Private schools are indefensible

[Sbbruin 21,865]

Or so would argue Caitlin Flanagan of The Atlantic.  This topic has been debated here at length.  My wife and I spend an obscene amount of money on private schools for our 2 kids.  For 2 reasons- the public school options are so poor we would have to pray our kids would rise well above the average student and overachieve as opposed to being surrounded by high achievers and feeling a near obligation to succeed; and because we both were products of private schools.  In fact the school the author taught at and references was my school for 7th-9th grade before switching schools.  My parents, and my wife’s, sacrificed to give us that opportunity, and we both felt the same obligation to give our own kids every advantage we can.  Pasadena and the surrounding areas have more private schools than just about anywhere in Southern California, and as a result, a public school system that was already teetering is collapsing.  Campuses are closing left and right.  And the remaining ones become ever more crowded and the disparity in education grows wider.  Sure, we could consider the greater good of society and send our kids to public school (and be much wealthier at the same time) in an effort to try to raise all boats.  But my first responsibility is to my own kids.  So we have gone private.  But I will agree that it perpetuates the education disparity.

There is a lot more she delves into.  The article is loooong.  If you care about the subject,  I would  suggest listening to the audio reading of the article as I did (in the link).  It will be interesting to see how both secondary education and college degrees evolve over the next couple of decades.  The current system where the “haves” continue to pass their privilege down to the next generation will be hard to sustain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/private-schools-are-indefensible/618078/

[CHIEF 5,094]

I thought you lived in California, not Louisiana.

CHIEF

[StruggleBus 3,922]

Sounds like something a poor person would say

[bschoolprof 6,271]

Many public schools in suburban Houston, Dallas, etc are actually quite good. Is the same not true in CA? 

[Brew 3,049]

I have 2 kids in private school and am in my 7th year on the board now serving a 2 year term as Board Chair. I also graduated from one of the worst public high schools in the state, but I had grandparents who were very invested in my education. I’ve seen both sides just for the record. 

There is a lot of truth in the article although she does take it to a level that only applies to the top percentile of private schools in the country. However, her view on the parent/school relationship and the changes in the dynamics are spot on. The issues have always been there, the parents have always felt an outsized sense of “ownership”, etc. but it has become more problematic in recent years and is borderline toxic. Teachers and administrators are burning out quicker and you aren’t seeing the long-term continuity that was in those positions in the past. There is also an inherent sense of racism built into a lot of them. I would bet a large group of private schools especially in the south have origins to the years of desegregation. The largest one in our area was formed the same year as desegregation hit the school system.

 

[Neonmoon 38,130]

31 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

Many public schools in suburban Houston, Dallas, etc are actually quite good. Is the same not true in CA? 

I think this is the point. Why are the schools in suburban Houston good and the metro shit? 

[bschoolprof 6,271]

43 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I think this is the point. Why are the schools in suburban Houston good and the metro shit? 

Yes, I get that. But OP makes it sound like the only option educated parents who care about their kids have is to spend $$$ on private school. That sounds silly to me. 

[TwiceHorn 31,515]

19 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I think this is the point. Why are the schools in suburban Houston good and the metro shit? 

As far as I can tell, size of the district has a big impact.  DISD is big and thoroughly mediocre, with a few exceptions, and HISD I assume is similar.  The suburban districts are much smaller.

A sub-factor to that is the constituencies that the ISDs serve or represent and how "diverse" they are, which doesn't mean ethnically or even economically, necessarily, but I imagine it's tough to serve the priorities of different interest groups without judging the relative merits of their interests.

I have zero doubt that private schools are injurious to public schools in all kinds of ways.

But the choice to send your kids to one seems fundamentally American.

[Brew 3,049]

2 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

Yes, I get that. But OP makes it sound like the only option educated parents who care about their kids have is to spend $$$ on private school. That sounds silly to me. 

It’s the only option where I live. The public schools are on a different level of dysfunction. With two girls it was an easy decision.

[Hank Scorpio 17,729]

1 hour ago, Brew said:

 I would bet a large group of private schools especially in the south have origins to the years of desegregation. 

 

Buddy, I got some good news for you, you’re gonna win that bet. 

[workswithseed 2,109]

32 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

As far as I can tell, size of the district has a big impact.  DISD is big and thoroughly mediocre, with a few exceptions, and HISD I assume is similar.  The suburban districts are much smaller.

A sub-factor to that is the constituencies that the ISDs serve or represent and how "diverse" they are, which doesn't mean ethnically or even economically, necessarily, but I imagine it's tough to serve the priorities of different interest groups without judging the relative merits of their interests.

I have zero doubt that private schools are injurious to public schools in all kinds of ways.

But the choice to send your kids to one seems fundamentally American.

Yeah, I bet she hates homeschooling as well.

[dcar00 14,319]

38 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

 

But the choice to send your kids to one seems fundamentally American.

This aggression will not stand, man.

Edited March 14, 2021 by dcar00

[Fudge Nuggets 19,209]

The town I grew up in had a public high school that was rated one of the best public schools in the nation at the time and a pretty middling private school.  The private school is where parents that didn’t want their kids associating with black kids sent their sprogs.

[Bevo 13,591]

7 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

The town I grew up in had a public high school that was rated one of the best public schools in the nation at the time and a pretty middling private school.  The private school is where parents that didn’t want their kids associating with black kids sent their sprogs.

I went to one of the top public high schools in the state. The private schools in Houston such as Kinkaid and St. Thomas were far ahead of us. And for the record, in my neighborhood the public school was not very diverse so race had nothing to do with the choice of public vs private. Private schools simply offered a better education.

[royiv 9,333]

Private schools have always seemed like a massive waste of cash to me. I was brought up in the private school environment (Hyde Park in Austin) and it sucked. My parents gave me the option of private or public for middle school and I jumped as fast as I could. I learned more real life experience in public that set me up for being a well adjusted human in the real world. You can get a good education anywhere if you are motivated and you learn more not being a bubble wrapped insulated environment.

[Sbbruin 21,865]

2 hours ago, bschoolprof said:

Yes, I get that. But OP makes it sound like the only option educated parents who care about their kids have is to spend $$$ on private school. That sounds silly to me. 

No I did not say that.  I said that is my choice and gave the reasons why I made that choice.  It is a multi-variable equation for sure.

[fattyflattie 4,638]

We are very likely going to make the switch this year. 3 kids. Fuck me. 

[Sbbruin 21,865]

2 hours ago, Brew said:

It’s the only option where I live. The public schools are on a different level of dysfunction. With two girls it was an easy decision.

Same where I live.  My kids would have to significantly overachieve at the local public HS to break free of the dysfunction.

[Hank Scorpio 17,729]

19 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Same where I live.  My kids would have to significantly overachieve at the local public HS to break free of the dysfunction.

I’m sorry to hear that you don’t believe in your children. 

[KYHorn 17,123]

4 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

Same where I live.  My kids would have to significantly overachieve at the local public HS to break free of the dysfunction.

By "massively overachieve", I'm assuming you weren't referring to AP, honors, or duel credit? Because those options dramatically change the public school experience. If your kids can't make it in those classes, then I understand the desire to send them to private school

[956 Worldwide 34,741]

This is one of those things where I just can’t draw a clear bright line. Undoubtedly, public schools would benefit from the involvement of the people who on average, send kids to private school— higher income, more involved, etc. On the other hand, it’s reasonable for parents to be conservative when talking about their kids’ futures and at some point a critical mass gets reached where dysfunction swamps anything a few families can do. 
 

I have a close family member who taught at a large metropolitan ISD school who bailed out after about seven years. Moved to a suburban private religious school for less money and a decline in benefits. She hated to do it, and felt like she had abandoned the majority of good kids there, but she and her spouse decided that her physical safety was non-negotiable. It wasn’t so much the actual assaults as the follow up— a lot of administrators urging her to dig deep and try to understand what “caused” it and the kids returned to the classroom with no real consequences. The message was clear, that statistics and avoiding bad press with a racial/socioeconomic angle were more important than an employee’s physical safety. Or, for that matter, the physical safety of other minority students who weekend regularly terrorized in halls and classrooms. 
 

For men, that is something that is nonnegotiable. No family should be expected to send a child to an environment where physical safety is at regular risk and if public schools can’t do that, then they should expect flight. 

[956 Worldwide 34,741]

5 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

I’m sorry to hear that you don’t believe in your children. 

Not that simple at all. It’s one thing for kids to learn self-motivation, organizing themselves, and hard work without the handholding that can happen. 
 

But sometimes I’m surprised at the amount of bullshit we expect kids to tolerate that grownups never would. If you worked at a place where people called you names all the time, or stole shit from you, or put hands on you....you’d walk out. Hell, you’d sue and get some money or have people arrested.

Of course, kids are different because they are still learning impulse control, social skills, etc. But in general, if shit happens on the reg to a kid that you wouldn’t tolerate in your day to day, it’s time to find a better environment. Especially the higher the grade level. Kids shouldn’t have to burden more than a grownup would. 
 

 

[Armybrat 40,858]

6 hours ago, royiv said:

Private schools have always seemed like a massive waste of cash to me. I was brought up in the private school environment (Hyde Park in Austin) and it sucked. My parents gave me the option of private or public for middle school and I jumped as fast as I could. I learned more real life experience in public that set me up for being a well adjusted human in the real world. You can get a good education anywhere if you are motivated and you learn more not being a bubble wrapped insulated environment.

You post here and claim to be well adjusted? 😉

While there have always been poor public schools, I believe the general decline in the modern era began with the “loosening” of the American culture in the 1960s. Old school discipline fell out of favor which coincided with the decline in widespread employment of former high school football coaches as principals. That was due to the then new “woke” thinking among college education departments, it seems.
Then came desegregation and the new phenomena of parents showing up at disciplinary conferences with lawyers to intimidate administrators. Plus the growth of entitlement attitudes and “my kid does no wrong, the teacher is at fault”.

All that in addition to the White Flight to escape integration and/or the decline in school quality. 
JMHO

Caveat: My HS alma mater was St. Edward’s in Austin (opened in 1878, closed in 1967).

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Armybrat

[Incredulity 11,679]

7 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I have a close family member who taught at a large metropolitan ISD school who bailed out after about seven years. Moved to a suburban private religious school for less money and a decline in benefits. She hated to do it, and felt like she had abandoned the majority of good kids there, but she and her spouse decided that her physical safety was non-negotiable. It wasn’t so much the actual assaults as the follow up— a lot of administrators urging her to dig deep and try to understand what “caused” it and the kids returned to the classroom with no real consequences. The message was clear, that statistics and avoiding bad press with a racial/socioeconomic angle were more important than an employee’s physical safety. Or, for that matter, the physical safety of other minority students who weekend regularly terrorized in halls and classrooms.

This.

The inability to remove chronic trouble making students makes a hard job impossible.  Managing schools to attendance metrics and a bastardized equity standard has sacrificed the quality education of millions of middle and lower income children.  

[Armybrat 40,858]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

This.

The inability to remove chronic trouble making students makes a hard job impossible.  Managing schools to attendance metrics and a bastardized equity standard has sacrificed the quality education of millions of middle and lower income children.  

That, and the ill-conceived fantasy that “every kid should go to college“, so let’s gear the curriculum to that end.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,209]

On 3/14/2021 at 7:55 AM, Armybrat said:

Then came desegregation and the new phenomena of parents showing up at disciplinary conferences with lawyers to intimidate administrators.

Yeah, everything would be much better if those damn uppity .... would have stayed in their place.

[futureman 22,516]

9 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

the ill-conceived fantasy that “every kid should go to college“,

I mentioned to my sister once that too many people these days felt compelled to go to college and a good portion of them would be better served going to trade schools at 18. she recoiled as though I were professing my allegiance to the third reich. “everyone needs to go to college.”

[futureman 22,516]

22 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Plus the growth of entitlement attitudes and “my kid does no wrong, the teacher is at fault”.

 

[royiv 9,333]

3 minutes ago, futureman said:

I mentioned to my sister once that too many people these days felt compelled to go to college and a good portion of them would be better served going to trade schools at 18. she recoiled as though I were professing my allegiance to the third reich. “everyone needs to go to college.”

We’ve done a terrible job treating and teaching trades as noble professions. 

[gmr548 16,590]

I don’t have kids so I don’t really have a dog in the fight, but I have worked in a low SES school. There are legitimate knocks on education policy/administration but a lot of issues with low SES schools have roots far beyond education policy. Everyone’s individual situation is different but ultimately I can’t ever see myself sending kids to private school. The financial commitment is insane.

[956 Worldwide 34,741]

I’ll say this, my sister would say that she’d far prefer an entitled parent than what she got, which was in most cases parents unable or uninterested in taking any sort of role in their child’s education.

The decline of public schools can’t be traced to a few causes or a change in mentality, it’s reflective of what is going on in America as a whole.  Namely, that we don’t invest in our people anymore.

[gmr548 16,590]

I mentioned to my sister once that too many people these days felt compelled to go to college and a good portion of them would be better served going to trade schools at 18. she recoiled as though I were professing my allegiance to the third reich. “everyone needs to go to college.”

Agree for the most part, though this line of thinking is often just just as an excuse to write off a large chunk of kids in favor of accepting the status quo. Everyone should have the opportunity to go to college and the education system should aim to make that a possibility for every kid/family that wants it.

I also worked with plenty of kids that said something along the line of “honestly I just want to work on cars,” and I agree we’re not doing nearly enough for those kids.

[gmr548 16,590]

I’ll say this, my sister would say that she’d far prefer an entitled parent than what she got, which was in most cases parents unable or uninterested in taking any sort of role in their child’s education.
The decline of public schools can’t be traced to a few causes or a change in mentality, it’s reflective of what is going on in America as a whole.  Namely, that we don’t invest in our people anymore.

Dilly dilly

[Incredulity 11,679]

 

7 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 Namely, that we don’t invest in our people anymore

 

We spend a large  amount of money per student, #2 per student globally. The results are dogshit.

[956 Worldwide 34,741]

10 minutes ago, futureman said:

I mentioned to my sister once that too many people these days felt compelled to go to college and a good portion of them would be better served going to trade schools at 18. she recoiled as though I were professing my allegiance to the third reich. “everyone needs to go to college.”

Part of the reason for this reaction is because it’s only a short jump from “not everyone needs to go to college” (true) to “we know what (types of) kids don’t need college” (ummmm...) to “well, these (types of) kids aren’t going to college so who cares.” 
 

And that absolutely has and does happen. There’s a big difference between “not everyone needs to go to college” and “not everyone needs the chance to go college” that gets blurred. 

[TwiceHorn 31,515]

11 minutes ago, futureman said:

 

I think a big part of this is the general devaluation of teachers that has occurred.  I think the pendulum is starting to swing the other way, but for a while there, it seemed like there was a bit of an avalanche of teacher criticism that made it much easier to second-guess what a kid's teacher was doing with your precioussss.

[Incredulity 11,679]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Part of the reason for this reaction is because it’s only a short jump from “not everyone needs to go to college” (true) to “we know what (types of) kids don’t need college” (ummmm...) to “well, these (types of) kids aren’t going to college so who cares.” 
 

And that absolutely has and does happen. There’s a big difference between “not everyone needs to go to college” and “not everyone needs the chance to go college” that gets blurred. 

We must find a way to deal with previous inequity that doesn’t damn everyone to the lowest common denominator.

[956 Worldwide 34,741]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

 

 

We spend a large  amount of money per student, #2 per student globally. The results are dogshit.

I’m not talking strictly about school funding. 

[gmr548 16,590]

 
 
We spend a large  amount of money per student, #2 per student globally. The results are dogshit.

It’s similar to healthcare. We spend a metric fuckton of money there and get garbage health outcomes. Why? Because much of what drives those outcomes is rooted outside the medical system. Same is true for education

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

We must find a way to deal with previous inequity that doesn’t damn everyone to the lowest common denominator.

Multi tiered programs:  Remedial, normal pace, and an accelerated pace.  That all goes hand in hand with programs geared to trades, and programs geared to an advanced education track.

Get the teachers unions out of the policy making decisions as well (watch Waiting for Superman), they have nothing to do with making anything better for the situation other than for themselves at the expense of kids.  And hell yes teachers should be paid more, (performing teachers that is).

[Guest]

Raised 2 boys in publics. Oldest one went to West Point and says there was virtually no  advantage between students who went the different routes to get there.  They were never in a group project or whatever, and , "Oh that guy went to a prestigious prep school and it shows..."  He took as rigorous an academic load in high school as was available.  He was as ready as his peers in that regard.

Younger son, struggled more academically( effort) but insisted upon honors/ AP  classes because he didn't want to be in the 'regular' crowd.  It is in this concept that I agree with folks who send their kids to privates.  It is a more uniform mindset towards the goal, allegedly. He ends up scoring higher on his ACT and SAT than his older brother, but didn't want the same path. See also: I just want to turn wrenches.

I lived in Louisiana for a year and I witnessed/ lived with people openly choosing privates so their little cracker-ass-cracker snowflake would be protected from "those other kids."   I hated it, and it was one of the single biggest factors in our only living there a year.  My kids were not going to grow up in that environment.  I also have peers at work and neighbors who send their kids to private schools as an act of conscience, telling themselves they did all they could for their kids' educations.  Queue the Will Hunting public library quote.

If your kids need private schools, then cool.  I don't have a problem with it. It's not some magic wand process though. As has been shared many times on education threads on this board, I am very pro- public education and feel an excellent, rigorous education can be achieved.  I feel defunding public schools will even further erode the lowest common denominator among us- our society's general education level.

Both formats can exist.  Don't put public money in the privates. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by slorch

[956 Worldwide 34,741]

7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think a big part of this is the general devaluation of teachers that has occurred.  I think the pendulum is starting to swing the other way, but for a while there, it seemed like there was a bit of an avalanche of teacher criticism that made it much easier to second-guess what a kid's teacher was doing with your precioussss.

I think there is another factor, and I need to make clear that I am NOT advocating a return to “the way things were.” In mid century America, with many professional avenues closed to women, the teaching profession was a field that was attractive to women who wanted some financial independence, a work schedule that could jibe with home life, and a social/external life.  It attracted smart, capable women who were not necessarily “called” to being teachers, which is what it seems we expect from all men and women teachers.  I think a lot of smart women who would have been teachers in 1960 are in business or law or medicine now.

And that’s a good win for women, and maybe part of the solution is to figure out a way to make teaching an attractive and rewarding professional proposition and not expect it to be a calling or community service. I can say that I thought about education as a career but looked at what type of lifestyle that would mean and said “nope.”

[TwiceHorn 31,515]

7 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I think there is another factor, and I need to make clear that I am NOT advocating a return to “the way things were.” In mid century America, with many professional avenues closed to women, the teaching profession was a field that was attractive to women who wanted some financial independence, a work schedule that could jibe with home life, and a social/external life.  It attracted smart, capable women who were not necessarily “called” to being teachers, which is what it seems we expect from all men and women teachers.  I think a lot of smart women who would have been teachers in 1960 are in business or law or medicine now.

And that’s a good win for women, and maybe part of the solution is to figure out a way to make teaching an attractive and rewarding professional proposition and not expect it to be a calling or community service. I can say that I thought about education as a career but looked at what type of lifestyle that would mean and said “nope.”

Very true.  I had a wise colleague practicing law that once pointed out that the legal secretaries "of yore" were now kicking ass as lawyers.

[Armybrat 40,858]

On 3/14/2021 at 8:13 AM, Fudge Nuggets said:

Yeah, everything would be much better if those damn uppity .... would have stayed in their place.

If you really think the discipline problems that resulted from desegregation were one-sided, then you would be very wrong.

[Message Board User 12,395]

A quick google shows that the average teacher salary in Texas is between 50K-60K, maybe higher or lower depending on the school district.

How much more money do we need to pay teachers to make it an attractive profession?

As has been stated above, the problem with public schools is NOT lack of money.

[956 Worldwide 34,741]

13 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

A quick google shows that the average teacher salary in Texas is between 50K-60K, maybe higher or lower depending on the school district.

How much more money do we need to pay teachers to make it an attractive profession?

As has been stated above, the problem with public schools is NOT lack of money.

It depends on the type of candidate you’re wanting to attract. At that band, you’re paying in line with cops, mid-level  managers and administrators, some of the skilled trades, etc. 

[Sbbruin 21,865]

7 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

I’m sorry to hear that you don’t believe in your children. 

Wow.  Seriously?  OK.

[SimonBolivar 10,958]

2 hours ago, Incredulity said:

 

 

We spend a large  amount of money per student, #2 per student globally. The results are dogshit.

It will continue to be that way as long as our culture doesn't give a fuck about it at the micro level.

 

My wife teaches at a school that's so poor that they're paying for her masters just to teach there. All of the kids that are struggling have parents that are tuned out of their kid's education. They're so far tuned out that when my wife calls them to set up free after school tutoring to try and get them to the reading level of a kindergartener (these are end of year 2nd graders) they turn her down because they don't want to have to pick up kids twice. This isn't some sprawling suburban district by the way, but a neighborhood elementary school that services just a few blocks. 

 

My wife went to school in this district and knew it would be this way. She graduated with many of the parents of her students and she still can't convince them to help their kids for free. Next year she'll probably be moving to a strictly ESL classroom and those kids are 10x better behaved and try much harder than the regular kids in her school. They just have more to learn.

Edited March 14, 2021 by SimonBolivar

[Js1 85,452]

25 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Wow.  Seriously?  OK.

Methinks you don’t know Hank’s posting style 

[midtown 3,346]

This article surprises no one.