City student passes 3 classes in four years, ranks near top half of class with 0.13 GPA

[YChang 3531]

5 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Fair. Motivating kids is the best outcome. I don’t know the answer. But the OP is a call to do something else. 

Btw, I’m not suggesting an incentive system can’t work... it’s more about how it’s designed. Can’t rely solely on “rewards.” It’s also a combination of showing (in real time, slightly delayed, etc) them how they’re getting better. For a kid it’s something like grades. What can it be for parents? It’s also giving them options for them to choose how to engage with their kids. And leverage a social component. Figure out all 3 and you def will have a hell of a motivational system. 

[Mole 4338]

Also, things that keep kids engaged need to be seen as essential to their education just like math and reading. That means sports, art, drama, music, scouts, and other things that don’t show up on standardized test questions need broad support especially in the most underperforming areas. Chasing the almighty test score might not be the best way to develop an educated populace.

[TwiceHorn 31984]

It's a complicated societal problem.

It's no answer to say "we need to fix the schools."  Improving the schools and educational standards is a part of it, especially in disadvantaged areas.

But just fixing the schools isn't going to solve the problem without fixing some other things wrong with society that prevent students from taking advantage of the educational opportunities presented to them.

You could establish IB programs with 42 AP courses and pay all the teachers more than $100k in every high school in the hood.  And that will be great for the few dozen or hundreds of kids that manage to graduate those programs.  But it won't fix the problem.

Edited March 10, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Bama Llama 1505]

A house with a defective foundation will have problems from day one.  Fixing education  begins with the youngest.  If a student has a solid foundation in basic subjects, he has a fighting chance at comprehending plane geometry, algebra and physics.  We should triage education and save the elementary schools first.

[JimmyJames 12271]

8 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Lol @JimmyJames go back and neg all my posts. Such a little bitch. 

You’ve made about 50 stupid posts this week on this thread alone. I negged three of the worst. Grow up. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Bama Llama said:

A house with a defective foundation will have problems from day one.  Fixing education  begins with the youngest.  If a student has a solid foundation in basic subjects, he has a fighting chance at comprehending plane geometry, algebra and physics.  We should triage education and save the elementary schools first.

If their parents aren't engaged in the process...  likeTwice Horn says, throwing all the money in the world at it is not changing anything.

Fix the parents.  Change expectations.

Feelings will be hurt.  That's why we won't do it.   Political capital is in the money...

[ChickenSandwich 9918]

10 minutes ago, slorch said:

If their parents aren't engaged in the process...  likeTwice Horn says, throwing all the money in the world at it is not changing anything.

Fix the parents.  Change expectations.

Feelings will be hurt.  That's why we won't do it.   Political capital is in the money...

“This may not be politically correct," he said, "but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”
 

He added: “If we’re going to solve this … we’ve got to have a real discussion. … Parts of the conversation cannot be off-limits because it’s not politically comfortable. … We are going to discuss issues that have been taboo in years past because they are part of the solution. … We also have a responsibility to help nurture character. It plays a role. Our kids need that moral structure in their lives. And we cannot be scared to have this conversation.”
 

-Rahm Emmanuel, Mayor of Chicago after a weekend with 70 shooting victims  

Didn’t work out to well for him, and is a huge obstacle for any real progress going forward. Facts and common sense will be canceled for feelings and micro aggressions. 

[Guest]

I'm shocked he actually said it.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

9 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

I was thinking more about motivating parents, truthfully. Based on my belief that parents can make a huge difference in education outcomes. Direct cash payments are but one option. Tax relief is another, realized monthly through rent or mortgage payments. Discounts at grocery stores, another. (Not that business wouldn’t be made whole).

 

 

The parents this would target are almost assuredly already on tax relief, gov't assistance, food, and housing assistance.

[Celery Man 21076]

34 minutes ago, slorch said:

If their parents aren't engaged in the process...  likeTwice Horn says, throwing all the money in the world at it is not changing anything.

Fix the parents.  Change expectations.

Feelings will be hurt.  That's why we won't do it.   Political capital is in the money...

finish your sentences

[Beau Vine 55816]

10 hours ago, Mole said:

Paying kids for grades: an interesting idea that seems also ripe for fraud. Hey teacher, give me an A and I'll cut you in on some of this action.

You don't realize that you can say this about literally any transaction that currently involves money?

[ChickenSandwich 9918]

23 minutes ago, slorch said:

I'm shocked he actually said it.

 

At least they replaced that hateful man...

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

15 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

*finish your sentences*

*Finish

*. 

 

A two'fer.......

Edited March 10, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[elfenix 34658]

55 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Facts and common sense will be canceled for feelings and micro aggressions. 

that's pretty introspective of you

[Mole 4338]

41 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

You don't realize that you can say this about literally any transaction that currently involves money?

On some level, yes: let me steal this case of Natty light and I’ll split it with you. But grading little Johnny’s presentation on Sam Houston is nebulous in a way that a missing case of watered down beer isn’t. Of course it depends on how the payments would be made and the amount of money involved as to whether or not it would be worth it.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Mole

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

finish your sentences

Finish( start)  raising our kids...

[Beau Vine 55816]

6 minutes ago, Mole said:

On some level, yes: let me steal this case of Natty light and I’ll split it with you. But grading little Johnny’s presentation on Sam Houston is nebulous in a way that a missing case of watered down beer isn’t. Of course it depends on how the payments would be made and the amount of money involved as to whether or not it would be worth it.

You mean nebulous in how college students could bribe their professors for better grades or glowing recommendation letters so that they can get good jobs?

That happens ALL THE TIME, which is how I obtained Surly 1%er status.

[Celery Man 21076]

... so that? 

[ndawg 1242]

9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's a complicated societal problem.

It's no answer to say "we need to fix the schools."  Improving the schools and educational standards is a part of it, especially in disadvantaged areas.

But just fixing the schools isn't going to solve the problem without fixing some other things wrong with society that prevent students from taking advantage of the educational opportunities presented to them.

You could establish IB programs with 42 AP courses and pay all the teachers more than $100k in every high school in the hood.  And that will be great for the few dozen or hundreds of kids that manage to graduate those programs.  But it won't fix the problem.

This right here. There is always a certain degree of dysfunction present in complex systems. We can look at our outcomes, and compare them to other first world countries, and clearly see that we have more dysfunction than they have. We can also look at our states and see variation among them. The bleak reality is hiding in plain sight right in front of us, just like healthcare.

The American political landscape isn't equipped to address dysfunction. We elect leaders on the basis of tribal identity and sound bytes, who promise "easy" answers. But "easy" answers don't even begin to address dysfunction, and at best they merely rearrange where the problems manifest. To actually correct dysfunction you need an approach that can't fit into a sound byte -- improvement has to happen holistically among the entire ranks, top to bottom. Ideology doesn't matter, except that dogmatic thinking is a limitation. And to correct dysfunction, you often have to try things that have a risk of failure, but American politics treats failure as fodder for oppositions to build a case against incumbents, rather than a data point to help correct and reorient.

Education isn't going to get fixed by simple minded "fixes" like eliminating teachers unions, paying them more, etc. Poverty doesn't go away with by installing the "correct" macroeconomic principles. It's impossible to believe anyone who thinks they've got THE answer for what's going to fix any complex problem.

Edited March 10, 2021 by ndawg

[DonkeyCigars 143]

11 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

You mean nebulous in how college students could bribe their professors for better grades or glowing recommendation letters so that they can get good jobs?

That happens ALL THE TIME, which is how I obtained Surly 1%er status.

 

[StassneyHorn 6755]

Any of you heard about Cory Booker’s baby bonds bill? 1k bond deposited every year from birth up to 18 years old. 

[956 Worldwide 35516]

34 minutes ago, Mole said:

On some level, yes: let me steal this case of Natty light and I’ll split it with you. But grading little Johnny’s presentation on Sam Houston is nebulous in a way that a missing case of watered down beer isn’t. Of course it depends on how the payments would be made and the amount of money involved as to whether or not it would be worth it.

Would be a great scam to try exactly once on each mark.  
 

Before the exam: Teach, give me a B+ on this final and we split the payout.

After grades are in: I don’t remember that agreement. Well, I guess you can go complain to the principal that I didn’t pay up. And warn all your teacher friends about me, too!

Edited March 10, 2021 by 956 Worldwide

[Mole 4338]

Maybe Deion could reopen his Prime Academy to start pulling in that a sweet B+ government cash.

[gyroprotagonist 2597]

7 minutes ago, Mole said:

On some level, yes: let me steal this case of Natty light and I’ll split it with you. But grading little Johnny’s presentation on Sam Houston is nebulous in a way that a missing case of watered down beer isn’t. Of course it depends on how the payments would be made and the amount of money involved as to whether or not it would be worth it.

i think the point is that this is suuuuuuuch small potatoes that we should file it under 'who cares'.  Eventually the teacher will get caught.  if the program has a decent success rate and low-ish fraud rate, again who cares?  compared to the grift that happens at local/state/federal levels, it is tiny.  But again, people who don't give a fuck that Paxton has been under indictment since 2015 for securities fraud would go completely ape-shit that poor people were getting money and that there could be fraud. 

Heaven help us if there was a news story about $20 changing hands under the table.  it would be a national story while no one gives a fuck about Ted Cruz buying his own book with campaign funds to collect more royalties or the mountain of grift that benefited Trump by staging everything he could at his hotels and that entities and foreign nationals booked dozens of rooms to provide backsheesh/douceur before a meet.

The theme this comes back to again and again is fuck people poorer than me getting anything justified by inane "mah taxes", "mah bootstraps" and "mah 'tegridy"

 

[Mole 4338]

I tend to like the general idea of monetary and other incentives, but tying it to grades invites some problems. If the money is enough to be an incentive, it’s probably enough to draw and all sorts of issues: grift, an even less supportive relationship between parents and teachers, etc. It introduces a whole new set of weird pressures on the teachers which doesn’t seem healthy. There might be ways to pull it off, but there are some problems.

Simply tying it to attendance eliminates most of these problems although it might lessen the positive learning impact.

[956 Worldwide 35516]

11 minutes ago, gyroprotagonist said:

i think the point is that this is suuuuuuuch small potatoes that we should file it under 'who cares'.  Eventually the teacher will get caught.  if the program has a decent success rate and low-ish fraud rate, again who cares?  compared to the grift that happens at local/state/federal levels, it is tiny.  But again, people who don't give a fuck that Paxton has been under indictment since 2015 for securities fraud would go completely ape-shit that poor people were getting money and that there could be fraud. 

Heaven help us if there was a news story about $20 changing hands under the table.  it would be a national story while no one gives a fuck about Ted Cruz buying his own book with campaign funds to collect more royalties or the mountain of grift that benefited Trump by staging everything he could at his hotels and that entities and foreign nationals booked dozens of rooms to provide backsheesh/douceur before a meet.

The theme this comes back to again and again is fuck people poorer than me getting anything justified by inane "mah taxes", "mah bootstraps" and "mah 'tegridy"

 

This reminds me of how we’d rather spend 20 taxpayer bucks on a complex, inefficient government bureaucracy to administer benefits in kind than run the risk that somewhere a poor person might spend five taxpayer bucks on cigarettes. 

[Mole 4338]

Put another way, my parents paid me for good grades and it was a motivating factor. It also served to perpetuate a supportive relationship between parent and teacher. My parents were supporting the work of my teachers. Outside money turns this relationship on its head. Teachers already complain about the toxic, unsupportive relationship with many parents and this looks like it could make things worse.

There might be ways to pull it off, but there are ways it could really make things worse as well.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

25 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This reminds me of how we’d rather spend 20 taxpayer bucks on a complex, inefficient government bureaucracy to administer benefits in kind than run the risk that somewhere a poor person might spend five taxpayer bucks on cigarettes. 

might?

Just kidding.

[Beau Vine 55816]

1 hour ago, Mole said:

I tend to like the general idea of monetary and other incentives, but tying it to grades invites some problems. If the money is enough to be an incentive, it’s probably enough to draw and all sorts of issues: grift, an even less supportive relationship between parents and teachers, etc. It introduces a whole new set of weird pressures on the teachers which doesn’t seem healthy. There might be ways to pull it off, but there are some problems.

Simply tying it to attendance eliminates most of these problems although it might lessen the positive learning impact.

I've been teaching college for nearly 30 years now.  Every year, I have scores of students whose precarious monetary positions are affected by the grade they make in my class, whether it's needing a certain grade to keep their scholarship, to get into the top grad school they aspire to, to keep their parents from cutting them off, to get a good job, etc.  Hell, some of them may have parents who pay them for good grades, like mine and yours did.  So they have a very clear financial motivation to make a good grade in my class.  

In all that time, do you know how many have attempted to bribe me?

Spoiler

 

[SydneyCarton 49325]

22 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I've been teaching college for nearly 30 years now.  Every year, I have scores of students whose precarious monetary positions are affected by the grade they make in my class, whether it's needing a certain grade to keep their scholarship, to get into the top grad school they aspire to, to keep their parents from cutting them off, to get a good job, etc.  Hell, some of them may have parents who pay them for good grades, like mine and yours did.  So they have a very clear financial motivation to make a good grade in my class.  

In all that time, do you know how many have attempted to bribe me?

  Hide contents

 

Well, have you tried putting a Tip Jar on your desk?

[Sbbruin 22082]

2 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

 

You know, this is one of the few Coen Bros movies I haven't seen.  Surly review?

[Beau Vine 55816]

9 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

You know, this is one of the few Coen Bros movies I haven't seen.  Surly review?

I wasn't Jewish enough to enjoy it.

[Nivek 17330]

There is a bit of things brought up that should be discussed in a few more details.  But I want to circle back to the original question are our schools actually underperforming?  (In the previous post/link, one of the articles mentioned that the scoring from China was based on only 3 of the wealthiest districts within all of China and not representative of their educational program as a whole so I am not sure how much of this is legitimate.)  

Are the schools that perform poorly on average saddled with more troubled kids or kids with learning disabilities (LDs), emotional disabilities, language/criminal issues, food shortages, or lacking parental involvement?   How are they being factored into the scoring of a school or district? 

• Wheeze the Juice!  This study found that children of convicted substance abusing parents did worse academically, most of this was attributed to socio-economic factors (wealth distribution) as opposed to just drug use.  Children whose parents participated in programs and cleaned up, were still suffering academically.  
• Seventy-two percent of children with disabilities were not enrolled in public school in 1950, but were either kept home or institutionalized (Bulgarian Dork Bud).  This seems to relate back to wealth distribution, the kids whom had special needs were able to get them in the private sector and/or not in public schools.  

A book I once read (Betty Nugs) had a citation about the education style that we currently use (traditional) vs. Montessori styles and how even when accounting for demographic, social and economic differences, the Montessori students had statistically significant lower instances of mental illness.   I also learned that our educational programs prior to 1957 focused more on physical, mental, and social growth in primary school and after the space race, the focused switched toward academics (STEM).  

So far, the common theme I am seeing developing is that our results are representative of the wealth distribution within the nation as a whole (but still not a foregone conclusion).  

Tossing a few dollars at a student sounds good, but I don't think that provides the intrinsic motivation that is needed to develop sustained success.   

More on this, I think the idea that we can prescribe a solution (toss money at it, pay kids, pay parents) when we do not know if there is a systemic problem, what is the cause of the problem, and how can such problem be addressed and what is the expected outcome?  I do not mean to be insulting here, but I think this type of reactionary response underlies and greater disinterest in the subject.*

A few more unexplored thoughts from me:

• There were a few comments about poor teachers.  Again, I find this a difficult metric to ascertain. 
  • We all have had experiences running the gambit and some of that has to factor in how we learn. 
• We also have not even discussed how we identify learning or emotional disabilities in class and how often they are identified or if they are properly identified at all in schools like that mentioned in the OP.   

* I completely understand that we cannot care about every cause or awareness program out there, no matter how worthy.

[Nivek 17330]

42 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I've been teaching college for nearly 30 years now. 

 

How does one teach college?  /Surly Asshole

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

52 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I've been teaching college for nearly 30 years now.  Every year, I have scores of students whose precarious monetary positions are affected by the grade they make in my class, whether it's needing a certain grade to keep their scholarship, to get into the top grad school they aspire to, to keep their parents from cutting them off, to get a good job, etc.  Hell, some of them may have parents who pay them for good grades, like mine and yours did.  So they have a very clear financial motivation to make a good grade in my class.  

In all that time, do you know how many have attempted to bribe me?

  Hide contents

 

You sound pissed, and disappointed....

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

10 minutes ago, Nivek said:

How does one teach college?  /Surly Asshole

You start out interning at a frat or sorority I think.

[safe sex 11913]

31 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

You know, this is one of the few Coen Bros movies I haven't seen.  Surly review?

Essential

[UpperWestside 6262]

12 hours ago, Mole said:

Also, things that keep kids engaged need to be seen as essential to their education just like math and reading. That means sports, art, drama, music, scouts, and other things that don’t show up on standardized test questions need broad support especially in the most underperforming areas. Chasing the almighty test score might not be the best way to develop an educated populace.

If there is a single thing that needs to be removed from how we judge intelligence and knowledge it is this. Our current model of education just teaches to a test. Whether it is yearly tests or a test in a class covering a portion of material being studied, we are failing the youth of this country with this mode of education.

I am also a very, very big proponent of the arts being a bigger part of the educational experience. I do not believe we encourage this enough in our youth. Creative expression within children is stunted in our current model of education. I feel that one of the biggest ways to open the minds of children is to make teaching the arts a bigger part of the curriculum, especially in areas where the schools are on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum. I find that we continue having a national conversation about how to reform education and keep students and parents interested and invested in their educational experience, but then I look the actuality of what is taking place and I see an experience that is dated and not conducive to fostering a learning environment that would make children excited about school. That's a lot of words to say that I want to see us as a country put a far bigger emphasis on the arts and not teaching to tests anymore and instead teaching in a way where both students and parents feel invested and excited about the education their kid is receiving. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by UpperWestside

[WBT 20879]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

I've been teaching college for nearly 30 years now.  Every year, I have scores of students whose precarious monetary positions are affected by the grade they make in my class, whether it's needing a certain grade to keep their scholarship, to get into the top grad school they aspire to, to keep their parents from cutting them off, to get a good job, etc.  Hell, some of them may have parents who pay them for good grades, like mine and yours did.  So they have a very clear financial motivation to make a good grade in my class.  

In all that time, do you know how many have attempted to bribe me?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I thought for sure that when I clicked on the spoiler you were finally going to give up your Idleman/Pops pics.

[Mole 4338]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

I've been teaching college for nearly 30 years now.  Every year, I have scores of students whose precarious monetary positions are affected by the grade they make in my class, whether it's needing a certain grade to keep their scholarship, to get into the top grad school they aspire to, to keep their parents from cutting them off, to get a good job, etc.  Hell, some of them may have parents who pay them for good grades, like mine and yours did.  So they have a very clear financial motivation to make a good grade in my class.  

In all that time, do you know how many have attempted to bribe me?

  Hide contents

 

Like you, I am a professor of something other than English. And also like you, I’ve never had a bribe attempt.

Still, there’s something amiss here. I’m struggling to articulate precisely what the issue is, but the government paying students for grades changes the nature of the relationship between teacher, parent, and student in some ways that seem troubling to me. It doesn’t have to simply be the grift aspect.

The payoff might be worth this change in dynamic, but I don’t think it’s wise to pretend that things wouldn’t be different. I suspect that there would be significant pushback from teachers due to these changes. It could exacerbate the already adversarial relationship that seems to exist between some parents and teachers.

Good grades and recommendations leading to better paying jobs or even scholarships is abstracted enough from the monetary payoff to be different than the government making it rain for high scoring essays by second graders.

If they were the same, no one would suggest paying students for good grades, since they would already be motivated by the benefits of a good education.

I think it’s an interesting idea, but there are problems.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 hour ago, Mole said:

Like you, I am a professor of something other than English. And also like you, I’ve never had a bribe attempt.

Still, there’s something amiss here. I’m struggling to articulate precisely what the issue is, but the government paying students for grades changes the nature of the relationship between teacher, parent, and student in some ways that seem troubling to me. It doesn’t have to simply be the grift aspect.

The payoff might be worth this change in dynamic, but I don’t think it’s wise to pretend that things wouldn’t be different. I suspect that there would be significant pushback from teachers due to these changes. It could exacerbate the already adversarial relationship that seems to exist between some parents and teachers.

Good grades and recommendations leading to better paying jobs or even scholarships is abstracted enough from the monetary payoff to be different than the government making it rain for high scoring essays by second graders.

If they were the same, no one would suggest paying students for good grades, since they would already be motivated by the benefits of a good education.

I think it’s an interesting idea, but there are problems.

I knew it! What do you teach?

[Mole 4338]

3 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I knew it! What do you teach?

I mostly just report plagiarism.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

25 minutes ago, Mole said:

I mostly just report plagiarism.

Snitch.

[workswithseed 2201]

1 minute ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Snitch.

The only one that doesn't get stitches.

[Beau Vine 55816]

4 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You sound pissed, and disappointed....

You're gotdam right.  I'm trying to retire and could use a little help.

[Beau Vine 55816]

4 hours ago, WBT said:

I thought for sure that when I clicked on the spoiler you were finally going to give up your Idleman/Pops pics.

We were talking about monetary bribes here. 

[Beau Vine 55816]

2 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Still, there’s something amiss here. I’m struggling to articulate precisely what the issue is, but the government paying students for grades changes the nature of the relationship between teacher, parent, and student in some ways that seem troubling to me.

The government for years has been paying students for grades in the form of minimum GPAs to qualify for financial aid and scholarships.  

If you're a professor, surely you've noticed how much the oversight of federal financial aid regulations has ramped up over the last few years.  I still don't fucking understand the difference between an "earned F" and an "unearned F."

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

The government for years has been paying students for grades in the form of minimum GPAs to qualify for financial aid and scholarships.  

If you're a professor, surely you've noticed how much the oversight of federal financial aid regulations has ramped up over the last few years.  I still don't fucking understand the difference between an "earned F" and an "unearned F."

An un earned F should be that grade a kid gets when they should have gotten a zero for not even turning in an assignment, which now doesn't seem like a big deal anymore for some bizarre reason.

[Beau Vine 55816]

9 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

An un earned F should be that grade a kid gets when they should have gotten a zero for not even turning in an assignment, which now doesn't seem like a big deal anymore for some bizarre reason.

A couple of semesters ago, I had a kid who turned in such absolute shit in the first part of the semester that there was no mathematical way for him to pass the class.  I sent him an email telling him to quit wasting his time and my time and that there was no point in him showing up for class any more.  The registrar insisted to me that this should be an "unearned F" because he didn't take the final exam.  I told her that because of his spectacularly shitty work, he had earned an F more than any student I had ever had and that he would have made an F even if he had made a 100 on the final.  She insisted it was "unearned" because he didn't take the final. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

38 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

A couple of semesters ago, I had a kid who turned in such absolute shit in the first part of the semester that there was no mathematical way for him to pass the class.  I sent him an email telling him to quit wasting his time and my time and that there was no point in him showing up for class any more.  The registrar insisted to me that this should be an "unearned F" because he didn't take the final exam.  I told her that because of his spectacularly shitty work, he had earned an F more than any student I had ever had and that he would have made an F even if he had made a 100 on the final.  She insisted it was "unearned" because he didn't take the final. 

Well, there's a moral victory in there some where I guess...  0.unearned 0