The Trial of Derek Chauvin

[TexasHooch 5122]

32 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

It appears that they are questioning one potential juror at a time?  Outside the presence of the other potential jurors?  Is that right?

Is that a MN thing TexasHooch?  I can't recall seeing such a thing.  Maybe in a death penalty case?  I can't recall.

Could be a Covid thing or a special circumstance- not sure.  The one time I got that far in voir dire we were questioned as a group in the box.

[TexasHooch 5122]

44 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

Believe the SC case is about his 3rd degree murder conviction, no? The part about "eminently dangerous to others" when Noor's dumbassery was only eminenly dangerous to the white woman he was panic shooting.

 

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/crime/noor-legal-team-appeals-third-degree-murder-charge-to-minnesota-supreme-court/89-567efb3b-13e9-46ae-a63f-ad037fd777d7#:~:text=Noor was convicted of second,death of Justine Ruszczyk Damond.&text=MINNEAPOLIS — The Minnesota Supreme Court,former Minneapolis officer Mohamed Noor.

 

 

Yep.  There's also the whole "Depraved Mind" language that isn't clearly defined.  To me, 3rd Degree was written for out-of-their mind assholes who drive into a crowd, but whatever.  For now, the Noor case is precedential, so they kicked it back on the grounds that the judge should have considered it.  I think there's a fair chance that he says "OK, I've considered the Noor case as precedential, still doesn't fit". We'll see.

Edited March 10, 2021 by TexasHooch

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I thought it was easy to predict the Zimmerman verdict given the law of self defense that I was familiar with and the evidence presented.  This one is not as I don’t know the elements well enough. 

[XYZ 2154]

lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll’s eyes

[Nonbryan 173]

So how long do they expect this trial to go for?

[GopherRock 1765]

56 minutes ago, Nonbryan said:

So how long do they expect this trial to go for?

This point came up in questioning of the current juror. Juror #29 is a civil litigator with a small child. The judge is expecting ~4 weeks of testimony plus deliberations, with the possibility of a complete sequestration for the whole time. Juror was asked if finding child care would be a problem, she said no.

3:15 PM restart.

[TexasHooch 5122]

46 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

This point came up in questioning of the current juror. Juror #29 is a civil litigator with a small child. The judge is expecting ~4 weeks of testimony plus deliberations, with the possibility of a complete sequestration for the whole time. Juror was asked if finding child care would be a problem, she said no.

3:15 PM restart.

Man, if I were a prospective juror I'd be doing everything I could (within reason and the law) to get sent home during selection.  I can't imagine that there are actually people who are not just willing, but actually enthusiastic about the prospect of getting picked for this shitshow.  No thanks.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

2 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

Man, if I were a prospective juror I'd be doing everything I could (within reason and the law) to get sent home during selection.  I can't imagine that there are actually people who are not just willing, but actually enthusiastic about the prospect of getting picked for this shitshow.  No thanks.

I came damned close to getting picked for a jury.  I was on the panel seated in the courtroom, in the first 12.  They had asked a bunch of questions, but hadn't started individual questioning.  Recessed for a minute and it apparently pled out.

On the one hand, I was kind of intrigued by the experience.  On the other, I was a young lawyer thinking with horror of all the deadlines I had coming up in the next week.  Part of that is a kind of hubris that only you could possibly properly draft that motion or file that patent application or whatever.  It was pretty anxiety producing.

[Hanrahan 1306]

I’ve got this one handicapped 4:1 in favor of acquittal due to a evidentiary issues on causation.

[TexasHooch 5122]

16 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I came damned close to getting picked for a jury.  I was on the panel seated in the courtroom, in the first 12.  They had asked a bunch of questions, but hadn't started individual questioning.  Recessed for a minute and it apparently pled out.

On the one hand, I was kind of intrigued by the experience.  On the other, I was a young lawyer thinking with horror of all the deadlines I had coming up in the next week.  Part of that is a kind of hubris that only you could possibly properly draft that motion or file that patent application or whatever.  It was pretty anxiety producing.

Being on a jury is one thing.  I don't fault anyone who thinks it would be a cool experience or is inspired by the idea of civic duty.  This is something else entirely.  You're (probably) going to be locked down for the duration of the trial and the whole damn world will be watching.  No thanks.

[Parliament 14239]

And afterwards, no matter how the trial comes out, you're gonna get death threats.

[Incredulity 11650]

2 hours ago, Hanrahan said:

I’ve got this one handicapped 4:1 in favor of acquittal due to a evidentiary issues on causation.

That’s going to really suck for many downtowns.  See 4 weeks duration above.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Incredulity

[Johnny Sack 8397]

If I was his attorney, causation would be my main theme.  That’s his shot.  Reasonable doubt on causation. Will depend on the experts.  

[GopherRock 1765]

Two more jurors were seated today. The last potential juror questioned today was dismissed, but this came up during said questioning:

 

Sounds like that's what the defense's play is going to be: the choke out wasn't the cause of death. 

[scottsins 1966]

Two more jurors were seated today. The last potential juror questioned today was dismissed, but this came up during said questioning:
 
Sounds like that's what the defense's play is going to be: the choke out wasn't the cause of death. 

Yep.

Going to a LOT of shit about “excited delirium” or whatever.

[StruggleBus 3922]

Plus he had covid soooooooooo

[Hanrahan 1306]

And I thought I read be had an assload of fentanyl in his system. Like potentially a fatal dose outside of the choke and other contributing factors. If that’s accurate, good luck to the prosecutors getting to reasonable doubt on murder.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

43 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

And I thought I read be had an assload of fentanyl in his system. Like potentially a fatal dose outside of the choke and other contributing factors. If that’s accurate, good luck to the prosecutors getting to reasonable doubt on murder.

Not an "assload," which would tend to mean a fatal dose.  It was there, though, along with meth and cannabinoids.  https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus

Neither the state's nor a privately commissioned post-mortem indicated that drugs caused his death, although they disagreed a bit about the cause.

[Not a cat 5652]

12 hours ago, GopherRock said:

Two more jurors were seated today. The last potential juror questioned today was dismissed, but this came up during said questioning:

 

Sounds like that's what the defense's play is going to be: the choke out wasn't the cause of death. 

Yeah, that's their only real play here.  Hammer home the fentanyl in his system and convince the jury Floyd was going to die no matter what.  Even if the police handbook says knee to the neck is ok in this case (and I don't know one way or the other if it does), that's going to come off as a Nuremberg defense to jurors.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

And they are going to have to play up the drugs and how it crazes and gives people strength and how they resist forcefully when on meth and pcp, etc. and that they had no other way to subdue such a drug crazed maniac (though video evidence will be tough to sell this angle, but it can be used to cast reasonable doubt I would bet.)

[kevwun 15761]

I got picked for a Federal jury pool in Houston a couple of years ago.  Luckily the week I was on call was right before a holiday and they never needed to seat a jury so I never had to go in.

[GopherRock 1765]

16 hours ago, TexasHooch said:

Being on a jury is one thing.  I don't fault anyone who thinks it would be a cool experience or is inspired by the idea of civic duty.  This is something else entirely.  You're (probably) going to be locked down for the duration of the trial and the whole damn world will be watching.  No thanks.

One of the potential jurors interviewed on Tuesday was a 19-year-old who was clearly scared out of his mind. The judge wisely dismissed him.

[Not a cat 5652]

On a purely anecdotal note, there has been a lot of real estate activity in my little second ring Minneapolis suburb and almost all the buyers have been from Minneapolis proper.  This progression is fairly normal as yuppies get school age kids and move to the burbs but damn if it doesn't seem to be on steroids this spring.  I'm guessing a lot of folks in Minneapolis are getting nervous about the trial. 

[Hanrahan 1306]

Not an "assload," which would tend to mean a fatal dose.  It was there, though, along with meth and cannabinoids.  https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus
Neither the state's nor a privately commissioned post-mortem indicated that drugs caused his death, although they disagreed a bit about the cause.

Thanks for the correction. I guess they were wrong when they said everything you read on the internet is true. With overdose not a reasonable cause of death, I update my armchair handicapping to 2-1 against a conviction for any murder charge.

[TexasHooch 5122]

6 minutes ago, Not a cat said:

On a purely anecdotal note, there has been a lot of real estate activity in my little second ring Minneapolis suburb and almost all the buyers have been from Minneapolis proper.  This progression is fairly normal as yuppies get school age kids and move to the burbs but damn if it doesn't seem to be on steroids this spring.  I'm guessing a lot of folks in Minneapolis are getting nervous about the trial. 

Oh that's definitely happening.  There was the initial unrest, then the uptick in crime (cause the cops said fuck it), and now the pending doom.  

 

*As I was typing, just heard that the judge has decided to allow the 3rd degree murder charge.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

On a purely anecdotal note, there has been a lot of real estate activity in my little second ring Minneapolis suburb and almost all the buyers have been from Minneapolis proper.  This progression is fairly normal as yuppies get school age kids and move to the burbs but damn if it doesn't seem to be on steroids this spring.  I'm guessing a lot of folks in Minneapolis are getting nervous about the trial. 

Where you at?

[Not a cat 5652]

2 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Where you at?

PWB.  That's Prestigious West Bloomington for you Texans.  Though most know it as the home of Joey Freshwater.

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2663]

I don't know the law in that jurisdiction but usually the cause of death can be more than one thing and still lead to a murder conviction....the issue in such case would be, would he have died but for the action of the officer. Don't know about y'all, but I think Floyd just woulda up and died on his own that day without the dude kneeling on his neck for minutes so that he couldn't breathe as he was begging for his life and saying repeatedly that he couldn't breathe.....

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

PWB.  That's Prestigious West Bloomington for you Texans.  Though most know it as the home of Joey Freshwater.

I’m not Texan lol. Life long Minnesotan But don’t live in the cities.

Haven’t been in PWB since my jnlaws moved out of Rosemount 5 years ago

[BradInATX 9208]

 

25 minutes ago, Not a cat said:

I'm guessing a lot of folks in Minneapolis are getting nervous about the trial. 

Good.

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by BradInATX

[Not a cat 5652]

1 minute ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

I’m not Texan lol. Life long Minnesotan But don’t live in the cities.

Haven’t been in PWB since my jnlaws moved out of Rosemount 5 years ago

Oh I figured from your screen name you'd know, just explaining for the 99% that are non-sotans on this board.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

1 minute ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

I don't know the law in that jurisdiction but usually the cause of death can be more than one thing and still lead to a murder conviction....the issue in such case would be, would he have died but for the action of the officer. Don't know about y'all, but I think Floyd just woulda up and died on his own that day without the dude kneeling on his neck for minutes so that he couldn't breathe as he was begging for his life and saying repeatedly that he couldn't breathe.....

I think, but could be wrong, that most jurisdictions require a little more than cause in fact/but-for causation to sustain a murder conviction.

But, the murderous action doesn't have to be the sole proximate cause of death, either.

I guess legally the argument could be that it wasn't proximate enough.

But the real argument is a sort of jury nullification deal:  this guy was a junkie that kept resisting and might have died anyway.  Doesn't really address the causation issue head on, but asks the jury to ignore it and acquit.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

3 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

I don't know the law in that jurisdiction but usually the cause of death can be more than one thing and still lead to a murder conviction....the issue in such case would be, would he have died but for the action of the officer. Don't know about y'all, but I think Floyd just woulda up and died on his own that day without the dude kneeling on his neck for minutes so that he couldn't breathe as he was begging for his life and saying repeatedly that he couldn't breathe.....

Floyd was complaining about not being able to breathe before Chauvin put his knee on his neck.  Watch the whole video.  He was in pretty bad distress long before the knee to the neck.

https://centaurfilmworks.com/

[Johnny Sack 8397]

And exhibit A will be the medical examiners notes:

Chief Hennepin County Medical Examiner Dr. Andrew Baker said there was "no physical evidence suggesting that Mr. Floyd died of asphyxiation," according to documents obtained by the court as part of a lawsuit from one of the officers involved in Floyd's arrest, Tou Thao.

Baker determined that Floyd's death was the result of a combination of factors. In a memorandum from June 1, Baker noted that Floyd's fentanyl levels were “pretty high" and potentially fatal.

"[Baker] said that if Mr. Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death," the memorandum stated.

[ChickenSandwich 9826]

Does that contradict the private autopsy the family had done?

[SquishMitten 10403]

Man. Juror 36 WANTS to be on this jury? That's insane. First thing out of my mouth if I was called to this is "I will vote guilty because I fear for my life and the lives of others if Chauvin is acquitted." And that would be the 100% truth.

[GopherRock 1765]

10 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Man. Juror 36 WANTS to be on this jury? That's insane. First thing out of my mouth if I was called to this is "I will vote guilty because I fear for my life and the lives of others if Chauvin is acquitted." And that would be the 100% truth.

Not only does Juror 36 want to be there, he was just seated. 

[TexasHooch 5122]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

Floyd was complaining about not being able to breathe before Chauvin put his knee on his neck.  Watch the whole video.  He was in pretty bad distress long before the knee to the neck.

https://centaurfilmworks.com/

Thanks for posting that. I think it pretty well illustrates what the defense is going to argue.  That said, there are two things in particular in the video that pretty much destroyed all of it's credibility for me.

1) The caption on the Urban Dictionary definition of "hooping" is pure subterfuge.   He was telling the cop that he played basketball earlier.  He wasn't telling the guy that he stuffed drugs up his ass- which happens, but mostly for smuggling, not use.  They didn't find any drugs up his ass, and he would have simply had no reason to have done it prior to his interaction with the police.  And even if, why would he admit it.  Pure bullshit. They had already asked if he had taken anything and he said no.

2) The picture of the restraint in the police manual clearly shows a knee to the shoulder, which is still instructed by some jurisdictions.  Maybe MPD still teaches it that way (doubt it, but maybe), but they sure as hell don't tell officers to dig a knee in the neck and leave it there. It's also interesting to note that the training slide they showed in the video clearly states to move the person to the recovery position when cuffed to avoid positional asphyxia and guard against sudden cardiac arrest.  

Edited March 11, 2021 by TexasHooch

[GringoSalado 1651]

1 minute ago, GopherRock said:

Not only does Juror 36 want to be there, he was just seated. 

Hope it ain't Brad.

 

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

 

Good.

 

 

[GopherRock 1765]

2 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

Not only does Juror 36 want to be there, he was just seated. 

Most of the other voir dire followers on Twitter thought that defense was going to strike him right then and there. Instead, it sounded like defense counsel tried to save the strike and get him dismissed for cause. It didn't work. 

[Parliament 14239]

Man. Juror 36 WANTS to be on this jury? That's insane. First thing out of my mouth if I was called to this is "I will vote guilty because I fear for my life and the lives of others if Chauvin is acquitted." And that would be the 100% truth.

Perhaps he sincerely believes he had good judgement and is devoid of prejudice. He wants to make the World just a little better. If so good on him.

[gsoda3 3245]

yest morning i was doing my pre work routine and catching up on news, a reporter was interviewing a trial specialist and he said the question the jury would have to answer was "did the officer act outside of his training?"  is that accurate?  

[kevwun 15761]

There is no way to justify kneeling on the neck of a handcuffed person while 3 other officers stand around and watch.  No cop is trained to do that when they have backup.

Edited March 11, 2021 by kevwun

[TexasHooch 5122]

33 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

yest morning i was doing my pre work routine and catching up on news, a reporter was interviewing a trial specialist and he said the question the jury would have to answer was "did the officer act outside of his training?"  is that accurate?  

Not an attorney, but my guess is that if the answer is yes, it pretty much locks up the manslaughter conviction but doesn't get all the way there on murder.  If the answer is that he didn't act outside of training (narrator: he did), then it helps the defense considerably.

Edited March 11, 2021 by TexasHooch

[fattyflattie 4639]

4 hours ago, BradInATX said:

 

Good.

 

Can you explain?  I feel terrible for the normal people and businesses and are going to get turbofucked for a second time if some lawyer does his job well.  That isn't good, that fucking sucks.  

[sidis 9823]

8 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Can you explain?  I feel terrible for the normal people and businesses and are going to get turbofucked for a second time if some lawyer does his job well.  That isn't good, that fucking sucks.  

i suspect he is trying to make a larger social behavior vis-a-vis the police point...that perhaps cities, specifically their police forces, will be a bit less cavalier in their behavior and not kneel on a subdued suspect's neck with a griin on their face to the point that they die in custody - lest they bring all the disruptive consequences of such a thing to their town.

but brad is often capriciously ill-tempered and can be a bit provocative for the sake of being provocative so who knows...

[GopherRock 1765]

Lou Raguse is KARE-11's man in the courtroom on high profile cases like this one. He interviewed one of the jurors in the Mohammed Noor case from a few years ago.  

 

https://twitter.com/LouRaguse/status/1370081218096730114?s=20

Edited March 11, 2021 by GopherRock

[fattyflattie 4639]

5 minutes ago, sidis said:

i suspect he is trying to make a larger social behavior vis-a-vis the police point...that perhaps cities, specifically their police forces, will be a bit less cavalier in their behavior and not kneel on a subdued suspect's neck with a griin on their face to the point that they die in custody - lest they bring all the disruptive consequences of such a thing to their town.

but brad is often capriciously ill-tempered and can be a bit provocative for the sake of being provocative so who knows...

Yeah I hope the police dept is shitting bricks right now.  They need to modify the procedures, modify the hiring, and modify the attitude of their ranks.  But the citizenship should not be nervous.  The rioting and burning did more damage to this whole deal than anything.  Hard enough to find a juror pool; having to navigate anyone who had any negative experience due to the rioting has to be more difficult.  

[sidis 9823]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

Yeah I hope the police dept is shitting bricks right now.  They need to modify the procedures, modify the hiring, and modify the attitude of their ranks.  But the citizenship should not be nervous.  The rioting and burning did more damage to this whole deal than anything.  Hard enough to find a juror pool; having to navigate anyone who had any negative experience due to the rioting has to be more difficult.  

again, i am projecting my interpretation of what brad is saying from years of forming a character profile of him in addition to everyone else on here based on my read of posts...but i think brad's perspective is that the city's "citizenship" is who is responsible for holding the city's police dept accountable through civic participation and voting.  carrying this line of thought out, brad's point is that if citizens of cities are pissed off and fearful about the disruptive bullshit that follows these incidents around, they will insist on compelling systemic changes in the overall behavior/perspective/training/attitude of domestic police in this country.

it is, of course, naive pollyanna nonsense.  as bill hicks pointed out, people are a fucking virus with shoes. people with authority and power abuse it prescriptively...particularly the types of losers who become the types of shitty cops we have all encountered at one point or another.  always have, always will.  layer on top of that that there are no incentives for highest functioning members of society to become police officers generally speaking.  layer on top of that the actual reality of some of them having to constantly deal with the utterly shittiest people we can offer up in a nation (and that's just northern florida and ohio) that has an economic and social/racial chasm between the haves and and have nots.  but here's to hoping for positive change.

[BradInATX 9208]

32 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Can you explain?  I feel terrible for the normal people and businesses and are going to get turbofucked for a second time if some lawyer does his job well.  That isn't good, that fucking sucks.  

 

Let me preface by saying I don't want businesses to get burned down. I don't care to debate how prevalent that is or who is doing it, but I think a good amount of that is opportunists not associated with BLM up through bad actors looking to frame things a certain way. 

When I say it's "good" that affluent white people are getting uncomfortable with the situation, I mean that it's good. Police officers, who work for and are payrolled by the citizens, are murdering people of color without cause or restraint right in front of our eyes. And as a society, we have basically said that we are permissive of it based on who we vote for and what we support. I'm not saying this as a partisan thing. Police are murderous thugs in just about every city in the country, regardless of party leadership. 

But we have generally accepted and passively allowed criminal behavior from our police forever. Because it doesn't affect most of us. As a society, this is our fault. We should be uncomfortable that on a weekly basis in our country white men in positions of power callously murder people of color with very few consequences. 

Social change doesn't come when people are comfortable. Shit doesn't get fixed when we're sitting around watching Dancing With the Stars and eating pizza.

Edited March 11, 2021 by BradInATX