Lowering the voting age to 16? Why not?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

 

[bad_teammate 13,132]

If a 16-year-old can legally get a job and pay taxes on their check... interesting idea.

[MissingInAction 24,822]

If anything there should be an age cap to vote and to run for office.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Seems like a 16 year old should have a say in the government he will be getting when he turns 18.  Like, if you’re trying to avoid getting drafted in a war. 

[ztejas 43,266]

So we've decided kids aren't responsible enough to use tobacco products until they turn 21 but now they're ready to vote at 16? You can't see an R rated movie unaccompanied but you can vote? 

[tantric superman 4,667]

[MissingInAction 24,822]

Punchable faces thread is that way >>>>>

[RPM 26,228]

 

[Nivek 16,859]

Backpfeifengesicht

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

14 minutes ago, ztejas said:

So we've decided kids aren't responsible enough to use tobacco products until they turn 21 but now they're ready to vote at 16? You can't see an R rated movie unaccompanied but you can vote? 

If we want to play this game, how about the driving age?  

 

 

 

[Biff Tannen 45,495]

I wouldn't have wanted 16 year old me to vote, so no.  Their brains aren't developed enough.  And yes, there should be a maximum age, at least to run for office. 

[ztejas 43,266]

7 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If we want to play this game, how about the driving age?  

 

 

 

I'm not playing a game, just pointing out recent (or longheld) inconsistencies.

To your point, I'd be much more okay with 16 yos voting only if they had a driver's license.

[Chad Fuck 17,566]

23 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I wouldn't have wanted 16 year old me to vote, so no.  Their brains aren't developed enough.  And yes, there should be a maximum age, at least to run for office. 

This.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

It’s not like we can get the youth to vote in great numbers now.  16 year olds make life choices now that influence the rest of their lives already. I’m not sure I buy the “brain not fully developed” argument when kids are working and applying for massive student loans around that age. 

[bad_teammate 13,132]

16-year-old turnout is going to be very high among budding fascists and that's about it.

[Chad Fuck 17,566]

It’s not like we can get the youth to vote in great numbers now.  16 year olds make life choices now that influence the rest of their lives already. I’m not sure I buy the “brain not fully developed” argument when kids are working and applying for massive student loans around that age. 

Nothing you’ve said argues against the idea that a person’s brain isn’t fully developed at 16. Just because 16 year olds can in some circumstance be called upon to make decisions they aren’t mentally equipped to deal with doesn’t mean we should put them in more of those situations.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

3 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Nothing you’ve said argues against the idea that a person’s brain isn’t fully developed at 16. Just because 16 year olds can in some circumstance be called upon to make decisions they aren’t mentally equipped to deal with doesn’t mean we should put them in more of those situations.

No one is suggesting to force a 16 year old to vote. There are plenty of 16 year olds with wisdom well beyond their years. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Hugo Stiglitz

[956 Worldwide 34,443]

There is by nature going to be an arbitrary cutoff with these things. Why 16 and not 15? Why not 17? 
 

I’m not in favor of introducing more confusion over when a person becomes an adult. Being tried for crimes as an adult, having sex with other grownups, serving in the military, voting, moving away from home, signing contracts.... it makes sense for that to be rolled out as one package the same year you graduate from high school.  Hell, throw the drinking age in there as well. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by 956 Worldwide

[elfenix 34,171]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

I wouldn't have wanted 16 year old me to vote, so no.  Their brains aren't developed enough.  And yes, there should be a maximum age, at least to run for office. 

given the participation rates, 16 year old you probably wouldn't have voted. 

25 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

16-year-old turnout is going to be very high among budding fascists and that's about it.

if the structure doesn't change then yes, this likely happens. 

my high school was often used as a polling place.  i think high schools across the country are similar.  if the voting age were lowered to 16, you might be able to get whole classes going in to vote (say, government or history class - here's civic participation in action).  and even if you only did it for major elections you'd still catch nearly everyone busting their cherry at some point during school.  as those who have previously voted are much more likely to vote than those who haven't, you can get that habit started and ramp up the participation rate across the board, not just hitler youth. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by elfenix

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

If a 16-year-old are hopelessly idealistic and will vote for crazy, insane ideas without a critical eye; kinda on brand with the far far left. More votes? Interesting idea.

FIFY

Edited March 3, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

Oy vey Hugo... the king of click bait.  16 ?  Yeah no.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

All this is dodging the real issue. There needs to be a maximum voting age. Adding incompetent left leaning voters in early life to balance incompetent right leaning voters in later life is a bad idea.  It is true that not every 70+ year old is incompetent, but neither is every 16 or 17 year old.  We have been happy with a bright line for one so why not for the other?  But its also true that the 16 and 17 year olds have to live in this world that fearful old people try to burn down on their way out the door.  When a coach is about to get fired, you don't let him burn the team to the ground. You keep him corralled until his time is up. 

[956 Worldwide 34,443]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If we want to play this game, how about the driving age?  

 

 

 

14 year olds can drive in hardship cases in some states. Driving a car isn’t a good proxy for the type of judgment required for voting.  It’s more fine motor skills, coordination, capability of understanding signs and rules, etc. Also, 16-17 year olds are by far the most dangerous drivers on the road per mile driven and it’s not even close, so that’s not a ringing endorsement. 

I am loath to give credence to most R arguments, but the ability to comprehend long term consequences and appropriate ways to relate to society (ie, capability to be charged with a crime as an adult) is a better proxy for your readiness to participate in government. I don’t see how you say someone can vote for the legislators that write laws, but not be subject to the laws they’re voting for. 

 

[DigglerontheHoof 21,063]

Will allowing them to vote mean hot 16 yo girls be legal for fornication?   Asking for a friend's son. 

[elfenix 34,171]

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

All this is dodging the real issue. There needs to be a maximum voting age. Adding incompetent left leaning voters in early life to balance incompetent right leaning voters in later life is a bad idea.  It is true that not every 70+ year old is incompetent, but neither is every 16 or 17 year old.  We have been happy with a bright line for one so why not for the other?  But its also true that the 16 and 17 year olds have to live in this world that fearful old people try to burn down on their way out the door.  When a coach is about to get fired, you don't let him burn the team to the ground. You keep him corralled until his time is up. 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

3 minutes ago, elfenix said:

Exactly. That's what happens when you wait too long to pull someone's voting card. 

[wildcat09 29,256]

I'm sympathetic to the argument that if 16 year olds can work and pay income taxes then they should be able to vote, but I don't see many of them ever actually voting. 

[ztejas 43,266]

14 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

There are plenty of 16 year olds with wisdom well beyond their years. 

No... there really aren't. There are plenty of smart 16 year olds capable of understanding politics. That doesn't make them wise. The next time a 16 year old gives me some life advice worth hearing or notices something insightful about my condition might be the first. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

 

[956 Worldwide 34,443]

7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm sympathetic to the argument that if 16 year olds can work and pay income taxes then they should be able to vote, but I don't see many of them ever actually voting. 

I’d far rather stop taxing 16 year olds on their income.  I’d leave in place payroll taxes for them and SS withholding (to avoid a perverse incentive not to hire adults) and give them a stub that shows what they will be losing once they turn 18. Would be a nice transition phase for them to learn responsibility and how to hold a job. 
 

Also, you’d need some control to prevent business owners from hiring their sixteen year old kid and paying some crazy salary, so maybe it’s not worth the idea at all.

Edited March 3, 2021 by 956 Worldwide

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm sympathetic to the argument that if 16 year olds can work and pay income taxes then they should be able to vote, but I don't see many of them ever actually voting. 

Everything should be either 18 or 21. Hardship work if you need it before that. 

If you think someone is not competent enough to drink responsibly, then they certainly aren't competent enough to sign up for the military. 

[Willfully Horn 7,913]

When my oldest kid was 16, she made the news for speaking out against her school fight song, “Dixie.” She and her friends convinced her school to vote for a change in songs.

That she couldn’t vote in the November elections made her angry. As that anger underscored the importance of voting, I say leave the voting age where it is.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Edit

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Countries Whose Legal Voting Age Is 16 

The legal voting age for Nicaragua, Scotland, Isle of Man, Guernsey, Ethiopia, Ecuador, Cuba, Brazil, and Austria is 16 years.
 

Countries Whose Legal Voting Age Is 17 

Countries whose legal voting age is 17 are Sudan, South Sudan, North Korea, Indonesia, Greece, and East Timor. Even though the voting age in Indonesia is 17 years old, married persons are required to vote regardless of their age.
 

Countries Whose Legal Voting Age Is 18 

The legal voting age for most countries is 18. Over one hundred nations are in this category including Afghanistan, China, Australia, Bahamas, Belgium, Botswana, Canada, Comoros, Denmark, Egypt, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Guatemala, Israel, Jamaica, Jordan, Lebanon, Marshall Islands, Macedonia, Mauritania, Kenya, Mongolia, Philippines, Saint Helena, Tanzania, United States, Yemen, Zimbabwe, Japan, and Italy among many others. The voting age for residents of Boznia and Herzegovania is also 18. However, employed persons aged 16 can vote. On the other hand, in Argentina the voting age is 18 but those aged between 16 and 18 may also vote. In addition to this, voting is optional for citizens aged 70 and above.
 

Countries Whose Legal Voting Age Is 19 

South Korea is the only nation in which the legal voting age for the citizens is 19 years. 

 

Countries With Legal Voting Ages Of 20 Or Above 

The countries whose legal voting age is 20 include Nauru, Taiwan, and Bahrain. On the other hand, those states who can vote when 21 years or older are Oman, Samoa, Tokelau, Tonga, Singapore, Malaysia, Kuwait, Jersey, and Cameroon. The United Arab Emirates has the oldest legal voting age in the world. Citizens can only vote when they attain the age of 25 or older. Notwithstanding the legal voting age, voting is a constitutional right that needs to be exercised by all citizens of a country.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.worldatlas.com/amp/articles/legal-voting-age-by-country.html
 

Seems like there’s a lot of wiggle room globally and I’m not sure if the consequences of a 16 year old voting in America would be anything more than nominal. 

[softlynow 1,783]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

14 year olds can drive in hardship cases in some states. Driving a car isn’t a good proxy for the type of judgment required for voting.  It’s more fine motor skills, coordination, capability of understanding signs and rules, etc. Also, 16-17 year olds are by far the most dangerous drivers on the road per mile driven and it’s not even close, so that’s not a ringing endorsement. 

I am loath to give credence to most R arguments, but the ability to comprehend long term consequences and appropriate ways to relate to society (ie, capability to be charged with a crime as an adult) is a better proxy for your readiness to participate in government. I don’t see how you say someone can vote for the legislators that write laws, but not be subject to the laws they’re voting for. 

 

You need to clarify this a bit more. In Texas juveniles can be transferred to criminal court (to be tried as an adult) at age 14 for capital murders and certain other first degree offenses, and at age 15 for other felonies. 17 is our age of criminal majority.

Each state has differing ages for both juveniles that can be transferred and outright majority, some allowing transfer as low as 10 years old.

 

[Pato del Muerto 52,342]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’d far rather stop taxing 16 year olds on their income.  I’d leave in place payroll taxes for them and SS withholding (to avoid a perverse incentive not to hire adults) and give them a stub that shows what they will be losing once they turn 18. Would be a nice transition phase for them to learn responsibility and how to hold a job. 

What 16 and 17 year olds do you know that are making enough income that the standard deduction doesn’t wipe out their tax liability in its entirety?

and if it’s because they are working full time and not going to school, then they do need to be paying those taxes. 

[Js1 85,110]

15 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm sympathetic to the argument that if 16 year olds can work and pay income taxes then they should be able to vote, but I don't see many of them ever actually voting. 

Unless they can vote on Tik Tok, unlikely.

[956 Worldwide 34,443]

Quote

Countries Whose Legal Voting Age Is 16 

The legal voting age for Nicaragua, Scotland, Isle of Man, Guernsey, Ethiopia, Ecuador, Cuba, Brazil, and Austria is 16 years.
 

Countries Whose Legal Voting Age Is 17 

Countries whose legal voting age is 17 are Sudan, South Sudan, North Korea, Indonesia, Greece, and East Timor. Even though the voting age in Indonesia is 17 years old, married persons are required to vote regardless of their age.

There isn’t really a correlation, but for argument’s sake. From those countries:

 

1. Austria has a grownup government and most of the world envies it. 
2. Scotland and the Isle of Man have a real country to take care of all the super important stuff and bail them out if they screw up. They’re auditing this class for no credits. 

3. Greece is one of two countries that most frequently makes other grownup countries ask “can we kick someone out of the EU?”

4. Brazil is the valedictorian from the remainder of that club. Ouch. 

[956 Worldwide 34,443]

4 minutes ago, softlynow said:

You need to clarify this a bit more. In Texas juveniles can be transferred to criminal court (to be tried as an adult) at age 14 for capital murders and certain other first degree offenses, and at age 15 for other felonies. 17 is our age of criminal majority.

Each state has differing ages for both juveniles that can be transferred and outright majority, some allowing transfer as low as 10 years old.

 

I would be absolutely fine with not trying anyone under 18 as an adult. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

28 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

All this is dodging the real issue. There needs to be a maximum voting age. Adding incompetent left leaning voters in early life to balance incompetent right leaning voters in later life is a bad idea.  It is true that not every 70+ year old is incompetent, but neither is every 16 or 17 year old.  We have been happy with a bright line for one so why not for the other?  But its also true that the 16 and 17 year olds have to live in this world that fearful old people try to burn down on their way out the door.  When a coach is about to get fired, you don't let him burn the team to the ground. You keep him corralled until his time is up. 

I’m not a fan of the maximum age limit because life expectancy can fluctuate a lot over time plus plenty of 80 year olds are still working and paying taxes, they shouldn’t be denied the vote IMO. 

[Herpa Derpa 6,112]

Absolutely not.  The sooner we stop listening to morons with an underdeveloped frontal cortex the sooner we can get back a world of adults making decisions for adults.  The invention of the teenager did more damage to society than any war, famine or plague ever could.

Stop trying to be friends with your kids. Stop trying to live like a child in your 40s.  

Raise the age to 25, with a cutoff at 85.  Keep the addled and the adolescent on the sidelines where they belong.

[956 Worldwide 34,443]

16 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

What 16 and 17 year olds do you know that are making enough income that the standard deduction doesn’t wipe out their tax liability in its entirety?

and if it’s because they are working full time and not going to school, then they do need to be paying those taxes. 

You can easily do that. It’s a bit more than 16 hours a week at 15 dollars an hour to get to the standard deduction. If you have a weekend or couple hours after school in the school year and then work full time in the summer, then you are there. Lifeguards, swim instructors... you can hit that without too much problem at all. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by 956 Worldwide

[softlynow 1,783]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I would be absolutely fine with not trying anyone under 18 as an adult. 

So a 16 year old rapes and murders a couple girls and is released from TJJD on his 19th birthday with no criminal conviction on his record?

Not sure you have the votes for that particular reform.

[smuggs 9,342]

Lower age to 16 and run Gritty as the FUZZ Party candidate in '24.

 

 

[956 Worldwide 34,443]

4 minutes ago, softlynow said:

So a 16 year old rapes and murders a couple girls and is released from TJJD on his 19th birthday with no criminal conviction on his record?

Not sure you have the votes for that particular reform.

That wouldn’t necessarily be what happens. And I know the votes aren’t there, but it’s not particularly odd to never try minors as adults.  There are whole countries that do this, including more than a few that seem to manage crime a lot better than we do. 

[Mole 4,320]

I’m more comfortable with a 16 year old voting than a 16 year old driving.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Most voters are uninformed idiots right now  regardless of age so it’s kinda laughable that the strongest argument against 16 year olds voting is they can’t make good informed decisions like the rest of our imbecilic society. 

[softlynow 1,783]

4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

That wouldn’t necessarily be what happens.

If you don't try him as an adult, that's what happens.

[956 Worldwide 34,443]

Just now, softlynow said:

If you don't try him as an adult, that's what happens.

Yeah, unless when you pass the law that removes the option for trial as an adult, you also pass language that adds additional flexibility and also mandates additional resources to rehabilitation when it comes to juvenile sentencing. 

[softlynow 1,783]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Yeah, unless when you pass the law that removes the option for trial as an adult, you also pass language that adds additional flexibility and also mandates additional resources to rehabilitation when it comes to juvenile sentencing. 

So you're in favor of a complete redesign of the juvenile justice system simply to match the criminal majority age with your preferred voting eligibility age? The flexibility and resources are there (to the extent they're going to be) - just transfer the kid to criminal court. 15 year olds sometimes need to go to prison or go on probation for 10 years.

[956 Worldwide 34,443]

Just now, softlynow said:

So you're in favor of a complete redesign of the juvenile justice system

Yes.