America is one of the most toxic places I've ever been

[Brisketexan 105571]

Just now, Sawbonz said:

What would have been your path to upper middle class had you been born in England? Surely not law

I'd have become a very creative soccer hooligan. 

[Brisketexan 105571]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I'd have become a very creative soccer hooligan. 

Alternatively a monger of one sort.  Cheesemonger.  Fishmonger.  Always thought mongering sounded cool.

[baboso 6057]

Feel free to start your own country, with our blessings.

[Sawbonz 27777]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Alternatively a monger of one sort.  Cheesemonger.  Fishmonger.  Always thought mongering sounded cool.

You left off the best one — whoremonger

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, agree totally.  Thus my point about smelling our own farts.  We were blessed by geography and chance in WWII, and it put us WAY ahead of the rest of the world.  We had a huge manufacturing system already set up (and importantly, not blown all to hell) when the war ended.  Who ELSE was gonna make all the cars then?  We had some good fortune, that we definitely capitalized on, to our credit.  But still....we've let that opportunity decline, to the point where the separation that used to exist isn't really there anymore.

It's not a sin to acknowledge and realize that.  It's realistic.

If it's decling it's because we /(our gov't) has allowed things to sink to the lowest common denominator in so many areas.( SEE: Public educational systems). 

[Captainant 27972]

11 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If it's decling it's because we /(our gov't) has allowed things to sink to the lowest common denominator in so many areas.( SEE: Public educational systems). 

Some might point to the systematic dismantling of social support programs in the post-civil rights era of US government coupled with rampant deregulation as the instigating factor of things sinking to the lowest common denominator. Businesses (in general) don't build for long-term longevity anymore, they build for growth quarter over quarter at any cost. Income stagnation relative to inflation is another pretty severe anchor on any society as well.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Captainant

[Brisketexan 105571]

6 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If it's decling it's because we /(our gov't) has allowed things to sink to the lowest common denominator in so many areas.( SEE: Public educational systems). 

And because we've skewed the game in complete favor of the people at the top to skim money at every level of the economy, to the detriment of everyone else.  Again, see my example of what has happened to college tuition, with a degree being a key to entering the upper middle class.  We should fix that.  We should fix a lot of things that fall similarly.  

Just look at the mobility numbers -- top 5%, great.  Everyone else?  Not great.  That's not because we have some morons at Lickskillet Elementary.  It's because of how we've purposefully crafted our society and economy over the last 30-40 years.

[BabaYaga 15372]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We aren't the only country in the world cranking out vaccines.

Of course.  But we also need to remember that the US, on average out produced the entirely of the EU in terms of medical research and innovation by a ratio of 13:1 each year and accounts for close to 40% of the worlds innovation.  

[Sawbonz 27777]

I was the first person in my family on my mom’s side to finish high school. She went to work after 9th grade. Her mom “graduated“ but the Indian school she went to in Oklahoma only went to 8th grade. Her dad had to quit school after 4th grade because he was physically mature enough to help his parents and older siblings pick cotton. I honestly don’t know of another country where I could be where I am now from that background

That kind of mobility is definitely not as easy these days but it’s not impossible. Kids are coming out of public schools with an associate’s degree worth of college credits, and if they are savvy about what they want to do and where they are willing to go they can get the rest of their bachelor’s requirements fairly cheaply. That’s not even counting taking advantage of the military (I think there should be a civil service equivalent of the GI bill but that’s a separate topic)

We definitely have a lot of work to do to make things more equitable, but I wouldn’t live anywhere else. Actually I would consider retiring somewhere else. Even if I did want to move abroad for work, most places I would consider living make it harder for me to work there than America makes it for physicians coming here. 

[washparkhorn 9939]

[BabaYaga 15372]

25 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

You left off the best one — whoremonger

Or around here, fearmonger.....

[workswithseed 2139]

2 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

 

[Brisketexan 105571]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

I was the first person in my family on my mom’s side to finish high school. She went to work after 9th grade. Her mom “graduated“ but the Indian school she went to in Oklahoma only went to 8th grade. Her dad had to quit school after 4th grade because he was physically mature enough to help his parents and older siblings pick cotton. I honestly don’t know of another country where I could be where I am now from that background

That kind of mobility is definitely not as easy these days but it’s not impossible. Kids are coming out of public schools with an associate’s degree worth of college credits, and if they are savvy about what they want to do and where they are willing to go they can get the rest of their bachelor’s requirements fairly cheaply. That’s not even counting taking advantage of the military (I think there should be a civil service equivalent of the GI bill but that’s a separate topic)

We definitely have a lot of work to do to make things more equitable, but I wouldn’t live anywhere else. Actually I would consider retiring somewhere else. Even if I did want to move abroad for work, most places I would consider living make it harder for me to work there than America makes it for physicians coming here. 

Your first bold statement -- actually true to some degree for many of us.  My mother was a child of abusive parents, was on gov't assistance.  My dad went to college solely because he had a teacher in his little border town who convinced some kids that yes, they could do this thing.  BUT.....I do want you to look back at timeframe.  My parents, and you and me, we're products of a time when college etc. was much more affordable and accessible.  Which gets to the second bolded statement....

Which is true.  And that's a key issue.  My dad, a nobody from a TX border town, was able to get a degree from a first class university for pennies.  As was I.  My kids....are not.  College is much pricier and less accessible these days (as just one example of the ladder being pulled up and made harder).  It's not IMPOSSIBLE....but it's harder.  The same kid who would have graduated from UT in 1990 with no debt now graduates with $50k or more in debt, having worked the same part-time job, etc.  That puts him behind from the beginning.

Your last bolded statement is the foundation of my entire point.  We're still a good place to pursue opportunity - we're not a hellscape.  But we're not the clearly exceptional place we once were.  And other places have come far.  For example, I would almost certainly NOT have become a barrister in the UK in the early 1990s -- the structure was still too class-based, and not merit-based, for me to have had a chance.  But that's one way that the UK has actually made progress -- today, a guy like me actually would have a decent shot at doing so.  They UK has made some progress at breaking through old class barriers (not nearly enough, mind you -- the UK classist mentality still disgusts me, and is still way too prevalent in many facets of their society).

We had a run as an exceptional country.  Other comparable nations had to play catch-up (mostly as a result of WWII).  We rested on our laurels while they played catch-up....and now, we're a lot more evenly matched.  We can and should do better.

[B00M 6576]

This thread really is brisket's wheelhouse: emotion, words, doom, zany analogies, hypotheticals, so many words. Any debatable facts? Maybe? Has Hitler been mentioned yet? It's great because we can all be sad and mad and be here for hours and not learn a thing except Brisket types fast. Thanks Bob.

[EuroHorn 3276]

America sucks!  It’s too crowded and people are lined up at the border waiting to get in. 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8916]

Well. This backfired. And the UK doesn’t have this guy on their team

[phdhorn 6224]

We kicked their asses in the Revolution.

We saved their asses in two world wars.

(Brits especially love when we say that last one).

Looks like someone has a case of the "We can't live without America" Mondays.

Anyway, other than this, OP was entertaining and funny, unlike a lot of British comedy.

Edited March 16, 2021 by phdhorn

[ztejas 43741]

 

[Brisketexan 105571]

5 minutes ago, B00M said:

This thread really is brisket's wheelhouse: emotion, words, doom, zany analogies, hypotheticals, so many words. Any debatable facts? Maybe? Has Hitler been mentioned yet? It's great because we can all be sad and mad and be here for hours and not learn a thing except Brisket types fast. Thanks Bob.

Hitler definitely goes in the "negative" column for Germany.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Meh, not overly depressed about our state.  I just realize we're not the guy who scored 4 TDs in a game anymore.  We still have stuff going for us, just not the way we used to (see how much higher a hill an 18 yr old has to climb to get a degree).

And when it comes to entrepeneurship, America does probably have an advantage.  When it comes to "opportunity to work a regular job and have a stable and good life," plenty of western Europe has us beat.

But even as to the entrepeneurship.....America is plenty harsh.  Your odds of living a good and comfortable life are higher in much of western Europe than they are here.  Your odds of being stuck in poverty are higher here....as are your odds of making $100 million on your business.  We have higher scores at the margins, lower scores at the middle, versus many of our rival nations.  We used to have higher scores in the middle.  It's actually one of the things that made us strong.

Yes, statistically, any one person can make it big.  But the ODDS, overall, particularly of having a good and comfortable life, have gone down.  We should look at the simple facts and data and acknowledge that.  And maybe, you know, work on improving it.

for your football analogy, America is Michael Irvin right now.  We badass on gameday.  We badass even on practice.  But when we deviate from football( being what got us here,) we are bottom of the barrel decision makers.

[Pato del Muerto 52866]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

What would have been your path to upper middle class had you been born in England? Surely not law

Churro cart

Edited March 16, 2021 by Pato del Muerto
Kept reading - churromonger

[Jerry Callo 8830]

1 hour ago, Liquor and Poker said:

Goddammit, I have the cloak room blocked for a reason.  

Agreed.  I like just about everyone on the board - until I wander in the the CR, then I can't stand virtually anyone.

[washparkhorn 9939]

[Sawbonz 27777]

1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Churro cart

That would be like printing money

[GringoSalado 1652]

Our poors have bigger TVs and more cars than your poors.

 

See you next Tuesday.

[Brisketexan 105571]

6 minutes ago, slorch said:

for your football analogy, America is Michael Irvin right now.  We badass on gameday.  We badass even on practice.  But when we deviate from football( being what got us here,) we are bottom of the barrel decision makers.

I mean....kinda yeah.....

 

Dinner plates of cocaine and all that.....we DO know how to party here in 'murica.

 

[fattyflattie 4639]

28 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The same kid who would have graduated from UT in 1990 with no debt now graduates with $50k or more in debt, having worked the same part-time job, etc.  That puts him behind from the beginning.

The same kids aren’t attending.  The same kids that were able to attend in 2000 can’t get in now, and it doesn’t have shit to do with how much it costs.  So of course getting a “first class” education isn’t as simple as it was. But here’s the deal, you move to any big city (and some small ones)  and you can make 150k with a second or third class college education.    You don’t have that opportunity in terrible countries. 
 

also LOL at this prick moving to Ohio then telling us how much America sucks.  It’s not all Cleveland, Detroit, and Bakersfield.  Have a look around. 

[Pato del Muerto 52866]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

The same kids aren’t attending.  The same kids that were able to attend in 2000 can’t get in now, and it doesn’t have shit to do with how much it costs.  So of course getting a “first class” education isn’t as simple as it was. But here’s the deal, you move to any big city (and some small ones)  and you can make 150k with a second or third class college education.    You don’t have that opportunity in terrible countries. 
 

also LOL at this prick moving to Ohio then telling us how much America sucks.  It’s not all Cleveland, Detroit, and Bakersfield.  Have a look around. 

You cannot make 150k with many degrees from many universities. I have a bachelors from UT in a STEM discipline and over a decade of experience and I’ll be at half that with the next job I take, which is looking like it will be in Austin. 

[Brisketexan 105571]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

The same kids aren’t attending.  The same kids that were able to attend in 2000 can’t get in now, and it doesn’t have shit to do with how much it costs.  So of course getting a “first class” education isn’t as simple as it was. But here’s the deal, you move to any big city (and some small ones)  and you can make 150k with a second or third class college education.    You don’t have that opportunity in terrible countries. 
 

also LOL at this prick moving to Ohio then telling us how much America sucks.  It’s not all Cleveland, Detroit, and Bakersfield.  Have a look around. 

I mean.....it's also Brownfield, and Vidor.  So.....yeah.

But yes, there are a shitload of places in the US that have a great quality of life, and present lots of opportunity (our loss of mobility is an odd thing, as a side note.  last century, if shit sucked in Bentdick WV, or AL, or OH.....people GTFO and went where the opportunity was.  It's why California's population exploded, same with Texas and even Florida to a degree.  But today.....your coal mining job went away, and instead of packing up your shit and heading to Houston where there's plenty of work....you stay in WV and sink further into the pit.  That's killing us, too.)

[clapclapclap 9000]

55 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

The same kids aren’t attending.  The same kids that were able to attend in 2000 can’t get in now, and it doesn’t have shit to do with how much it costs.  So of course getting a “first class” education isn’t as simple as it was. But here’s the deal, you move to any big city (and some small ones)  and you can make 150k with a second or third class college education.    You don’t have that opportunity in terrible countries. 

also LOL at this prick moving to Ohio then telling us how much America sucks.  It’s not all Cleveland, Detroit, and Bakersfield.  Have a look around. 

Where did the Ohio angle come from?  I'm pretty sure I read him complaining about power outages in Denton County during our recent Dickensian winter.  Perhaps the slums of Trophy Club or Argyle have coloured his impression of the wayward colonies.

Edited March 16, 2021 by clapclapclap

[Neonmoon 38130]

America is the same as other “western” democracies. It’s not worse, but it sure as shit ain’t better. There are pros, there are cons. Most people on here, including myself have never lived in another country to really provide a meaningful different perspective. But by all means, let’s emote about for 20 more pages. Fuck it, I’m in. 

[Captainant 27972]

39 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

The same kids aren’t attending.  The same kids that were able to attend in 2000 can’t get in now, and it doesn’t have shit to do with how much it costs.  So of course getting a “first class” education isn’t as simple as it was. But here’s the deal, you move to any big city (and some small ones)  and you can make 150k with a second or third class college education.    You don’t have that opportunity in terrible countries. 
 

also LOL at this prick moving to Ohio then telling us how much America sucks.  It’s not all Cleveland, Detroit, and Bakersfield.  Have a look around. 

C'mon man, really? I have a BS in Comp Sci from UT and maybe the top earners from my class are at the 150k+ mark, but far and wide it's in the 80s-90s, with five years of experience. And that's with one of the highest earning bachelor's degrees at the University. 

Most the country isn't Cleveland or Detroit, it's mostly (by sqft) small shitty towns with a dying community and no future for the people who are too poor to leave because the plant got shut down and the jobs got outsourced. 

I'm extremely fortunate and my wife and I have a home, two cars, and savings for an emergency - and we're both under 30. But that's the exception. And our student debt service payments are an extra mortgage payment each month. 

[Incredulity 11686]

1 hour ago, B00M said:

This thread really is brisket's wheelhouse: emotion, words, doom, zany analogies, hypotheticals, so many words. Any debatable facts? Maybe? Has Hitler been mentioned yet? It's great because we can all be sad and mad and be here for hours and not learn a thing except Brisket types fast. Thanks Bob.

You forgot

 

CAPITALIZATION

 

[washparkhorn 9939]

[Incredulity 11686]

19 minutes ago, Captainant said:

C'mon man, really? I have a BS in Comp Sci from UT and maybe the top earners from my class are at the 150k+ mark, but far and wide it's in the 80s-90s, with five years of experience. And that's with one of the highest earning bachelor's degrees at the University. 

Most the country isn't Cleveland or Detroit, it's mostly (by sqft) small shitty towns with a dying community and no future for the people who are too poor to leave because the plant got shut down and the jobs got outsourced. 

I'm extremely fortunate and my wife and I have a home, two cars, and savings for an emergency - and we're both under 30. But that's the exception. And our student debt service payments are an extra mortgage payment each month. 

Congratulations.

You’re a failure 

[fattyflattie 4639]

55 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But today.....your coal mining job went away, and instead of packing up your shit and heading to Houston where there's plenty of work....you stay in WV and sink further into the pit.  That's killing us, too.)

Sometimes you lose your job in Houston, and pack your shit for WV. Hits really close to home and all that. 
 

13 minutes ago, Captainant said:

C'mon man, really? I have a BS in Comp Sci from UT and maybe the top earners from my class are at the 150k+ mark, but far and wide it's in the 80s-90s, with five years of experience. And that's with one of the highest earning bachelor's degrees at the University.

Sorry, my experience is limited to O&G and heavy lift/heavy transport.   Both were well into six figure jobs ~5 years out of college (before bonus).  Caveat, you have to live in Houston in lieu of Austin.   By 7 years in if you weren’t salaried around 130-150 you weren’t trying all that hard.  That’s without a “first class” degree from a “first class” school.   It’s not uncommon at all to be quite a bit above those #’s before bonus.   Please don’t take this a Rocko check stub thing, as I was behind the 8 ball a bit from my peers because of lesser degree and school.  You can do even better with a state school engineering degree.  

Most of the people that didn’t make it with one of the majors are consulting now, including myself until about 6 months ago. If you really want to know about that, PM me.  I suggest if you ever have the chance, you jump all over it.  
 

 

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

which is looking like it will be in Austin. 

I think that is a big part of it.  I have a peer (on this site) that has been trying to move up there for years and couldn’t replicate the $$.  And in the cost to maintain same living conditions and nearly impossible. 

 

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean.....it's also Brownfield, and Vidor.  So.....yeah.

 

If it wasn’t for the incredible amount of racism (though lessening? They held a BLM rally that wasn’t a trap) Vidor would be good for someone who likes the outdoors and doesn’t like big city living.  Sam Rayburn, Sea Rim, Houston, and Lake Chuck all within 90 minutes.  You can make a good living all up and down the coast. 

[Brisketexan 105571]

2 hours ago, baboso said:

Feel free to start your own country, with our blessings.

I would make sure that said country focused heavily on hooliganism.  And mongering of all sorts.

Also, I would make serving peach cobbler WITHOUT ice cream on top a death penalty offense.  Cobbler comes with ice cream.  It's part of the dessert.

I also have thoughts on red beans and rice WITHOUT some sort of smoked pork product (sausage, hocks, etc.).  Our constitution would read a bit oddly, but this is important stuff.

[washparkhorn 9939]

Our upward mobility has significantly decreased, but that is something we Americans get to talk about together - as a family. Don't need the brits crowing about it to the World. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/13/american-dream-broken-upward-mobility-us

To my British friends: Mind the gap cousins. Thatcher did the same thing to all of you lot. We had your backs as you faded. We don't plan to fade. 

[Brisketexan 105571]

8 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Our upward mobility has significantly decreased, but that is something we Americans get to talk about together - as a family. Don't need the brits crowing about it to the World. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/13/american-dream-broken-upward-mobility-us

To my British friends: Mind the gap cousins. Thatcher did the same thing to all of you lot. We had your backs as you faded. We don't plan to fade. 

Oh, the lasting impacts of Thatcher-era austerity have the brits proper fooked, for sure.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 hours ago, B00M said:

This thread really is brisket's wheelhouse: emotion, words, doom, zany analogies, hypotheticals, so many words. Any debatable facts? Maybe? Has Hitler been mentioned yet? It's great because we can all be sad and mad and be here for hours and not learn a thing except Brisket types fast. Thanks Bob.

You know when he's out on one of his ledges 

[fattyflattie 4639]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Also, I would make serving peach cobbler WITHOUT ice cream on top a death penalty offense.  Cobbler comes with ice cream.  It's part of the dessert.

Need to add in expedited sentence if made in anything other than cast iron, the way God intended. 

[Brisketexan 105571]

10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You know when he's out on one of his ledges 

I think I've been pretty measured here.  We're not the bottom of the heap.  But we're not the "shining city on a hill" that we like to make ourselves out to be.  At the very least, if we once were, we aren't anymore.  We ain't 4 touchdowns in one game Al Bundy.  We're run-down-by-life living an ordinary life Al Bundy.....just like most of our peers.  We could get better, but when our reflexive response is "FOUR TOUCHDOWNS IN ONE GAME!", we're not helping our cause.

Hell, Aaron Sorkin wrote most of what I have 10 years ago:

 

Wait.  Now that I think about it, I've been measured about everything but the cobbler thing.  On that, I give no quarter.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Brisketexan

[washparkhorn 9939]

13 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You know when he's out on one of his ledges 

Let he without ledges cast the first stone . . .   John 8:7 = surly wisdom

Edited March 17, 2021 by washparkhorn

[B00M 6576]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I think I've been pretty measured here.  We're not the bottom of the heap.  But we're not the "shining city on a hill" that we like to make ourselves out to be.  At the very least, if we once were, we aren't anymore.  We ain't 4 touchdowns in one game Al Bundy.  We're run-down-by-life living an ordinary life Al Bundy.....just like most of our peers.  We could get better, but when our reflexive response is "FOUR TOUCHDOWNS IN ONE GAME!", we're not helping our cause.

Are you sure we're not 2nd marriage Al? I mean Peggy wasn't bad but

[fattyflattie 4639]

I admittedly don’t talk to many immigrants who’ve come here and haven’t made it. But I’ve spoken with many that have made it to middle class, and quite a few that came here and kicked ass.  They love this country more than many of the natives do. There is a reason for that. There’s some reasons to be down on us currently, but give me a fucking break. How would US look if we took all the food and money we give the world and invested it in ourselves?  The fact is we do pretty good while babysitting ALOT of people in a pretty major way.  

[Captainant 27972]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

I admittedly don’t talk to many immigrants who’ve come here and haven’t made it. But I’ve spoken with many that have made it to middle class, and quite a few that came here and kicked ass.  They love this country more than many of the natives do. There is a reason for that. There’s some reasons to be down on us currently, but give me a fucking break. How would US look if we took all the food and money we give the world and invested it in ourselves?  The fact is we do pretty good while babysitting ALOT of people in a pretty major way.  

If we're talking about reallocating funds, how about turning down the police and military spending in favor of infrastructure and social investments? Those are CONSIDERABLY more substantial than our food aid work. 

But sure, America first and all that (you should check out those Seuss comics btw)

[fattyflattie 4639]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

If we're talking about reallocating funds, how about turning down the police and military spending in favor of infrastructure and social investments?

Not sure the Brits would want that, considering they might just need it. Again. 

 

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

But sure, America first and all that (you should check out those Seuss comics btw)

Not following you here. 

[Captainant 27972]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Not sure the Brits would want that, considering they might just need it. Again. 

 

Not following you here. 

Just calling out that you're advocating for the termination of humanitarian programs that are fractions of pennies compared to what we spend on equipment the military doesn't need and gets handed off to Joe Chud the deputy after a few years of storage. And that taking aim at thinking """wasteful""" things like feeding the hungry of the world is less worth doing than blowing them up

[lmao 178]

What other countries would better to raise a family?