Cavs vs Raptors

[Rockethorn1978 6,098]

10 minutes ago, d2o said:

Is winning titles the only factor in your determination of who is better?

 

Lol for me yes? What else are they playing for? Do I think lebron is the most physically opposing athlete to ever play basketball? Yes by far. But in a 7 game series in the finals I’ve seen him slink away, mj especially rose to another level and took over. When it mattered most. 

[Rockethorn1978 6,098]

16 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

Wow. Kobe over Lebron? Interesting.

 

I'd take Bron, MJ, Duncan, Hakeem, Bird, Kareem, Magic, Shaq all over Kobe. Probably a couple others too. Crazy that as good as his career was, he wasn't even the best Laker of all time.

What makes magic or Kareem better? Kareem played in a different era, not sure how effective he would be today or even in the 90’s as centers got even better and the game changed. I’m looking at killer instinct on the big stage not just numbers. 

 

[Pam Cummings 9,646]

15 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

What makes magic or Kareem better? Kareem played in a different era, not sure how effective he would be today or even in the 90’s as centers got even better and the game changed. I’m looking at killer instinct on the big stage not just numbers. 

 

I mean, statistically speaking, and also with accolades, Kareem and Magic have everything over Kobe. Never missed the playoffs. All that.

 

This is just one of those debates that will never have an answer, and you really can't go wrong with any choice.

[BigOrange1 6,442]

only an idiot would take kobe over lebron.

[Brothahorn 10,087]

6 minutes ago, BigOrange1 said:

only an idiot would take kobe over lebron.

Talent wise, yep.

The only reason Bron Bron isn't the undisputable goat is because of the mental toughness aspect. Talent wise, no one can touch him(it hurts by heart to say that). The dude is just an unstoppable force, when he wants to be. But, there have been times when he layed down on the court.

[Rockethorn1978 6,098]

33 minutes ago, BigOrange1 said:

only an idiot would take kobe over lebron.

I know no one can be as wise as you. Thanks for bringing all that wisdom to the table. You can take 3-5 in the nba finals lebron all you want. I’ll take mj and Kobe. Then after my team wins you can talk about how great lebron is because he beat Toronto in the worse conference in nba history. 

[CurlyDumps 4,476]

35 minutes ago, BigOrange1 said:

only an idiot would take kobe over lebron.

Never go full Barkley.  

 

[Rockethorn1978 6,098]

25 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Talent wise, yep.

The only reason Bron Bron isn't the undisputable goat is because of the mental toughness aspect. Talent wise, no one can touch him(it hurts by heart to say that). The dude is just an unstoppable force, when he wants to be. But, there have been times when he layed down on the court.

You are clearly an idiot!!! Big orange weenie knows everything about basketball and if you pick someone he doesn’t you are clearly an idiot!

[Goo Punch 4,275]

1 hour ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

What makes magic or Kareem better? Kareem played in a different era, not sure how effective he would be today or even in the 90’s as centers got even better and the game changed. I’m looking at killer instinct on the big stage not just numbers. 

 

Holy shit. Just wow. This is some next level buffoonery. He’s the all-time leading scorer in league history, based largely on a move he invented and perfected which has never been replicated, and you aren’t sure how much success he would have had in the 90’s or today? That’s just a baffling take.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Goo Punch

[Rockethorn1978 6,098]

1 minute ago, Goo Punch said:

Holy shit. Just wow. This is some next level buffoonery.

Lol. You think Kareem would dominate today? And in the nba finals for a 7 game series you would take Kareem over Kobe? Lol. Well I would expect it from you, you said on the shag that being great in the ncaa tourney isn’t the end all be all measuring stick so I should expect it from you. And your butt buddy big orange weenie needed you to come back him up? I see that a lot woth you two love birds. Who gets to play the man when you two bang? Take turns or no?

[Goo Punch 4,275]

1 minute ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

Lol. You think Kareem would dominate today? And in the nba finals for a 7 game series you would take Kareem over Kobe? Lol. Well I would expect it from you, you said on the shag that being great in the ncaa tourney isn’t the end all be all measuring stick so I should expect it from you. And your butt buddy big orange weenie needed you to come back him up? I see that a lot woth you two love birds. Who gets to play the man when you two bang? Take turns or no?

Yes Kareem would dominate today, and in the 90’s, as well as any other era ever. He’s a transcendent player.

 

 

[Message Board User 12,395]

Barkley would say there are 5 or 6 players ahead of Lebron here.

[Rockethorn1978 6,098]

8 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Yes Kareem would dominate today, and in the 90’s, as well as any other era ever. He’s a transcendent player.

 

 

Lol no. That sky hook would not work today. And shaq would have ate his lunch and Kareem is slow. He dominated back then. He would in now way dominate now. Magic was a transcendent player and that’s easy to see. 

 

But this has has nothing to do with my point. I said I would take mj over Kenton and I slipped in Kobe and that’s what everyone focused on. So you would take lebron over mj? 

[Machinator 32,099]

I thought this thread would die. I was wrong. It has metastasized.

[Message Board User 12,395]

5 minutes ago, Machinator said:

I thought this thread would die. I was wrong. It has metastasized.

I would say we need a heavy dose of chemo, but there are like 3 or 4 different cancers on this thread.  Might be time to call in Dr Kevorkian.

[d2o 1,602]

1 hour ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

Lol for me yes? What else are they playing for? Do I think lebron is the most physically opposing athlete to ever play basketball? Yes by far. But in a 7 game series in the finals I’ve seen him slink away, mj especially rose to another level and took over. When it mattered most. 

so is there ever a point where that is not mentioned?  That was 8 yrs ago now.   That can never be redeemed no matter how high of a level he plays at?

 

BTW:  Titles being the only determining factor in a team sport is silly.  

[Rockethorn1978 6,098]

Ok your opinion. To play for my team in a 7 game series in the nba finals I would want mj all day. 

 

So you wouldnt want a guy thats won 5/6 nba titles? What do you want then? Just stats? I never said lebron wasn’t great, there’s just more to basketball to me than physical athletic ability. 

 

[Orca of Peace 109]

1 hour ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

Lol no. That sky hook would not work today. And shaq would have ate his lunch and Kareem is slow. He dominated back then. He would in now way dominate now. Magic was a transcendent player and that’s easy to see. 

 

But this has has nothing to do with my point. I said I would take mj over Kenton and I slipped in Kobe and that’s what everyone focused on. So you would take lebron over mj? 

young Kareem of the 70s was very athletic.  Young Kareem today would get 25-12 easy

Edited May 9, 2018 by Orca of Peace

[WJC88 97]

27 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

Ok your opinion. To play for my team in a 7 game series in the nba finals I would want mj all day. 

 

So you wouldnt want a guy thats won 5/6 nba titles? What do you want then? Just stats? I never said lebron wasn’t great, there’s just more to basketball to me than physical athletic ability. 

 

So you taking Robert Horry before LBJ?

[Rockethorn1978 6,098]

3 minutes ago, WJC88 said:

So you taking Robert Horry before LBJ?

Lol touché. 

[Orca of Peace 109]

Horry won more titles than Jordan

[Dutchrudder 11,141]

Horry won more titles than Jordan

Yeah but he wasn't willing to take the last free throws. What a scrub! SAD!

[Orca of Peace 109]

they never called him "Big Free Throw Bob"

[Pam Cummings 9,646]

3 hours ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

I know no one can be as wise as you. Thanks for bringing all that wisdom to the table. You can take 3-5 in the nba finals lebron all you want. I’ll take mj and Kobe. Then after my team wins you can talk about how great lebron is because he beat Toronto in the worse conference in nba history. 

How does conference strength matter? How is this the thing you use to determine someone's greatness? This isn't the NFL or baseball where some random team can get hot and go on a post season run. In a given year, there are 2 teams capable of winning it all. Doesn't matter which conference they play in.

 

And by the way, who were these juggernauts that MJ was going through? Who were these unstoppable forces that played goliath to MJ's David in the unforgiving gauntlet that was the 90's eastern conference? Did MJ ever beat a team as talented as the 2013 Spurs or 2016 Warriors?

Edited May 9, 2018 by Pam Cummings

[Mole 4,333]

No way Kareem could hang with Kobe or anyone playing today. He's like 72 years old.

The Finals record has never been compelling to me. Was Jordan losing to the Pistons more impressive than LeBron dragging a bad Cavs team to the Finals?

For me it's Jordan, Lebron a close second, some order of the guys previously mentioned plus Mikan  (if we're looking back that far), then Kobe.

[d2o 1,602]

11 hours ago, WJC88 said:

So you taking Robert Horry before LBJ?

Exactly......and Kobe........and MJ

[Thatguy 8,759]

9 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

How does conference strength matter? How is this the thing you use to determine someone's greatness? This isn't the NFL or baseball where some random team can get hot and go on a post season run. In a given year, there are 2 teams capable of winning it all. Doesn't matter which conference they play in.

 

And by the way, who were these juggernauts that MJ was going through? Who were these unstoppable forces that played goliath to MJ's David in the unforgiving gauntlet that was the 90's eastern conference? Did MJ ever beat a team as talented as the 2013 Spurs or 2016 Warriors?

   You are wasting your time. There are people who are going to have MJ at the top of the heap no matter what you say, and a lot of those people either never saw him play when they were old enough to process what they were seeing, or don't really watch Lebron outside of highlights. Much the same as old people used to say about the comparison between Jordan and the guys from the generation before them when I was young. You couldn't suggest that Jordan was better than their favorite basketball players either without the pitchforks and nooses coming out.

 

    People will pretend like guys like John Starks were ever more than a "nice piece", as were most of the guys Jordan was facing in that era. The Jordan Era was largely Jordan getting his butt kicked until the Titans of the 80's faded away, and then beating a bunch of teams that weren't as good as them.  Drexler, Barkley, Payton and Kemp, 33 and 34 year old Malone and Stockton, and then back to 34 and 35 year old Malone and Stockton. It wasn't some gauntlet of juggernauts. Bird and Magic were before him, and Shaq&Kobe were after him.

 

    Lastly, we are in the midst of the Lebron era, so we don't see the full trajectory of some of the careers of the guys that are playing now. When it is all said and done how will we look at the 2012 OKC Thunder team he beat with what will be 3 Hall of Famers on it? What about the 3 Hall of Famers on the Spurs, and the best Power Forward of all time? How will we look at the 73 win GS Warriors when their careers are over? One could say the three rings Bron has are over higher quality opponents than anything Jordan ever made it past. There are many all stars that Lebron is going through now that we don't respect because we are in the midst of their career trajectory.

[immortal13 4,059]

Jordan was the best that's ever been. LBJ is in the discussion, but will always fall short. Jordan was the greatest regular season scorer and playoffs scorer, and yes titles matter. Jordan was perfect in the Finals and Lebron was far far from that. 

[Brian Fantana 6,689]

False equivalency, as has been explained numerous times but hey, keep grinding that axe.

[Chult86 335]

Lock the thread. If you're arguing against someone who thinks Kobe was better than LBJ, you're wasting your time.

 

It's hard to win an argument against a smart person. It's impossible to win an argument against a stupid person.

[Rockethorn1978 6,098]

13 minutes ago, Chult86 said:

Lock the thread. If you're arguing against someone who thinks Kobe was better than LBJ, you're wasting your time.

 

It's hard to win an argument against a smart person. It's impossible to win an argument against a stupid person.

 

13 minutes ago, Chult86 said:

Lock the thread. If you're arguing against someone who thinks Kobe was better than LBJ, you're wasting your time.

 

It's hard to win an argument against a smart person. It's impossible to win an argument against a stupid person.

Lol I love when people come on here and self

proclaim how they are the smartest most rational and know it all posters about a subject that’s opinion based only. So your opinion trumps all? For the record I haven’t been calling anyone names as I stated my case, I said it’s my opinion only, you and big orange are the ones that swooped in calling names like 12 year olds. 

[Message Board User 12,395]

No love for Tom Chambers here?

[Patrick Bateman 3,918]

58 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

No love for Tom Chambers here?

How about Rex Chapman?  Jimmy Jackson?

[immortal13 4,059]

1 hour ago, Message Board User said:

No love for Tom Chambers here?

Oh hell yeah

 

[Orca of Peace 109]

hands down man down

[d2o 1,602]

12 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

hands down man down

Hand up, so what!

[immortal13 4,059]

16 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

hands down man down

So much more bad ass that it was on that clown, Mark Jackson

[Mole 4,333]

1 hour ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

 

Lol I love when people come on here and self

proclaim how they are the smartest most rational and know it all posters about a subject that’s opinion based only. So your opinion trumps all? For the record I haven’t been calling anyone names as I stated my case, I said it’s my opinion only, you and big orange are the ones that swooped in calling names like 12 year olds. 

Your opinion is absurd. I'd put him 4th best player to play for the Lakers behind Mikan, Wilt, Kareem, and Magic, but you could make a case for putting him behind Shaq and Jerry West as well. Putting him ahead of Lebron seems absurd.

[Rockethorn1978 6,098]

2 minutes ago, Mole said:

Your opinion is absurd. I'd put him 4th best player to play for the Lakers behind Mikan, Wilt, Kareem, and Magic, but you could make a case for putting him behind Shaq and Jerry West as well. Putting him ahead of Lebron seems absurd.

ok your opinion and you can have it. 

[d2o 1,602]

6 minutes ago, Mole said:

Your opinion is absurd. I'd put him 4th best player to play for the Lakers behind Mikan, Wilt, Kareem, and Magic, but you could make a case for putting him behind Shaq and Jerry West as well. Putting him ahead of Lebron seems absurd.

[CurlyDumps 4,476]

In the three years between Shaq leaving and Pau Gasol arriving, Kobe "led" the Lakers to 34, 45, and 42 wins, a lottery year,  and two first round playoff exits.

That's your 2nd best player of all time?

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by CurlyDumps

[d2o 1,602]

2 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

In the three years between Shaq leaving and Pau Gasol arriving, Kobe "led" the Lakers to 34, 45, and 42 wins, a lottery year,  and two first round playoff exits.

That's your 2nd best player of all time?

 

Bingo

[CBT 1,282]

21 hours ago, TommyGufano said:

Is Ibaka still with Keri Hilson? That'd be my pick.

And for the very few ppl pumping up Kobe and also shitting on LeBron for the 2011 finals loss for LeBron -- this is a reminder that Dallas swept the Lakers and won game 4 by like fucking 40 pts

And also beat the KD, RW, Harden Thunder in 5 games, who a year later made it to the Finals (against Lebron of course). Ironically(?), it was Dwane Casey's defensive game plan that frustrated Lebron so much that finals. Lebron mentioned it in a PC this year about how much it changed him. It also got Casey his gig in TOR that off season.

Saying Lebron "shou'dve" beaten that Mavs team is disrespectful to Dirk etc, AND I WILL NOT STAND FOR IT.

Now back to the MJ-Lebron debate...

 

[Goo Punch 4,275]

[Brian Fantana 6,689]

Yeah and

[Message Board User 12,395]

On 5/7/2018 at 11:08 AM, Patrick Bateman said:

 

The Raptors seem like a ready made supporting cast for a top 7-8 player to step in and make a run yet somehow they're almost 20 million above the salary cap and barely below the luxury cap.  

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23419189/demar-derozan-toronto-raptors-frustrated-being-benched-poor-play-game-3

Regardless..... it was laughable that some had the Raptors as a top 5 team in the league....

 

Thank goodness for the Spurs, eh?

(Sorry PB, couldn't help it - but kudos for you for pretty much nailing it)

[Patrick Bateman 3,918]

48 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

Thank goodness for the Spurs, eh?

(Sorry PB, couldn't help it - but kudos for you for pretty much nailing it)

Lol!  Hey, a clock is right twice a day, guess this was my time.  A pyrrhic win.  All props to Ujiri, big balls on that dude.  If Kawhi stays and with the PG saga, every team should be looking at AD...

PS:  how long you been holding this?  😂

[Message Board User 12,395]

8 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Lol!  Hey, a clock is right twice a day, guess this was my time.  A pyrrhic win.  All props to Ujiri, big balls on that dude.  If Kawhi stays and with the PG saga, every team should be looking at AD...

PS:  how long you been holding this?  😂

I was just thinking during the game last night about how many were saying "Toronto should blow it up and start tanking b/c they'll never win with this group."  It's easy for those of us on the internets to say that but obviously there's no guarantee that will even work - even teams with relative lottery luck (e.g., the t-wolves) can't seem to get it together and usually making the playoffs is better than not making the playoffs, especially if you are an owner and a GM and forced to look at thousands of empty seats for several seasons while they tank.

Instead, Toronto bided (bode?) its time, ran it back, and then the Kawhi situation fell right into their lap.  And instead of playing it safe like Ainge (but but but Kawhi may not re-sign with us and then we'll have given up future Hall of Famers Marcus Smart & Jaylan Brown for nothing?!?!?!?!?!?), they rolled the dice and hit it out of the park (yeah I mix analogies like that).  Although their playoff results haven't been as dramatic as Toronto this year , the same process worked for OKC & PG13 and even Houston with Harden.

Even if Uncle Dennis Kawhi leaves for the best coast this summer, the trade is already a monster win for the franchise.  And yeah if I'm a small market team (Denver?  Portland?  and maybe one superstar player away (like Toronto a year ago), I absolutely take a chance on AD.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Message Board User

[d2o 1,602]

5 hours ago, Message Board User said:

I was just thinking during the game last night about how many were saying "Toronto should blow it up and start tanking b/c they'll never win with this group."  It's easy for those of us on the internets to say that but obviously there's no guarantee that will even work - even teams with relative lottery luck (e.g., the t-wolves) can't seem to get it together and usually making the playoffs is better than not making the playoffs, especially if you are an owner and a GM and forced to look at thousands of empty seats for several seasons while they tank.

Instead, Toronto bided (bode?) its time, ran it back, and then the Kawhi situation fell right into their lap.  And instead of playing it safe like Ainge (but but but Kawhi may not re-sign with us and then we'll have given up future Hall of Famers Marcus Smart & Jaylan Brown for nothing?!?!?!?!?!?), they rolled the dice and hit it out of the park (yeah I mix analogies like that).  Although their playoff results haven't been as dramatic as Toronto this year , the same process worked for OKC & PG13 and even Houston with Harden.

Even if Uncle Dennis Kawhi leaves for the best coast this summer, the trade is already a monster win for the franchise.  And yeah if I'm a small market team (Denver?  Portland?  and maybe one superstar player away (like Toronto a year ago), I absolutely take a chance on AD.

I dont know if POR has enough to get it done without giving up CJ or Dame but yeah I've been thinking this for a little bit.     Particularly after PG decided to stay.      These teams that think they are close should definitely take a chance on getting a superstar even if they only have one yr left