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Beth Moore Leaves Southern Baptist Convention

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956 Worldwide

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This is kind of an earthquake in what it still America’s largest non-Catholic denomination as far as I know.  Beth Moore is a hugely influential author and speaker who cannot, by any stretch, be called a theological liberal. She’s about as straitlaced as they come in that front, even making sure to toe the “I am a teacher not a preacher” line. She can’t be said to be a political liberal either, her politics are pretty much Billy Graham 2.0. If you know a white Christian lady with crosses on her wall, then that lady likely watches Beth Moore videos and attends Beth Moore curriculum Bible studies. 
 

Anyway, she is splitting over rampant Trumpism in the SBC as well as an ongoing war with SBC leadership over their handling of sexual assault and sexual abuse inside churches. As you might imagine, she’s on the side that a Trump supporter would be against. 
 

Will be interesting to watch how SBC women react.  The SBC has really been shoring up it’s right flank even in the post-Trump era, it seems to be part of his overall capture of various right-leaning institutions. 
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2021/03/09/beth-moore-lifeway-southern-baptist-split/

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Mole

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She’s kind of a big deal. She rightly called Trumpism idolatry recently. The evangelical Trumpers that I know already somewhat rejected her over it and found themselves make defenses of Christian nationalism in the process.

The SBC seems to be one step forward, two steps back. In the past several years they’ve made a few real positive steps in redeeming their explicitly racist founding but then they keep stepping in it over race and other issues. For example, without really consulting the faculty, the seminary presidents jointly rejected critical race theory as any kind of useful framework.

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956 Worldwide

956 Worldwide 34443

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4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

She'll be cast out as an apostate libtard who was corrupted by the evil of modern Soros society.  And she won't be given a second thought.

Got any other tough questions for us?

We will see. I guess I am more interested to see the line of attack and whether there is explicit encouragement to trash her books.  There isn’t a theological line of argument, while some big pastors don’t mind explicitly casting her out for politics only, I don’t know how far that will go. And the sexual assault angle is one to watch.

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Brisketexan

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7 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 There isn’t a theological line of argument, while some big pastors don’t mind explicitly casting her out for politics only, I don’t know how far that will go.

In the SBC, and most conservative "christian" sects in the US, politics has entirely subsumed theology.  They don't even try to hide it anymore.  Disagree with their politics, and you are a heretic.  They will cast her out, and it won't take them a split second to do it completely and totally.

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UpperWestside

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23 minutes ago, Native Horn said:

Never heard of her, but that sounds great.  

 

I did not know who this woman was either, but it’s good she was able to take a stand against the tenets that have been put forth by the Death Cult that she cannot abide by. Perhaps in certain ways it can be construed as being easier for her to do this because she is well off so taking a principled stand is not as hard for her. In her sphere of influence she can hopefully have a positive effect on at least a fraction of the people who like the work she done prior to this. Even just bringing a small segment of people out of the Death Cult and back to the land of the living so to speak is far more preferable to none at all.

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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I really wonder why there already hasn't been something like a New Southern Baptist denomination, given how often they split over shit far more trivial than Trumpism.

Somebody on the old site nailed when they said they were expecting to see the creation of Second Baylor University over Briles's rape-a-palooza. Said Second Baylor would be much smaller than First, of course. 

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2 hours ago, Mole said:

She’s kind of a big deal. She rightly called Trumpism idolatry recently. The evangelical Trumpers that I know already somewhat rejected her over it and found themselves make defenses of Christian nationalism in the process.

She is a Very Big Deal (and Very Attractive).  She is extremely popular among my wife and a bunch of her church friends (Baptist church), and I remember her comment coming up in a Sunday school session back in December or January, where Moore called out the worship of Trumpism.  It briefly split the Sunday school group (mostly women v men, or women vs men + wives that pretended to go along with their husbands).

It was entertaining, as one of the women said they were worshipping a man who couldn't stop cheating on his wives and couldn't stop lying, and one of the men responded about how it's better they follow him instead of some liberal, and another of the women responded with something about "would Jesus be happy with Donald Trump's immorality?" etc.

Beth Moore has a very devoted base.

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MaybeACoordinator

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19 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

She is a Very Big Deal (and Very Attractive).  She is extremely popular among my wife and a bunch of her church friends (Baptist church), and I remember her comment coming up in a Sunday school session back in December or January, where Moore called out the worship of Trumpism.  It briefly split the Sunday school group (mostly women v men, or women vs men + wives that pretended to go along with their husbands).

It was entertaining, as one of the women said they were worshipping a man who couldn't stop cheating on his wives and couldn't stop lying, and one of the men responded about how it's better they follow him instead of some liberal, and another of the women responded with something about "would Jesus be happy with Donald Trump's immorality?" etc.

Beth Moore has a very devoted base.

Southern Baptist women's nookie strike in the cards? 

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1 hour ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I really wonder why there already hasn't been something like a New Southern Baptist denomination, given how often they split over shit far more trivial than Trumpism.

I think the "serious" evangelicals, the ones that actually look down upon Trump's immorality (even if they are a small group), were hoping he'd just go away, similar to how some Republican politicians were hoping he'd go away, because they didn't want to confront the Trumpers.

I think it would take somebody of Beth Moore's status to start up a new SB convention/whatever, but I don't think she can do it alone, because, based on my experience with the Baptists, there needs to be another one or two of her level, that are men, to pull it off.   I could be wrong, and my experience is with one large SB church here in Austin, but the Trumpers were rampant, along with the sexism/double standard of being fine with Trump's past.  Shit, I confronted a couple with the fact that Trump openly didn't believe he needed to ask for forgiveness, which was kind of a big deal, and it was just a "let's just talk about something else."

Somebody at a larger level, Beth Moore is a good start, needs to get their shit together - religious attendance and participation has been declining for decades, the pandemic has done it no favors (since so many went online, and then many of those decided that they weren't really missing out much and just stopped).  I watched my wife's Sunday school basically split in half between those willing to continue on Zoom, and a group that either decided they didn't really need church, or were Trumpies/Qanon types that didn't believe covid was an issue, didn't believe in masks, etc. and were angry at the church, and they went off to a smaller one that was still doing it's thing in-person.

The Atlantic has an article touching on a bit of it - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/america-politics-religion/618072/

 

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atomheartbevo

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4 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Southern Baptist women's nookie strike in the cards? 

I would like to see some high-profile Baptist leaders try and attack Moore.  She's got a strong following, she's very articulate, and her responses will send out some shockwaves among certain groups.

I know some in the SBC leadership are aware of declining participation, and were trying to get their shit together and reach out and bring in minorities and churches that had split off in the past for one reason or another, but they could still be tone deaf as fuck when it came to women's issues, and people like Beth Moore quietly built their little empires in the shadows, albeit Moore's is larger than most.

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Brisketexan

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1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

I would like to see some high-profile Baptist leaders try and attack Moore.  She's got a strong following, she's very articulate, and her responses will send out some shockwaves among certain groups.

I know some in the SBC leadership are aware of declining participation, and were trying to get their shit together and reach out and bring in minorities and churches that had split off in the past for one reason or another, but they could still be tone deaf as fuck when it came to women's issues, and people like Beth Moore quietly built their little empires in the shadows, albeit Moore's is larger than most.

The SBC and those like them are fully committed to their path: white christian nationalism, under the banner of Trump.  That's it. There is no other theology or philosophy left.  

This won't cause them to deviate from that path.  Nothing will.

It's not that fundagelicals aren't destroying themselves -- they are.  The problem is that they're gonna take the rest of us with them.

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Nivek

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14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The SBC and those like them are fully committed to their path: white christian nationalism, under the banner of Trump.  That's it. There is no other theology or philosophy left.  

For some reason, this seems more correct.

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Brisketexan

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4 minutes ago, Nivek said:

For some reason, this seems more correct.

Oh, I mean to put "Christian" in quotes, because the fundagelical version of "Christianity" has functionally nothing to do with Christ, the gospels, or anything of that sort.  "Christianity" is a label they wield as a defensive weapon -- how DARE you criticize anything they do, they are doing it in the name of CHRIST!  WHY DO YOU HATE CHRIST?  RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION!!!!

Edited by Brisketexan
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atomheartbevo

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15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The SBC and those like them are fully committed to their path: white christian nationalism, under the banner of Trump.  That's it. There is no other theology or philosophy left.  

This won't cause them to deviate from that path.  Nothing will.

You are trying to take an issue and make it a binary/black & white issue, when there's actually a lot of shades of gray involved.

There are those in the SBC who were full-on worshipping Trump, nobody is saying otherwise, but there's a shitload of the SBC who are also watching the declining numbers, both in individuals who call themselves Southern Baptists, and in churches that are members of the SBC, and they are also realizing that Trump worship is hurting them.  They've been watching the African-American congregations bailing on the SBC, they've been watching the lack of youth engagement, and over the last year, they've been watching the pandemic hurt a lot of congregations financially as well as in numbers of active members.

Just last month, the SBC President publicly said “We are not, at our core, a political activism group....We love our country, but God has not called us to save America — he’s called us to build the church and spread the gospel and that is our primary mission” and “If we are going to be gospel above all people, it means that we will be a church that engages all of the peoples in America, not just one kind,....And that’s hard. Bringing together people of different backgrounds and cultures and ethnicities into the church creates challenges. Anybody that says it’s not hasn’t actually done it.”

He's been called a liberal by others within the SBC because of that, and because he wasn't defending Trump enough - think about that - President of the SBC being called a liberal for saying they need to focus on Jesus instead of politics, that they need to be reaching out to everybody, and not just one kind of people.

Like I said, more than a few Southern Baptists are like Republican politicians - just hoping Trump will fade away, along with his followers, but by remaining silent, in some ways they encouraged the Trumpers.

SBC is in a world of shit right now.  Just as the pandemic saw the end of plenty of movie theaters, it's happening with a lot of churches.  A lot of people were all of the sudden not able to go to church, and being at home, found other things to do.  Lot harder to get donations when people are Zooming in (if at all) and not feeling much of a connection to church.

They are at the proverbial crossroads, and plenty of them, even the hardcore Trumpers, know they better figure out a course correction really fucking quick, because Donald Trump ain't bringing in new members to the SBC.

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Brisketexan

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You are trying to take an issue and make it a binary/black & white issue, when there's actually a lot of shades of gray involved.
There are those in the SBC who were full-on worshipping Trump, nobody is saying otherwise, but there's a shitload of the SBC who are also watching the declining numbers, both in individuals who call themselves Southern Baptists, and in churches that are members of the SBC, and they are also realizing that Trump worship is hurting them.  They've been watching the African-American congregations bailing on the SBC, they've been watching the lack of youth engagement, and over the last year, they've been watching the pandemic hurt a lot of congregations financially as well as in numbers of active members.
Just last month, the SBC President publicly said “We are not, at our core, a political activism group....We love our country, but God has not called us to save America — he’s called us to build the church and spread the gospel and that is our primary mission” and “If we are going to be gospel above all people, it means that we will be a church that engages all of the peoples in America, not just one kind,....And that’s hard. Bringing together people of different backgrounds and cultures and ethnicities into the church creates challenges. Anybody that says it’s not hasn’t actually done it.”
He's been called a liberal by others within the SBC because of that, and because he wasn't defending Trump enough - think about that - President of the SBC being called a liberal for saying they need to focus on Jesus instead of politics, that they need to be reaching out to everybody, and not just one kind of people.
Like I said, more than a few Southern Baptists are like Republican politicians - just hoping Trump will fade away, along with his followers, but by remaining silent, in some ways they encouraged the Trumpers.
SBC is in a world of shit right now.  Just as the pandemic saw the end of plenty of movie theaters, it's happening with a lot of churches.  A lot of people were all of the sudden not able to go to church, and being at home, found other things to do.  Lot harder to get donations when people are Zooming in (if at all) and not feeling much of a connection to church.
They are at the proverbial crossroads, and plenty of them, even the hardcore Trumpers, know they better figure out a course correction really fucking quick, because Donald Trump ain't bringing in new members to the SBC.

The SBC president is a libtard, and is not long for his role.

I’ve seen what these denominations have done. There is no going back for them. Many members realize that the path is self destructive, I agree. But the path will not change. Because the denomination doesn’t worship Christ. It worships a man, and his power. Words don’t matter. That’s the reality.

It’s killing multiple denominations, including more liberal ones....who are seeing their wealthier members abandon them because the denomination refuses to compromise the gospel to worship at the Fox News altar.

Christianity as a whole in the US is killing itself. And as my pastor wife likes to say “if American Christianity can be killed that easily, maybe it needs to die.” After all, resurrection is a foundation of genuine Christian theology.
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RDCanecutter

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You show me somebody who knows all about what the Southern Baptist Convention says about x, y, and z, and I'll show you a guy who is one sailor suit away from choreographing a fantastic South Pacific rendition of "There ain't Nothin' like a Dame."

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conVINCEd

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20 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

You are trying to take an issue and make it a binary/black & white issue, when there's actually a lot of shades of gray involved.

There are those in the SBC who were full-on worshipping Trump, nobody is saying otherwise, but there's a shitload of the SBC who are also watching the declining numbers, both in individuals who call themselves Southern Baptists, and in churches that are members of the SBC, and they are also realizing that Trump worship is hurting them.  They've been watching the African-American congregations bailing on the SBC, they've been watching the lack of youth engagement, and over the last year, they've been watching the pandemic hurt a lot of congregations financially as well as in numbers of active members.

Just last month, the SBC President publicly said “We are not, at our core, a political activism group....We love our country, but God has not called us to save America — he’s called us to build the church and spread the gospel and that is our primary mission” and “If we are going to be gospel above all people, it means that we will be a church that engages all of the peoples in America, not just one kind,....And that’s hard. Bringing together people of different backgrounds and cultures and ethnicities into the church creates challenges. Anybody that says it’s not hasn’t actually done it.”

He's been called a liberal by others within the SBC because of that, and because he wasn't defending Trump enough - think about that - President of the SBC being called a liberal for saying they need to focus on Jesus instead of politics, that they need to be reaching out to everybody, and not just one kind of people.

Like I said, more than a few Southern Baptists are like Republican politicians - just hoping Trump will fade away, along with his followers, but by remaining silent, in some ways they encouraged the Trumpers.

SBC is in a world of shit right now.  Just as the pandemic saw the end of plenty of movie theaters, it's happening with a lot of churches.  A lot of people were all of the sudden not able to go to church, and being at home, found other things to do.  Lot harder to get donations when people are Zooming in (if at all) and not feeling much of a connection to church.

They are at the proverbial crossroads, and plenty of them, even the hardcore Trumpers, know they better figure out a course correction really fucking quick, because Donald Trump ain't bringing in new members to the SBC.

It would be nice if being decent human beings was the catalyst for change, instead it’s declining numbers.

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Aqua Buddha

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38 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Is this really true in small towns?  The one in Wimberley seems to have taken over the town, to disastrous consequences.

Give it 10 years and the people there now will be dead.  Something like 2/3 of SB churches didn’t baptize anyone in 2019.  They’re in a demographic death spiral.

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Beau Vine

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3 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Give it 10 years and the people there now will be dead.  Something like 2/3 of SB churches didn’t baptize anyone in 2019.  They’re in a demographic death spiral.

Just looking from afar (ie, Facebook), most of its growth seems to be coming from young families, fleeing the lawless places like Austin and San Marcos, where their children are required to attend school with colored children.

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'stache

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Meh, I have problems with organized religion as a whole. The overlap between asshole and Christianity is much broader than Trump in my opinion, he was just the inevitable result of theocratic nonsense that has been brewing for centuries, interpreting scripture however they want, while accusing dissenters of the same thing.

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conVINCEd

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2 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Just looking from afar (ie, Facebook), most of its growth seems to be coming from young families, fleeing the lawless places like Austin and San Marcos, where their children are required to attend school with colored children.

My younger cousins aren’t going anywhere, and they have sufficiently brain washed their kids that they won’t either.  Daddy was an insurance agent who preached part time.  They fled the metroplex for Aledo.  Apparently a lot of like-minded folks there.

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atomheartbevo

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57 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Just looking from afar (ie, Facebook), most of its growth seems to be coming from young families, fleeing the lawless places like Austin and San Marcos, where their children are required to attend school with colored children.

My wife's church had been bending over backwards to bring in young families, along with minorities - pre-pandemic, they were boosting their childcare offerings, they had a service in the same building as the other regular services, with a young pastor and a "rock" band instead of the normal large choir, they have services in Chinese, Korean, and Spanish, etc.

They knew the old farts were dying off, and younger folks weren't filling the pews to replace them quickly enough.  I can remember when there wasn't a parking spot to be had in the garage or the parking lot, and people would have to park down various side streets.  Over the last few pre-pandemic years, parking spots were not hard to find in either the garage or the lot.

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conVINCEd

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4 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

It is what it is - you could apply that to politicians, and replace "declining numbers" with "lobbyists" or "rich donors".

Which is why I haven’t stepped foot in a church for anything other than a wedding or funeral in 20 years.

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MaybeACoordinator

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1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Just looking from afar (ie, Facebook), most of its growth seems to be coming from young families, fleeing the lawless places like Austin and San Marcos, where their children are required to attend school with colored children.

Yeah, but that's hollowing out churches elsewhere. It's not like the bodysnatched the hippy spawn of Wimberley. 

Edited by MaybeACoordinator
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atomheartbevo

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

The SBC president is a libtard, and is not long for his role.

That's exactly how many view him, but many others also listen to their accountants and their deacons, and realize he's right.  And they also realize the younger generation is not buying a lot of the political bullshit.

Again, you may want to lock into a very binary view on how a lot of Southern Baptists view things, especially since your wife is from a "liberal" church that allows women to be leaders/pastors, but the SBC guy is not white hair from some podunk little town where he had some kind of come-to-Jesus moment.  He's young - only 47, he's running a megachurch, and he is keenly aware the SBC and Baptists in general are reaching an existential crisis of sorts.  

All it would take would be one or two "bad" sermons from him, and his megachurch goes under, and he knows it.  When he said those words, he knew he was squaring off with the old MAGA types that would rather see the SBC and Baptist churches disappear than budge one inch on Trump, but there's a shitload of folks running Baptist churches across the US who are similar to  him - they don't want their churches to disappear over the worship of Trump, and they are absolutely working on trying to get past the Cult of Trump and the Boomers while still keeping their churches going.  

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I’ve seen what these denominations have done. There is no going back for them. Many members realize that the path is self destructive, I agree. But the path will not change. Because the denomination doesn’t worship Christ. It worships a man, and his power. Words don’t matter. That’s the reality.

And I've seen it from the other side.   I've watched from the sidelines as my wife's Sunday school lost a chunk of their members over the covid stuff (and a few of them were laster on pushing qanon shit before we cut them out of the text chains, Zoom sessions, etc.).

Granted, this is a Southern Baptist church in the People's Republic of Austin, so it's always going to be liberal compared to a lot of other places, but knowing some of the deacons really well, and being friends with a few others in other leadership positions who are around our age, I see plenty of folks in leadership course-correcting as best they can.

I've heard them talking about how the Boomers can be generous with the offerings on Sunday, but it's the young families who are the future.

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Christianity as a whole in the US is killing itself. And as my pastor wife likes to say “if American Christianity can be killed that easily, maybe it needs to die.” After all, resurrection is a foundation of genuine Christian theology.

It will adapt.  It always has.  It adapted when it came over here from Europe.  I've been around Austin long enough to see various churches reinventing themselves when they need to.  With the Baptists, it's a lot harder, but don't think they aren't trying.

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cactusflinthead

cactusflinthead 27594

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I am going to read this more closely later. 

Hey @Brisketexan she might go call herself a Presbyterian. Free agent. 

I have been an outlaw Baptist for a while. It was a different escape route for me, but I understand where she's coming from.

Check this out.

https://religionnews.com/2021/03/09/bible-teacher-beth-moore-ends-partnership-with-lifeway-i-am-no-longer-a-southern-baptist/

I had to rip that link from them as they protect their tweets. 

@BaptistBlogger over in Twitterville

I got basketball to watch

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