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Cavs vs Raptors

Vic Mackey

By Vic Mackey
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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4,275

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5 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I know you're the wrong person to ask, by why? Other than nostalgia and "6-0 vs. 3-5!" why exactly shouldn't there even be a conversation?

You just said it. For all intents and purposes MJ won six straight titles, and he did so in a time when the East was brutal. MJ’s path to a title through the East was decidedly tougher than what LeBron has faced in the modern East, and MJ didn’t hand pick all of his teammates and coaches either. He’s a six-time Finals MVP, and frankly I think that debate between Kobe and LeBron is a tougher call than Bron vs MJ.

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aggie08

aggie08 21,796

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There is absolutely zero debate between Kobe or LeBron. At best, Kobe just barely sneaks in to the Top 10 All-Time list.

The "brutal" East is highly overstated during MJ's era. Yes, it's more competitive than it is now, but his main rivals were the Ewing/Starks/Oak Knicks and the Miller/Jackson/Smits Pacers. Not exactly murderers' row. They had guys to play physical ball, but absolutely no one on MJ's planet as a basketball player. MJ had to wait until the Celtics and Pistons were on the downswing to take his turn in a little bit of a watered-down league fresh off expansion.

And he never played Finals' opponents in the same realm as the Warriors or even the "beautiful game" Spurs.

 

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d2o

d2o 1,603

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1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

There is absolutely zero debate between Kobe or LeBron. At best, Kobe just barely sneaks in to the Top 10 All-Time list.

The "brutal" East is highly overstated during MJ's era. Yes, it's more competitive than it is now, but his main rivals were the Ewing/Starks/Oak Knicks and the Miller/Jackson/Smits Pacers. Not exactly murderers' row. MJ had to wait until the Celtics and Pistons were on the downswing to take his turn.

And he never played Finals' opponents in the same realm as the Warriors or even the "beautiful game" Spurs.

 

The romanticism of those Knick and Pacer teams is wild to me.    I think a lot of that is to prop up MJ more.    Those teams were just like the Raps, Hawks and Pacers from the last few yrs against LBJ teams.   Teams with good records that you knew had ZERO chance of beating the MJ/LBJ led teams when it came playoff time.

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immortal13

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17 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I know you're the wrong person to ask, by why? Other than nostalgia and "6-0 vs. 3-5!" why exactly shouldn't there even be a conversation?

If that wasn't enough, and it is, Jordan most likely would have won more had he not taken a year off. He also is the greatest scorer in the history of the NBA. At the end of the day, Jordan was perfect in championship games while LBJ may end up with more Finals losses as Jordan has wins. Jordan also won a college National Championship. 

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47,953

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19 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

You just said it. For all intents and purposes MJ won six straight titles, and he did so in a time when the East was brutal. MJ’s path to a title through the East was decidedly tougher than what LeBron has faced in the modern East, and MJ didn’t hand pick all of his teammates and coaches either. He’s a six-time Finals MVP, and frankly I think that debate between Kobe and LeBron is a tougher call than Bron vs MJ.

He didn't win 6 straight. That is fucking retarded logic. Ask Rockets fans if he won 6 straight. He 3 peated twice.

Also, MJ's opponents in the Finals don't even come close to Lebron's. He was favored to win every single one of them.

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d2o

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1 minute ago, Vic Mackey said:

He didn't win 6 straight. That is fucking retarded logic. Ask Rockets fans if he won 6 straight. He 3 peated twice.

Also, MJ's opponents in the Finals don't even come close to Lebron's. He was favored to win every single one of them.

Right, his team was the best team in the league every single time they went to the Finals.

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aggie08

aggie08 21,796

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I'm an MJ guy too, but the people who won't even entertain the conversation are hilarious to me. Nostalgia is an amazing thing. 

I've got MJ over LeBron for one simple reason: the 2011 Finals would have never, ever happened to MJ. He would have left it all on the court, not hid in the corner, scared of the moment.

But LeBron clearly used that low point to build upon, and this 7 year stretch has been nothing short of remarkable.

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immortal13

immortal13 4,059

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9 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

He didn't win 6 straight. That is fucking retarded logic. Ask Rockets fans if he won 6 straight. He 3 peated twice.

Also, MJ's opponents in the Finals don't even come close to Lebron's. He was favored to win every single one of them.

Lulz, you are the fucking retard. If Jordan hadn't retired, it would've been 8 in a row and Houston would have zero rings

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4,275

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10 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

He didn't win 6 straight. That is fucking retarded logic. Ask Rockets fans if he won 6 straight. He 3 peated twice.

Also, MJ's opponents in the Finals don't even come close to Lebron's. He was favored to win every single one of them.

FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES you mongoloid. And how does your comment about his Finals opponent take anything away from his path to the Finals? It doesn’t. The East has been a running joke during LeBron’s time in the league. You’re once again high out of your mind if you think that LeBron makes it to 8 stttaight Finals (or whatever the number is going to be) if his Cavs teams had to play against the 90’s East.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4,275

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Yeah, go ahead and convince yourselves that LeBron wanted the ball here: 

That’s an open and shut case right there. He didn’t even try to get in the play. Let’s me repeat: he never tried to be involved in this play. And that’s what the entire dumbass debate was about- whether or not LeBron avoided being the one to take those FT’s right after having missed 1/2. This video doesn’t lie, and once again I have a hard time picturing Kobe or MJ doing what LeBron did in this video. He clearly did not want the ball.

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immortal13

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14 minutes ago, d2o said:

The romanticism of those Knick and Pacer teams is wild to me.    I think a lot of that is to prop up MJ more.    Those teams were just like the Raps, Hawks and Pacers from the last few yrs against LBJ teams.   Teams with good records that you knew had ZERO chance of beating the MJ/LBJ led teams when it came playoff time.

Prop up MJ.....lmao 

 

14 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

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d2o

d2o 1,603

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5 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I'm an MJ guy too, but the people who won't even entertain the conversation are hilarious to me. Nostalgia is an amazing thing. 

I've got MJ over LeBron for one simple reason: the 2011 Finals would have never, ever happened to MJ. He would have left it all on the court, not hid in the corner, scared of the moment.

But LeBron clearly used that low point to build upon, and this 7 year stretch has been nothing short of remarkable.

same but there are 4 people that I will entertain a discussion on as GOAT.   Cap, Magic, MJ, and now LBJ.  thats it

 

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d2o

d2o 1,603

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2 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

So you won’t even entertain the idea that Kobe is LeBron’s equal? That’s funny.

He isn't.   Multiple first round exits and lottery visits prove it.   Additionally, he made no one better.....ever.    Interesting that as much as you harp on that with Russ that you would give Kobe a pass on it.

Additionally, Kobe is supposed to be the better scorer yet LBJ avg's almost 3 ppg more.   All while doing everything else for his team

 

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Goo Punch

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2 minutes ago, d2o said:

Losing the first round is better than losing in the Finals.   Got it

 

First, who the hell said that? Second, this is rich coming from a guy who just intimated that the East of the 80’s and 90’s wasn’t any better than the East during LeBron’s career, an asinine assertion.

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Goo Punch

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1 minute ago, d2o said:

He isn't.   Multiple first round exits and lottery visits prove it.   Additionally, he made no one better.....ever.    Interesting that as much as you harp on that with Russ that yiu would give Kobe a pass on it.

What are you, 12? Losing in the playoffs “proves” that one player is better than another? Yeah that “proves” that LBJ is better than Kobe the same way that Floyd Mayweather being undefeated “proves” that he was a better fighter than Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammed Ali, and Jack Johnson. Give me a break. 

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UDontKnow

UDontKnow 10,571

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12 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Lulz, you are the fucking retard. If Jordan hadn't retired, it would've been 8 in a row and Houston would have zero rings

Bullshit. Jordan's Bulls lost to Shaq and Penny's Magic in the Eastern Conference Finals. The same Magic that got swept by the Rockets for their second championship in '94-95. And you'll probably respond by saying, "Oh but Jordan had come back during the middle of the season." Bullshit. Hakeem had a winning record against MJ. GTFO with that "Houston would have zero rings" you cretin.

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immortal13

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1 minute ago, UDontKnow said:

Bullshit. Jordan's Bulls lost to Shaq and Penny's Magic in the Eastern Conference Finals. The same Magic that got swept by the Rockets for their second championship in '94-95. And you'll probably respond by saying, "Oh but Jordan had come back during the middle of the season." Bullshit. Hakeem had a winning record against MJ. GTFO with that "Houston would have zero rings" you cretin.

Lulz

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Goo Punch

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1 minute ago, UDontKnow said:

Bullshit. Jordan's Bulls lost to Shaq and Penny's Magic in the Eastern Conference Finals. The same Magic that got swept by the Rockets for their second championship in '94-95. And you'll probably respond by saying, "Oh but Jordan had come back during the middle of the season." Bullshit. Hakeem had a winning record against MJ. GTFO with that "Houston would have zero rings" you cretin.

Uh, yeah. Why wouldn’t you reply with that? That’s exactly what happened. Six years in a row where MJ starts the season, you know, actually playing the sport, and his team wins it all. But you believe that’s “bullshit”. Of course you do H Town. 

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UDontKnow

UDontKnow 10,571

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1 minute ago, Goo Punch said:

Uh, yeah. Why wouldn’t you reply with that? That’s exactly what happened. Six years in a row where MJ starts the season, you know, actually playing the sport, and his team wins it all. But you believe that’s “bullshit”. Of course you do H Town. 

So then you believe that the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles?

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47,953

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18 minutes ago, d2o said:

Right, his team was the best team in the league every single time they went to the Finals.

Exactly. If Lebron had the best team in the NBA and played a weaker opponent when he got to the Finals, he'd have a better record as well. As he did when played OKC in 2012. But Lebron gets punished for losing to the Warriors in 2015 when it Delladova (sp?) was the 2nd best player on the court. Or losing to a video game roster in GSW last year. Or taking that trash lineup to the Finals in 2007 and playing the Spurs in the midst of their great teams. Remember when MJ didn't have the better teams? Yeah, he lost as well well before the Finals. Yet he gets a pass for all of those.

Lebron has 2 questionable Finals losses. 2011 Mavs and 2014 Spurs. On paper, they were better than the Mavs. Iffy against the Spurs but they definitely should not have got blown out 3 straight games the way they did.

Replace MJ and Lebron on their Finals runs and are the results different? Does Lebron lose one of the Finals with the Bulls? Does Jordan grab an extra Finals win that Lebron couldn't? I don't think so. 

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Message Board User

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The fact that some people still believe these arguments (Lebron doesn't have a killer instinct, Kobe was better) shows that some people are just flat-earthers and all the science courses you make them take and all the globes you buy them are a waste of time and money.  

It reminds me of my mother-in-law who believes that earthquakes are God's wrath and there's no such thing as plate tectonics.  Debating is an unquestionable waste of time and effort.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4,275

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Just now, Message Board User said:

The fact that some people still believe these arguments (Lebron doesn't have a killer instinct, Kobe was better) shows that some people are just flat-earthers and all the science courses you make them take and all the globes you buy them are a waste of time and money.  

It reminds me of my mother-in-law who believes that earthquakes are God's wrath and there's no such thing as plate tectonics.  Debating is an unquestionable waste of time and effort.

Who made those arguments? Can you actually quote anyone here as saying either of those things?

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4,275

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4 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Exactly. If Lebron had the best team in the NBA and played a weaker opponent when he got to the Finals, he'd have a better record as well. As he did when played OKC in 2012. But Lebron gets punished for losing to the Warriors in 2015 when it Delladova (sp?) was the 2nd best player on the court. Or losing to a video game roster in GSW last year. Or taking that trash lineup to the Finals in 2007 and playing the Spurs in the midst of their great teams. Remember when MJ didn't have the better teams? Yeah, he lost as well well before the Finals. Yet he gets a pass for all of those.

Lebron has 2 questionable Finals losses. 2011 Mavs and 2014 Spurs. On paper, they were better than the Mavs. Iffy against the Spurs but they definitely should not have got blown out 3 straight games the way they did.

Replace MJ and Lebron on their Finals runs and are the results different? Does Lebron lose one of the Finals with the Bulls? Does Jordan grab an extra Finals win that Lebron couldn't? I don't think so. 

So you’re just going to keep ignoring the fact that the East was the dominant conference during MJ’s run while it’s been by far the weaker conference during LeBron’s run? That’s what you’re going with? Your argument is that the teams from the West were weaker which diminishes what Jordan did, despite the fact that East, the conference he actually had to get through just to make the Finals, was far superior to what it is today? Guess what? LeBron’s Cavs wouldn’t have made x amount of consecutive Finals appearances if the East had a pulse during his time in the league. But great argument. The fact that MJ played in the dominant conference diminishes what he did and props LeBron up. That’s just brilliant.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4,275

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29 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Yeah, go ahead and convince yourselves that LeBron wanted the ball here: 

That’s an open and shut case right there. He didn’t even try to get in the play. Let’s me repeat: he never tried to be involved in this play. And that’s what the entire dumbass debate was about- whether or not LeBron avoided being the one to take those FT’s right after having missed 1/2. This video doesn’t lie, and once again I have a hard time picturing Kobe or MJ doing what LeBron did in this video. He clearly did not want the ball.

Nobody? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Everybody talking that shit last night saying that LeBron didn’t *clearly* avoid getting the ball in that situation can go ahead and eat crow whenever they want.

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Brew

Brew 3,049

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17 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

5280- you’re pathetic.

c183ad60d0a7683cd9b1603e2a1a7474.jpg

Pot/kettle, you are negging people for making points related to opinions. I’ve been hitting them with positive just toncounteract your stupidity.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4,275

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Just now, Brew said:

Pot/kettle, you are negging people for making points related to opinions. I’ve been hitting them with positive just toncounteract your stupidity.

First off, wrong. Second, not sure how you can equate serial negging while refusing to even take part in the conversation to what I’m doing. Get your panties untwisted and go sit down somewhere.

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Brew

Brew 3,049

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1 minute ago, Goo Punch said:

First off, wrong. Second, not sure how you can equate serial negging while refusing to even take part in the conversation to what I’m doing. Get your panties untwisted and go sit down somewhere.

There is only one person in this thread with their panties twisted like usual.

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