Private schools are indefensible

[956 Worldwide 34746]

18 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I honestly want to know what the private school kids were learning that you weren’t. Because if it isn’t calculus and physics in 8th grade, or your 4th year of a foreign language or first year of a second foreign language, those kids would not be even a grade level ahead of my public school kids. And those options are available to my kids if I were an insane parent

Let’s not operate under the pretense that these institutions and the elite higher education institutions they feed into are doing anything other than churning out mediocrities with inflated senses of self-worth and all the right numbers in their iPhones. They are good at kids’ party tricks like reading three grades beyond level and using the right tone when ordering dim sum, but they are not creating educated, capable people.

A bright public school grad who gets through a rigorous field of study at a very good state school will almost certainly be more knowledgeable, motivated, organized, and tested than the Ivanka and Jareds of the world, and all the people who now pretend they didn’t go to parties with them. With some notable exceptions for the hard sciences and real brain schools like MIT, Chicago, CalTech, etc., where rowing or badminton will not help you.

The state school grad will also work for the Jareds and Ivankas most of the time, literally or figuratively. That person will never have the coded manners, the Rolodexes, the clothes, the accents, that really matter. At best, the state school grad will accumulate enough cash to get progeny into those circles. Those schools do not exist to create Masters of the Universe, they exist to confirm that status. A modern day Order of the Golden Fleece.

Edited March 14, 2021 by 956 Worldwide

[gmr548 16606]

For English, we had to blow off a few books over the summer. Prep student had to blow off about 16 books.

Fixed to accurately reflect real teenage behavior

[washparkhorn 9939]

4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

coded manners . . . 

. . . the key to success for many. 

[Brothahorn 10087]

It's all about options. If you have the option for a good public school then take it. If your options are bad public schools or private, then private is obviously better. We lived HISD and North Forest ISD, so they were non starters for my mom. So she made sacrifices necessary. 

 

Same with me. When we decided to have kids, we moved from 5th ward to Humble for the schools. 

 

 

[Helobious 9464]

23 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I think the finances here are also being overlooked.  Exeter has a 1.3 billion dollar endowment and 1,100 kids. The capital campaigns for these schools are insane. It’s absolutely not an efficient allocation of education funds. 
 

Key to note here is that we are talking about a few dozen, maybe a hundred truly elite schools.  The vast majority of private and parochial schools have much tighter budgets. Similar to how the conversation goes with churches, the mega temples have truly obscene budgets and salaries but most of them are trying to keep their buildings, a pastor, and the lights on. 

I went to St Albans for a few years in elementary. Not sure how it is nowadays but when I was there I know most or all of those teachers got paid shit. I don’t know why, I figured that school would have more money behind it since almost all the well to do folks in town sent their kids there. Definitely a good school though, recently they had like a 14 or 15 year run of HHS valedictorians being St Albans alums. I was definitely not one of them though.

[956 Worldwide 34746]

7 minutes ago, Helobious said:

I went to St Albans for a few years in elementary. Not sure how it is nowadays but when I was there I know most or all of those teachers got paid shit. I don’t know why, I figured that school would have more money behind it since almost all the well to do folks in town sent their kids there. Definitely a good school though, recently they had like a 14 or 15 year run of HHS valedictorians being St Albans alums. I was definitely not one of them though.

St. Albans is a bit down on their luck. The answer for why they paid (and pay) crap is the same for why lots of similar private and parochial schools pay crap—- they can get away with it.  Here’s who they hired:

1. Older former public teachers (good ones) who wanted to work at a more low-stress, more parent involvement job. Plenty already getting TRS. 

2. Wives of well to do or at least solidly middle class men who wanted a job and to be busy but did NOT want the bullshit of being a public school teacher.

3. Younger teachers who were from well to do families who were looking for something to do until they became #2.

Also, St. Albans ended at grade six, and it’s high school where you can really begin to demand crazy sums.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by 956 Worldwide

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Most humans live unexamined lives. 

 

Trust me, you're being examined....

 

[Sbbruin 21866]

48 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I honestly want to know what the private school kids were learning that you weren’t. Because if it isn’t calculus and physics in 8th grade, or your 4th year of a foreign language or first year of a second foreign language, those kids would not be even a grade level ahead of my public school kids. And those options are available to my kids if I were an insane parent

I don’t think it was so much that they had taken classes that were markedly different, it was just the depth of which they understood the material and could therefore move quicker in 7th grade than me.  Well that, and I was a screw off.  

[Bevo 13596]

35 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Let’s not operate under the pretense that these institutions and the elite higher education institutions they feed into are doing anything other than churning out mediocrities with inflated senses of self-worth and all the right numbers in their iPhones. They are good at kids’ party tricks like reading three grades beyond level and using the right tone when ordering dim sum, but they are not creating educated, capable people.

A bright public school grad who gets through a rigorous field of study at a very good state school will almost certainly be more knowledgeable, motivated, organized, and tested than the Ivanka and Jareds of the world, and all the people who now pretend they didn’t go to parties with them. With some notable exceptions for the hard sciences and real brain schools like MIT, Chicago, CalTech, etc., where rowing or badminton will not help you.

The state school grad will also work for the Jareds and Ivankas most of the time, literally or figuratively. That person will never have the coded manners, the Rolodexes, the clothes, the accents, that really matter. At best, the state school grad will accumulate enough cash to get progeny into those circles. Those schools do not exist to create Masters of the Universe, they exist to confirm that status. A modern day Order of the Golden Fleece.

I think you are projecting.

[Sawbonz 27584]

25 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

I don’t think it was so much that they had taken classes that were markedly different, it was just the depth of which they understood the material and could therefore move quicker in 7th grade than me.  Well that, and I was a screw off.  

Honest it’s probably the latter. More likely than not you would have figured things out in the end had you stayed in public school. I have nothing against private schools I just don’t see it as judicious use of my money. Unless the Ivies are important to you, or certain fraternities or sororities at certain other schools, it just doesn’t matter if you have a high aptitude kid

[Sawbonz 27584]

2 hours ago, Bevo said:

In math, you could compare the AP student in a good public school to the standard prep student - so not a whole lot of difference. For English, we had to read a few books over the summer. Prep student had to read about 16 books. So liberal arts was much more advanced in private school. For foreign language, I think what was taught was about the same. However, the competition and the need to excel was greater in the private school. I think in public school, we had a tendency to screw around.

I can’t say I was impressed with the aptitude of the elite prep school grads I encountered in undergrad. And I can’t say I was all that impressed in med school with the products of prep schools who went Ivy for undergrad. And I did my post grad training at an Ivy, and other than having nicer cars and apartments, they still didn’t stand out. 
 

Spend your money on whatever you like but you’re paying more for contacts than you are for education IMO

[Reagan1k 3024]

I have always felt that the biggest divide is the value that is placed on education rather than the value that is paid into or for that education, and it isn't necessarily the "fault" of those who do not value it, by and large.  They've never seen, much less received the payoff.

The private school customers, for instance, value the idea of "education", regardless of what that "education" means to them...whether it means access, real learning, social status, etc.  They value it and therefore invest time and money in it.

We have an entire segment of our society which sees little to no value in earning an education, and therefore we are left with these un-invested parents and subsequently under-invested students.  They have no relatable and real-life examples in their life who are demonstrating the benefits of an earned education.  Often, the only examples they see of success are the antithesis of those who achieved through hard work in the educational system.  An education is a stigma and not a badge or honor, much less an expectation.

This divide spans races and parts of the country.  Certainly there are examples of kids rising above this in spite of their parents and community, but those are far too rare.

Until our societal system changes the perception in those communities and demonstrate in a relatable way that an education and life beyond is preferable to their current situation, we will continue to have teachers and entire school systems bailing water and saving few while losing the masses to a self fulfilling prophecy.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Reagan1k

[Bevo 13596]

58 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I can’t say I was impressed with the aptitude of the elite prep school grads I encountered in undergrad. And I can’t say I was all that impressed in med school with the products of prep schools who went Ivy for undergrad. And I did my post grad training at an Ivy, and other than having nicer cars and apartments, they still didn’t stand out. 
 

Spend your money on whatever you like but you’re paying more for contacts than you are for education IMO

My kids are in public schools and I went to a public school. All I have said is that the education at the private schools you mentioned as well as the ones that I mentioned is superior to the education at public schools. Kids may not be as well adjusted and they may not be any brighter, but the education is superior. Some of my high school classmates have become billionaires and multimillionaires, so it may not mean a whole lot later in life. But, I would almost guarantee that St. Marks, St. Johns and Kinkaid kids on average scored higher on the SAT than kids from Westlake and Highland Park.

[Guest Lobo]

levity aside, that's impressive that multiple classmates of yours from high school  became billionaires.  

[Clintonaldo 2576]

17 minutes ago, Lobo said:

levity aside, that's impressive that multiple classmates of yours from high school  became billionaires.  

He could be setting us up for a humblebrag. I will be monitoring. 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Bevo said:

My kids are in public schools and I went to a public school. All I have said is that the education at the private schools you mentioned as well as the ones that I mentioned is superior to the education at public schools. Kids may not be as well adjusted and they may not be any brighter, but the education is superior. Some of my high school classmates have become billionaires and multimillionaires, so it may not mean a whole lot later in life. But, I would almost guarantee that St. Marks, St. Johns and Kinkaid kids on average scored higher on the SAT than kids from Westlake and Highland Park.

Does Alabama make players into NFL caliber or do they show up that way? Saban ain't winning shit next year if he's at New Mexico State.

 

It isn't necessarily a superior education if they never have to take all comers like the publics.  Of course their averages are going to be higher.  

The debate is whether the juice is necessarily worth the squeeze. You haven't convinced me.

Edited March 15, 2021 by slorch

[Sawbonz 27584]

23 minutes ago, Bevo said:

My kids are in public schools and I went to a public school. All I have said is that the education at the private schools you mentioned as well as the ones that I mentioned is superior to the education at public schools. Kids may not be as well adjusted and they may not be any brighter, but the education is superior. Some of my high school classmates have become billionaires and multimillionaires, so it may not mean a whole lot later in life. But, I would almost guarantee that St. Marks, St. Johns and Kinkaid kids on average scored higher on the SAT than kids from Westlake and Highland Park.

I’m looking at it as cost benefit analysis. I have no doubt the average SAT scores of the elite privates are higher than the average at the best publics. But I seriously doubt there is much difference at the very top. The best score of the top 5 at my shitty high school had 1600 and the worst of that bunch was over 1500. The incremental cost for those few extra points on the SAT seems crazy to me.

If your son is a LAX bro you want not to look completely ridiculous when he becomes a VP at your family company at 23, or your daughter will be majoring in MRS, that 300K for their pre-college education might well be worth it to get them into a school they have no business attending. Or if for whatever reason you really think an undergrad Ivy diploma is worth something, knock yourself out. 

[Brew 3049]

5 hours ago, Helobious said:

Graduated high school in 2012.

This explains so much.

[Sawbonz 27584]

8 minutes ago, slorch said:

Does Alabama make players into NFL caliber or do they show up that way?

I was going to make a select (pick your sport) analogy. You can get your average to a bit above average kid that juco scholarship if you’re willing to spend a shitload of money, but I doubt there are many folks out there who were a summer on a traveling team and a few falls of Saturday/Sunday tournaments away from the bigs. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Sawbonz

[clapclapclap 9000]

4 hours ago, Brothahorn said:

It's all about options. If you have the option for a good public school then take it. If your options are bad public schools or private, then private is obviously better. We lived HISD and North Forest ISD, so they were non starters for my mom. So she made sacrifices necessary. 

Same with me. When we decided to have kids, we moved from 5th ward to Humble for the schools. 

 

 

Nice Humble brag.

Edited March 15, 2021 by clapclapclap
(Silent H)

[Guest]

A-task-a-see-ya!!!

[Brew 3049]

8 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I’m looking at it as cost benefit analysis. I have no doubt the average SAT scores of the elite privates are higher than the average at the best publics. But I seriously doubt there is much difference at the very top. The best score of the top 5 at my shitty high school had 1600 and the worst of that bunch was over 1500. The incremental cost for those few extra points on the SAT seems crazy to me.

If your son is a LAX bro you want not to look completely ridiculous when he becomes a VP at your family company at 23, or your daughter will be majoring in MRS, that 300K for their pre-college education might well be worth it to get them into a school they have no business attending. Or if for whatever reason you really think an undergrad Ivy diploma is worth something, knock yourself out. 

The top kids are going to be the same across all the schools. Those kids would excel anywhere. The floor is generally higher at private schools, because the lower tier get lost in public schools typically where the smaller class sizes and tailored curriculums at the private can help bring them up. It also tends to be competitive which raises the floor.

I was 100% anti-private when we had kids. We moved to the best district in our area and when we toured the elementary school they had 11 K classes and 8 classrooms.  Classes rotated between meeting in the library, cafeteria, etc. We decided then to go private. My nephews are in that system now and I can 100% guarantee you they are 2 grades off from what they are studying versus what my kids are studying. They have compared books several times.

The other big differences, my kids have been in school every day this year. They have played sports, they have had musicals, etc all while staying as protected as can be. Also, the head of school and most of the teachers know each and every kid that are in the hallways. They know the parents and can make calls of their are issues. It is more a neighborhood school than anything else in town which is important to us. Not all school districts are equal, not all private schools are equal, but I happily write my two $12k checks each year and am comfortable in what that means versus what is going on in our local public schools. A solid public system is the backbone of the future of most smaller towns, right now it’s in a bad place locally.

[Helobious 9464]

 

[Nolacycling 893]

My school is Title 1, meaning that we are economically disadvantaged and provide breakfast, lunch, after-school snack and a big bag of frozen food to take home on weekends. 50% of the special ed meetings I attend have no parent make the choice to be there.They can participate by phone or Zoom, but don't. 

I feel like a cop-out saying this, but in retrospect I believe one of the biggest mistakes we made was eliminating the low-level classes. In the early 90's it was determined that  low level students were being left behind because of the nature of their classes. Probably true. So we eliminated low-level classes and placed them with the regular level kids. IMO those classes suffered as now teachers are dealing with additional behavioral issues and  working with the lowest common denominator theory. My own kids were medium-level students that didn't want to bust ass in the IB or AP or honors class, but suffered being in a room with students that couldn't read on a 4th grade level in hs. 

In the Bizarro World of education, Mrs. Smith who gets all the Starbucks coupons from her AP Physics students' parents @ xmas would be teaching remedial earth science. How long do you think that would last?

[tantric superman 4667]

In retrospect, the best approach is public high school that can field some good math and science classes, and then save the money you'd spend on private schools by having one parent, or both if possible, take the kids on fabulous and educational trips once they turn six.

Bruin, I would have just put more money into my boat and taken the kids across the blue pacific every summer. Plus, CA public schools always have a few good teachers and classes...

.

[workswithseed 2110]

8 hours ago, Helobious said:

I went to public school, every single one of those things happened. 

Sheeiit. Where did you live? North Lake? They didn't do that where I lived.

[gmr548 16606]

Kids may not be as well adjusted and they may not be any brighter, but the education is superior.

Huh?

[Bevo 13596]

10 hours ago, Lobo said:

levity aside, that's impressive that multiple classmates of yours from high school  became billionaires.  

Yes, it is. They also both play big roles at Texas.

[CHIEF 5094]

Something that was lost along the way, is the notion that "you want your kids to have a better life than you had". You don't have to be educated, or even that smart to realize that isn't going to happen unless you are involved with your child's education. Participation trophies have been the undoing of the competitiveness that makes children successful. "Just do your best" has replaced hard work, studying, and preparedness, and that won't cut it in a Global society where you have to compete with the other countries of the World. That's why you see immigrants from China, India, Africa, and the Middle East come to America and kick ass. Are they smarter? Probably not. But the parents are involved, and value education because they know that education will break the poverty cycle in the first generation.

CHIEF

[Bevo 13596]

9 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

The best score of the top 5 at my shitty high school had 1600 and the worst of that bunch was over 1500.

Maybe it was because I didn't excel in liberal arts, but it is pretty impressive to score 800 in English without the commensurate education.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Maybe it was because I didn't excel in liberal arts, but it is pretty impressive to score 800 in English without the commensurate education.

LOLz.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

10 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I’m looking at it as cost benefit analysis. I have no doubt the average SAT scores of the elite privates are higher than the average at the best publics. But I seriously doubt there is much difference at the very top. The best score of the top 5 at my shitty high school had 1600 and the worst of that bunch was over 1500. The incremental cost for those few extra points on the SAT seems crazy to me.

If your son is a LAX bro you want not to look completely ridiculous when he becomes a VP at your family company at 23, or your daughter will be majoring in MRS, that 300K for their pre-college education might well be worth it to get them into a school they have no business attending. Or if for whatever reason you really think an undergrad Ivy diploma is worth something, knock yourself out. 

I'm not sure I agree with higher average SAT scores. Elite/ the best public programs only take the highest achieving students based strictly on merit. (some)Privates will take students based on daddies dollars.

Head to head elite public to elite private there may be a slight private edge, but not much, and put them both in the same school, and I bet you don't see any difference academically.

[PassiveAggressiveCoach 118]

Our local schools are dog shit and perform well below even the shitty state avg in testing. My kids go to a great private school and are competing against great students pretty much across the board. Class size is smaller and they're just getting a better more disciplined education. I wish more people could afford sending their kids to other schools if they choose but their kids are just stuck in inferior schools with no options. I went to a public school. It was not a very good one at that. When I entered Texas I was definitely behind other students and my 1st year was a shock. I believe I will have my kids in a better position upon entering college than I was in. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by PassiveAggressiveCoach

[Bevo 13596]

42 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm not sure I agree with higher average SAT scores. Elite/ the best public programs only take the highest achieving students based strictly on merit. (some)Privates will take students based on daddies dollars.

Head to head elite public to elite private there may be a slight private edge, but not much, and put them both in the same school, and I bet you don't see any difference academically.

I don't think that is true. The private schools in Houston have entrance exams.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

15 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I don't think that is true. The private schools in Houston have entrance exams.

The best ones start in K or pre-school.  My kids are in a good Houston private.  My daughter started at age 2 and my son at age 3.

Kinkaid starts in pre-K.  St John's in K.  

And yes if you are wealthy, and especially a wealthy alum, it makes a difference.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Johnny Sack

[DonkeyCigars 143]

We started parenthood as idealistic parents. We did a Montessori preschool and then started the kids in a local elementary school which was supposed to be good but was very poor in our view, to a highly rated suburban public school where they were minorities to Asians and South Asians. Even still, there were some really crappy kids whose parents obviously didn't care and brought the entire experience to a sub-optimal level.

We have opted for private school for the last 5 years or so and it works for us. It's not perfect-- there is no perfect school situation I've found, it's one of those things where great can't be the enemy of good and you have to trust your parenting that your kids will manage well-- but to me it feels like if a household or parent has to cut a check for the education every year (or month) then there will be, in the worst case, a lip-service effort to pouring into the children at home and having them be disciplined and well-behaved, and in the best case, it indicates a dedicated effort of involvement and interest in the moral, spiritual, and academic development of that kid at home, which raises the bar for the other kids that they have to be in community with for 8 hours a day.

There is no silver bullet for education and reasonable adults can disagree on the best approach for their kids. I feel like it's a very personal decision for each individual.

[Sawbonz 27584]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

Maybe it was because I didn't excel in liberal arts, but it is pretty impressive to score 800 in English without the commensurate education.

Ever heard of begging the question?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

30 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I don't think that is true. The private schools in Houston have entrance exams.

Yeah, my comment was a bit blanket statement.  And every school is different. Most schools do have entrance exams.

Both our kids had to apply to the public school programs they ended up at 100 -200 slots with 1,000+ applications.  Those programs created kids who were basically second semester college freshman, and we're accepted at all the Ivy's,service academies, Berkley, Etc. and top schools in Va. (UVA, W&M, VT architecture, and engineering)

My comment was really meant to reflect my thoughts that smart, high achieving  kids are very successful regardless of the AP public or private programs ( for most public or private elite programs that is ).

The connections at the privates are a definite X factor however.

[Bevo 13596]

26 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

The best ones start in K or pre-school.  My kids are in a good Houston private.  My daughter started at age 2 and my son at age 3.

Kinkaid starts in pre-K.  St John's in K.  

And yes if you are wealthy, and especially a wealthy alum, it makes a difference.

I ended up going public, but when we moved into the area in 4th grade, Kinkaid had an entrance exam. And I think my brother told me that Emery Weiner had an exam also.

[gmr548 16606]

I don't think that is true. The private schools in Houston have entrance exams.

Yeah I mean I’ve never heard of academic admissions criteria getting bent for rich people who promise to donate, have you?

[huge 3795]

16 hours ago, Bevo said:

The top of the class at St. Marks probably weren't going to UT. UT is a fallback school for many upper tier top siders. 

I think you missed the point.

[Guest Lobo]

2 hours ago, Bevo said:

Yes, it is. They also both play big roles at Texas.

Well then I have to ask, where'd you go to high school? 

[Bevo 13596]

18 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Well then I have to ask, where'd you go to high school? 

Jeff Hildebrand and Michael Dell are the two billionaires.

[Bevo 13596]

30 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

Yeah I mean I’ve never heard of academic admissions criteria getting bent for rich people who promise to donate, have you?

Maybe I don't get it, but everyone who sends their kids to Kinkaid and St. Johns is rich. I don't think they care whether the parents are attorneys or doctors. I can see that a donation or being alumni would help, though.

[Guest Lobo]

Oh yeah, well I went to the same high school as German crooning sensation-David Hasselhoff (I had the same locker he did, 24 years later) and teenage White Supremacist Senation/Fine People at Charlottesville Riot Leader-Mr. Nick J. Fuentes. 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Lobo

[RDCanecutter 26466]

On 3/14/2021 at 8:15 AM, futureman said:

I mentioned to my sister once that too many people these days felt compelled to go to college and a good portion of them would be better served going to trade schools at 18. she recoiled as though I were professing my allegiance to the third reich. “everyone needs to go to college.”

I've taught a bunch of college kids, and at least a third of them didn't need to be there.

That said, I wouldn't have trusted any of them to rewire my house.

[Nolacycling 893]

7 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Maybe I don't get it, but everyone who sends their kids to Kinkaid and St. Johns is rich. I don't think they care whether the parents are attorneys or doctors. I can see that a donation or being alumni would help, though.

Or a U.S. Senator. The kind that visits Cancun during a pandemic.

[Bevo 13596]

2 minutes ago, Nolacycling said:

Or a U.S. Senator. The kind that visits Cancun during a pandemic.

I can't fault him too much. He was on the flight after mine.

[Larry T. Spider 1747]

These threads always crack me up. People take their educational experience from 40 years ago then mash it up with their political/racial views and spit out a theory on the entire educational system of the United States.

Ill be working on my bracket if you need me 😀

[TexasHooch 5137]

3 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

These threads always crack me up. People take their educational experience from 40 years ago then mash it up with their political/racial views and spit out a theory on the entire educational system of the United States.

Ill be working on my bracket if you need me 😀

Those brackets always crack me up.  People take their sports following experience from 20 years ago then mash it up with their regional/conference bias and spit out a theory on the entire hierarchy of basketball.