The Trial of Derek Chauvin

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I think this case is going to swing on the state's medical expert.  If he or she equivocates one bit, that is going to be reasonable doubt.

[Captainant 27979]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I think this case is going to swing on the state's medical expert.  If he or she equivocates one bit, that is going to be reasonable doubt.

racists just love to let cops off for murdering black folks, right?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

racists just love to let cops off for murdering black folks, right?

What the fuck are you babbling about?  Half the jury is BIPOC, which means it is a lot less white than the county at large.  Minnesota is not 1960 Alabama and every political subdivision involved in this thing has been run and controlled by white liberals for 50 years.  If he is acquitted, it is because the state could not prove each element beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense has a damn good shot due to the medical evidence. 

Maybe take a look at it. I was first convinced it was murder.  Now I am not so sure.  The last two days have been really bad for the state.  

[Captainant 27979]

21 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

That makes sense.

This is a representation of what happened. It could be that it wasn't the fentanyl at all, but we'll see more from the prosecution.

lulz I'm sure the crowder's racist ass has some great takes on use of police force against black people.

 

[Reagan1k 3026]

39 minutes ago, kevwun said:

No, it's a desperate defense excuse, but it doesn't matter even if it were true.  If Chauvin shortened Floyd's life by 1 minute, he's still guilty of murder.

This is what I keep going back to.  I asked a law and order / back the blue acquaintance if he would vote to acquit a caregiver of using a pillow to smoother one of his family members as they lay in hospice.  Things got uncomfortable then.

If someone answers yes to that question, then I don't have much to say.  If they answer "no, but".....then it simply illustrates that they are making a value judgement on George Floyd's life and what they think he is or who / what he represents to them.  Neither is a pretty thought.

And, I'm not one who is necessarily averse to the legal imposition of the death penalty, but that isn't carried out in the street, under a knee, by a cop,

[Captainant 27979]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

What the fuck are you babbling about?  Half the jury is BIPOC, which means it is a lot less white than the county at large.  Minnesota is not 1960 Alabama and every political subdivision involved in this thing has been run and controlled by white liberals for 50 years.  If he is acquitted, it is because the state could not prove each element beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense has a damn good shot due to the medical evidence. 

Maybe take a look at it. I was first convinced it was murder.  Now I am not so sure.  The last two days have been really bad for the state.  

I've been looking and watching - what medical evidence specifically has put the trial at risk? That Floyd had fentanyl in his system, and died of asphyxiation while a cop kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes? Is your "reasonable doubt" that there's no way that someone could possibly die from a 9 minute choke out?

The defense has not been doing great, especially considering how it's been affirmed over and over that chauvin was acting outside of his training and the departments policy in using force. Please elaborate more specifically, because I don't see how there's been anything to shake the charge of murder by strangulation.

[JBJ 3684]

2 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

State Witness James Reyerson, Lead Investigator being questioned about video clip:

"Did you hear that?"

"Yes I did."

"Did it appear that Mr. Floyd said 'I ate too many drugs?'"

"Yes it did"

"I'd hate to be driving a Mercedes."

It's pretty unintelligible.

[JBJ 3684]

Dp

Edited April 7, 2021 by JBJ

[Johnny Sack 8397]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I've been looking and watching - what medical evidence specifically has put the trial at risk? That Floyd had fentanyl in his system, and died of asphyxiation while a cop kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes? Is your "reasonable doubt" that there's no way that someone could possibly die from a 9 minute choke out?

The defense has not been doing great, especially considering how it's been affirmed over and over that chauvin was acting outside of his training and the departments policy in using force. Please elaborate more specifically, because I don't see how there's been anything to shake the charge of murder by strangulation.

He did not die of asphyxiation.  The ME said there were no physical signs of asphyxiation. Specifically the ME report said it found "no physical findings" to "support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation". 

He died of a cardiac event. With a fatal level of fentanyl in his system, methamphetamine in his system, the fact that his lungs were 2-3x the normal weight, and that Floyd had heart disease *and* COVID. He died from a cardiac event, but I don’t know how you could unequivocally say that the cardiac event was not brought about by Floyd’s other significant factors. He was complaining about not being able to breathe long before Chauvin put his knee on his neck and back.

The Medical Examiner said Floyd had 11 ng/ml of fentanyl in his system and that deaths have been certified with levels of 3. If we take that as fact, then Floyd had consumed almost 4x the amount of fentanyl that has been proven to kill a person.

The ME also said that Floyd had 19 ng/ml of methamphetamine in his system. The ME claimed this amount was relatively low, but "meth is bad for your heart." The ME also noted that Floyd's heart was at the upper limit of size and that he had a heart condition that can put someone "at risk for death - get to death quicker because it needs more oxygen and certain intoxicants can exacerbate."

I want to see what both medical experts say under oath.  Especially the state's ME.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

24 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

What the fuck are you babbling about?  Half the jury is BIPOC, which means it is a lot less white than the county at large.  Minnesota is not 1960 Alabama and every political subdivision involved in this thing has been run and controlled by white liberals for 50 years.  If he is acquitted, it is because the state could not prove each element beyond a reasonable doubt.

@Captainant if a jury of 50% BIPOC found not guilty (which they won't, which makes this a mental masturbation exercise, admittedly), would you still call it racist? Johnny makes a good point about the jury make up and the venue and region and sentiment of MSP.

[Captainant 27979]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

He did not die of asphyxiation.  The ME said there were no physical signs of asphyxiation. Specifically the ME report said it found "no physical findings" to "support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation". 

He died of a cardiac event. With a fatal level of fentanyl in his system, methamphetamine in his system, the fact that his lungs were 2-3x the normal weight, and that Floyd had heart disease *and* COVID. He died from a cardiac event, but I don’t know how you could unequivocally say that the cardiac event was not brought about by Floyd’s other significant factors. He was complaining about not being able to breathe long before Chauvin put his knee on his neck and back.

The Medical Examiner said Floyd had 11 ng/ml of fentanyl in his system and that deaths have been certified with levels of 3. If we take that as fact, then Floyd had consumed almost 4x the amount of fentanyl that has been proven to kill a person.

The ME also said that Floyd had 19 ng/ml of methamphetamine in his system. The ME claimed this amount was relatively low, but "meth is bad for your heart." The ME also noted that Floyd's heart was at the upper limit of size and that he had a heart condition that can put someone "at risk for death - get to death quicker because it needs more oxygen and certain intoxicants can exacerbate."

I want to see what both medical experts say under oath.  Especially the state's ME.

The preliminary ME report by the police department that just murdered Floyd said there was no evidence of strangulation. And that the cause of death was pulmonary distress. Go figure, almost like theyre defending chauvin just like they actually did after the murder. The family's independent autopsy disagrees and their expert says asphyxiation was the cause of death. 

You're spending so many words to say "Floyd was an unhealthy junkie" as if that makes a difference to the murder charge. If you're a fat fuck with COVID in an ICU, days away from death and your nurse smothers you with a pillow or poisons you, that's still murder. Prior to being arrested (and street-justiced) for a $20 counterfeit, Floyd was walking around and not in any apparent respiratory or pulmonary distress. 

It is not a defense to murder to say that "if he was healthier, it only would have been assault instead of murder". Chauvin LEANED IN to the neck press as it went on longer, in violation of policy. If he had not done that, Floyd would not have died. 

[Captainant 27979]

2 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

@Captainant if a jury of 50% BIPOC found not guilty (which they won't, which makes this a mental masturbation exercise, admittedly), would you still call it racist? Johnny makes a good point about the jury make up and the venue and region and sentiment of MSP.

It only takes one johnny sack on the jury to latch on to anything to dig in their heels to stop a guilty verdict. I don't think this jury will rule not guilty, but rather guilty or hung jury. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Captainant

[Johnny Sack 8397]

4 minutes ago, Captainant said:

The preliminary ME report by the police department that just murdered Floyd said there was no evidence of strangulation. And that the cause of death was pulmonary distress. Go figure, almost like theyre defending chauvin just like they actually did after the murder. The family's independent autopsy disagrees and their expert says asphyxiation was the cause of death. 

You're spending so many words to say "Floyd was an unhealthy junkie" as if that makes a difference to the murder charge. If you're a fat fuck with COVID in an ICU, days away from death and your nurse smothers you with a pillow or poisons you, that's still murder. Prior to being arrested (and street-justiced) for a $20 counterfeit, Floyd was walking around and not in any apparent respiratory or pulmonary distress. 

It is not a defense to murder to say that "if he was healthier, it only would have been assault instead of murder". Chauvin LEANED IN to the neck press as it went on longer, in violation of policy. If he had not done that, Floyd would not have died. 

The ME is not a part of the police department and certainly was not trying to cover for the cop.  And he called it a homicide.

Are you fucking kidding me citing the family's paid whore expert as "independent"?  Come on, man!  Guess what, the state won't be calling that expert.  Because he would get shredded on cross.

 

[dcar00 14609]

51 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

That makes sense.

This is a representation of what happened. It could be that it wasn't the fentanyl at all, but we'll see more from the prosecution.

the crowder video isn't really a good representation.  Floyd's neck is longer and allows chauvin's knee to contact the neck more.  at certain points chauvin's knee looks like its on the back of the head and shoulder blade.  his right knee doesn't appear to be on his back as much as the crowder video shows.

IMO, its the totality of the officers having him in a prone position for a long time, pressing on back and neck restricting his breathing enough that the drugs in his system and the stress put him into cardiac arrest.  dumb all the way around.  he'll get convicted but I think it is manslaughter.

[workswithseed 2140]

2 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

the crowder video isn't really a good representation.  Floyd's neck is longer and allows chauvin's knee to contact the neck more.  at certain points chauvin's knee looks like its on the back of the head and shoulder blade.  his right knee doesn't appear to be on his back as much as the crowder video shows.

IMO, its the totality of the officers having him in a prone position for a long time, pressing on back and neck restricting his breathing enough that the drugs in his system and the stress put him into cardiac arrest.  dumb all the way around.  he'll get convicted but I think it is manslaughter.

Definitely didn't want to say anything absolute. That's why I said representation.

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

33 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

the crowder video isn't really a good representation.  Floyd's neck is longer and allows chauvin's knee to contact the neck more.  at certain points chauvin's knee looks like its on the back of the head and shoulder blade.  his right knee doesn't appear to be on his back as much as the crowder video shows.

IMO, its the totality of the officers having him in a prone position for a long time, pressing on back and neck restricting his breathing enough that the drugs in his system and the stress put him into cardiac arrest.  dumb all the way around.  he'll get convicted but I think it is manslaughter.

This. I seriously doubt this was his first rodeo using this procedure to restrain someone, and why he thought he could get away with it. Honestly surprised we haven’t had a second incident uncovered from the past unless that would be inadmissible?

[dcar00 14609]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

This. I seriously doubt this was his first rodeo using this procedure to restrain someone, and why he thought he could get away with it. Honestly surprised we haven’t had a second incident uncovered from the past unless that would be inadmissible?

I think it is possible that if they had all been on his lower and upper back pushing hard restricting his chest/stomach from moving that the same event could have taken place.  bottom line is they should have rolled him over or hog tied him and put him on his side.

neither side would likely want to discuss a previous incident with the same move.

"see this guy didn't die"

"he has a history of doing this to people that are already handcuffed"

 

[atomheartbevo 90058]

5 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

State Witness James Reyerson, Lead Investigator being questioned about video clip:

"Did you hear that?"

"Yes I did."

Quote

"Did it appear that Mr. Floyd said 'I ate too many drugs?'"

"Yes it did"

The guy you are quoting said, after being shown shown a longer in-context version of that clip Floyd said "'I ain't do no drugs,"

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/07/us/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-day-8/index.html
 

Quote

Senior Special Agent James Reyerson was shown a clip from Minneapolis Police body-camera footage of Floyd saying something while handcuffed and in a prone position on the ground.

Quote

"Did it appear that Mr. Floyd said, 'I ate too many drugs?" defense attorney Eric Nelson asked Reyerson.

"Yes, it did," Reyerson said.

Quote

After a short break, the prosecution played for Reyerson a longer clip of the video that provided the lead up to that comment.

Quote

"Having heard it in context, are you able to tell what Mr. Floyd is saying there?" prosecutor Matthew Frank asked.

"Yes, I believe Mr. Floyd was saying, 'I ain't do no drugs," Reyerson replied.

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by atomheartbevo

[Johnny Sack 8397]

12 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

The guy you are quoting said, after being shown shown a longer in-context version of that clip Floyd said "'I ain't do no drugs,"

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/07/us/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-day-8/index.html
 

 

 

 

Yeah, that does not really help much. Having to go back and rehabilitate your witness statement made during cross. Especially when the medical evidence is going to show he had almost three times the amount of fentanyl in his system that can be lethal.  And his DNA was found on one of the fentanyl pills in the cop car.

I listened to the tape also.  It is more like a gold dress blue dress thing, admittedly.

Floyd was a weird dude and I can rarely understand his gibberish.  See this video of his arrest in 2019 by the Minny cops. I could barely understand him (and he was crying like a little girl when the cops were nothing but professional towards him).

 

[TwiceHorn 31688]

I think Sack is pretty much right.

The causation issue can be dispositive of the case and will depend heavily on the medical expert testimony.

While causation is pretty easy to satisfy, there could be lots of room for reasonable doubt depending on how those experts testify.

Until they get on the stand and testify and get cross-examined, we're pissing in the wind.

[Pato del Muerto 52886]

3 ng of fentanyl may be enough to be fatal in the abstract, but if Floyd was a habitual opiate user he could have developed a nice tolerance, as happens. It’s why Rush was taking so many oxy pills when he got busted.  So 11 ng may not have been a fatal dose for Floyd. Or maybe 11 is enough to kill anyone, I don’t know off hand- but I would hope the people involved in the case do.  I know why the defense would refer to it as a lethal amount. 
 

his behavior immediately before and during the first part of the police interaction isn’t that of someone almost incapacitated by opiates though. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Pato del Muerto

[Johnny Sack 8397]

14 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

3 ng of fentanyl may be enough to be fatal in the abstract, but if Floyd was a habitual opiate user he could have developed a nice tolerance, as happens. It’s why Rush was taking so many oxy pills when he got busted.  So 11 ng may not have been a fatal dose for Floyd. Or maybe 11 is enough to kill anyone, I don’t know off hand- but I would hope the people involved in the case do.  I know why the defense would refer to it as a lethal amount. 
 

his behavior immediately before and during the first part of the police interaction isn’t that of someone almost incapacitated by opiates though. 

If he had just swallowed them, it takes some time for them to take effect.

This case will be won or lost on the ME's cross. If he equivocates, no way Chauvin is convicted.  If he claims there was asphyxiation, which would be him reneging on his initial opinion, he will get eviscerated on cross.  He needs to state that the neck compression and not the drugs caused the cardiovascular event.

State should focus on Brisket's point -- that even if there were lethal drugs in his system that caused his death in part along with his preexisting conditions, Chauvin's knee to neck hastened his death.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

I could barely understand him (and he was crying like a little girl when the cops were nothing but professional towards him).

it's almost as if he was worried they might kill him.

[dcar00 14609]

21 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

If he had just swallowed them, it takes some time for them to take effect.

This case will be won or lost on the ME's cross. If he equivocates, no way Chauvin is convicted.  If he claims there was asphyxiation, which would be him reneging on his initial opinion, he will get eviscerated on cross.  He needs to state that the neck compression and not the drugs caused the cardiovascular event.

State should focus on Brisket's point -- that even if there were lethal drugs in his system that caused his death in part along with his preexisting conditions, Chauvin's knee to neck hastened his death.

has someone stated that he swallowed them right before the encounter?  maybe thats why(among other things) the dealer doesn't want to testify.  he may be the only one that knows when Floyd took the drugs.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

7 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

it's almost as if he was worried they might kill him.

Why would he cry like a little girl?  They did nothing to him but treat him professionally.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

Why would he cry like a little girl?  They did nothing to him but treat him professionally.

you tell me, johnny. you understand the poor black man better than most and always have simple explanations for their actions...

[Johnny Sack 8397]

4 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

you tell me, johnny. you understand the poor black man better than most and always have simple explanations for their actions...

I am guessing because he was a drug addict who knew he wasn't going to be able to get his daily fix while locked up.  But he sure looked like a bitch when he got arrested, and crying when a female cop was just talking to him.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Johnny Sack

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I am guessing because he was a drug addict who knew he wasn't going to be able to get his daily fix while locked up.  But he sure looked like a bitch when he got arrested, and crying when a female cop was just talking to him.

makes sense!

[Johnny Sack 8397]

First witness today, pulmonologist, was good for state.  We'll see how he does on cross.

[SquishMitten 10463]

18 hours ago, Captainant said:

I've been looking and watching - what medical evidence specifically has put the trial at risk? That Floyd had fentanyl in his system, and died of asphyxiation while a cop kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes? Is your "reasonable doubt" that there's no way that someone could possibly die from a 9 minute choke out?

The defense has not been doing great, especially considering how it's been affirmed over and over that chauvin was acting outside of his training and the departments policy in using force. Please elaborate more specifically, because I don't see how there's been anything to shake the charge of murder by strangulation.

The defense has not been doing great. BUT we're still in the stage where the state is making its case. The defense hasn't had their turn to call favorable witnesses/experts/etc yet. All attempts to "shake the charge of murder by strangulation" will come at that point.

[GRHorn 105]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think Sack is pretty much right.

The causation issue can be dispositive of the case and will depend heavily on the medical expert testimony.

While causation is pretty easy to satisfy, there could be lots of room for reasonable doubt depending on how those experts testify.

Until they get on the stand and testify and get cross-examined, we're pissing in the wind.

Haven’t been watching. What do you think of the quality of his defense team? Seems to me that will play a big part. 

[GopherRock 1772]

45 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

First witness today, pulmonologist, was good for state.  We'll see how he does on cross.

According to the pool reporter, many jurors were rubbing and examining their own necks during his testimony prior to the morning break. Very effective for the state.

[SquishMitten 10463]

^^ For those who didn't watch, the pulmonologist instructed them to do that. He walked them through a couple anatomy lessons on their own throats. I was also doing it. I don't think I could've really grasped what he was saying without doing so.

Edited April 8, 2021 by SquishMitten

[Pato del Muerto 52886]

I don’t know the ins and outs of this trial proceeding, or that state’s rules and guidelines, but if they can’t prove his actions and inactions directly caused his death, can there be a conviction on a lesser charge either brought concurrently or that the jury can come up with?

Because it seems like that officer, all of them really, were completely indifferent to the health of the person they were interacting with. Even when he voiced a medical emergency. Even when he went unconscious, there was no sense of urgency from the cops to get him medical help or administer first aid themselves. And that’s based on the videos as well as the testimony of the paramedics that arrived on scene. 
 

but maybe that’s not against the law or against policy for a cop to ignore a person in medical distress. 

[gsoda3 3304]

8 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I don’t know the ins and outs of this trial proceeding, or that state’s rules and guidelines, but if they can’t prove his actions and inactions directly caused his death, can there be a conviction on a lesser charge either brought concurrently or that the jury can come up with?

Because it seems like that officer, all of them really, were completely indifferent to the health of the person they were interacting with. Even when he voiced a medical emergency. Even when he went unconscious, there was no sense of urgency from the cops to get him medical help or administer first aid themselves. And that’s based on the videos as well as the testimony of the paramedics that arrived on scene. 
 

but maybe that’s not against the law or against policy for a cop to ignore a person in medical distress. 

i believe that satisfies minnesota's standard for murder in the third degree. 

[TwiceHorn 31688]

1 hour ago, SquishMitten said:

The defense has not been doing great. BUT we're still in the stage where the state is making its case. The defense hasn't had their turn to call favorable witnesses/experts/etc yet. All attempts to "shake the charge of murder by strangulation" will come at that point.

 

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

Haven’t been watching. What do you think of the quality of his defense team? Seems to me that will play a big part. 

I haven't been watching much either, but from what I have seen, the defense is mostly just taking potshots on cross of the state's witnesses, see above post.  That always looks pretty weak and ineffectual when the state has a solid case and doesn't put up dumb witnesses that can get shot to pieces on cross.  The state seems to be hewing pretty close to the video, which is a smart move, I think.

The defense case will "come alive," if ever, during its case in chief.  And at that point some of the potshots it took during the state's case might look a bit less stupid.

So, how good defense counsel is kind of remains to be seen.  The handling of the state's expert(s) will reveal a lot.

Cases go back and forth like that, it's their nature.

Edited April 8, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Gourmand 7776]

 

[Hanrahan 1306]

Yeah, that don't make no sense.  A person can be in that position with both toes off the ground and still shift most of their weight to one knee or the other.  Hell, you can put almost no weight on one of the knees.  

[Pato del Muerto 52886]

Yeah that’s not a reasonable assumption just based on that.

actually my first attempt at logic would say that the cop’s body weight is likely on the leg that is on the ground, allowing the other one to not be pushed all the way down. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Pato del Muerto

[TwiceHorn 31688]

30 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I don’t know the ins and outs of this trial proceeding, or that state’s rules and guidelines, but if they can’t prove his actions and inactions directly caused his death, can there be a conviction on a lesser charge either brought concurrently or that the jury can come up with?

Because it seems like that officer, all of them really, were completely indifferent to the health of the person they were interacting with. Even when he voiced a medical emergency. Even when he went unconscious, there was no sense of urgency from the cops to get him medical help or administer first aid themselves. And that’s based on the videos as well as the testimony of the paramedics that arrived on scene. 
 

but maybe that’s not against the law or against policy for a cop to ignore a person in medical distress. 

All of the charged offenses require that the defendant "cause[s] the death."  I'm going to make an educated guess that its the same standard of causation for all of them.  So, if the state can't prove that Chauvin caused the death of Floyd, it can't convict on a homicide offense.

Assault and aggravated assault are probably lesser included offenses to homicide offenses.  Depending on MN criminal procedure, the jury may automatically be instructed to consider such lesser included offenses, or one of the parties may have to ask for jury instructions and questions on those.  Without the instructions, the jury can't convict.

[Guest Lobo]

Seriously, my distrust of the police aside, how did the whole "If you can talk, you can breathe" mantra get started?  Was it that ventriloquist dummy at the police's benevolent's talent show that one year?  

I can talk under water, even after I've exhaled.  Does that mean I can breathe?  

[JBJ 3684]

32 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

Yeah, that don't make no sense.  A person can be in that position with both toes off the ground and still shift most of their weight to one knee or the other.  Hell, you can put almost no weight on one of the knees.  

The engineer in me was cringing during that part of the testimony.

[GopherRock 1772]

Defense now crossing the pulmonologist.

[Poe It Up 126]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

Seriously, my distrust of the police aside, how did the whole "If you can talk, you can breathe" mantra get started?  Was it that ventriloquist dummy at the police's benevolent's talent show that one year?  

I can talk under water, even after I've exhaled.  Does that mean I can breathe?  

You probably still have some air in your lungs because you need air to vibrate your vocal chords. 

[Jkwellborn 6882]

Seriously, my distrust of the police aside, how did the whole "If you can talk, you can breathe" mantra get started?  Was it that ventriloquist dummy at the police's benevolent's talent show that one year?  
I can talk under water, even after I've exhaled.  Does that mean I can breathe?  

You’re joking right? Have you ever sat through a first aid class? A lot of them tell you that a person isn’t choking if they can talk. It most likely stems from that.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

This expert was a very, very good witness for the state. Defense barely laid a glove on him.

[Guest Lobo]

2 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

You’re joking right? Have you ever sat through a first aid class? A lot of them tell you that a person isn’t choking if they can talk. It most likely stems from that.

Maybe they do.  I've been certified and re-certified a number of times and it's never come up in my training from work at DIA to lifeguard to having babies.  The doctor today on the stand says he has no idea where this notion of "If you can talk, you can breathe" came from and that it's a huge fucking problem in first responder training.  

Shit, I re-upped mine last time when we had our second baby to get the refresher on the infant part of CPR.  As you probably guessed the "If they can talk, they can breathe" mantra didn't come up at that course...because you know...babies can't talk.  I'm guessing if he's acquitted, the upper-Midwest chain of Derek Chauvin "Infant CPR" training centers won't take off as business model.  "If the infant is crying, it can still breathe and is not in duress...even though we know strained crying is how they express duress."  

[TwiceHorn 31688]

The other thing I guess is that ability to converse/talk is a rough measure of cardiopulmonary involvement in exercise.

If you can carry on a conversation, the involvement is minimal.

If you can talk some, it's medium.

If you can barely talk at all, it's high.

[JBJ 3684]

Babies can't cry when they can't breathe.  It's why they train you to look where a child put their hands if you think they are choking.

[Jkwellborn 6882]

Maybe they do.  I've been certified and re-certified a number of times and it's never come up in my training from work at DIA to lifeguard to having babies.  The doctor today on the stand says he has no idea where this notion of "If you can talk, you can breathe" came from and that it's a huge fucking problem in first responder training.  
Shit, I re-upped mine last time when we had our second baby to get the refresher on the infant part of CPR.  As you probably guessed the "If they can talk, they can breathe" mantra didn't come up at that course...because you know...babies can't talk.  I'm guessing if he's acquitted, the upper-Midwest chain of Derek Chauvin "Infant CPR" training centers won't take off as business model.  "If the infant is crying, it can still breathe and is not in duress...even though we know strained crying is how they express duress."  

Do you go out of your way to be a dumb ass all the time or just here?