City student passes 3 classes in four years, ranks near top half of class with 0.13 GPA

[Ojo Rojo 1906]

13 minutes ago, gyroprotagonist said:

can we just tell certain people that their tax dollars are totally NOT going to help poor people?  Their tax dollars are super secret earmarked for patriotic stuff like walls, trillion dollar warplanes and voter ID machines; you  know the kind of pork that pulls itself up by its bootstraps.  I think this would solve a lot angst and make people feel good about their taxes similar to people who check the '100% renewable energy' box from their electrical provider.

Not a bad idea.  Put a check box on the 1040 that says, "I do not want my tax dollars to pay for welfare."  Their tax dollars are not paying for welfare anyway, so it's meaningless, except to the Luddites who don't understand it.

[Brothahorn 10085]

All this talk of taxes, drugs and healthcare is just spitting in the wind. Fix the damn education system. Every thing starts there. Education=knowledge and opportunity.

[Willfully Horn 7915]

47 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

All this talk of taxes, drugs and healthcare is just spitting in the wind. Fix the damn education system. Every thing starts there. Education=knowledge and opportunity.

To the extent that taxes, drugs, and healthcare affect education, Imma push back. But, I loudly endorse the rest of your post.

In schools performing as poorly as the OP, I wonder why throwing money at the problem couldn’t help. But throw it at the parents and students. In effect, make it worth their while to ensure their kids go to school, study, and master the material.

Yeah, that shouldn’t be necessary. Yeah, it is counterintuitive. But, there is a problem, and the problem itself costs taxpayers.

Upthread, we learned that other countries join with industry to train (and also pay) students.

Its a thought, and there’s likely aspects to this suggestion that I’m missing. But, I’d rather lift the bottom of our education system up, than make the lives at the top easier. If it was one choice or the other. I know it’s not.

College loans should be interest free, though, IMO. As a taxpayer who is in a position where my kids won’t need those loans, I support underwriting loans for those not as fortunate. And I support raising my taxes to try new ways to improve education, starting at the bottom.

While I can support  public money going to charter schools, my support ceases when funding for public schools is cut to do so.

One reason my kids won’t need college loans is that our public schools prepared our girls for college, and we were not forced to pay tuition for private schools prior. Would that everyone benefited similarly.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Union busting blues

[fattyflattie 4636]

5 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Should it really?

Sincerely, can you put together a 3 or 4 sentence paragraph that explains why it shouldn’t? And why should anyone pay taxes at all, then?  I’m not following your 3 word sentences. 

[Brothahorn 10085]

15 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

To the extent that taxes, drugs, and healthcare affect education, Imma push back. But, I loudly endorse the rest of your post.

In schools performing as poorly as the OP, I wonder why throwing money at the problem couldn’t help. But throw it at the parents and students. In effect, make it worth their while to ensure their kids go to school, study, and master the material.

Yeah, that shouldn’t be necessary. Yeah, it is counterintuitive. But, there is a problem, and the problem itself costs taxpayers.

Upthread, we learned that other countries join with industry to train (and also pay) students.

Its a thought, and there’s likely aspects to this suggestion that I’m missing. But, I’d rather lift the bottom of our education system up, than make the lives at the top easier. If it was one choice or the other. I know it’s not.

College loans should be interest free, though, IMO. As a taxpayer who is in a position where my kids won’t need those loans, I support underwriting loans for those not as fortunate. And I support raising my taxes to try new ways to improve education, starting at the bottom.

While I can support  public money going to charter schools, my support ceases when funding for public schools is cut to do so.

One reason my kids won’t need college loans is that our public schools prepared our girls for college, and we were not forced to pay tuition for private schools prior. Would that everyone benefited similarly.

Giving money to the parents/students could be a good idea. Especially if you start it when they are young. And hopefully by the time they are older the thirst for learning will have taken over. So if a school district wants to give financial awards for grades and attendance have it. But, I don't think just adding another $1500 to average student spending is going to really do anything. How much of that is going to reach the students? The finances of something like that is probably best left for another thread. 

 

Of course it shouldn't be necessary, but reality is that something like that maybe necessary. Because the status quo isn't cutting it.

 

Absolutely we need more vocational training and those partnerships like you describe. Not sure why more kids don't get that training in HS. My parents forced me to take Shop/Ag, so I could always have a job in their words. Leaving HS with the skills for a real job as opposed to working the drive thru would be a real game changer.

 

If the government is going to be in the student loan business, then I agree. Or they can charge something simple like 1%.

 

If school funding is tied to head count and enrollment has dropped due to poor performance, the funding gets cut anyway right? I understand that underfunded schools will  be poor performing. But you are also damning those families who want better. Their kids are stuck in bad schools. In situations like this I feel like the bureaucrats are more interested in keeping their piece of the pie. I'm not even a big fan of charter schools, some are just money grabs. But I hate to see kids stuck in shitty schools. I'm sure there's middle ground where students and adults win.

 

[fattyflattie 4636]

12 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

So if a school district wants to give financial awards for grades and attendance have it.

I’m more for this than just handing out cash.  

[Bama Chick 28596]

No need to get cute, just call it what it is.  For the half the country that pays taxes, it isn’t free.  

WE’RE ALREADY PAYING FOR IT.

[Beau Vine 54003]

45 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Sincerely, can you put together a 3 or 4 sentence paragraph

Psst...you're talking to Dennison here.

 

[David Dennison 18659]

47 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Sincerely, can you put together a 3 or 4 sentence paragraph that explains why it shouldn’t? And why should anyone pay taxes at all, then?  I’m not following your 3 word sentences. 

Because the United States of America creates money out of thin air. 

That's why.

[David Dennison 18659]

3 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Psst...you're talking to Dennison here.

Yeah, I'm not going to go into a treatise on a message board.

Do your own homework.

[Willfully Horn 7915]

32 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I’m more for this than just handing out cash.  

If that is your conclusion from my post, then I failed to communicate.

[Willfully Horn 7915]

@Brothahorn , thanks for your post.

Agreed. Though it makes me question the wisdom of funding being solely a function of attendance. If that is strictly the case. I’m no expert.

Seems to me, the better a public school is, the higher the bar for private schools, as well.

Were funding based on the number of school age children in a district, the net might benefit all who attend any school.

[Brothahorn 10085]

Complicated formulas and attendance apparently.

According to Channel 11 from 2019

Quote

 

So that has some of KHOU 11 viewers like Melanie wondering, “Do Texas schools receive significant funding for students’ daily attendance?”

 

To answer this question, we turned to the Texas Association of School Boards.

 

Will Holleman, a government analyst for TASB, said attendance is a big part of school funding. He said how much each school district gets is made up of complicated formulas created by the Texas legislature and is implemented by the Texas Education Agency.

 

Holleman said each student can generate $6,160 for a school district. He said that amount can grow if a student requires extra resources.

 

However, Average Daily Attendance is the base for all school funding.

 

Under the law, each student has to sit through 75,600 minutes of instruction, about 180 days, every school year.

 

For example, TASB stated if a student misses nine days in the school year, their district loses 5 percent of the funding a student with perfect attendance would generate.

 

We can verify schools receive significant funding for a student’s daily attendance. It means schools lose money whenever a student is absent.

 

https://www.khou.com/article/news/verify-does-attendance-affect-school-funding/285-b197a9a2-eac0-436c-a832-c5bce4bb364d

[Nivek 16860]

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

WE’RE ALREADY PAYING FOR IT.

Said by every man....everywhere...

[Nivek 16860]

Interesting article

I suppose the first question to ask would be are schools really that bad?  Or is this just repeated nonsense that we often hear and yet do not question?  The article I linked above seems to suggest it is the latter.   The idea of paying students ( @Brothahorn ) to perform seems absurd to me especially in a society that doesn't want to bump min. wages after 11 years, weatherize our utilities, or resisted funding the cheaper New Orleans preventative upgrades vs. paying 10x that.   An interesting little throw away line in the article above is that some foreign nations are adopting American-style methods in order to promote understanding over testing.

If we juxtapose the unquestioned mantra* that kids whom are economically disadvantaged do worse in schools (generally) then we look at America's wealth distribution (below) then it would seem to indicate that our problems are really a result of our economic policies.   In the link below, the staggering information is that the wealth in the US of the top 10% is about 70% of the total wealth today.   Now I had some more trouble looking for 1950 values, but I did see that the top 5% had 21% of the wealth, and the top 20% had close to 43% of the wealth.  Since 1990, the Fed Reserve (link below) indicates that the top 10% have accumulated another 10% of the total wealth (since this seems bizarrely stated, in 1990 they only had 60% of the wealth).    

Now, because I have a restless mind, I went ahead and looked at foreign languages spoken in the U.S. homes, an according to the 2018 Census ~22% of Americans speak something other than English in their homes.  This is 3x the amount in 1980.**

 

Federal Reserve Graph of Wealth

*(I recognize that I just earlier questioned using oft cited, unquestioned statements without data, and here I am doing the same.  I had to quit somewhere lest this be a Brisket post of old^adderall)

**I really have to stop now.  

(Other links to consider/sourced Like this that don't click on me)

[Brothahorn 10085]

Nivek,

Overall I would say that our education system is pretty good. But in reference to the original topic and the quality of education given to poor minority students, that needs to be fixed. So if $20 for an A, can get a kid's attention why not? 

 

I would say the the better your education, the less likely you will have to depend on minimum wage.

 

As far as the economic policies and wealth distribution, the people who are below the line need an education to participate. What good is better economic policy to a 21 y/o who has no skills and can barely read? Even if you came up with a plan to even out the wealth, how do you keep the poor from falling back behind, if they don't understand?

 

I'm not saying you are wrong on some of your gripes. But we need to crawl before we walk.

 

[fattyflattie 4636]

3 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Psst...you're talking to Dennison here.

 

I know. That’s why I figured 3 sentences, while more effort than he has ever put out, wouldn’t be too bad. Maybe ease into productivity. 

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Because the United States of America creates money out of thin air. 

Oh. Well since that has exactly no consequences, let’s print every man woman and child a stack of cash and fix everything.  

3 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

If that is your conclusion from my post, then I failed to communicate.

It was the most comfortable thing from Brothas post, but I’m not a “throw money at it” proponent.  $$ is always a help, but there are structural issues that it won’t help. 
 

interesting read @Nivek

[UpperWestside 6136]

A lot of really substantive posts and ideas exchanged back and forth on this page! This is the kind of stuff that makes me want to check in and read this website. I would love to have some anecdotal evidence to add to this discussion about being in the classroom, but I will not until the fall when I begin teaching. 

[workswithseed 2037]

I wanted to put this in perspective. This was also back in 2014, and rate in 2019 (probably not too fair to put in 2020) was 10.5%. 

https://www.dailysignal.com/2014/09/28/weve-spent-22-trillion-on-war-on-poverty-what-have-we-achieved/

"It’s been 50 years now since the federal government launched its “War on Poverty.” But the numbers just released by the Census Bureau suggest we’re in a losing battle.

The poverty rate now stands at 14.5 percent. That’s a drop from the previous rate of 15 percent. But don’t celebrate too quickly. The new rate is almost exactly the poverty rate we had in 1967, only three years after President Lyndon Johnson announced his war.

To put it in further perspective: The poverty rate in 1950 was 32.2 percent. It dropped steadily throughout the ’50s, and had been nearly cut in half before the War on Poverty began. After that, the rate declined slightly, then leveled out."

[elfenix 34171]

33 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Oh. Well since that has exactly no consequences, let’s print every man woman and child a stack of cash and fix everything.  

why bother having a conversation with you when, rather than thinking about what it really means that we don't ship pieces of shiny metal back and forth to each other (which, shocker, we don't), you just go to idiotic shit like this?

[fattyflattie 4636]

6 minutes ago, elfenix said:

why bother having a conversation with you when, rather than thinking about what it really means that we don't ship pieces of shiny metal back and forth to each other (which, shocker, we don't), you just go to idiotic shit like this?

So you believe printing money at will has no other consequences?   

Also, the person who was asked to expound can't cobble more than 7 words together, so why bother, indeed.  

[elfenix 34171]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

So you believe printing money at will has no other consequences?  

just where the fuck do you think i wrote this? 

 

the conversation was about the mechanism by which the federal government spends money. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by elfenix

[Mole 4320]

Paying kids for grades: an interesting idea that seems also ripe for fraud. Hey teacher, give me an A and I'll cut you in on some of this action.

[fattyflattie 4636]

5 minutes ago, elfenix said:

just where the fuck do you think i wrote this? 

Why would you assume I think it means we would ship tiny pieces of metal back and forth to each other?  You're the one flinging shit.

[elfenix 34171]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Why would you assume I think it means we would ship tiny pieces of metal back and forth to each other?  You're the one flinging shit.

because you seem to be absolutely flabbergasted that the federal government spends dollars into existence.  as the only other alternative we've ever really had was shipping little bits of shiny metal around, that narrows it down a bit. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by elfenix

[fattyflattie 4636]

6 minutes ago, Mole said:

Paying kids for grades: an interesting idea that seems also ripe for fraud. Hey teacher, give me an A and I'll cut you in on some of this action.

What if it goes to some type of 529/college/trade trust or something?  And I don't think @Brothahorn $20 per A is going to get us there.  Don't know if he was just throwing that out, but most teenage kids can make that in in 2 hours.  So has to be substantative.   I still don't think it's the answer.  Would rather have it tied to attendance.  If kid in OP had bothered to show up half the days he missed, he might have done a little bit better.  

[fattyflattie 4636]

6 minutes ago, elfenix said:

because you seem to be absolutely flabbergasted that the federal government spends dollars into existence.  as the only other alternative we've ever had was shipping little bits of shiny metal around, that narrows it down a bit.

No, I'm flabbergasted at the amount they spend, and what they spend it on.   And that goes from DOD to social services. 

[elfenix 34171]

5 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

No, I'm flabbergasted at the amount they spend, and what they spend it on.   And that goes from DOD to social services. 

the constraint on federal spending is the remaining capacity of the US economy after private and other governmental spending is taken into account.  taxes are a way to control that private spending.  the questions are related but there's not a hard relationship.  and it's no more a free lunch than you or i choosing to do something productive with our time rather than dicking around on this message board.

which is, to say, not at all like just handing stacks of cash to everyone just willy-nilly

but, you know, BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Edited March 10, 2021 by elfenix

[fattyflattie 4636]

10 minutes ago, elfenix said:

the constraint on federal spending is the remaining capacity of the US economy after private and other governmental spending is taken into account.  taxes are a way to control that private spending.  the questions are related but there's not a hard relationship.

 

but, you know, BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

BRRRRRRRRR indeed.

[workswithseed 2037]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

BRRRRRRRRR indeed.

 

[BradInATX 9208]

Paying kids for grades: an interesting idea that seems also ripe for fraud. Hey teacher, give me an A and I'll cut you in on some of this action.

The fact that you're worried about teachers defrauding the system and committing felonies for some percentage of $20 is a pretty telling sign that we should pay teachers more.

[fattyflattie 4636]

7 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

The fact that you're worried about teachers defrauding the system and committing felonies for some percentage of $20 is a pretty telling sign that we should pay good teachers more.

 

I'm not certain the teachers at kids Baltimore school need more pay.  When half your kids are failing, some of that is on you. 

[Willfully Horn 7915]

37 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I wanted to put this in perspective. This was also back in 2014, and rate in 2019 (probably not too fair to put in 2020) was 10.5%. 

https://www.dailysignal.com/2014/09/28/weve-spent-22-trillion-on-war-on-poverty-what-have-we-achieved/

"It’s been 50 years now since the federal government launched its “War on Poverty.” But the numbers just released by the Census Bureau suggest we’re in a losing battle.

The poverty rate now stands at 14.5 percent. That’s a drop from the previous rate of 15 percent. But don’t celebrate too quickly. The new rate is almost exactly the poverty rate we had in 1967, only three years after President Lyndon Johnson announced his war.

To put it in further perspective: The poverty rate in 1950 was 32.2 percent. It dropped steadily throughout the ’50s, and had been nearly cut in half before the War on Poverty began. After that, the rate declined slightly, then leveled out."

One could argue the war on poverty has been poorly fought, rather than poorly conceived. Judging by the fuss over a $15 minimum wage, when today’s value of the dollar suggest $22-ish would be on par with its intent, there are forces that seem to be working against such government programs, like the war on poverty and the minimum wage.

 

 

 

[BradInATX 9208]

I'm not certain the teachers at kids Baltimore school need more pay.  When half your kids are failing, some of that is on you. 

No issues with upping accountability and removing some current barriers to terminating bad teachers if we raise their pay. I'd actually like to see that done for a lot of civil service jobs. Teachers, cops, etc. Raise pay, shift the power balance of talent supply and demand back to the employer and taxpayers. Competition and accountability are good things.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 hour ago, Brothahorn said:

Nivek,

Overall I would say that our education system is pretty good. But in reference to the original topic and the quality of education given to poor minority students, that needs to be fixed. So if $20 for an A, can get a kid's attention why not? 

 

I would say the the better your education, the less likely you will have to depend on minimum wage.

 

As far as the economic policies and wealth distribution, the people who are below the line need an education to participate. What good is better economic policy to a 21 y/o who has no skills and can barely read? Even if you came up with a plan to even out the wealth, how do you keep the poor from falling back behind, if they don't understand?

 

I'm not saying you are wrong on some of your gripes. But we need to crawl before we walk.

 

My grandma paid us $X per A, $Y per B, and $Z per C. You got a 2x multiplier for straight A’s.

And it grew exponentially from elementary school to high school so by the time you were in high school you could pocket a few hundred bucks per six weeks. I saved up a semester and paid for my senior year Cancun trip with good grade money.

Anyways, this was definitely an incentive for us growing up and our kids get this too, but they are a bit more spoiled than I was so I think it means a bit less. You could make the counter argument this is negative and is also why I’m very coin operated as an adult, though, to be fair.

[Willfully Horn 7915]

13 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

When half your kids are failing, some of that is on you. 

I don’t think that is absolutely true. Seems fair, but human nature tells me there are at least a few teachers at that school doing their level best. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Focus

[fattyflattie 4636]

Just now, Willfully Horn said:

I don’t think that is absolutely true. Seems fair, but human nature tells me there are at least a few teachers at that school doing their level best. 

Agreed. It’s not as simple as any of us here will be able to identify.  But for 4 years, no one could get anything to the kid/mom?  But I guess when 50% if your students are failing nearly as bad, this wasn’t as shocking a story as it appears to many of us.  Sad deal all around 

[Brothahorn 10085]

21 minutes ago, Mole said:

Paying kids for grades: an interesting idea that seems also ripe for fraud. Hey teacher, give me an A and I'll cut you in on some of this action.

It's possible. But this would be geared towards elementary kids. If a 7y/o is already thinking like that it, he's got upper management potential.

18 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

What if it goes to some type of 529/college/trade trust or something?  And I don't think @Brothahorn $20 per A is going to get us there.  Don't know if he was just throwing that out, but most teenage kids can make that in in 2 hours.  So has to be substantative.   I still don't think it's the answer.  Would rather have it tied to attendance.  If kid in OP had bothered to show up half the days he missed, he might have done a little bit better.  

This would only apply to elementary kids. The idea being that they will be motivated to learn and see a tangible benefit to education. Hopefully by the time they get to HS, they want to learn. If for nothing else the financial benefits. 

 

It was just an idea based on @Willfully Horn, earlier posts. I know a few parents who givea anywhere from $2-$10 for good grades or making the honor roll. Unfortunately, I wasn't that lucky. It was learn or get your ass beat. 

[Willfully Horn 7915]

5 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Agreed. It’s not as simple as any of us here will be able to identify.  But for 4 years, no one could get anything to the kid/mom?  But I guess when 50% if your students are failing nearly as bad, this wasn’t as shocking a story as it appears to many of us.  Sad deal all around 

Same page, then. There’s a lot of moving parts at play.

[Brothahorn 10085]

25 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

The fact that you're worried about teachers defrauding the system and committing felonies for some percentage of $20 is a pretty telling sign that we should pay teachers more.

 

I'm not against giving teachers more money. But how does that help the kid in the OP? If the kid/parent are not interested in school, whatever you pay the teacher still won't matter. 

[Willfully Horn 7915]

I was thinking more about motivating parents, truthfully. Based on my belief that parents can make a huge difference in education outcomes. Direct cash payments are but one option. Tax relief is another, realized monthly through rent or mortgage payments. Discounts at grocery stores, another. (Not that business wouldn’t be made whole).

 

 

[BradInATX 9208]

I'm not against giving teachers more money. But how does that help the kid in the OP?

It doesn't. It was a pure drive by.

[David Dennison 18659]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

Oh. Well since that has exactly no consequences, let’s print every man woman and child a stack of cash and fix everything.  

Or just credit their bank accounts. That's how the United States pays for nearly everything anyway.

Edited March 10, 2021 by David Dennison

[fattyflattie 4636]

11 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

I was thinking more about motivating parents, truthfully. Based on my belief that parents can make a huge difference in education outcomes. Direct cash payments are but one option. Tax relief is another, realized monthly through rent or mortgage payments. Discounts at grocery stores, another. (Not that business wouldn’t be made whole).

 

 

That works.  Parents are the an essential part of a good education. Or someone in a parental role.  
 

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Or just credit their bank accounts. That's how the United States pays for nearly everything anyway.

That works, too.  I’m fine with it as long as there’s a logical plan behind it. 

[Willfully Horn 7915]

Maid service. Transportation vouchers. Child care. Incentives targeted to help keep kids in school and dependent on results.

[fattyflattie 4636]

Lol @JimmyJames go back and neg all my posts. Such a little bitch. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by fattyflattie

[Brothahorn 10085]

21 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

I was thinking more about motivating parents, truthfully. Based on my belief that parents can make a huge difference in education outcomes. Direct cash payments are but one option. Tax relief is another, realized monthly through rent or mortgage payments. Discounts at grocery stores, another. (Not that business wouldn’t be made whole).

 

 

I say kids with the understanding that their parents are going to 'hold' the money for them. So the parent/s will be encouraging/paying attention. Which is the point.  

[Mole 4320]

I know I brought up the fraud issue, but the general concept is intriguing to me. Some mix of parental tax credits for child school attendance, small but tangible rewards for the kids, some sort of investment towards post high school educational funding, and high school/industry vocational partnerships seems like something with potential. If a kid doesn’t see what there is to gain from school, why should they care?

Incentive works. My kid isn’t school age yet, but we’ve offered toys for accomplishing various educational tasks that might take some weeks to learn and it’s clearly motivating.

I’ve long thought that the plan of paying young women to take birth control would also have a clear benefit on many fronts, but I’m guessing that would never fly in our current environment.

[YChang 3431]

At least from behavioral lens and studies... extrinsic rewards are a very good way to get most people to start a new behavior... the tricky part is turning the behavior. E.g. keeping up with your kids into an intrinsic motivation. Otherwise it’s going to stop no matter how much monetary reward is promised. 

[Willfully Horn 7915]

10 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

I say kids with the understanding that their parents are going to 'hold' the money for them. So the parent/s will be encouraging/paying attention. Which is the point.  

Fair. Motivating kids is the best outcome. I don’t know the answer. But the OP is a call to do something else. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Willfully Horn
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