Lowering the voting age to 16? Why not?

[Neonmoon 38127]

Yeah lower the voting age, and draft age, and other age 

[softlynow 1783]

22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Yes. 

Why?

[956 Worldwide 34443]

8 minutes ago, softlynow said:

Why?

Because currently it’s very good at helping juvenile offenders move along the path to grownup criminal consuming my tax dollars; and not really good for helping them learn to live in a society and pay taxes. 

[formermav43 4599]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Most voters are uninformed idiots right now  regardless of age so it’s kinda laughable that the strongest argument against 16 year olds voting is they can’t make good informed decisions like the rest of our imbecilic society. 

But there's no strong argument for it, either. When the 26th amendment was passed, the primary push was due to the draft - if you're old enough to fight, you're old enough to vote. That's logical.

There's no connection to anything like that with 16 year olds. They're "organizing and mobilizing." Ok? What about those kids younger than 16 who are doing the same? What about the vast majority of 16 year olds who aren't doing that? Choosing 16 is completely arbitrary. And while you could argue that it's no more arbitrary than 18, I suppose, that has the advantage of being the age of majority in most states, as well as the age most people graduate high school (plus the voting age for most countries in the world, as you already pointed out).

[ztejas 43266]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Most voters are uninformed idiots right now  regardless of age so it’s kinda laughable that the strongest argument against 16 year olds voting is they can’t make good informed decisions like the rest of our imbecilic society. 

This is like saying we might as well let horses vote because even though they're stupid and don't understand politics so are people.

Yes people are uninformed idiots. And they're even more so at 16. Whatever your LCD is right now it would be even lower if you lowered the voting age. Don't like 22 year old coal mine worker Jethro from Meth county's stance on abortion? Then you're going to love listening to 16 year old Makayla's thoughts on foreign policy!

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

41 minutes ago, ztejas said:

This is like saying we might as well let horses vote because even though they're stupid and don't understand politics so are people.

Yes people are uninformed idiots. And they're even more so at 16. Whatever your LCD is right now it would be even lower if you lowered the voting age. Don't like 22 year old coal mine worker Jethro from Meth county's stance on abortion? Then you're going to love listening to 16 year old Makayla's thoughts on foreign policy!

I could cherry pick throughout history, all day, of 16 year olds doing leadership position shit in society, including George Washington.  But I’m not going to do that because it’s as silly as making broad generalizations about how reckless it is to allow 16 year olds to vote. 
 

I honestly don’t feel strongly about this issue but I am for more participation in a democratic society and at age 16, I think most are capable of participating in society, including voting.  

Edited March 4, 2021 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Sawbonz 27434]

Be honest Hugo there is a small part of your brain that wishes Trump had won

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

Be honest Hugo there is a small part of your brain that wishes Trump had won

Absolutely not.  I can say that with certainty. 

[Foosters 17733]

2 hours ago, softlynow said:

So a 16 year old rapes and murders a couple girls and is released from TJJD on his 19th birthday with no criminal conviction on his record?

Not sure you have the votes for that particular reform.

I spent 3 years inside the juvenile justice system including representing 3 kids the state was trying to lock up for the rest of their lives for crimes committed at 15 and 16. California has since ended the practice of "transferring up" kids younger than 15.

Not sure how Texas would do it, but I'm unclear why they would have to be released on their 19th birthday. Here, juvenile jurisdiction for those in DJJ (Juvy prison) ends at age 25. Honestly, the programming and rehabilitation that the kids get for the 7-9 years they are in is so far beyond what adult prisoners receive its not even comparable. They get mentors, they get actual job training and linkage to union jobs upon release, and they receive an actual education with teachers in classroom settings. Not to go to deep into it, but the life stories of the three I represented would bring even the most hardened to tears. These were persons who never had a chance and they had all been severely abused throughout their lifetimes. 

 

[DalTxHornFan 3085]

Speaking as someone who was a real knucklehead in my late teens and early 20's -- voting eligibility should begin at either age 25 or when the the citizen becomes a property owner with something actually at stake -- whichever comes first.

[Guest]

There's only one reason you fuckers ever espouse this stupid bullshit.

You think it favors your political leanings gaining support.

 

Pathetic.

 

[UpperWestside 6136]

This is an interesting topic put forth by a congresswoman I greatly respect and was able to hear speak in-person last August at the March on Washington. I will listen to what folks who voted for President Biden have to say on this issue and only them and it's for this reason. The people who voted for Trump cast a vote for someone with the self-awareness of a child eternally stuck in phase two of Erikson's Psychosocial Theory. Casting your vote for someone whose brain was and is forever taking up lodging in that stage of intelligence development makes your opinion a non-starter.

 

[atomheartbevo 89447]

6 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

but the ability to comprehend long term consequences and appropriate ways to relate to society (ie, capability to be charged with a crime as an adult) is a better proxy for your readiness to participate in government.

If we are going to try a 16 year-old as an adult, then we should at least talk about them voting.

At the very least, we allow 17 year-olds in the military (with parental/guardian permission).

[softlynow 1783]

4 hours ago, Foosters said:

I spent 3 years inside the juvenile justice system including representing 3 kids the state was trying to lock up for the rest of their lives for crimes committed at 15 and 16. California has since ended the practice of "transferring up" kids younger than 15.

Not sure how Texas would do it, but I'm unclear why they would have to be released on their 19th birthday. Here, juvenile jurisdiction for those in DJJ (Juvy prison) ends at age 25. Honestly, the programming and rehabilitation that the kids get for the 7-9 years they are in is so far beyond what adult prisoners receive its not even comparable. They get mentors, they get actual job training and linkage to union jobs upon release, and they receive an actual education with teachers in classroom settings. Not to go to deep into it, but the life stories of the three I represented would bring even the most hardened to tears. These were persons who never had a chance and they had all been severely abused throughout their lifetimes. 

 

You can’t transfer an under 15 y.o. in Texas except for capital murder. 

I’m not sure why the cutoff in the Texas juve system is 19, but it is.

Seems like a much easier fix can be made than a wholesale re-imagining of the system. 

[956 Worldwide 34443]

2 hours ago, softlynow said:

You can’t transfer an under 15 y.o. in Texas except for capital murder. 

I’m not sure why the cutoff in the Texas juve system is 19, but it is.

Seems like a much easier fix can be made than a wholesale re-imagining of the system. 

Trying adolescents as adults so frequently is a toxic byproduct but not my fundamental 

issue. My real issue is that the United Stars locks up minors at a rate higher than any country where we have good data on the question, and it’s not even close—- we are lapping the field.

I might be Ok with that if the high incarceration rate gave us lower juvenile and adult crime rates and safer streets, but we suck at that metric, too.  And Texas has one of the worst records for maintaining humane conditions for the kids we put in kiddie jail. 
 

We just basically suck at our approach to it all. Our system is biased towards ensuring that the most egregious offenders (your hypothetical double rapist and murderer) get the justice we think they deserve as opposed to being biased toward the bulk of offenders getting the support, training, and intervention that could help them become contributing members of society. 

[B00M 6280]

10 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Speaking as someone who was a real knucklehead in my late teens and early 20's -- voting eligibility should begin at either age 25 or when the the citizen becomes a property owner with something actually at stake -- whichever comes first.

So let's see, you're a naturally born citizen with generations of US family, children of your own, and military service, but you rent that condo in an overpriced urban area and only indirectly pay property taxes? ...Sorry!

[Sawbonz 27434]

11 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

This is an interesting topic put forth by a congresswoman I greatly respect and was able to hear speak in-person last August at the March on Washington. I will listen to what folks who voted for President Biden have to say on this issue and only them and it's for this reason. The people who voted for Trump cast a vote for someone with the self-awareness of a child eternally stuck in phase two of Erikson's Psychosocial Theory. Casting your vote for someone whose brain was and is forever taking up lodging in that stage of intelligence development makes your opinion a non-starter.

 

I voted for Biden and I think this is a ridiculous idea. It is simple pandering to the left and has no chance of ever passing. There are several scientific reasons not to allow people that young to make that type of decision that affects all of us. A strong argument on those marriage could be made that we shouldn’t allow people under 25 or 26 to vote, but there are other mitigating circumstances and play and I believe 18 years is reasonable

 

Stupid shit like this is why Democrats are in real danger of losing the house In 2022. 
 

We really need a third party

Edited March 4, 2021 by Sawbonz

[Guest]

12 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Speaking as someone who was a real knucklehead in my late teens and early 20's -- voting eligibility should begin at either age 25 or when the the citizen becomes a property owner with something actually at stake -- whichever comes first.

I owned a bike at age 8.

We cool? I served in the Marine Corps at age 18 and didn't own shit.   So that's a no-go?

The property ownership precursor might have to be adjusted slightly, to "Have you damaged any property?"  That's a shit-ton more inclusive now.

Edited March 4, 2021 by slorch

[SubliminalHorn 6674]

Off topic sorta, where is the general HR1 thread. Looked a bit and didn’t see anything. I’m incredibly lazy though and didn’t look all that hard. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

16 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

There are several scientific reasons not to allow people that young to make that type of decision that affects all of us.

This can work both ways. Climate change is  obviously more important to younger people because they’re the ones that have to live with the long term consequences.  Also, I can’t help but think of the parkland kids that got shot up at school and then mobilized to force their politicians to change Florida’s gun laws because the political will in the voting population wasn’t there.  16 year olds can and are influencing the direction of our society right now without the vote whether we like it or not. They can work on campaigns and mobilize movements.  So, despite your scientific reasons for denying the vote to a 16 year old, their influence on the political process isn’t going anywhere. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

Meh. Are we going to discuss every idea that comes up in a Congressional speech? This is going nowhere.

But the idea that a young adult isn't mature or doesn't have the mental capacities to vote, why not start eliminating the vote for olds unless they can prove their mental acuity.

 

[landman 559]

18 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

It’s not like we can get the youth to vote in great numbers now.  16 year olds make life choices now that influence the rest of their lives already. I’m not sure I buy the “brain not fully developed” argument when kids are working and applying for massive student loans around that age. 

They aren't applying for loans yet.  They are wondering about getting down someone's pants and where the next party is.   They aren't thinking about a job and a mortgage.

[Sawbonz 27434]

22 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This can work both ways. Climate change is  obviously more important to younger people because they’re the ones that have to live with the long term consequences.  Also, I can’t help but think of the parkland kids that got shot up at school and then mobilized to force their politicians to change Florida’s gun laws because the political will in the voting population wasn’t there.  16 year olds can and are influencing the direction of our society right now without the vote whether we like it or not. They can work on campaigns and mobilize movements.  So, despite your scientific reasons for denying the vote to a 16 year old, their influence on the political process isn’t going anywhere. 

Good. Let them influence the process. Don’t give them the franchise

[softlynow 1783]

7 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Trying adolescents as adults so frequently is a toxic byproduct but not my fundamental 

issue. My real issue is that the United Stars locks up minors at a rate higher than any country where we have good data on the question, and it’s not even close—- we are lapping the field.

I might be Ok with that if the high incarceration rate gave us lower juvenile and adult crime rates and safer streets, but we suck at that metric, too.  And Texas has one of the worst records for maintaining humane conditions for the kids we put in kiddie jail. 
 

We just basically suck at our approach to it all. Our system is biased towards ensuring that the most egregious offenders (your hypothetical double rapist and murderer) get the justice we think they deserve as opposed to being biased toward the bulk of offenders getting the support, training, and intervention that could help them become contributing members of society. 

In my experience, the juveniles who actually are incarcerated, beyond local detention, have seriously injured people. The system is designed to skew towards rehabilitation, and all but one of my juvenile clients have spent only a brief period detained, and were released to their parents/guardians pretty quickly.

The exception was horrific. I fought the transfer, and was able to delay it for almost a year. When his case was officially transferred he was 17, and he turned 18 before he pled (I didn't keep the case because he could afford me for the transfer, but became eligible for a court-appointed attorney once his case was transferred).

I'm a big proponent of better facilities and more rehabilitation services for people that need to be incarcerated. But from what I've seen, it takes quite a lot for juveniles, even in the most conservative counties of this state, to reach the point where that need arises.

[UpperWestside 6136]

7 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I voted for Biden and I think this is a ridiculous idea. It is simple pandering to the left and has no chance of ever passing. There are several scientific reasons not to allow people that young to make that type of decision that affects all of us. A strong argument on those marriage could be made that we shouldn’t allow people under 25 or 26 to vote, but there are other mitigating circumstances and play and I believe 18 years is reasonable

 

Stupid shit like this is why Democrats are in real danger of losing the house In 2022. 
 

We really need a third party

You're right. The odds of this passing are probably around the same as the odds on the Lakers calling me up and signing me to play shooting guard. Where I do think this garners some positivity for the Democratic Party is that the teenagers who will vote and take part in our democratic process at age 18 see a member of one party that advocated for them to have a voice sooner. I highly doubt a great many of them realize this would have never happened. 

However what I want to see from Congress, and I have said this recently, is this. Pass BILLS, BILLS and more BILLS that help the American people from all walks of life and political stripes. Democrats need to continue putting forth actual legislation every single day. Not just the stimulus legislation. The George Floyd police bill and the voting rights bill need to be followed by about three dozen other bills. Challenge people like Ron Johnson to attempt to stop an onslaught of bills that are going to help people in his district. I guess perhaps the best description or analogy is just flood the zone with positive legislation that will transform our society when it is in a time of great upheaval. Doing stuff like that is what will guarantee that America trends more towards the Democratic version of society going forward. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

On 3/3/2021 at 1:28 PM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Seems like a 16 year old should have a say in the government he will be getting when he turns 18.  Like, if you’re trying to avoid getting drafted in a war. 

And the corollary is if you hit expected mortality age during the term of the office being contested you get no vote.  If you're expected to check out before shit hits the fan then you don't get to steer things over the cliff.

[Gatorubet 30105]

Let’s take away the franchise for anyone with dementia or senility diagnosis. Children on both ends of the age spectrum, as it were.

[StassneyHorn 6540]

Take away the right to vote for anyone in “im old and can’t do shit” assisted living before you give 16 year olds a vote.

Got really pissed in 2018 when I was voting at a Brooksdale Living location near Research Blvd and saw an OT say “my friend knows her and thinks she is a great person” to some old timer in a chair while she was going through the setup with him.

[DanRydell 799]

The voting age should be pinned to the age at which someone can be criminally tried as an adult. If you’re old enough to be fully responsible for your actions, you’re certainly old enough to vote.