The Trial of Derek Chauvin

[BradInATX 9208]

13 minutes ago, sidis said:

now there's that capriciously ill-tempered brad we've all come to love...

you are petulantly lashing out, brad...it betrays your emotive frustration.  for example, when you ask a simple question of whether or not i have ever been overseas and i respond with a one sentence response confirming what you asked without commentary...it is rather telling that you then mischaracterize my response as "a multiple paragraph self-fellating* homage to my own world travels" when it that is so demonstrably false.  

*try as i may.

also, mischaracterizing a broader, social - almost anthropological point - that i was making regarding the axiomatic nature of power abuse in human nature as a "passive-permissive part of the problem" that "stands in the way of those who would like people of all colors to live in a world they aren't terrified of the people they pay to protect them" with absolutely no knowledge of my "IRL" efforts to be stem corruption from political and law enforcement authority is not just presumptuous, but is silly and childish.

to your substantive points, if we want to talk about reductionist bullshit, let's talk about a cherry-picking chart like the one you believe my contention that police are corrupt in other countries.  i can't imagine if there may be more to that than such a simple summary.  you use a chart that draws a contrast between the united states, the most armed civilian population in the world with a gun ownership rate of 120.5 per 100 people in the country and violent crime statistics higher than any other "wealthy nation" in the world, to a bunch of homogenous nations with populations smaller than the city of houston and severely more egalitarian economic outcomes (the real, underlying driver of the numbers by the way) to make your point?  do you think it is incidental that the second highest gun-owning population on that chart (canada with 34 per 100 compared to 120.5 per 100 in the u.s.) is the second highest on your police killings chart at almost the precise fraction of said ownership?  similarly, the united states averages 9,960 gun homicides a year.  the next two highest from that list are canada and germany with 173 and 158.  feels coincidental to me.  let's flesh it out...

gun homicides per year - united states: 9,960; canada: 173; germany: 158; the netherlands: 55; england & wales: 41; australia: 30; japan: 11; norway: 2; iceland: 0.  so, you have 470 gun-related homicides per year in all of the non-u.s. list of countries up there combined.  all of those countries combined make up a little less than two weeks of civilian gun violence in the united states.  but i suspect there are no inferences to be made from that vis-a-vis your chart and police interaction with the citizenry.  like i said, seems coincidental.  our problems are far deeper (largely economic, as well as our tired fascination with firearms) and the fact that police corruption and abuse of authority manifests itself in a different way in tiny, homogenous and egalitarian countries given those factors, does not undermine my point. 

finally, the notion that once the boomers all die off that we will live in some post-racial utopia in which awful people stop being awful further betrays an ignorance of history.  you think the youth of the 60's didn't feel that way about jim crow generations?  that cycle goes back to the beginning of time in this, and most every other heterogenous nation state.  i have some bad statistics for you that i know you have seen.  you should go through these poll results and observe the outcomes for the 18-34 and millennial age groups across all tables relative to other groups.  specifically in tablepol1, tablepol8_7, and tablepol8_9.  

https://assets.morningconsult.com/wp-uploads/2021/02/16103155/210259_crosstabs_POLITICO_RVs_v1.pdf

you don't have to join me on the ledge but you also don't dictate facts regarding human nature.

 

There is no chance I'm going to read all this. Your shit is cringe enough one or two paragraphs of fedora-wearing mental masturbation at a time.

Edited March 12, 2021 by BradInATX

[sidis 9821]

5 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

There is no chance I'm going to read this.

that's probably best for insulating your perspective.  at least your attempted veiling of the tapout here in humor was ever so slightly less pathetic than the one you gave johnny sack and his weak shit less than a page ago.

Edited March 12, 2021 by sidis

[SquishMitten 10403]

Any reason why the camera is on the state seal rather than the judge/attorneys speaking like yesterday? Kind of annoying not being able to see who is doing the questioning

[TexasHooch 5122]

I thought that's just the default shot when they're on recess. 

 

[SquishMitten 10403]

That's how it was the last few days. But they're doing questioning now and it's still on the seal. 

[BradInATX 9208]

2 minutes ago, sidis said:

that's probably best for insulating your perspective.  at least your attempted veiling of the tapout here in humor was ever so slightly less pathetic than the one you gave johnny sack and his weak shit less than a page ago.

Naw, today I'm just not interested in engaging with neckbeards who shove as many scrabble words as possible into their sentences to make themselves feel smart. 

Don't be that guy. Nobody likes that guy.

[GopherRock 1765]

3 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

That's how it was the last few days. But they're doing questioning now and it's still on the seal. 

Local news Twitter is saying it's because she once ran into AG Keith Ellison doing advocacy work. Audio was cut earlier due to defense asking sensitive personal questions, and camera operator is being very careful.

[GopherRock 1765]

BREAKING: Minneapolis City Council approves $27 million settlement in civil case against city. Presser with attorneys at 1.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

Again, we probably agree on more than we disagree. If we actually want to affect change,  we need to start from common ground instead of focussing on the stuff we disagree about. So, if you want things to only get worse, keep on keeping on. If you want things to get better, let's find things we pretty much all agree need to be fixed and fix them. 

[Parliament 14227]

13 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

BREAKING: Minneapolis City Council approves $27 million settlement in civil case against city. Presser with attorneys at 1.

That'll change the city's approach to policing as much as anything.  Hit them where they actually pay attention.

[GringoSalado 1651]

3 hours ago, sidis said:

to your substantive points,

lol

[XYZ 2154]

2 hours ago, Parliament said:

That'll change the city's approach to policing as much as anything.  Hit them where they actually pay attention.

Nah, bro, they increase taxes and keep on trucking.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21867]

2 hours ago, Parliament said:

That'll change the city's approach to policing as much as anything.  Hit them where they actually pay attention.

It's not they'll be paying with their own money

[Nice Guy Eddie 13507]

It won't happen but the $27m should come out of the police officers' pension fund.  See how they all feel about protecting bad cops when it reduces their retirement money.

[Brothahorn 10087]

3 hours ago, Parliament said:

That'll change the city's approach to policing as much as anything.  Hit them where they actually pay attention.

Did it change Chicago, LA, NYC or dozens of other places? It should make the politicians more accountable for their cops. But that's not how it works.

[Doc Reeves 6434]

21 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

It won't happen but the $27m should come out of the police officers' pension fund.  See how they all feel about protecting bad cops when it reduces their retirement money.

The entire union apparatus is set up to keep cops from accountability regardless of the circumstances. The only way to fix policing is to hold cops who commit crimes criminally responsible and the entire justice system is set up on the premise that cops don’t commit crimes. 

[Cajun 11705]

4 hours ago, sidis said:

that's probably best for insulating your perspective.  at least your attempted veiling of the tapout here in humor was ever so slightly less pathetic than the one you gave johnny sack and his weak shit less than a page ago.

Hammer, meet nail.

Dude is nothing but a big mouthed, coward, poo flinger.

[MirrOlure 14752]

BREAKING: Minneapolis City Council approves $27 million settlement in civil case against city. Presser with attorneys at 1.

Probably the only settlement negotiations in history where the paying party negotiated upwards

[Brisketexan 105041]

Although "kill" is the ultimate expression of police brutality, it is not the only one.
There are probably some uniquely American factors (guns, drugs, carceral culture) that make killings a more common form of police brutality here.
But that doesn't make the broader issue of law enforcement abuse of authority a uniquely American problem.

This. Police murders of minorities are not the problem. Rather, they are the most outrageous, bloody example of the problem. It is beyond question that racism is deeply embedded in American law enforcement culture. In many jurisdictions, formal law enforcement structures were created for the sole purpose of enforcing the Black Codes and similar bullshit. The disparate treatment of minorities by law enforcement ranges from the mundane (cop car gonna slowly drive by black kids on bikes, checking them out for “suspicious activity,” when the same cop doesn’t even glance at white kids on their bikes) to the horrific....flat out murder of minorities. Yes, cops can be and are dicks to everyone....but there can’t be any honest debate of the fact that their bullshit falls on minorities at a much higher rate.

We have murder trials of cops that matter on a much larger scale than the individual crime because we can’t prosecute cops for hassling black kids on their bikes over and over and over. But the same mentality leads to both. And that mentality is what is being put on trial in Minneapolis.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

51 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This. Police murders of minorities are not the problem. Rather, they are the most outrageous, bloody example of the problem. It is beyond question that racism is deeply embedded in American law enforcement culture. In many jurisdictions, formal law enforcement structures were created for the sole purpose of enforcing the Black Codes and similar bullshit. The disparate treatment of minorities by law enforcement ranges from the mundane (cop car gonna slowly drive by black kids on bikes, checking them out for “suspicious activity,” when the same cop doesn’t even glance at white kids on their bikes) to the horrific....flat out murder of minorities. Yes, cops can be and are dicks to everyone....but there can’t be any honest debate of the fact that their bullshit falls on minorities at a much higher rate.

We have murder trials of cops that matter on a much larger scale than the individual crime because we can’t prosecute cops for hassling black kids on their bikes over and over and over. But the same mentality leads to both. And that mentality is what is being put on trial in Minneapolis.

If racism drives the disproportionate shootings against blacks, then how do you explain that studies show white officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers?

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877

 

 

 

[Brisketexan 105041]

If racism drives the disproportionate shootings against blacks, then how do you explain that studies show white officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers?
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877
 
 
 

Because the culture of the blue supplants all else.

[fattyflattie 4639]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because the culture of the blue supplants all else.

I don’t believe that. If that’s the case, then it’s not a race issue.  

[Brisketexan 105041]

I don’t believe that. If that’s the case, then it’s not a race issue.  

Believe it. Listen to cops talk when they think they’re in a safe place.

And of you don’t think that people of race X can’t join an institution that’s racist against race X and then act consistently....you need to read some history books.

They’ve joined a “brotherhood.” It supplants literally everything else I think their lives.

[immortal13 4059]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Believe it. Listen to cops talk when they think they’re in a safe place.

And of you don’t think that people of race X can’t join an institution that’s racist against race X and then act consistently....you need to read some history books.

They’ve joined a “brotherhood.” It supplants literally everything else I think their lives.

I used to have a neighbor that was a former local sheriff dept dumbass/asshole, and I remember him telling me that he was racist and that being a police officer made him a racist. So glad I don't have neighbors anymore.

[BradInATX 9208]

Minorities can be racist too.

[JimmyJames 12271]

On 3/13/2021 at 1:18 PM, Johnny Sack said:

If racism drives the disproportionate shootings against blacks, then how do you explain that studies show white officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers?

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877

 

 

 

Because there are black and white cops?

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

Minorities can be racist too.

Not true. Whenever I get referred a potential case with a black plaintiff in a Hispanic venue I totally ignore the fact that racism might be a factor in the case. Same reason if I got a gay plaintiff in midland county I don’t worry about that either.

[TwiceHorn 31434]

I have seen a number of little "black and blue" interviews, where black cops find themselves in a real dilemma.

It illustrates how a particular form of racism permeates police forces.  Yes, there are flat-out Klan-types among white cops, but even those that aren't overtly racist in other contexts find themselves assuming the worst about black suspects.  They assume the worst about a number of stereotypes and act accordingly.  But black suspects are the easiest to stereotype.

[GopherRock 1765]

Voir dire resumed this morning. Two more jurors were seated before lunch. The next juror questioned after lunch provided this exchange:

 

[NWBuck 8551]

21 hours ago, BradInATX said:

Minorities can be racist too.

 

[Cajun 11705]

20 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Because there are black and white cops?

Where do you think, “Oh shit, I’ve got a black & white behind me!” came from?

Duh!

[Foosters 17820]

On 3/9/2021 at 12:15 PM, Foosters said:

I always find it a bit humorous when the palatable jurors for each side get reversed. Typically, prosecutors are trying to stack the box with white folks and kick folks of color. Depending on the case, they may want more women or men, but its always white folks. Defense attorneys are usually trying to kick white folks and keep young people of color. Of course, both sides do it in a way that it appears, at least in the record, as race neutral. Typically, that above 30 year old white chemist is the perfect juror for the prosecution. Now, not so much.

 

ahem

 

[TwiceHorn 31434]

It's always struck me as a little bit off that jurors can rehabilitate themselves from demonstrated bias by stating that they can put aside their biases and render a fair verdict.

It has always seemed to me that a bias is something you can't easily put aside.  Then again, I'm not sure voir dire is all that effective at revealing that type of bias.  It reveals the "articulated" or "conscious" bias rather than the deep-seated, unconscious bias.

[Captainant 27619]

18 minutes ago, Foosters said:

ahem

 

Now why on earth would cops only want white people sitting on their juries?? The Batson rule and supreme court case on its face only applies to prosecutions, but in this case the defense IS the police and by proxy, the state.

Very interesting turn of events, and completely unsurprising that the jury just magically happened to be all white

[TexasHooch 5122]

Luckily this trial won't have the same problem.  Seems to be pretty diverse.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/10/us/derek-chauvin-trial-jurors/index.html

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Now why on earth would cops only want white people sitting on their juries?? The Batson rule and supreme court case on its face only applies to prosecutions, but in this case the defense IS the police and by proxy, the state.

Very interesting turn of events, and completely unsurprising that the jury just magically happened to be all white

The Batson rule applies to both the state and defense.

[Brisketexan 105041]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's always struck me as a little bit off that jurors can rehabilitate themselves from demonstrated bias by stating that they can put aside their biases and render a fair verdict.

It has always seemed to me that a bias is something you can't easily put aside.  Then again, I'm not sure voir dire is all that effective at revealing that type of bias.  It reveals the "articulated" or "conscious" bias rather than the deep-seated, unconscious bias.

Yeah.....that always and continues to vex me.  Once you admit "Oh, I hate Brisketexan, always have, and would smile if I knew he was rotting in prison," you can't rehabilitate yourself with "but I'd give him a fair shake at trial."  You can't rehabilitate demonstrated bias.  But as you note, that sort of direct, articulated bias rarely comes up.  Now, a good voir dire can tease it out of a juror -- often one who wants to say something to get himself struck -- but it doesn't always work, as people don't want to admit that they have biased thinking because they rightfully see that as something that would be criticized.

[GopherRock 1765]

This jury will be more diverse than that.

However, the settlement is causing problems in voir dire. No one has been seated yesterday or today. This morning, the judge requestioned the 9 seated jurors about if and how the announcement may affect their ability to be impartial. He sent off two, and I don't remember how that changes the makeup of the jury.

[Al_4_ISU 12447]

The issue of law enforcement being untouchable and unaccountable definitely supersedes race.  There are scores of white people who are unfairly targeted, and fucked with by cops on a daily basis.  There are cases of cops killing white people on camera without justification and walking (AZ hotel room case comes to mind).

It's just that minorities suffer it on a disproportionate basis.

[Brisketexan 105041]

22 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

The issue of law enforcement being untouchable and unaccountable definitely supersedes race.  There are scores of white people who are unfairly targeted, and fucked with by cops on a daily basis.  There are cases of cops killing white people on camera without justification and walking (AZ hotel room case comes to mind).

It's just that minorities suffer it on a disproportionate basis.

This, and it's not much more complicated than that.  Cops have an abusive/God/above the law problem.....that problem is also regularly topped with a thick layer of racism.  So, generic person gets shitty treatment.  Minority person gets more frequent shitty treatment, and shittier treatment when it happens.

White folks get it bad.

Black folks get it worse.

The fact that white folks also get it bad doesn't change the fact that black folks get a different and worse level of treatment, in general.  How these pretty obvious things are still a subject of debate really boggles my mind.  It's as plain as day.

[El Diablo 4232]

3 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

The issue of law enforcement being untouchable and unaccountable definitely supersedes race.  There are scores of white people who are unfairly targeted, and fucked with by cops on a daily basis.  There are cases of cops killing white people on camera without justification and walking (AZ hotel room case comes to mind).

It's just that minorities suffer it on a disproportionate basis.

Yes, and to some extent that culture attracts a certain breed of individual. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

This, and it's not much more complicated than that.  Cops have an abusive/God/above the law problem.....that problem is also regularly topped with a thick layer of racism.  So, generic person gets shitty treatment.  Minority person gets more frequent shitty treatment, and shittier treatment when it happens.

White folks get it bad.

Black folks get it worse.

The fact that white folks also get it bad doesn't change the fact that black folks get a different and worse level of treatment, in general.  How these pretty obvious things are still a subject of debate really boggles my mind.  It's as plain as day.

And when a white piece of crap with a long history of being a piece of crap resists arrests and gets killed for it, not one damn person outside of maybe his family gives a single fuck about it.  There are no $27 million settlements.  No murals.  No names on courts or on the back of jerseys.  No media coverage. No one cares.  And never has once in our history.  And that happens more often in our country than Floyd.

It is befuddling that anyone would paint a mural of that waste of sperm.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Johnny Sack

[Brisketexan 105041]

13 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

And when a white piece of crap with a long history of being a piece of crap resists arrests and gets killed for it, not one damn person outside of maybe his family gives a single fuck about it.  There are no $27 million settlements.  No murals.  No names on courts or on the back of jerseys.  No media coverage. No one cares.  And never has once in our history.  And that happens more often in our country than Floyd.

It is befuddling that anyone would paint a mural of that waste of sperm.

No......we just have broad and uniform demands to change the way we police.  See the fact that dollar-wise, the biggest element of proposed reform of PDs is to have them stop being mental health interventionists, and instead have more capable and better-equipped persons handle those calls.  Mental health calls resulting in death....a relatively race-neutral issue (although, again, in any given case of crappy police conduct, they are more inclined to be crappy, and be crappier, to a minority) that is one of the biggest elements of the police reform movement.

A great deal of the approaches to law enforcement reform are facially race-neutral, although admittedly, the police conduct at issue (like most police conduct) falls more heavily on minorities (e.g., end the war on drugs, divert to mental health officials, etc.).

So, the fact remains.  Generic citizens get it bad (see Tony Timpa, and that poor fucker in AZ).  Minority citizens get it worse, both in volume and degree.  So, we call attention to that disparity as well.  And we should.  And I will definitely disagree with you -- slowly choke a white man to death, on video, and there will be a shitstorm over that, too.  And ultimately, the reason that ANY person's past history is irrelevant to whether he is murdered by cops is because in ZERO jurisdictions in the US are the police authorized to summarily execute someone for their crimes - past or present.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Brisketexan

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

No......we just have broad and uniform demands to change the way we police.  See the fact that dollar-wise, the biggest element of proposed reform of PDs is to have them stop being mental health interventionists, and instead have more capable and better-equipped persons handle those calls.  Mental health calls resulting in death....a relatively race-neutral issue (although, again, in any given case of crappy police conduct, they are more inclined to be crappy, and be crappier, to a minority) that is one of the biggest elements of the police reform movement.

A great deal of the approaches to law enforcement reform are facially race-neutral, although admittedly, the police conduct at issue (like most police conduct) falls more heavily on minorities (e.g., end the war on drugs, divert to mental health officials, etc.).

So, the fact remains.  Generic citizens get it bad (see Tony Timpa, and that poor fucker in AZ).  Minority citizens get it worse, both in volume and degree.  So, we call attention to that disparity as well.  And we should.  And I will definitely disagree with you -- slowly choke a white man to death, on video, and there will be a shitstorm over that, too.  And ultimately, the reason that ANY person's past history is irrelevant to whether he is murdered by cops is because in ZERO jurisdictions in the US are the police authorized to summarily execute someone for their crimes - past or present.

Find me one white Jacob Blake shithead situation where anyone gave any kind of fuck -- where cities burned over a white guy getting shot after resisting arrest and reaching into a vehicle all on camera?  Or a dickhead like Michael Brown who gets shot assaulting and going for the gun of a cop. Or that fuck stick who resisted arrest and was shot after discharging a taser at a cop?

Zero fucks are given when a white guy, Hispanic or asian engaging in that kind of fucking assclownery gets shot.

The social demand for unjustified police shootings of black males far outstrips the supply.

But we have a huge portion of this country that legitimately believes cops are murdering thousands of black males a year.  When the number is single digits.

 

[Jkwellborn 6686]

I read an article yesterday that said they delayed the trial by a day to see if they could get 3rd degree murder charges listed as an alternative to 2nd degree.   They would still go for 2nd degree murder, but some pundits felt that if the 3rd degree option was on the table the jurors might consider that instead.
 
its all bullshit and it makes me really worried this guy is going to somehow end up not being convicted of murder... and the holy shit-dom that would come from that is terrifying.

He’s gonna walk. People will lose their minds and it will make the LA Riots pale. Social media will drive a bunch of it. People will get pissed off and someone will wind up fucking around and finding out.

[George 491]

Yeah. This has mistrial written all over it. That shit is going to get ugly. 
 

feds might come in for round 2 though if the state can’t convict him. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I don’t think he walks. Guilty is most likely.  Mistrial is second most likely.  Acquittal is third most likely. And by far the least likely.  

[High Plains Drifter 11024]

On 3/12/2021 at 1:03 PM, Parliament said:

That'll change the city's approach to policing as much as anything.  Hit them where they actually pay attention.

 

pay it out of the cops' retirement fund. That'll get their attention.

Edited March 22, 2021 by High Plains Drifter
dammit eddie

[GopherRock 1765]

20 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

I don’t think he walks. Guilty is most likely.  Mistrial is second most likely.  Acquittal is third most likely. And by far the least likely.  

I don't think he completely walks, either. He's facing too many charges to skip on all of them. Recall there is a charge of 2nd degree manslaughter in addition to murder 3 and murder 2. 

Voir dire is almost done. They're looking for 2 more seated jurors. 

[GopherRock 1765]

Opening arguments are under way now.  

All the MSP media are showing this live, so there are a lot of links out there for a stream.