Just how bad are things in America? Not great!

[JimmyJames 12271]

3 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Are they doing every single thing the Trump admin. did ?  probablyy not.  Are they housing  people in conditions they were railing against the entire 4 years of the trump admin. yes they are (SEE:  AOC's white suit, fence line, crying jag).  You split hairs over the small details but fail to acknowledge the general issue, typical. 

We should just just check the current Republican Party platform so we can learn about their current policy position when it comes to solving the immigration problem.

Unfortunately I can’t seem to find the current platform. Since you seem to be a Republican, maybe you could post us a link to it? 
 

Thanks in advance. 

[hpslugga 4044]

On 3/25/2021 at 9:35 AM, wildcat09 said:

IIRC, I think slugga was possibly the only poster against invading Afghanistan too? There were a few others against Iraq, but I think he might've truly been the only one that got it right on Afghanistan.

Yes, that was another vintage of the jingoist crowd that rotted horribly.

[hpslugga 4044]

1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

We should just just check the current Republican Party platform so we can learn about their current policy position when it comes to solving the immigration problem.

Unfortunately I can’t seem to find the current platform. Since you seem to be a Republican, maybe you could post us a link to it? 
 

Thanks in advance. 

Their platform is:

1. Write down a horribly twisted strawman version of whatever it is the Democrats are proposing.

2. Burn down the paper

3. Piss on the ashes

4. Strut around like they accomplished something

5. ???

6. Profit

[David Dennison 18659]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Right, but is this a function of an internalized corruption being exploited in the pursuit of power/profits? 
 

Racism/white supremacy exists in the population almost inherently because the problem is structural going back, I don’t know, a thousand years?  However, I’d argue racism/white supremacy is a man made disease and not inherent to the human condition, people need to be conditioned to be racist and our society does it so perfunctory that many believe it to be the natural order of things and that’s how the politics of division comes in. 
 

The history of “western civilization” is centered to the white man because it has been written and framed by white men as the greatest human success story ever told. Why would we want to change things after everything we’ve accomplished?  Never mind that this success has come at the expense of whole other populations through genocide and brutal subjugation. The remains of those oppressed populations and their sympathizers will have to assimilate to the dominate worldview or perish trying change it. Such is the way of the American conservative and today’s white supremacists.
 

In conclusion, white supremacy/racism isn’t only a tool to keep the masses divided, it is an ideology, in its own right, baked into much of the population and there is no easy cure. 

We have a racial caste system in this country born of slavery. We really don't like talking about it because it makes white people uncomfortable. But we really need to deal with it because it is an existential threat to the United States of America. See: January 6, 2021.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20344]

5 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Yes they are. Cops lie every day. It’s part of being a human being. 

FIFY.

People lie every day. Cops don't have a monopoly on this.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20344]

5 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Yes they are. Cops lie every day. It’s part of being a human being. 

FIFY.

People lie every day. Cops don't have a monopoly on this.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20344]

5 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Yes they are. Cops lie every day. It’s part of being a human being. 

FIFY.

People lie every day. Cops don't have a monopoly on this.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20344]

5 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Yes they are. Cops lie every day. It’s part of being a human being. 

FIFY.

People lie every day. Cops don't have a monopoly on this.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20344]

Ah ... the very rare quadruple post.  Don't ask me how I do this. It's a gift.

[F250 28691]

4 hours ago, David Dennison said:

We have a racial caste system in this country born of slavery. We really don't like talking about it because it makes white people uncomfortable. But we really need to deal with it because it is an existential threat to the United States of America. See: January 6, 2021.

Disagree, the caste system was historically predicated on keeping power within the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant polity until necessity required other non-WASPs to be included into a more generic "White polity". Slavery wasn't built into this because no one anticipated the blecks owning property and having the right to vote. It's always been about retaining power. See the consideration of annexing Mexico after the the U.S. invaded Mexico as an example. The biggest argument against annexation was the imbalance of power that would occur if so many Mexicans suddenly were U.S. citizens. lulz its still an argument to this day.

 

 

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

6 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Their platform is:

1. Write down a horribly twisted strawman version of whatever it is the Democrats are proposing.

2. Burn down the paper

3. Piss on the ashes

4. Strut around like they accomplished something

5. ???

6. Profit

Number 4 is their most prevalent move. Strutting around spewing bullshit is the entire Republican Party platform.

[washparkhorn 9935]

5 hours ago, David Dennison said:

We have a racial caste system in this country born of slavery. We really don't like talking about it because it makes white people uncomfortable. But we really need to deal with it because it is an existential threat to the United States of America. 

https://thebaffler.com/latest/castes-of-mind

Article compares the caste system of India to the United States' caste system. It is an interesting intersection. 

[David Dennison 18659]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

Disagree, the caste system was historically predicated on keeping power within the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant polity until necessity required other non-WASPs to be included into a more generic "White polity". Slavery wasn't built into this because no one anticipated the blecks owning property and having the right to vote. It's always been about retaining power. See the consideration of annexing Mexico after the the U.S. invaded Mexico as an example. The biggest argument against annexation was the imbalance of power that would occur if so many Mexicans suddenly were U.S. citizens. lulz its still an argument to this day.

The point is, it exists, and it makes the privileged caste very uncomfortable when you confront them with that reality.

[Willfully Horn 7915]

On 3/25/2021 at 9:43 AM, Incredulity said:

And the solution to reducing bureaucracy is...

***Checks notes***

 

government run healthcare?

What is the administrative overhead for Medicare? <checks notes> Oh yeah, 1.1% of total costs.

[UTDD 362]

10 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

My friend, quit while your behind and fading.

Propublica article. Remember the secret facebook Border Patrol account?

 

Fine folks. It's not just an anecdote; it's systemic. They were getting their jollies being the worst kind of cop you can be. Maybe there are  a few good apples, but the barrel is rotten.

Why hasn't Biden fixed all of this in two months? See, it's all partisan bs. They're all the same.

Also recall that the use of criticized facilities under Biden was a Covid precaution and applied to unattended minors mostly in their teens. National news media, abandoning accuracy because they worry about the constant right-wing whine about bias, leapt on the optics.

Of course, that takes a couple of sentences to explain, and who has time for that? Let's comb the Rush oldies-but-goodies for quotes that make us feel good about being shit human beings.

The most relevant part about the group to me was if it was actually 9,500 agents, that's a pretty substantial percentage of all of the Border Agents overall.    

[Incredulity 11555]

42 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

What is the administrative overhead for Medicare? <checks notes> Oh yeah, 1.1% of total costs.

Really impressive that the federal government can confiscate services for a low price.  
 

The 99 dollar question is what happens if there is no employer pool to backstop those takings.

[Willfully Horn 7915]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Really impressive that the federal government can confiscate services for a low price.  
 

The 99 dollar question is what happens if there is no employer pool to backstop those takings.

If costs were to increase, wouldn’t the overhead percentage go down?

I read your question as asking what happens if everything comes crashing down. A good question, but it doesn’t back your OP that government wouldn’t manage health care efficaciously.

[Incredulity 11555]

12 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

If costs were to increase, wouldn’t the overhead percentage go down?

I read your question as asking what happens if everything comes crashing down. A good question, but it doesn’t back your OP that government wouldn’t manage health care efficaciously.

Medicare’s overhead is low because the Federal Government tells private providers what it will pay for services.  That is economically impossible without a robust private market from which to usurp services.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Incredulity

[Willfully Horn 7915]

14 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Medicare’s overhead is low because the Federal Government tells private providers what it will pay for services.  That is economically impossible without a robust private market from which to usurp services.

I confess to not understanding how prices affect administrative overhead.

Usurpation by the uninsured seems more onerous.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Further

[Incredulity 11555]

8 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

I confess to not understanding how prices affect administrative overhead.

Medicare has little administrative overhead because it has the power of the federal government to dictate what it will pay for a service.  No negotiation, no argument.  If, and they don’t, those prices don’t cover costs for providers they charge more to other customers(private insurance),

Edited March 27, 2021 by Incredulity

[Willfully Horn 7915]

8 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Medicare has little administrative overhead because it has the power of the federal government to dictate what it will pay for a service.  No negotiation, no argument.  If, and they don’t, those prices don’t cover costs for providers they charge more to other customers(private insurance),

So, 15% of medical administrative expense occurs during negotiations? And, isn’t Medicare income preferable to the return from the uninsured?

Edited March 27, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Repeating myself

[Incredulity 11555]

4 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

So, 15% of medical administrative expense occurs during negotiations?

@Anastasis

[Incredulity 11555]

5 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

So, 15% of medical administrative expense occurs during negotiations?

Have you never been involved in a significant medical billing?  It’s pretty much a knife fight between the provider and insurer over each line item from aspirin to sutures.  Two day of office staff time for each billing adds up.

[David Dennison 18659]

36 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Medicare’s overhead is low because the Federal Government tells private providers what it will pay for services.  That is economically impossible without a robust private market from which to usurp services.

How does it work in the countries that provide better health care than the United States without a robust private market from which to usurp services? 

[Anastasis 23394]

I don't exactly track what you guys are arguing about, but the focus should be on cost effective outcomes. Some people don't like the sausage making, but they fail to realize that the sausage gets made essentially the same way whether it is a private or public payer footing the bill. 

[Incredulity 11555]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

How does it work in the countries that provide better health care than the United States without a robust private market from which to usurp services? 

Define “better”

[Neonmoon 38127]

7 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Define “better”

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf
 

Higher than #37 

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

20 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

By lying. 

Yeah fuck off, I may be incorrect in a comment, but I don't lie, that serves no purpose.

[Incredulity 11555]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf
 

Higher than #37 

 

Please explain the relevance of this study to the discussion of Medicare’s overhead cost.

This study uses a composite of measurements, including education levels, to evaluate countries healthcare “efficiency”.  
 

To further test robustness, we explored whether the inclusion of possible other non-health system determinants of health would make a difference to the ranking – in addition to our proxy for non-health system determinants, average years of schooling

 

[Neonmoon 38127]

53 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Please explain the relevance of this study to the discussion of Medicare’s overhead cost.

This study uses a composite of measurements, including education levels, to evaluate countries healthcare “efficiency”.  
 

To further test robustness, we explored whether the inclusion of possible other non-health system determinants of health would make a difference to the ranking – in addition to our proxy for non-health system determinants, average years of schooling

 

Define “better”

[David Dennison 18659]

11 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Define “better”

Let's say lower costs for healthier people who live longer. How do those countries that outperform the United States do it without a robust private market from which to usurp services?

[Incredulity 11555]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Let's say lower costs for healthier people who live longer. How do those countries that outperform the United States do it without a robust private market from which to usurp services?

I don’t really care to engage in the same old debate regarding US healthcare system vs. rest of developed countries.
 

 I agree what we have is extremely fucked.  I agree that a single payer system could significantly decrease administrative cost.  All that really is though is price controls.  Which have been proven over and over to not work.

 

 

 

[David Dennison 18659]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

I don’t really care to engage in the same old debate regarding US healthcare system vs. rest of developed countries.
 

 I agree what we have is extremely fucked.  I agree that a single payer system could significantly decrease administrative cost.  All that really is though is price controls.  Which have been proven over and over to not work.

Regarding health care, where have price controls been proven over and over not to work?

[Incredulity 11555]

Economic principles of supply, demand, price controls, black markets....apply to healthcare despite your hopes that they don’t.

[Sawbonz 27436]

48 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Let's say lower costs for healthier people who live longer. How do those countries that outperform the United States do it without a robust private market from which to usurp services?

They greatly restrict beginning of life and end of life care as well as futile treatment such as chemotherapy, cardiac procedures, dialysis and organ transplants for certain patient populations and have long waits for Orthopaedic procedures 

 

among other things

[mchookem 16222]

my anecdotal contribution to the healthcare discussion, and what is 'not great'...

my MAGA dad in NE Texas has spent a great amount of time the past year (yes, during covid) traveling to the valley to stay with other MAGA-minded retiree friends in order to get tens of thousands of dollars worth of dental work done...in Mexico.

for literally a small fraction of the costs he was quoted in Texas. and he shopped around in Texas, even saw a dentist here in Austin. he'll be bragging about how much money he saved until he dies lol.

he raves about the conditions, costs, and convenience of these services along the border. he rants about the 'American system is nothing but a racket!!' 

then he goes home and continues watching FOX news all day and rails on 'socialized medicine!' and the evil Democrats.

he sees no conflict there. 

i would be embarrassed for him except everybody he associates with other than his children and grandchild thinks the same, so who cares. when we carefully/casually try to point out the hypocrisy of these positions, 9 times out of 10 we get a rant about the 'Democrat baby-killing' machine (abortion).

he is not senile. he does not have dementia. he is college educated and wealthy.

so. there are millions of US citizens who think this way. i do not see any solution to this problem.

and it's NOT GREAT, BOB!

Edited March 27, 2021 by mchookem
clarifying costs

[Incredulity 11555]

Americans going to Mexico for care is cash payment for service, not socialized medicine.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Incredulity

[Michael Knight 12898]

On 3/26/2021 at 8:53 AM, Onboard 2.0 said:

Are they doing every single thing the Trump admin. did ?  probablyy not.  Are they housing  people in conditions they were railing against the entire 4 years of the trump admin. yes they are (SEE:  AOC's white suit, fence line, crying jag).  You split hairs over the small details but fail to acknowledge the general issue, typical. 

So you're saying America is full of pieces of shit and is a terrible place

[mchookem 16222]

8 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Americans going to Mexico for care is cash payment for service, not socialized medicine.

ah...the point being he paid a mere fraction of the cost for what he felt was superior and more 'fair' service. 

i will correct my post bc i realize i forgot that most salient point.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

No place in the world looks at the American healthcare system and says, “boy, I wish we had that!” 

[Incredulity 11555]

Just now, mchookem said:

ah...the point being he paid a mere fraction of the cost for what he felt was superior and more 'fair' service. 

i will correct my post bc i realize i forgot that most salient point.

Which is a capitalistic model not socialized medicine.  Unfettered access to a service in exchange for money.  Less regulation, less cost, more affordable.

[Incredulity 11555]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

No place in the world looks at the American healthcare system and says, “boy, I wish we had that!” 

That completely false.  Typical for you.

[mchookem 16222]

ok, we're the kings of capitalism, why doesn't that work here?

[Incredulity 11555]

1 minute ago, mchookem said:

ok, we're the kings of capitalism, why doesn't that work here?

Because our system is a half ass combination.  Highly regulated insurers negotiate with highly regulated providers.  It’s cost on top of cost on top of cost just to submit a bill for 2 aspirin.

 

 

[mchookem 16222]

so Mexico has a better healthcare system than the U.S., providing universal coverage at a fraction of the cost with fewer unnecessary regulations. i think we're in agreement. and so is my dad, altho he won't admit it lol.

[Incredulity 11555]

1 minute ago, mchookem said:

so Mexico has a better healthcare system than the U.S., providing universal coverage at a fraction of the cost with fewer unnecessary regulations. i think we're in agreement. and so is my dad, altho he won't admit it lol.

Mexico has a cottage industry in its border towns selling dental care to Americans for cash.

 

 

[mchookem 16222]

not just the border, and not just dental care. we have friends* that have retired near Guadalajara and they are appreciating the healthcare as well. the husband does come back here to his cardiologist bc he had quad bypass a few years ago and prefers to see that same doctor, but they've both had other medical procedures and issues that they determined were cheaper for them to just pay out-of-pocket than the hassle of traveling back here and dealing with our system.

*anecdotal but real heh

Edited March 27, 2021 by mchookem

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

24 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Because our system is a half ass combination.  Highly regulated insurers negotiate with highly regulated providers.  It’s cost on top of cost on top of cost just to submit a bill for 2 aspirin.

 

 

This is true.  Deep pockets beget long fingers.

[gmr548 16516]

3 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Economic principles of supply, demand, price controls, black markets....apply to healthcare despite your hopes that they don’t.

But the demand is so inelastic, and the externalities of from care foregone, due to expense, until a critical inflection point are so great, that the situation doesn't remotely resemble a market of rational buyers and sellers that will find a natural equilibrium if just left alone. And that doesn't even touch the moral/ethical issues.

At the end of the day, we can debate healthcare until blue in the face. We will continue to spend enormous amounts of money on it and have garbage outcomes because we don't give a fuck about public health as a whole. We've tailor made a society for bad health outcomes. Poverty, diet, sedentary lifestyles, car-based urban sprawl, environmental degradation, toxic working culture with minimal time off, lack of opportunity for large swaths of the country and decreasing economic mobility, etc... All of these factors contribute to poor health.

No healthcare system, not  a libertarian wet dream free for all, not a NHS clone, and not anything in between is going to have good outcomes with a population as fat, stressed out, poorly nourished, etc. as ours.

[Captainant 27464]

The American healthcare system isn't built for good health outcomes. It's built for profitability and continuous revenue streams for shareholders. 

There may be the best and most cutting edge treatments being developed here, but they're inaccessible to the vast majority of Americans without going into crippling debt. 

Bragging about our healthcare system because of the cutting edge treatments is like aggy bragging about the SEC because of bama.