Lawyers going to Lawyer - Class Action vs UT

[BurntOrange&White 39933]

 

 

 

[Guest Lobo]

Class Action lawsuit, EoT donor story, legislature threatening to lower funding yet again this cycle. 

Looks like us Longhorns picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.  

[XYZ 2154]

THE University of Texas at Austin, you fucking asshole.

[phdhorn 6224]

That's not going to get very far; the ramifications across the country would be unworkable.  But I like the idea.

My son's engineering tuition went up eleven percent when the pandemic hit.  That's a huge bump.  I wrote the engineering school to ask wtf since students weren't really even on campus at all.  Their answers were a lot of hot air/crickets.  They never did give me even half a good answer as to why they would need more money, rather than less.  And since the infrastructure has essentially been there to do online classes for a few years, they didn't need much money for that.  And it's bee pretty strongly proven now that students of all ages do markedly worse on average with online classes vs. in person.  So I'm paying a boatload more for less. My son also said he and his friends think it's completely bogus and a bit of gouging.  This is of course open to argument, but nah, they're right.

The lawsuit has a point - online education is worse than in-person in general.  But...

... the lawsuit is bogus because UT didn't facilitate the conditions which made the "inferior" education possible; they reacted to an "Act of God" or whatnot.  They didn't intend to provide an inferior education and couldn't have really done anything else.  So the lawsuit will of course sink, and probably rightly so.

But I sure would love an explanation of why they had to charge more. 

[crash_davis 23113]

I support this lawsuit. I'm paying for two kids to take zoom classes at Texas. 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

Just now, crash_davis said:

I support this lawsuit. I'm paying for two kids to take zoom classes at Texas. 

T&P

[Enchubben 5510]

11% seems like a lot, but perhaps there was a lot of infrastructure spend to get professors and admin the ability to work remote. 

At my company last March there was an immediate expense of home office equipment like chairs, monitors, printers (wtf?), and stipends for other random shit.  And that is before you consider things like extensive cleaning that had to be done, or software/technology purchases. 

It's not like because the students aren't going in person, they don't have to pay rent or something.  All of that said - I agree- poor taste that they would choose to increase cost to students during a pandemic.

[BurntOrange&White 39933]

14 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

I support this lawsuit. I'm paying for two kids to take zoom classes at Texas. 

But even if they were on camput the quality of their education is dependent upon more factors than just University of Texas. 

 

IMO this is going to come down to sovereign immunity, especially during a global pandemic. Someone said in the sub-tweets that the short term gain of this law suit if it is successful will be diminished when tuition gets greatly increased to make up for it when regular campus life is restored.

Edited March 2, 2021 by BurntOrange&White

[4th_and_18 687]

We spent a lot of money to upgrade classrooms to do hybrid learning. When classes started the students chose online instead of in person. We kept track of the numbers to show this. We canceled the hybrid and went pure online in most cases because of this. On top of the expenses to upgrade classrooms we spent a lot on technology upgrades for faculty. Upgraded webcams, laptops, iPads, doc cams, recording studio time, fucking holographic technology for the MBA program, the list goes on and on. Many of the faculty are teaching twice for each hybrid course so we had to reduce the number of students per course and hire more faculty. On top of that the faculty needed more support to answer emails and grade more online assignments. So we hired more undergraduate students to help out. This lawsuit is going to die a quick painful death.

[Hanrahan 1306]

This lawsuit is going to run head first into governmental immunity.

[Beau Vine 54230]

41 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

11% seems like a lot, but perhaps there was a lot of infrastructure spend to get professors and admin the ability to work remote. 

[52-80 19159]

1 hour ago, BurntOrange&White said:

 

 

 

 

pffft, sleazy lawsuits, these kids never wanted to show up to class anyway.  college is just for trying to bang the girl in your study group.

[clapclapclap 9000]

42 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

This lawsuit is going to run head first into governmental immunity.

Does it require 2 shots or 1?

[El Diablo 4232]

There's probably a couple hundred class action lawsuits against universities both public and private right now due to COVID. It started somewhere and it's changing the world! 

[gsoda3 3262]

37 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

i think you teach at texas state, did you not get any support?  my neighbor's a professor at acc, they each got issued a laptop at least.  my cousin teaches at cal, faculty got laptops and a pretty nice stipend to set up a home office and students who needed it were able to check out computers from the school (cal had to buy a couple thousand thinkpads).  considering that's just the stuff i hear about i'm sure there's much more spending they had to do (new faculty, online classrooms, etc).  

[BabaYaga 15299]

5 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

i think you teach at texas state, did you not get any support?  my neighbor's a professor at acc, they each got issued a laptop at least.  my cousin teaches at cal, faculty got laptops and a pretty nice stipend to set up a home office and students who needed it were able to check out computers from the school (cal had to buy a couple thousand thinkpads).  considering that's just the stuff i hear about i'm sure there's much more spending they had to do (new faculty, online classrooms, etc).  

Nothing cited here even comes close to justifying an 11% bump.  Which of course becomes the new baseline for the next increases, and so on, and so on.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

There should be class actions suing them for all the administrative bloat that has occurred over the last 50 years. Would love to see the change in admin to student ratio at Texas (and other schools) since the 70s.

[Beau Vine 54230]

13 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

i think you teach at texas state, did you not get any support? 

I had to buy my own microphone and external webcam once my internal one went out.  

 

[gsoda3 3262]

 

 

24 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I had to buy my own microphone and external webcam once my internal one went out.  

 

 

they really didn't give you guys any financial help or offered to check out eqpt to you?  that's like texas elementary teacher messed up.  

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

I’m no lawyer, but how would one show that the quality is inferior?  Are they going to be able to get around ferpa and see everyone’s grades?
 It sounds to me like someone got a few Ds in the fall because they couldn’t roll out of bed at 10am and fire up the laptop and used that as an excuse when their daddy got mad. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

 

pffft, sleazy lawsuits, these kids never wanted to show up to class anyway.  college is just for trying to bang the girl in your study group.

Know how I know you weren’t an engineering student?

[Guest Lobo]

2 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

I had to buy my own microphone and external webcam once my internal one went out.  

 

It was for the inside of your computer, not your rectum.  That's why it broke.

#ihavetheworstfuckingcamgirlchannel

[Beau Vine 54230]

3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

pffft, sleazy lawsuits, these kids never wanted to show up to class anyway. 

We keep getting told that students want to come back to campus.  I have no doubt that's true, but it's definitely not for class, because you can look at any course in my department where there's an in-person section and an online section, and the online sections fill up first (well, they don't actually "fill up" because they keep upping the enrollment cap on them because they're not constrained by room size).  

[jimmyjazz 45960]

So, what's tuition?  $11K annual?  It went up 11% -- a big % bump, no doubt -- but that's $1.2K per student?  50K students --> $60M.  Probably Tom Herman and staff's buyout.

[Beau Vine 54230]

2 hours ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

I’m no lawyer, but how would one show that the quality is inferior?  Are they going to be able to get around ferpa and see everyone’s grades?
 It sounds to me like someone got a few Ds in the fall because they couldn’t roll out of bed at 10am and fire up the laptop and used that as an excuse when their daddy got mad. 

I asked my fall class what one thing I should do differently when I teach the class in the spring, and about 80% of them said I should require attendance.  I was floored.

[Newdoc 3440]

4 hours ago, 4th_and_18 said:

We spent a lot of money to upgrade classrooms

Up charging for an inferior product because you spend a lot of money is not a good justification. This sounds like a governmental agency defending its budget.

2 hours ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

but how would one show that the quality is inferior?

This is ubiquitous across the country at all education levels. If it’s so hard to measure outcomes in higher education then WTF are we doing college for in the first place? In person or not.

[Beau Vine 54230]

2 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

 

 

 

they really didn't give you guys any financial help or offered to check out eqpt to you?  that's like texas elementary teacher messed up.  

I asked my chair if I could get reimbursed out of my discretionary budget and was told no.

[Beau Vine 54230]

4 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

This is ubiquitous across the country at all education levels. If it’s so hard to measure outcomes in higher education then WTF are we doing college for in the first place? In person or not.

Any college/dept that's governed by an accrediting body is almost certainly required to do yearly assessment.  But I wouldn't exactly argue that assessment is doing a good job of measuring the quality of education.  

Edited March 2, 2021 by Beau Vine

[deadshank 24653]

3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

 

pffft, sleazy lawsuits, these kids never wanted to show up to class anyway.  college is just for trying to bang the girl in your study group.

Study?  LOL.  You didn’t place out of Plan II honors quantum theory economics world domination like the rest of us?  

[52-80 19159]

9 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

 

WTF are we doing college for in the first place?

for sloppy hookups.  we've already discussed this.

[52-80 19159]

1 minute ago, deadshank said:

Study?  LOL.  You didn’t place out of Plan II honors quantum theory economics world domination like the rest of us?  

they wouldnt even let me into Plan I

[Ghost of LL 15531]

4 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

IMO this is going to come down to sovereign immunity.

 

4 hours ago, Hanrahan said:

This lawsuit is going to run head first into governmental immunity.

These two are exactly right.  This case gets thrown out at a very early stage.

Sorry, fellas, but you don't get to sue the government unless the Legislature consents to the suit.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

16 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

 

These two are exactly right.  This case gets thrown out at a very early stage.

Sorry, fellas, but you don't get to sue the government unless the Legislature consents to the suit.

Ask Mike Leach.

How is the defense raised, under Rule 91a?

[Ghost of LL 15531]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Ask Mike Leach.

How is the defense raised, under Rule 91a?

Typically a plea to the jurisdiction.  

[crash_davis 23113]

Abbott opened up Texas. Wonder how long schools and universities follow suit? Will they start firing teachers and staff who don't want to go back to in person teaching? 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

31 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Typically a plea to the jurisdiction.  

Just wondering if you could use 91a and have a possibility of attorneys’ fees

[phdhorn 6224]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

So, what's tuition?  $11K annual?  It went up 11% -- a big % bump, no doubt -- but that's $1.2K per student?  50K students --> $60M.  Probably Tom Herman and staff's buyout.

Tuition increases in this case were different from school to school, but as you can imagine the Big Two (Engineering & Business) increased by an average of that much, other schools varied, probably averaging around 7%, but again the average annual increase for the last couple of years has been around 1.5-3%. why suddenly am I paying almost $1,000 more a year? It didn't make sense then, and it doesn't make sense now. Like I said, I would just like to know what the money was for but they really couldn't tell me -or at least didn't. some general claptrap about higher education $ with the pandemic or whatever

Still, I didn't have trouble bending over and taking it, my son is a UT senior in his last full semester so I can kind of live with it: I only had to pay the extra for one school year. And since they accepted my kid in the first place, I'll always kiss their picture on my mantle. But you multiply that over a couple of years and now the benchmark is almost a thousand $ more/yr. than it was in 2019. So a kid entering 2021 will now pay 4-5k $ more at least for 4 years than the guy the year before did. And I would highly doubt there wouldn't be another increase in 2022.

All I know is there'd better be crack whores and coke at his graduation or I'm going to demand some of my money back.

But maybe right, maybe Herman was burning some of that money to smoke a doob on his drunken plane rides. Probably was in his contract or something.

[4th_and_18 687]

1 hour ago, Newdoc said:

Up charging for an inferior product because you spend a lot of money is not a good justification. This sounds like a governmental agency defending its budget.

Nobody is up charging for anything. And you assume it’s an inferior product because a shitty student complained to Karen. The school went above and beyond to provide the best possible educational experience which is exactly what is promised when a student is accepted for attendance. 
 

If we want to have a separate discussion about waste I’ll gladly join the “these fuckers waste a lot of money” side of that argument. But that’s not what the plaintiff is claiming. 

[Dahobbs 17534]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

 

These two are exactly right.  This case gets thrown out at a very early stage.

Sorry, fellas, but you don't get to sue the government unless the Legislature consents to the suit.

But this is a breach of contract action. Is there not a waiver for that? The University has been sued for other types of breaches, so I'd think there would have to be. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Dahobbs

[Johnny Sack 8397]

36 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

But this is a breach of contract action. Is there not a waiver for that? The University has been sued for other types of breaches, so I'd think there would have to be. 

My recollection -- and this is from studying the bar 17 years ago -- is that you can sue for the portion of the contract the party contracting with the state has been performed, but not the part that has not been performed.

It's why Leach could not sue for the future years on his contract.

You raise a really good point.

 

[Guest]

The people making it sound like the college campi were devoid of the internet and computer systems prior to the pandemic make me giggle.  They are founts of technology on almost every front.

Massive upgrades to host zoom classes?   LOfuckingL.   Every podunk school district out there made it happen.  Bottom line is that colleges aren't just charging students for the cost of existing.  They are profiteering like a motherfucker.

[Brothahorn 10087]

2 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

I asked my fall class what one thing I should do differently when I teach the class in the spring, and about 80% of them said I should require attendance.  I was floored.

And how would you do that? Couldn't I just log in and leave? Record the session for later?

[Beau Vine 54230]

11 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

And how would you do that? Couldn't I just log in and leave? Record the session for later?

Like I said, I was floored.  I had a required-attendance course last Monday, and none of them turned their cams on, so I don't know what the fuck the point is.

[Beau Vine 54230]

19 minutes ago, slorch said:

The people making it sound like the college campi were devoid of the internet and computer systems prior to the pandemic make me giggle.  They are founts of technology on almost every front.

Massive upgrades to host zoom classes?   LOfuckingL.   Every podunk school district out there made it happen.  Bottom line is that colleges aren't just charging students for the cost of existing.  They are profiteering like a motherfucker.

We charge a $150 course fee for online courses.  I asked an assoc dean why and he said it was to cover the cost of hosting videos and all the other files associated with online teaching.  I told him that McGraw-Hill provides that service if I require the students to purchase the Connect HW system, which I do in the basic class, but he said we still charge them $150.  

[TwiceHorn 31483]

42 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

My recollection -- and this is from studying the bar 17 years ago -- is that you can sue for the portion of the contract the party contracting with the state has been performed, but not the part that has not been performed.

It's why Leach could not sue for the future years on his contract.

You raise a really good point.

 

 

Contracts don't waive immunity.  Tex. Govt. Code 2260 provides a compensation scheme for written contracts that takes them out of court, similar to the Tort Claims Act.  If it doesn't fit in 2260, the state is immune.

In Leach's case, the district judge thought that a provision of the Education Code making TTU kind of autonomous constituted a waiver, the Court of Appeals said nah ah.

Edited March 2, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Dahobbs 17534]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

 

Contracts don't waive immunity.  Tex. Govt. Code 2260 provides a compensation scheme for written contracts that takes them out of court, similar to the Tort Claims Act.  If it doesn't fit in 2260, the state is immune.

Good information. So students are excluded from the category of contractors to which this section would apply. Assuming nothing else applies to waive immunity, it seems students would always be SOL (at least as to contract damages). 

[Brothahorn 10087]

15 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Like I said, I was floored.  I had a required-attendance course last Monday, and none of them turned their cams on, so I don't know what the fuck the point is.

Gotcha.

Halfway joking..but if the online learning continues you guys are going to have to be more entertaining. Like open up with 10 minute monologue, have a guest read a top ten list and get a band. I say halfway joking because my daughter and her friends came up with the idea to a help get through their last term.

[Beau Vine 54230]

2 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Gotcha.

Halfway joking..but if the online learning continues you guys are going to have to be more entertaining. Like open up with 10 minute monologue, have a guest read a top ten list and get a band. I say halfway joking because my daughter and her friends came up with the idea to a help get through their last term.

I do bingo at least once a semester.  Does that count?

[TwiceHorn 31483]

45 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Good information. So students are excluded from the category of contractors to which this section would apply. Assuming nothing else applies to waive immunity, it seems students would always be SOL (at least as to contract damages). 

I dont pretend to know all the deets or possible ways around 2600.  I just followed the Leach stuff   I believe this is the article that I read years ago that filled me in.  https://law.marquette.edu/assets/sports-law/pdf/Leacharticle-9-04-12.pdf

That provision is relatively new and I think there used to be solid arguments that by entering into a contract, the state waived sovereign immunity.  That's a valid principle elsewhere, just not in Texas after the enactment of that statute.

Edited March 2, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31483]

6 hours ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

I’m no lawyer, but how would one show that the quality is inferior?  Are they going to be able to get around ferpa and see everyone’s grades?
 It sounds to me like someone got a few Ds in the fall because they couldn’t roll out of bed at 10am and fire up the laptop and used that as an excuse when their daddy got mad. 

Sovereign immunity likely trashes this case, but this is the other frailty.

Litigation of this type usually is in the nature of a breach of warranty, either express or implied.  There was just barely a contract here and certainly no express warranty by UT.  They'd have to be asking for the court to find an implied warranty.  And that's got to be a no-go because a student would have a claim every time they had a prof they didn't like or some other pretty subjective shortcoming.

I'd like to see the complaint on this.  Ordinarily, I might think there's some clever lawyering behind this, but after Sidney Powell & Co. it may just be utter dogshit begging for dismissal and sanctions.