.  Bravo.  I hadn't had my post-lunch chuckle yet, this got me here.  Reading the original tweet, with its usual litany of "crypto solves EVERYTHING!" and "bring back the gold standard!" and "end the Fed!"  Why don't all these people just save everyone time and just type "Zerohedge" and be done with it?

Fucking laughable.

I was going to type a detailed response, but really all that's required is OK, boomer.

[956 Worldwide 34909]

3 hours ago, Bullneck said:

She's talking about digital U.S. Dollars.  Not fake bullshit energy consuming money for drug dealers and other crooks.

 

Secretary of the Treasury

Always was the play. Vivek’s entire candidacy was to do two things:

1. Help siphon away votes and attention to kneecap any real Trump competitor 

2. Shift the GOP debate onto Kremlin-friendly terms.

I will let the board connect the dots as to who he is and what is happening with the GOP. 

[Pescado_Rojo 19453]

22 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Don't engage with GRU Horn man, just neg him. 

I don't know what that dude is getting paid to keep coming back here and getting sand kicked in his face, but it's probably not enough. 

[jimmyjazz 46470]

22 hours ago, Hal Finney said:

He sees the left lining up against financial freedom, privacy and innovation.

MagaLULZ

[Pam Cummings 9696]

21 hours ago, Hal Finney said:

I was going to type a detailed response, but really all that's required is OK, boomer.

You aren't a serious person. Go away.

[Hal Finney 174]

On 1/19/2024 at 12:29 PM, Pam Cummings said:

You aren't a serious person. Go away.

Brisket’s level of understanding of the space is unserious. 

 

On 1/19/2024 at 11:54 AM, Pescado_Rojo said:

I don't know what that dude is getting paid to keep coming back here and getting sand kicked in his face, but it's probably not enough. 

I do it for free! 

In real life I’m almost never told I'm wrong so it's refreshing in a way. 

It helps me think through things to traverse an adversarial space on the interwebs. 

 

On 1/18/2024 at 4:29 PM, 956 Worldwide said:

Always was the play. Vivek’s entire candidacy was to do two things:

1. Help siphon away votes and attention to kneecap any real Trump competitor 

2. Shift the GOP debate onto Kremlin-friendly terms.

I will let the board connect the dots as to who he is and what is happening with the GOP. 

You think Vivek is a Kremlin plant?

I think he's just a fast talking opportunist. 

[wildcat09 29453]

Hal Finney is probably a human trafficker.

[wildcat09 29453]

Crypto Mining Consumes a Mind-Boggling 2% of U.S. Electricity:

Quote

Just how much electricity does cryptocurrency mining use? It could be over 2% of all electricity in the United States, according to a preliminary estimate released by the Energy Information Administration. More specifically, “annual electricity use from cryptocurrency mining probably represents from 0.6% to 2.3% of U.S. electricity consumption.”

Using data from the Cambridge Centre for Alternative Finance on Bitcoin, specifically, the EIA estimated that, at least as of January 2022, almost 38% of all Bitcoin mining was occurring in the U.S., which let it produce a range of estimates for Bitcoin mining’s electricity usage, ranging from 25 terawatt-hours to 91 terawatt-hours — about the same amount of electricity consumed by around 3 million to around 6 million homes — or roughly the electricity consumption of Utah or West Virginia. That wide range is due to the imprecise nature of the measurements, which are based on how active a crypocurrency mining operation would be based on the price of Bitcoin and other factors. Global electricity consumption based on these estimates, the EIA said, was “about the same as total electricity consumption in Greece or Australia.”

So why is Bitcoin so power hungry?

In some deep sense, Bitcoin is electricity. The cryptocurrency is “mined” — i.e. new Bitcoins are generated — through what’s called a proof of work system, essentially a way of proving that a computer (or, in reality, lots of computers) have done a lot of computation. This computational work maintains the system as a whole, and thus the new Bitcoins are a reward for doing this decentralized maintenance. (Lots of other cryptocurrencies also use a proof of work system the mint new coins, the notable exception being Ethereum, which last year switched to what’s called a “proof of stake” system that uses less energy. This, Ethereum leadership said, makes the blockchain “green.”)

All that computation is incredibly energy intensive, which is why we see crypto miners glom onto sources of cheap energy. Sometimes the cheapest energy they can use is not using energy at all — Bitcoin mines in Texas are part of a demand management program run by the state’s electricity market, ERCOT, where they can collect hefty payments for not operating when electricity demand is high.

This energy consumption is a frequent point of criticism for advocates, activists, and lawmakers who are skeptical of cryptocurrency and earlier this week, the EIA said it would start collecting its own data on cryptocurrency mining.

So far, the EIA has found 137 cryptocurrency mining facilities, with several of the largest ones located in Texas. But this was just done by scanning publicly available data. The EIA said earlier this week that it will be conducting a “mandatory survey” to better understand crypto’s energy demands.

 

[Bullneck 19315]

On 2/28/2021 at 9:20 PM, GRHorn said:

We already have a thread in the markets forum, but it’s mostly a handful of enthusiasts going back and forth with new info. That, and new posters asking how they can buy some etc. I’m curious what thoughts all the serious people on this forum have on Bitcoin. 

Before its recent pullback the value of the Bitcoin network crossed over $1 Trillion dollars. Although still relatively small in terms of market size it seems to be reaching a size of geopolitical significance. Large money managers, high net worth individuals, pension funds, insurance companies, publicly traded corporations are all getting exposure to the asset. One Senator, a small caucus in the House, and the richest man on Earth are advocates for it. 

Bitcoin is both complex and simple at the same time, but there’s two main aspects that fascinate me and imo give it massive tailwinds. 
 

1) It’s the first asset in history whose supply cannot be increased in response to an increase in demand. There’s a set emission schedule that cannot be changed. 
 

This has massive implications as whatever value you have stored in it cannot be arbitrarily diluted by outside forces or any centralized entity. As MMTers gain more influence and stimulus continues indefinitely inflation potential will rise, but now people are more easily able to protect their savings. Given that inflation is most harmful to people on the lower ends of the economic spectrum, bitcoin has the potential to actually help combat inequality. 
 

2) Decentralization- The trend towards more centralization of money and power has been accelerating. Bitcoin’s network is decentralized. No one entity controls it. Anyone can use it, or not, as they please. Transactions cannot be censored. As politicians and big tech continue to censor people’s speech or their ability to earn a living, more and more people will look to a system that is open like Bitcoin. 

Of course governments don’t like losing any control, but especially over people’s money. Many governments have already attempted to “ban bitcoin” with poor results. Soon the US Govt will likely take their shot and try to squash it out. I think that’s misguided and ultimately futile. 

As a footnote, the price as of this post is $46,494. 

Come for the fraud, stay for the energy use!

Footnote: it dropped to 17,000 a year and a half later.  

Edited February 3 by Bullneck

[MonkeyDoughnut 10439]

On 2/2/2024 at 2:06 PM, wildcat09 said:

Crypto Mining Consumes a Mind-Boggling 2% of U.S. Electricity:

 

And how much wind turbine curtailment is done each year? Or how much more would it be done without the miners.

Miners would love access to more wasted energy if they could get it.

As far as grid stability goes, miners are the next best thing to battery storage in being able to shed load or absorb generation instantaneously.

[jimmyjazz 46470]

8 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

As far as grid stability goes, miners are the next best thing to battery storage in being able to shed load or absorb generation instantaneously.

Wait, what?  Bitcoin miners are going to actively modulate their power burn to accommodate supply fluctuations?

[Biff Tannen 45763]

7 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

And how much wind turbine curtailment is done each year? Or how much more would it be done without the miners.

Miners would love access to more wasted energy if they could get it.

As far as grid stability goes, miners are the next best thing to battery storage in being able to shed load or absorb generation instantaneously.

Wait a minute.  Are you arguing that bitcoin miners are an energy sink?  I remember this argument with natural gas flaring, which actually had me thinking. But wind turbines?  

[MonkeyDoughnut 10439]

8 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Wait, what?  Bitcoin miners are going to actively modulate their power burn to accommodate supply fluctuations?

Yes, and get paid to do so, just like other more traditional companies do, but mining is much easier to control.

8 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Wait a minute.  Are you arguing that bitcoin miners are an energy sink?  I remember this argument with natural gas flaring, which actually had me thinking. But wind turbines?  

Correct. Miners rely on cheap energy. If you've got excess that would go to waste, they'll take if off your hands.  It's the old story like Norway exporting all its excess hydro power in the form of aluminum since you can't store electricity (cheaply yet) so they power aluminum plants with it at near zero cost.  

Now as to utility of Bitcoin, yeah arguments are there for many that it doesn't produce any value. I do also personally believe it raises overall power costs slightly in the short term though, but provides a service of making the grid more stable while we bring more renewable generation online.

Edited February 4 by MonkeyDoughnut

[Captainant 27970]

23 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Now as to utility of Bitcoin, yeah arguments are there for many that it doesn't produce any value. I do also personally believe it raises overall power costs slightly in the short term though, but provides a service of making the grid more stable while we bring more renewable generation online.

Why the fuck are we paying these leeches too turn off their imported Chinese crypto mining shit? Fuck em, give them the public deal that normal people get

[Neonmoon 38130]

We just could find a solution that doesn’t involve grifters solving math equations to help their Ponzi scheme 

Like…connect the grid to other states like goddamed adults

[Nice Guy Eddie 13539]

Bitcoin mining will drop in April when the payout drops in half as originally planned. Unless the price also doubles, and then everything stays the same.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10439]

21 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Why the fuck are we paying these leeches too turn off their imported Chinese crypto mining shit? Fuck em, give them the public deal that normal people get

Short answer is because power companies are in the business of selling power and they profit off miners using their power by multiples of what they would might have to pay them to turn it off.

Not paying them to turn off doesn't just fuck them, it fucks all of us. They're locked into to fixed rates for power too.

[Captainant 27970]

2 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Short answer is because power companies are in the business of selling power and they profit off miners using their power by multiples of what they would might have to pay them to turn it off.

Not paying them to turn off doesn't just fuck them, it fucks all of us. They're locked into to fixed rates for power too.

They're driving up the prices up for the rest of us by being a hard floor for producers. And they're PAYING these specious consumers to NOT consume? That's not a free fucking market.

That's an oligopoly using public money to prop up the price of crypto so that crypto pukes and north koreans and russians can launder their money. 

 

A better use of those tens of millions of dollars would be infrastructure improvements like line capacity improvements and storage investments. Not giving hand outs to imported mining operations. 

[BrickHorn 18318]

1 hour ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Correct. Miners rely on cheap energy. If you've got excess that would go to waste, they'll take if off your hands.  It's the old story like Norway exporting all its excess hydro power in the form of aluminum since you can't store electricity (cheaply yet) so they power aluminum plants with it at near zero cost. 

Except that aluminum is useful and Norway’s solution prevents waste rather than perpetuates it. 

 

[Biff Tannen 45763]

13 hours ago, Captainant said:

They're driving up the prices up for the rest of us by being a hard floor for producers. And they're PAYING these specious consumers to NOT consume? That's not a free fucking market.

That's an oligopoly using public money to prop up the price of crypto so that crypto pukes and north koreans and russians can launder their money. 

 

A better use of those tens of millions of dollars would be infrastructure improvements like line capacity improvements and storage investments. Not giving hand outs to imported mining operations. 

This is true even if you assume the mining operations are domestic. 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10439]

On 2/4/2024 at 8:15 AM, Captainant said:

They're driving up the prices up for the rest of us by being a hard floor for producers. And they're PAYING these specious consumers to NOT consume? That's not a free fucking market.

That's an oligopoly using public money to prop up the price of crypto so that crypto pukes and north koreans and russians can launder their money. 

 

A better use of those tens of millions of dollars would be infrastructure improvements like line capacity improvements and storage investments. Not giving hand outs to imported mining operations. 

Those tens of millions of dollars come from the Miners themselves. You don't have those millions without them.  I promise you can get the same deal from your provider if you lock in tens of millions of power purchases for the year.

As for "hard floor", it's more like a "larger cushion" for the grid.  It they didn't exist, that "extra" generation wouldn't be scheduled. It wouldn't be available with say a cheaper coal or nuke plant ramp up. It would require paying a high priced peaker plant to jump online quickly to correct instability issues. With the miners the extra generation is scheduled in with cheapest available. In times of instability their consumption can be readily reduced and is much safer than rolling blackouts.

None of this gets at issue of needing infrastructure upgrades, specifically high voltage transmission from wind areas to metros.  That is going to take government help as free market economics isn't going to get anyone to step up and pay for it. There is no economic incentive for any parties in the system in adding the needed transmission lines. Could easily be done at the Texas level..but well..yeah.  Feds are best bet at this point... but again don't see current state leaders taking kindly to any federal help.

[Captainant 27970]

Just now, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Those tens of millions of dollars come from the Miners themselves. You don't have those millions without them.  I promise you can get the same deal from your provider if you lock in tens of millions of power purchases for the year.

As for "hard floor", it's more like a "larger cushion" for the grid.  It they didn't exist, that "extra" generation wouldn't be scheduled. It wouldn't be available with say a cheaper coal or nuke plant ramp up. It would require paying a high priced peaker plant to jump online quickly to correct instability issues. With the miners the extra generation is scheduled in with cheapest available. In times of instability their consumption can be readily reduced and is much safer than rolling blackouts.

None of this gets at issue of needing infrastructure upgrades, specifically high voltage transmission from wind areas to metros.  That is going to take government help as free market economics isn't going to get anyone to step up and pay for it. There is no economic incentive for any parties in the system in adding the needed transmission lines. Could easily be done at the Texas level..but well..yeah.  Feds are best bet at this point... but again don't see current state leaders taking kindly to any federal help.

I'm not sure the position you're taking here. Are you saying that we're lucky the bitcoin miners came from China to buy our abundant coal power and get hand outs, because otherwise the grid wouldn't get funding? And we should be thankful for it?

[wildcat09 29453]

31 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I'm not sure the position you're taking here. Are you saying that we're lucky the bitcoin miners came from China to buy our abundant coal power and get hand outs, because otherwise the grid wouldn't get funding? And we should be thankful for it?

He’s just saying we have to welcome and promote an industry that exists to enable  rampant fraud, theft, and human trafficking (and all sorts of other related criminal activity) on a previously impossible scale because there’s no other way for us to adequately provide enough electricity for ourselves.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10439]

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

He’s just saying we have to welcome and promote an industry that exists to enable  rampant fraud, theft, and human trafficking (and all sorts of other related criminal activity) on a previously impossible scale because there’s no other way for us to adequately provide enough electricity for ourselves.

Last report in 2022 was 0.24% was tied to criminal activity after doubling from prior year, mainly from ransomware/online scams etc.  Either way, it's not going away even if we "ban" miners in the US. I don't think it's in our best interest to let other countries control the industry.

If Texas wants to improve it's grid, make new miners locate in wind generation areas and profit share with ISO such that a percentage of their revenue goes directly to more renewable infrastructure and transmission build out that benefits everyone.

[Neonmoon 38130]

 

2 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Last report in 2022 was 0.24% was tied to criminal activity after doubling from prior year, mainly from ransomware/online scams etc.  Either way, it's not going away even if we "ban" miners in the US. I don't think it's in our best interest to let other countries control the industry.

If Texas wants to improve it's grid, make new miners locate in wind generation areas and profit share with ISO such that a percentage of their revenue goes directly to more renewable infrastructure and transmission build out that benefits everyone.

 I thought crypt was decentralized. How could we control it? I mean, the US definitely wants to make sure and corner the child sex trafficking and meth market

It's so weird that other states don't have to fund scams to have affordable electricity and a stable grid. 

It's a mystery how they do it. 

[wildcat09 29453]

*performs 1,000,000 wash trades* "See, more and more people are using it for *legitimate purposes!"

 

*legitimate meaning "purely speculative and of no social utility whatsoever"

[Captainant 27970]

1 hour ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

If Texas wants to improve it's grid, make new miners locate in wind generation areas and profit share with ISO such that a percentage of their revenue goes directly to more renewable infrastructure and transmission build out that benefits everyone.

Fuck no my dude, that does NOT """benefit everyone""". We are WASTING that energy on propping up a shitty cryptoponzi, and wasting the free money that we are giving them, rather than investing it into public infrastructure. 

These PUBLIC UTILITY companies should not be seeking to maximize their profit. They should be seeing to maximize their UTILITY to the PUBLIC.

 

Fucks sake. You've got terminal libertarian brain.

[jimmyjazz 46470]

The fact that the Texas grid is busting at the seams with demand and very little excess capacity would seem to argue against catering to this bullshit ponzi scheme that is essentially a global money laundering enterprise.  But, here we are.

[wildcat09 29453]

If we want to improve the grid we should burn down the crypto mines and use the heat from the fires for something actually useful. 

[BrickHorn 18318]

9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The fact that the Texas grid is busting at the seams with demand and very little excess capacity would seem to argue against catering to this bullshit ponzi scheme that is essentially a global money laundering enterprise.  But, here we are.

Shocking that the Free Market Cult can only find free market solutions. Which of course aren’t solutions, but instead merely compound the harms. 

Crypto mines burning energy for useless shit = batteries. Ha. Fucking morons. 

[atomheartbevo 90041]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

The fact that the Texas grid is busting at the seams with demand and very little excess capacity would seem to argue against catering to this bullshit ponzi scheme that is essentially a global money laundering enterprise.  But, here we are.

Hey look man, we have to send money to China, they are hurting, and this is the easiest way to do it.  Same with Russia.

[Cum Rocket 136]

Interesting soundbites here. 
 

 

 

”I’m not sure that I’d want to take it away at this point.”

[Biff Tannen 45763]

you are so god damn weird

[Fudge Nuggets 19276]

Con man conning those that want to be conned.  Interesting.

[Bullneck 19315]

[UpperWestside 6216]

Why has this stuff not been banned yet? This is not real currency. It has no value and is one of the biggest grifts this side of what TFG and his fellow criminals do. This is still a gigantic pyramid scheme that should be punishable by time in prison for the clowns still trying to “sell” the public on the benefit of owning fake money.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

Why has this stuff not been banned yet? This is not real currency. It has no value and is one of the biggest grifts this side of what TFG and his fellow criminals do. This is still a gigantic pyramid scheme that should be punishable by time in prison for the clowns still trying to “sell” the public on the benefit of owning fake money.

This is almost as lol as the idea that we're doing something good/smart by subsidizing BTC miners to not mine... which is just asinine. 

[UpperWestside 6216]

14 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Con man conning those that want to be conned.  Interesting.

Anyone propping this garbage up belongs in prison. The con is obvious with crypto. You have to either have the IQ of a howler monkey or be someone that is susceptible to being scammed. Watching people spend real money to obtain fake money is about as good an investment as buying a bunch of beanie babies 25 years ago.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Anyone propping this garbage up belongs in prison. The con is obvious with crypto. You have to either have the IQ of a howler monkey or be someone that is susceptible to being scammed. Watching people spend real money to obtain fake money is about as good an investment as buying a bunch of beanie babies 25 years ago.

I'd encourage you to look into it more. Are there conmen here? Absolutely, as there is anywhere in the history of man. Is the price appreciation signs of a bubble? Yep. It's not rational for an asset to rise this much, this fast.

Is there value in a monetary asset that isn't tied to a government and has limited supply? You better believe it.  

[wildcat09 29453]

Just now, FirstTimeCaller said:

I'd encourage you to look into it more. Are there conmen here? Absolutely, as there is anywhere in the history of man. Is the price appreciation signs of a bubble? Yep. It's not rational for an asset to rise this much, this fast.

Is there value in a monetary asset that isn't tied to a government and has limited supply? You better believe it.  

The 6th Street Journal thread with the idiots and grifters is that way ---------------------------->

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The 6th Street Journal thread with the idiots and grifters is that way ---------------------------->

Yes, because my take was just completely out there. Give me a break. 

[wildcat09 29453]

3 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Yes, because my take was just completely out there. Give me a break. 

I'm going to create a new cryptocurrency called wildcatcoin and I'm only going to make 100 of them. Do you want to buy one for $1,000,000?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm going to create a new cryptocurrency called wildcatcoin and I'm only going to make 100 of them. Do you want to buy one for $1,000,000?

No. There isn't a large and growing base of people that believe it has value, therefore it's worthless. I don't put money in any of the alt coins and my investment in bitcoin is a tiny portion of my net worth. But there is something there and I'm not sure why people seem to have such strong feelings against bitcoin. They seem angry when it rises. 

I'd be more than happy to say, I was wrong on it should the price drop 90%+ and stay there. I'd be more than happy to say I was wrong should there be more coins minted than the 21 million. Until then, I think there is something there and don't mind having some exposure to it. 

To give you a rhetorical in return, at what price would you believe that maybe there actually is some sort of value with Bitcoin? 

[wildcat09 29453]

8 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

No. There isn't a large and growing base of people that believe it has value, therefore it's worthless. I don't put money in any of the alt coins and my investment in bitcoin is a tiny portion of my net worth. But there is something there and I'm not sure why people seem to have such strong feelings against bitcoin. They seem angry when it rises. 

I'd be more than happy to say, I was wrong on it should the price drop 90%+ and stay there. I'd be more than happy to say I was wrong should there be more coins minted than the 21 million. Until then, I think there is something there and don't mind having some exposure to it. 

To give you a rhetorical in return, at what price would you believe that maybe there actually is some sort of value with Bitcoin? 

So what you're saying is that if I told enough lies to enough people to convince them that wildcatcoin was actually worth a lot, then you'd be interested.

I'm personally angry about Bitcoin because we're letting bitcoin miners waste absurd amounts of energy that would be reckless even if we didn't have a shitty electric grid, we fucking pay them to stop when we need the power they're otherwise using, its markets are controlled by fraudulent actors that exploit vulnerable people, and it enables human trafficking and child exploitation on an otherwise-impossible scale. All for something that is not actually useful as a currency and has no inherent value whatsoever.