Rewarding fiscal irresponsibility...

[Celery Man 20886]

1 minute ago, YChang said:

What can I say... I try to be way too nice sometimes. <shrug>

yeah sorry not trying to pick at you, i'm just done giving credit where credit isn't due with the people trying to destroy our country

[Sawbonz 27434]

5 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

There is plenty of reason to worry about the debt.  Back in the old days of capitalism, when the government borrowed 2 trillion dollars, they had to go out on the open market and sell treasury bonds.  This tended to make interest rates rise, and acted somewhat as a brake on excessive borrowing. Now that republicans and democrats have figured out how to skip this step by having the fed buy the bonds,  I don't see any brakes on spending.  This grand experiment can't end well. But it will be much harder on the poor and middle class, who won't have appreciating assets to counter balance rising prices. Wages will struggle to keep up. So far the rich are doing great in this environment. They will likely continue to do well as they can borrow at low rates and watch their assets increase in value.  If you set up an economic plan specifically to benefit the rich, you would be hard pressed to come up with anything better.  And yeah, Trump and the Republicans were horrible on the deficit. Now the democrats are in "Hold my beer" mode. Next up 2 trillion for infrastructure, then 2 trillion for the green new deal.

Can you link your posts criticizing Trump’s tax cuts and railing against his unprecedented deficit spending? I’ll hang up and listen

[jimmyjazz 45558]

Covid stimulus under Trump:  $4T, most of which didn't go where the pain was the worst #MAGAOK

Covid stimulus under Biden:  $1.9T, most of which is targeted directly at the little guy #OMGHEISOUTOFCONTROL

[Js1 85110]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Covid stimulus under Trump:  $4T, most of which didn't go where the pain was the worst #MAGAOK

Covid stimulus under Biden:  $1.9T, most of which is targeted directly at the little guy #OMGHEISOUTOFCONTROL

It’s not fair. Now how will I buy a Lamborghini with my PPP funds?!?!?

[Js1 85110]

I guess I don’t understand why all this spending is bad and... ohhhhhh I see now

 

[elfenix 34171]

"fiscal responsibility" being synonymous with austerity has to be the dumbest major policy lie republicans / conservatives tell.

Edited March 13, 2021 by elfenix

[YChang 3430]

I get the OP and others are extremely disingenuous and a bit selfish with their outlook in regards to the government and borrowing. But I think there's a nugget of truth/concern with Locke about how the way for the government to pay back the borrowing is from the Fed issuing bonds. 

My rudimentary economic knowledge is that... financial institutions world wide love buying US Bonds.  But the bond market isn't as robust as it has been recently cause the interest rate is so low now. What other tools are there (is it raise tax, cut spending... and that's it?) 

How legit is this concern? 

Edited March 13, 2021 by YChang

[GRHorn 105]

18 minutes ago, YChang said:

Makes sense. Admittedly my go-to source of left of center sources for podcasts, newspaper, etc... doesn’t seem to call out inflation as being that big a concern from economist or Fed chairs for several decades now. Is this more of an irrational fear versus lack of confidence in the tools the Fed has to control rising inflation?

Left of center typically implies high levels of trust in technocrats and central planners, so I’m not surprised that they don’t see it as that big of a concern. 
 

I think the more irrational position is not being concerned about the inflationary effects of debt monetization. And no, the Fed will not be able to control higher inflation when it happens. 
 

15 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I’m all for checking spending. There hasn’t been a republican proposal to cut spending in a meaningful way (meaning deep military cuts and reforming Medicare) in the past 20 years. So if we are going to go broke I’d rather spend the money on average citizens and not corporations and 100M- and billionaires 

 

This is truly one of the best both sides issues. The left isn’t looking to cut spending either. I’m fine with people getting money. 
 

25 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's been 40 years since this was an issue.

Any day now.

 

Inflation is found in places outside of CPI.

16 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

There is plenty of reason to worry about the debt.  Back in the old days of capitalism, when the government borrowed 2 trillion dollars, they had to go out on the open market and sell treasury bonds.  This tended to make interest rates rise, and acted somewhat as a brake on excessive borrowing. Now that republicans and democrats have figured out how to skip this step by having the fed buy the bonds,  I don't see any brakes on spending.  This grand experiment can't end well. But it will be much harder on the poor and middle class, who won't have appreciating assets to counter balance rising prices. Wages will struggle to keep up. So far the rich are doing great in this environment. They will likely continue to do well as they can borrow at low rates and watch their assets increase in value.  If you set up an economic plan specifically to benefit the rich, you would be hard pressed to come up with anything better.  And yeah, Trump and the Republicans were horrible on the deficit. Now the democrats are in "Hold my beer" mode. Next up 2 trillion for infrastructure, then 2 trillion for the green new deal.

We are full on MMT government now. 
 

Our debt has to be monetized currently due to the size. What effect does that have around the world on our reserve status? On inflation? And you’re exactly right that inflation will hurt the poor most. I’ll do fine with stocks, investment properties, Bitcoin. Others will do poorly.
 

But the genie is out of the bottle now. Who will propose less handouts or less spending for government programs now? Nobody. Buckle up. 

[elfenix 34171]

1 minute ago, GRHorn said:

We are full on MMT government now. 

 

1 minute ago, GRHorn said:

I think the more irrational position is not being concerned about the inflationary effects of debt monetization.

good thing MMT economists are highly concerned with inflation, then. 

[David Dennison 18658]

2 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Inflation is found in places outside of CPI.

Any major effects over the last 40 years?

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

Just for the record, nobody on this thread sees any need to check spending in any way. Correct?

[bolverk 29399]

6 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

But the genie is out of the bottle now. Who will propose less handouts or less spending for government programs now? Nobody. Buckle up. 

[David Dennison 18658]

We could always raise taxes if Republicans are really worried about fiscal responsibility.

Oh, that's right.

[Js1 85110]

Just now, David Dennison said:

We could always raise taxes if Republicans are really worried about fiscal responsibility.

Oh, that's right.

THIS. X1000

The GOP always says we have a spending problem. We don’t. We have a revenue problem from too many years of GOP tax legislation.  

Edited March 13, 2021 by Js1

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

Just now, David Dennison said:

We could always raise taxes if Republicans are really worried about fiscal responsibility.

Oh, that's right.

My taxes WERE raised in 2018, so fuck that noise.  Seriously, fiscal responsibility hasn't been a thing since Reagan.  It is just something the GQP talks about when the other side is in charge.

[GRHorn 105]

3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Goddamnit 

12 minutes ago, elfenix said:

 

good thing MMT economists are highly concerned with inflation, then. 

I think they, like everyone else, tend to overestimate their capacity to control it.

 

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

We could always raise taxes if Republicans are really worried about fiscal responsibility.

Oh, that's right.

No way man. Taxes aren’t needed. Just print it. 

[David Dennison 18658]

1 minute ago, GRHorn said:

Goddamnit 

I think they, like everyone else, tend to overestimate their capacity to control it.

 

No way man. Taxes aren’t needed. Just print it. 

Of course taxes aren't needed, but taxes will allow the federal government to get those dollars out of the economy.

[GRHorn 105]

16 minutes ago, elfenix said:

 

good thing MMT economists are highly concerned with inflation, then. 

My understanding is they respond to inflation by raising taxes rather than tightening monetary policy via interest rates. So, as the cost of goods is rising faster than they’d like, they expect to be able to pass tax hikes on the population to remove excess money for spending from the economy. Good luck. 

[GRHorn 105]

13 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Any major effects over the last 40 years?

I don’t know. We’ve had a couple massive asset inflation bubbles. They had some consequences if I recall correctly.
 

What about the cost of education or health care? Any effects from those costs rising rapidly? Those have multiple contributing causes, but an increased monetary base is part of it. 

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, GRHorn said:

I don’t know. We’ve had a couple massive asset inflation bubbles. They had some consequences if I recall correctly.

What about the cost of education or health care? Any effects from those costs rising rapidly? Those have multiple contributing causes, but an increased monetary base is part of it. 

Which inflation bubbles are you talking about and what did they have to do with fiscal policy?

[NIUHuskies 504]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

What does this even mean?  Show your work.

If you are going to play conservative that gives a rat's ass about fiscal responsibility, you first need to acknowledge that red states are mostly federal "takers," and that their tax cut policies during boom times (instead of servicing debt and maintaining government services) are fiscally irresponsible.

I present Kansas, Louisiana, and Oklahoma as evidence a b c.

[gmr548 16513]

how to get red states to pay for blue state

[Willfully Horn 7913]

1 hour ago, JohnLocke said:

I'm not sure what covid relief has to do with rewarding blue states that were fiscally irresponsible pre-covid.   Not a good precedent.  It looks like the democrats have figured out how to get red states to pay for blue state public employee pensions. I don't get why any Texan is for this.

Skipping the parts already addressed upthread, I will ask for a link to the public pension bailout. I’ve found reporting that multi-employer pensions will get relief, but not public pensions. I’ll send a link, how about you?

 

https://www.pionline.com/legislation/covid-19-relief-bill-passes-house-includes-aid-pension-plans

[TwiceHorn 31280]

I know it's a reality and it applies equally to #bothsides, but I am not a fan of sneaking or piling in legislation on one topic along with another, especially when the one has great popular support that the other does not.

Other than Covid relief, which has great support, 99.9% of Americans couldn't tell you what else is in that bill.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

15 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

I don’t know. We’ve had a couple massive asset inflation bubbles. They had some consequences if I recall correctly.
 

What about the cost of education or health care? Any effects from those costs rising rapidly? Those have multiple contributing causes, but an increased monetary base is part of it. 

I think you are talking about the Tech bubble of the late 90s, the housing bubble in the late 00s, and then the oil and gas issues in the 80s and the mid 2010's, yes?  Boom and bust cycles are a natural part of the economy.  Always have been.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

 

[GRHorn 105]

17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Which inflation bubbles are you talking about and what did they have to do with fiscal policy?

I would say that the Bush tax cuts in retrospect helped contribute to the Housing bubble and subsequent crisis. 

[jimmyjazz 45558]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I know it's a reality and it applies equally to #bothsides, but I am not a fan of sneaking or piling in legislation on one topic along with another, especially when the one has great popular support that the other does not.

Other than Covid relief, which has great support, 99.9% of Americans couldn't tell you what else is in that bill.

I read that a conservative think tank estimated that the bill contained 0.2% pork.  I'd have to search for the study.

Edited March 13, 2021 by jimmyjazz

[GRHorn 105]

7 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I think you are talking about the Tech bubble of the late 90s, the housing bubble in the late 00s, and then the oil and gas issues in the 80s and the mid 2010's, yes?  Boom and bust cycles are a natural part of the economy.  Always have been.

I understand, but they can definitely be exacerbated by monetary and fiscal policy which are currently coordinating hand in hand. 
 

I would also include the current asset bubble. It an indicator of inflation that is not being counted in the official CPI. 

[workswithseed 2036]

16 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I know it's a reality and it applies equally to #bothsides, but I am not a fan of sneaking or piling in legislation on one topic along with another, especially when the one has great popular support that the other does not.

Other than Covid relief, which has great support, 99.9% of Americans couldn't tell you what else is in that bill.

I mean being given money is always gonna be popular.

Edited March 13, 2021 by workswithseed

[Francisco 2.0 32341]

2 hours ago, JohnLocke said:

I'm not sure what covid relief has to do with rewarding blue states that were fiscally irresponsible pre-covid.   Not a good precedent.  It looks like the democrats have figured out how to get red states to pay for blue state public employee pensions. I don't get why any Texan is for this.

Oh for fucks sake.

I'm pretty sure you won't be against any federal subsidies that will eventually end up bailing out Texas residents and energy companies for the fiasco of last month, right?

You know, those subsidies that will be funded by fiscally responsible blue states that could keep their fucking lights on.  I don't get why any (check notes) resident of California, New York, etc. would be for this.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Francisco 2.0

[TwiceHorn 31280]

18 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I read that a conservative think tank estimated that the bill contained 0.2% pork.  I'd have to search for the study.

I'm not saying it's pork, per se.  But no one really voted to bail out union pensions for example.  And it's not an immediate bailout, either, so people can get their pensions today.  It's a safeguarding against future amounts that will come due and associated pension failures.

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

Because the currency debasement and inflation that eventually goes along with it are undesirable. 

I agree. We should reverse the trump tax scam and generate trillions more in revenue from corporations and billionaires. Thank you for finally acknowledging that.  Let’s get it passed. 

[David Dennison 18658]

37 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

I would say that the Bush tax cuts in retrospect helped contribute to the Housing bubble and subsequent crisis. 

I would agree.

[mchookem 16218]

38 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Skipping the parts already addressed upthread, I will ask for a link to the public pension bailout. I’ve found reporting that multi-employer pensions will get relief, but not public pensions. I’ll send a link, how about you?

 

https://www.pionline.com/legislation/covid-19-relief-bill-passes-house-includes-aid-pension-plans

this has been pointed out a couple of times in this thread with no acknowledgement from the OP that his entire premise is based on a mistruth.

i don't like mass negs in CR because they stifle discussion, but the OP seems truly disingenuous. 

[GRHorn 105]

4 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I agree. We should reverse the trump tax scam and generate trillions more in revenue from corporations and billionaires. Thank you for finally acknowledging that.  Let’s get it passed. 

Here’s your problem Jimmy. We already blew a ton of money last year and didn’t “have to” raise taxes for it. Subconsciously people noticed that and realize it. You may get some nominal tax increase on super wealthy, but we have really crossed the Rubicon with regards to even pretending to need to balance taxes and spending. There’s no immediate consequences that the average person can see so burn baby burn. 

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, GRHorn said:

Here’s your problem Jimmy. We already blew a ton of money last year and didn’t “have to” raise taxes for it. Subconsciously people noticed that and realize it. You may get some nominal tax increase on super wealthy, but we have really crossed the Rubicon with regards to even pretending to need to balance taxes and spending. There’s no immediate consequences that the average person can see so burn baby burn. 

Good. Now we need to increase the number of brackets and adjust the rates. 

[workswithseed 2036]

This what you're talking about, OP? 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-10/what-s-in-the-1-9-trillion-stimulus-bill-biden-is-about-to-sign

State Aid

Senate Democrats included more than $360 billion in aid for state, local and territorial governments. Democrats for months have pushed for more money to help state and local governments that have faced higher costs and lower tax revenue during the pandemic. States and cities warn they’ll be forced to make deep cuts to public health, safety and education programs without more funding, because they can’t borrow money in the way the federal government can. Many Republicans chafed at more money for local governments, saying it amounts to a bailout for mismanaged budgets. The package also includes specific pots of money for critical infrastructure, including broadband internet, and money for rural hospitals.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/02/06/do-states-and-cities-need-bidens-350-billion-covid-relief/4343420001/

More in here if you wanted to read.

[David Dennison 18658]

Look kids, the federal government is doing what it's supposed to!

[UpperWestside 6136]

This was a fun read from the OP right before the election. This place has a lot of intentional humor which is cool and partially what makes the site a great read. Unintentional humor is fun too! Bolded for emphasis.
 

Quote

Geez, Brisket, you are so melodramatic. You act like you have some great cause.  You don't have shit for a cause. You are aligning with the same old corruptocrats who have been enriching themselves on the government dole for decades.  This election shouldn't be close. I have many conservative friends. Many if not most of them are tired of Trump's act. He's the most narcissistic guy I've ever seen.  Almost all of them will stick with him because he's better than the alternative, and they feel like he's a least on their side. All you had to do was nominate somebody who could plausible pretend to be a moderate left of center guy. And you would have won easily. Instead you nominate somebody who is corrupt even by Washington standards of corruption. Somebody who picks as his running mate a politician who is  somehow left of Bernie Sanders.  This is going to be a close election because you guys have picked a guy who spent his vice presidency vacuuming up millions of dollars from Russia, China, and the Ukraine and using his drug addicted son as the bagman.  And selling out America in the process.  If you guys lose, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Your candidate stinks and your platform has been hijacked by the far left,  and has zero appeal to the middle class. And if you win, you haven't won a great victory, you have just elected a guy who will continue Washington corruption as usual.  

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

Harris left of Bernie is hilarious.

[SaucyJack 3487]

3 hours ago, JohnLocke said:

I'm not sure what covid relief has to do with rewarding blue states that were fiscally irresponsible pre-covid.   Not a good precedent.  It looks like the democrats have figured out how to get red states to pay for blue state public employee pensions. I don't get why any Texan is for this.

[Serak The Preparer 3424]

I can only imagine the rage @JohnLocke must feel about FEMA and the SBA providing monetary assistance, food, water, and shelter to Texas as a result of the winter storm. I can't imagine a more clear-cut recent example of fiscal irresponsibility, and here you damn Texans are getting bailed out with my tax dollars!

[RomaVicta 29792]

3 hours ago, GRHorn said:

Just for the record, nobody on this thread sees any need to check spending in any way. Correct?

Dems in, we care about and object to spending to restore the economy and keep people from being evicted by the 1%.  GOPs in, we care about cutting government funding via tax breaks for the 1%.

This shit only thrives with an electorate with short memories and almost one-half comprised of cultists who will repeat the liturgy spoken by the cult leader.

To answer your question, GR, I care about spending and funding. Tax the top %. You can call it the Class Warfare Bill for all I care. You'll falsely label it that way anyway to avoid talking about the numbers that allegedly concern you. We also don't need so many tank divisions, aircraft carrier battle groups, and pointless foreign wars such as the Iraq invasion which also robbed Afghanistan of the Special Forces we had in place there providing our best chance for a good outcome. 

Too many words for too many people.

Taxes bad. Spending bad. Government useless. The rich and corporations will take care of us if we just let them. Don't tell me about history! 

Idiot World.

Let us not think that Brisket's ledge is to be abandoned as an option for the future.

[JimmyJames 12271]

7 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Dems in, we care about and object to spending to restore the economy and keep people from being evicted by the 1%.  GOPs in, we care about cutting government funding via tax breaks for the 1%.

This shit only thrives with an electorate with short memories and almost one-half comprised of cultists who will repeat the liturgy spoken by the cult leader.

To answer your question, GR, I care about spending and funding. Tax the top %. You can call it the Class Warfare Bill for all I care. You'll falsely label it that way anyway to avoid talking about the numbers that allegedly concern you. We also don't need so many tank divisions, aircraft carrier battle groups, and pointless foreign wars such as the Iraq invasion which also robbed Afghanistan of the Special Forces we had in place there providing our best chance for a good outcome. 

Too many words for too many people.

Taxes bad. Spending bad. Government useless. The rich and corporations will take care of us if we just let them. Don't tell me about history! 

Idiot World.

Let us not think that Brisket's ledge is to be abandoned as an option for the future.

When it became crystal clear there were no WMD in Iraq that was the beginning of the end of my support for the GOP. I slowly but surely started to realize I had been made the fool and by the time 2008 rolled around I was voting dem again and subsequent events have made it to where if my own brother ran as a Republican I would campaign against him.

[GRHorn 105]

32 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Dems in, we care about and object to spending to restore the economy and keep people from being evicted by the 1%.  GOPs in, we care about cutting government funding via tax breaks for the 1%.

This shit only thrives with an electorate with short memories and almost one-half comprised of cultists who will repeat the liturgy spoken by the cult leader.

To answer your question, GR, I care about spending and funding. Tax the top %. You can call it the Class Warfare Bill for all I care. You'll falsely label it that way anyway to avoid talking about the numbers that allegedly concern you. We also don't need so many tank divisions, aircraft carrier battle groups, and pointless foreign wars such as the Iraq invasion which also robbed Afghanistan of the Special Forces we had in place there providing our best chance for a good outcome. 

Too many words for too many people.

Taxes bad. Spending bad. Government useless. The rich and corporations will take care of us if we just let them. Don't tell me about history! 

Idiot World.

Let us not think that Brisket's ledge is to be abandoned as an option for the future.

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

Always with the gifs. Best troll spotting technique there is. 

[GRHorn 105]

1 hour ago, UpperWestside said:

This was a fun read from the OP right before the election. This place has a lot of intentional humor which is cool and partially what makes the site a great read. Unintentional humor is fun too! Bolded for emphasis.
 

 

5 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Always with the gifs. Best troll spotting technique there is. 

 

[Biff Tannen 45495]

46 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

When it became crystal clear there were no WMD in Iraq that was the beginning of the end of my support for the GOP. I slowly but surely started to realize I had been made the fool and by the time 2008 rolled around I was voting dem again and subsequent events have made it to where if my own brother ran as a Republican I would campaign against him.

This was pretty much me too.  I was pretty much a Dem anyway, but I was entertaining R ideas still.  2000 was my first election.  The Iraq nonsense made me a Dem for life and this madness that's happening now just pisses me off.

[ndawg 1242]

Meanwhile, in an executive conference room at headquarters, those McKinsey guys are killing it with a plan to gut the American workforce and move operations overseas. The American worker, after all, is hardly any better educated or capable than their third world counterpart. Sure glad the party of fiscal responsibility defunded our education system, am I right? Think about all the the taxes you didn't have to pay in order to give Joe Sixpack a future.

Fiscal irresponsibility goes both ways. If you fail to provide for successive generations, you're as foolish as an overspender, no matter how much you posture yourself as thrifty.