America is one of the most toxic places I've ever been

[Wanker Bob 379]

Stuff like this makes me happy I don't have a kid of my own and never want to do so. Raising my niece is challenging enough and I honestly think if I was going to have another one to start from scratch I'd look into moving us to another country. America is one of the most toxic places I've ever been. It's like you imported the worst of the British traits and over 240+ years have taken them to the max at every opportunity. An exhausting segment of the species. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by blacklab
moved from education thread since wanker won't shut the fuck up about how america sucks - blacklab

[Johnny Sack 8397]

14 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

Stuff like this makes me happy I don't have a kid of my own and never want to do so. Raising my niece is challenging enough and I honestly think if I was going to have another one to start from scratch I'd look into moving us to another country. America is one of the most toxic places I've ever been. It's like you imported the worst of the British traits and over 240+ years have taken them to the max at every opportunity. An exhausting segment of the species. 

Jesus shut the fuck up about America you Limey fuck.  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

On 3/15/2021 at 9:39 AM, Wanker Bob said:

Stuff like this makes me happy I don't have a kid of my own and never want to do so. Raising my niece is challenging enough and I honestly think if I was going to have another one to start from scratch I'd look into moving us to another country. America is one of the most toxic places I've ever been. It's like you imported the worst of the British traits and over 240+ years have taken them to the max at every opportunity. An exhausting segment of the species. 

Hey brah,  the easy thing to say is piss off and leave.  You're right about some of your comments, but we're a young nation still having growing pains. England is a much older country, and has many of the same issues, and you still haven't figured them out.

The toxicity you're referring to is from the fringes at both ends of the spectrum.

People want to come here from all over the world in greater numbers than anywhere else because upward mobility is easier to achieve here than most places.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[Wanker Bob 379]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Hey brah,  the easy thing to say is piss off and leave.  You're right about some of our comments, but we're a young nation still having growing pains. England is a much older country, and has many of the same issues, and you still haven't figured them out.

The toxicity you're referring to is from the fringes at both ends of the spectrum.

People want to come here from all over the world in greater numbers than anywhere else because upward mobility is easier to achieve here than most places.

You're still living off of 20th century pro-american propaganda my friend. Like in most metrics the US has been plummeting like a rock in social mobility in recent times. People come here from other countries either as political refugees because America is such a hodgepodge of cultures, or as the way the wealthy and privileged from other countries educate their children. Since amazingly the US still has very dominant high-end research University systems even if it's public education doesn't prepare 99% of the population for it. 

The biggest problem is Americans are still living off a false sense of superiority so the problems will never be fixed when they aren't even acknowledged. Again this speaks to the toxicity I've mentioned. 

https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-social-mobility-index-2020-why-economies-benefit-from-fixing-inequality

responsive_large_webp_EAsivHIDIyBlCZnhgbAxi2Uy9TynrGdjdw6B319qpKU.webp

Edited March 15, 2021 by Wanker Bob

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

You're still living off of 20th century pro-american propaganda my friend. Like in most metrics the US has been plummeting like a rock in social mobility in recent times. People come here from other countries either as political refugees because America is such a hodgepodge of cultures, or as the way the wealthy and privileged from other countries educate their children. Since amazingly the US still has very dominant high-end research University systems even if it's public education doesn't prepare 99% of the population for it. 

The biggest problem is Americans are still living off a false sense of superiority so the problems will never be fixed when they aren't even acknowledged. Again this speaks to the toxicity I've mentioned. 

https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-social-mobility-index-2020-why-economies-benefit-from-fixing-inequality

responsive_large_webp_EAsivHIDIyBlCZnhgbAxi2Uy9TynrGdjdw6B319qpKU.webp 17.43 kB · 1 download

Dealing the American guilt complex while acknowledging the incredible opportunity recognized by the rest of the world is rich AF.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

13 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

You're still living off of 20th century pro-american propaganda my friend. Like in most metrics the US has been plummeting like a rock in social mobility in recent times. People come here from other countries either as political refugees because America is such a hodgepodge of cultures, or as the way the wealthy and privileged from other countries educate their children. Since amazingly the US still has very dominant high-end research University systems even if it's public education doesn't prepare 99% of the population for it. 

The biggest problem is Americans are still living off a false sense of superiority so the problems will never be fixed when they aren't even acknowledged. Again this speaks to the toxicity I've mentioned. 

https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-social-mobility-index-2020-why-economies-benefit-from-fixing-inequality

responsive_large_webp_EAsivHIDIyBlCZnhgbAxi2Uy9TynrGdjdw6B319qpKU.webp 17.43 kB · 1 download

Well.... on that note, piss off wanker. 

[Wanker Bob 379]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

Dealing the American guilt complex while acknowledging the incredible opportunity recognized by the rest of the world is rich AF.

Oh there's opportunity all right for the rest of the world's rich who can afford to pay top end American universities to educate their kids. But for the rich there's opportunity in every country no matter where you go. 

Truth is the US used to be a good place for upward mobility and a high standard of living for the middle class but it's been passed up by most of the developed world over the last 40 years and its own citizens don't even realize it. Now that's rich

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

Oh there's opportunity all right for the rest of the world's rich who can afford to pay top end American universities to educate their kids. But for the rich there's opportunity in every country no matter where you go. 

Truth is the US used to be a good place for upward mobility and a high standard of living for the middle class but it's been passed up by most of the developed world over the last 40 years and its own citizens don't even realize it. Now that's rich

Weird.  Most everyone's wants to come here, except for you enlightened motherfuckers who hate it.  Yet, here you are stuck in the malaise that is today's America.

 

Nothing good.  Ever.  Zero optimism.  Hammer it home every chance you get... and then accuse others of propaganda.  SMDH.

 

ultimately wTF does your position have to do with public vs private schools?  Thank you for the contribution...

Edited March 15, 2021 by slorch

[deadshank 24653]

30 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

Oh there's opportunity all right for the rest of the world's rich who can afford to pay top end American universities to educate their kids. But for the rich there's opportunity in every country no matter where you go. 

Truth is the US used to be a good place for upward mobility and a high standard of living for the middle class but it's been passed up by most of the developed world over the last 40 years and its own citizens don't even realize it. Now that's rich

You’re full of baloney.   Peddle that crap somewhere else when you hit the road, Salt Bae boy.  

[Sawbonz 27779]

3 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

People come here from other countries either as political refugees because America is such a hodgepodge of cultures, or as the way the wealthy and privileged from other countries educate their children

Which were you?

[washparkhorn 9939]

5 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

Truth is the US used to be a good place for upward mobility and a high standard of living for the middle class but it's been passed up by most of the developed world over the last 40 years

Economic truth. The loss of upward mobility is a product of austerity programs initiated in the mid to late '70's and supercharged thereafter. Education remains a viable avenue for upward mobility. 

But this is not the proper thread/forum for this data point per the boss. Ergo, it isn't and I will not say another word on it here. Fair enough for me. I appreciate the clear messaging. 

[Wanker Bob 379]

4 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Which were you?

The second one. But after marrying into a family of the first one and seeing how shit on and disparaged that group is even if they're just as hard working and dedicated it illuminated the magnitude of disparity. 

All of you natives should be itching to flay whoever necessary to get that changed in the other direction but instead it's much easier to just put your head in the sand and pretend you're great while the world passes you by. But that's all I'll say on this

[B00M 6582]

[Sawbonz 27779]

13 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

The second one. But after marrying into a family of the first one and seeing how shit on and disparaged that group is even if they're just as hard working and dedicated it illuminated the magnitude of disparity. 

All of you natives should be itching to flay whoever necessary to get that changed in the other direction but instead it's much easier to just put your head in the sand and pretend you're great while the world passes you by. But that's all I'll say on this

When I think GB and EU countries the first thing I think of is how welcoming their subjects/citizens are to refugees

[Johnny Sack 8397]

9 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

When I think GB and EU countries the first thing I think of is how welcoming their subjects/citizens are to refugees

I laughed

[Wanker Bob 379]

4 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

When I think GB and EU countries the first thing I think of is how welcoming their subjects/citizens are to refugees

Those countries don't have boastful proclamations on their monuments like this: 

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Most of the European nations also have far better upward mobility than the US current day even though the US used to be at or near the top of the list. 

If Americans want to be okay with their rapid decline in these areas then that's fine but for God's sakes shut up with the "land of the free, land of opportunity, greatest country on Earth" bullshit. Because at this point in the 21st century it's all just bullshit

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

5 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

Those countries don't have boastful proclamations on their monuments like this: 

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Most of the European nations also have far better upward mobility than the US current day even though the US used to be at or near the top of the list. 

If Americans want to be okay with their rapid decline in these areas then that's fine but for God's sakes shut up with the "land of the free, land of opportunity, greatest country on Earth" bullshit. Because at this point in the 21st century it's all just bullshit

 I just listened to an NPR report that said EU millenials were leaving in droves for the US as it's an easier process to start up a company. They further a stated upward mobility was not keeping pace with the US.

The huge bureaucracy of red tape in the EU was seen as a factor that kept upward mobility stymied.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[Hawndoh 2400]

You know what isn't toxic at all and full of reasonable not-racist people? UK and EU football stadiums.

 

[Guest Lobo]

 

[blacklab 11994]

24 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

Those countries don't have boastful proclamations on their monuments like this: 

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Most of the European nations also have far better upward mobility than the US current day even though the US used to be at or near the top of the list. 

If Americans want to be okay with their rapid decline in these areas then that's fine but for God's sakes shut up with the "land of the free, land of opportunity, greatest country on Earth" bullshit. Because at this point in the 21st century it's all just bullshit

A poem written in 1883 is your basis for saying we currently boast about our opportunities?

[Etexhorn13 3054]

Between your threadshitting on the football board and your apparent disdain for all things Texas, what the fuck are you still doing here?

[SimonBolivar 10961]

13 minutes ago, blacklab said:

A poem written in 1883 is your basis for saying we currently boast about our opportunities?

I'd argue that we're just about as immigrant friendly as we've been in our history from a public polling standpoint. Sure there are some Know Nothings out there, but they're on the fringe.

[Sawbonz 27779]

42 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

Those countries don't have boastful proclamations on their monuments like this: 

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Most of the European nations also have far better upward mobility than the US current day even though the US used to be at or near the top of the list. 

If Americans want to be okay with their rapid decline in these areas then that's fine but for God's sakes shut up with the "land of the free, land of opportunity, greatest country on Earth" bullshit. Because at this point in the 21st century it's all just bullshit

 Why don’t you do a little research and post us a list of countries ranked  in order of number of first generation millionaires?

[EuroHorn 3276]

There’s a reason we told your relatives to get the fuck out...

Edited March 16, 2021 by EuroHorn

[Sawbonz 27779]

19 minutes ago, Etexhorn13 said:

Between your threadshitting on the football board and your apparent disdain for all things Texas, what the fuck are you still doing here?

I’m not sure why he’s on this board, but clearly he still in the US because England won’t take him back

[TwiceHorn 31685]

I think a lot of our mobility has shifted upward. Lots of opportunity for the upper second and lower third quartiles to move into the  fourth.  And those groups are probably only a generation or two from lower second or upper first quartiles.

It's harder than ever to move out of the lowest quartile.

[DaysOff 8005]

Don't UK my Texas.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

Goddammit, I have the cloak room blocked for a reason.  

[Guest]

Edited March 16, 2021 by slorch

[Brisketexan 105575]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think a lot of our mobility has shifted upward. Lots of opportunity for the upper second and lower third quartiles to move into the  fourth.  And those groups are probably only a generation or two from lower second or upper first quartiles.

It's harder than ever to move out of the lowest quartile.

This.  Now that this is its own thread.....maybe the biggest problem America has is that we love to sniff our own farts and talk about our glory days as if they define us today.  We are Al Bundy. constantly crowing about our four touchdowns in one game....

......yet we fail to realize that we've become THIS Al Bundy:

 

The Land of Opportunity, the American Dream, the "American Exceptionalism" that we actually had from WWII to around the mid 1970s......that shit is GONE.  If you look at our general economic opportunity and mobility over the past generation or so, we're just another stagnant western democracy.  Worse than others in many respects, better in some.  The primary reasons why we are a "magnet" for people from other countries is 1) proximity (if you're living a nightmare in Honduras, the closest "non-nightmare" country is the US), and 2) vestiges of our formerly friendly immigration and asylum policies.  We WERE a magnet for immigrants for a long time -- in ye olde days, because we were a big-ass empty country that didn't give a fuck who came here, and then went nativist for a while, and then went gung-ho post war, being especially friendly to refugees from communist countries.  But that approach is fading fast.

When I think of where I want my kids to make their lives, there's no particularly compelling reason that the US stands above other western nations.  There are things I like in the US vs. Germany, for example (seriously, it's a BITCH to get a fishing license in Germany -- that sucks).  But there are things I like in Germany vs. the US (much better gov't approach to the general welfare).  Both of them have their own species of racism problems (good old American racism, vs. the fact that the gotdamn Nazis never went all the way away....they just kept quiet for a few decades until they could come back as AfD; the UK is racist AF as well).  But it means that it comes down to a list of differing pros and cons. 

There is no clear "this country is EASILY the GREATEST IN THE WORLD!" winner, even though we crow that incessantly.  Believing our own bullshit is the biggest obstacle to any effort at improvement.  I think we WERE that country (again, not without some serious-ass warts -- ask all the people we bombed the fuck out of for decades, and our civil rights struggle sure put our ugly side on display).  And I think we actually have an inherent spirit and ability to achieve that CAN lead us to being exceptional (we went to the fucking moon, motherfuckers).  But when our response to any notion of "so....this thing about us isn't great....we should work on that" is "fuck you!  Love it or leave it, GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!", self-improvement is actually an enemy that we fight against instead of an opportunity we embrace.

Let's stop crowing about the four touchdowns we scored in one game back in 1945.  Let's work on getting back in shape so we can at least compete in the adult flag football league, instead of sitting on the couch in our dirty shirt with our hand down our pants (I mean, that's my lecture for Y'ALL....I'm totally gonna spend my days on the couch, hand down my pants.  Because that's awesome).

[C-Man 27351]

[Radical Larry 28673]

[clapclapclap 9000]

Toxic Shock Syndrome?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Damn brisket, So you're  just a wanker bob sock ?

 

you'd make a helluva welcome wagon committee member or local chamber of commerce  representative .

[Rockwell Torrey 1328]

On 3/15/2021 at 10:39 PM, Wanker Bob said:

Stuff like this makes me happy I don't have a kid of my own and never want to do so. Raising my niece is challenging enough and I honestly think if I was going to have another one to start from scratch I'd look into moving us to another country. America is one of the most toxic places I've ever been. It's like you imported the worst of the British traits and over 240+ years have taken them to the max at every opportunity. An exhausting segment of the species. 

Then move out of Ohio you fucking wanker.

[Brisketexan 105575]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Damn brisket, So you're  just a wanker bob sock ?

 

you'd make a helluva welcome wagon committee member or local chamber of commerce  representative .

wanker.

sock.

 

Heh heh.  Cool.

 

And no, I'm just realistic about the fact that our farts stink, and we have much room for improvement, and our reflexive flag-waving shallow patriotism response to any suggestion that maybe we've got some shit we should work on is slowly killing us.  And I'd much prefer it not kill us.  I'd rather we acknowledge the truth -- to go with the Al metaphor, we've gotten soft, our economic prospects ain't as great as they once were, and we probably need to work on some self-improvement things to get ourselves back where we'd like to be.  We used to educate people at a first-class university for tuition that could be fully paid by working a 20 hr a week job.  Today, that same degree requires that you work 56 hours a week to pay for it (so, you can't pay for it).  As just one example of how we ain't the America of our glory days.

But our response is "why would you ever want to improve on the guy who scored four touchdowns in one game?!?!?!?!"  So we just fall further and further behind.

[DaysOff 8005]

Brisket's kids could move to Canada whilst they wait for American scientists to create pandemic vaccines.

[Brisketexan 105575]

Just now, DaysOff said:

Brisket's kids could move to Canada whilst they wait for German scientists to create pandemic vaccines.

FIF Pfizer.  Could also fix it for the UK, FIFOxford.  We aren't the only country in the world cranking out vaccines.

[Samson's Wig 3195]

Well he's not wrong about the Canada part.  My 80 something in-laws are still waiting around and hoping for a shot.  But yeah, America isn't the only ones developing vaccines.  We are the country paying for most of it, in one way or another.

My kids are growing up in Texas, but are dual citizens and can move to Canada for university or work once they're adults.  I'm interested to see where life takes them.  I honestly couldn't say which nation I think will be a more appealing place to work and live in twenty years.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Samson's Wig

[RDCanecutter 26552]

Just now, Samson's Wig said:

Well he's not wrong about the Canada part.  My 80 something in-laws are still politely waiting around and hoping for a shot.

sorry sorry

[ztejas 43744]

12 minutes ago, Rockwell Torrey said:

Then move out of Ohio you fucking wanker.

Wait... he lives in Ohio? That explains a lot.

[Sawbonz 27779]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

FIF Pfizer.  Could also fix it for the UK, FIFOxford.  We aren't the only country in the world cranking out vaccines.

Haven’t been paying attention to AstraZeneca I take it

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

wanker.

sock.

 

Heh heh.  Cool.

 

And no, I'm just realistic about the fact that our farts stink, and we have much room for improvement, and our reflexive flag-waving shallow patriotism response to any suggestion that maybe we've got some shit we should work on is slowly killing us.  And I'd much prefer it not kill us.  I'd rather we acknowledge the truth -- to go with the Al metaphor, we've gotten soft, our economic prospects ain't as great as they once were, and we probably need to work on some self-improvement things to get ourselves back where we'd like to be.  We used to educate people at a first-class university for tuition that could be fully paid by working a 20 hr a week job.  Today, that same degree requires that you work 56 hours a week to pay for it (so, you can't pay for it).  As just one example of how we ain't the America of our glory days.

But our response is "why would you ever want to improve on the guy who scored four touchdowns in one game?!?!?!?!"  So we just fall further and further behind.

You're not realistic, you're also clinically depressed I think, and you're just wrong. Opportunity in this country exists for MOST people who put the effort in. Your results may vary. 

Try starting a company in the EU. It's a shit show of regulatory, red tape that's driven many of its younger people here because it is so much easier to establish a company, and grow it.

The American dream is not dead, it's having growing pains, and it's a shifting, changing dream as well, but it's still there for those who work their asses off to achieve it.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[Guest Lobo]

Did he really move from England to Ohio?  Did he feel bad when he killed Mel Gibson's son in 'The Patriot'? 

[Sawbonz 27779]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

wanker.

sock.

 

Heh heh.  Cool.

 

And no, I'm just realistic about the fact that our farts stink, and we have much room for improvement, and our reflexive flag-waving shallow patriotism response to any suggestion that maybe we've got some shit we should work on is slowly killing us.  And I'd much prefer it not kill us.  I'd rather we acknowledge the truth -- to go with the Al metaphor, we've gotten soft, our economic prospects ain't as great as they once were, and we probably need to work on some self-improvement things to get ourselves back where we'd like to be.  We used to educate people at a first-class university for tuition that could be fully paid by working a 20 hr a week job.  Today, that same degree requires that you work 56 hours a week to pay for it (so, you can't pay for it).  As just one example of how we ain't the America of our glory days.

But our response is "why would you ever want to improve on the guy who scored four touchdowns in one game?!?!?!?!"  So we just fall further and further behind.

Which of the countries that you would prefer to the US would take you were you not solidly upper middle class? And how exactly did you reach upper middle class status?

[Brisketexan 105575]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

You're not realistic, you're also clinically depressed I think, and you're just wrong. Opportunity in this country exists for MOST people who put the effort in. Your results may vary. 

Try starting a company in the EU. It's a shit show of regulatory, red tape that's driven many of its younger people here because it is so much easier to establish a company, and grow it.

 

The American area is not dead, it's having growing pains, and it's a shifting, changing dream as well, but it's still there for those who work theor asses off to achieve it.

Meh, not overly depressed about our state.  I just realize we're not the guy who scored 4 TDs in a game anymore.  We still have stuff going for us, just not the way we used to (see how much higher a hill an 18 yr old has to climb to get a degree).

And when it comes to entrepeneurship, America does probably have an advantage.  When it comes to "opportunity to work a regular job and have a stable and good life," plenty of western Europe has us beat.

But even as to the entrepeneurship.....America is plenty harsh.  Your odds of living a good and comfortable life are higher in much of western Europe than they are here.  Your odds of being stuck in poverty are higher here....as are your odds of making $100 million on your business.  We have higher scores at the margins, lower scores at the middle, versus many of our rival nations.  We used to have higher scores in the middle.  It's actually one of the things that made us strong.

Yes, statistically, any one person can make it big.  But the ODDS, overall, particularly of having a good and comfortable life, have gone down.  We should look at the simple facts and data and acknowledge that.  And maybe, you know, work on improving it.

[Brisketexan 105575]

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Which of the countries that you would prefer to the US would take you were you not solidly upper middle class? And how exactly did you reach upper middle class status?

Would take me today?  Not many.  If I was born in, would I have easily made it to upper middle class?  Most all of them.

How did I reach upper middle class here?  Pretty simple recipe: 1) parents who had the means to send me to private preparatory school and 2) able to attend a first class university for cheap.  So, I benefited from 1) my parents financial success, and 2) a state gov't that offered an affordable education.  Take those away, and who the fuck knows how well I would have done?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Meh, not overly depressed about our state.  I just realize we're not the guy who scored 4 TDs in a game anymore.  We still have stuff going for us, just not the way we used to (see how much higher a hill an 18 yr old has to climb to get a degree).

And when it comes to entrepeneurship, America does probably have an advantage.  When it comes to "opportunity to work a regular job and have a stable and good life," plenty of western Europe has us beat.

But even as to the entrepeneurship.....America is plenty harsh.  Your odds of living a good and comfortable life are higher in much of western Europe than they are here.  Your odds of being stuck in poverty are higher here....as are your odds of making $100 million on your business.  We have higher scores at the margins, lower scores at the middle, versus many of our rival nations.  We used to have higher scores in the middle.  It's actually one of the things that made us strong.

Yes, statistically, any one person can make it big.  But the ODDS, overall, particularly of having a good and comfortable life, have gone down.  We should look at the simple facts and data and acknowledge that.  And maybe, you know, work on improving it.

We did have a bit of a leg up on the rest of the world.. you remember that little thing called WWII ?  The rest of the world is just catching up now 50-60 years later. England didn't pay off its war time debt to the US until 2006.  

[Sawbonz 27779]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Would take me today?  Not many.  If I was born in, would I have easily made it to upper middle class?  Most all of them.

How did I reach upper middle class here?  Pretty simple recipe: 1) parents who had the means to send me to private preparatory school and 2) able to attend a first class university for cheap.  So, I benefited from 1) my parents financial success, and 2) a state gov't that offered an affordable education.  Take those away, and who the fuck knows how well I would have done?

What would have been your path to upper middle class had you been born in England? Surely not law

[Brisketexan 105575]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

We did have a bit of a leg up on the rest of the world.. you remember that little thing called WWII ?  The rest of the world is just catching up now 50-60 years later. England didn't pay off its war time debt to the US until 2006.  

Oh, agree totally.  Thus my point about smelling our own farts.  We were blessed by geography and chance in WWII, and it put us WAY ahead of the rest of the world.  We had a huge manufacturing system already set up (and importantly, not blown all to hell) when the war ended.  Who ELSE was gonna make all the cars then?  We had some good fortune, that we definitely capitalized on, to our credit.  But still....we've let that opportunity decline, to the point where the separation that used to exist isn't really there anymore.

It's not a sin to acknowledge and realize that.  It's realistic.