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Brexit shenanigans

bernorange

By bernorange
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hpslugga

hpslugga 4062

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:


The opposition wasn’t going to vote that it had confidence in the Government. So it just didn’t vote.


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Exactly. The only way you ever get a vote with nearly 100% turning out is if the winner is determined by "my side has more votes than yours." If it's a 2/3rds concept, there's seriously no value whatsoever in a no vote.

Come to think of it, I think that should have been the Democrats' strategy when Congress impeached Clinton. Just imagine 

"Hey, Clinton got no votes for acquittal! We beat his ass 50-0 and 45-0!!!"

"So now what happens?"

"Well we needed 67 votes on either charge to get him out of office, so he's still President and this was a gigantic waste of time, but yeah we kicked his ass!"

 

Edited by hpslugga
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elfenix

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Posted
Posted (edited)

 

 

can you imagine anything like that happening in the US?  what if, out on course the other day, someone walked up to drumpf and told him he's supposed to be monitoring the hurricane, drumpf claimed to be, and the guy pointed out that, no, he's not, he's out on course holding up the group behind him and leering at the beer cart girl?

Edited by elfenix
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Doc Sam Beckett

Doc Sam Beckett 5797

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46 minutes ago, elfenix said:

 

 

can you imagine anything like that happening in the US?  what if, out on course the other day, someone walked up to drumpf and told him he's supposed to be monitoring the hurricane, drumpf claimed to be, and the guy pointed out that, no, he's not, he's out on course holding up the group behind him and leering at the beer cart girl?

 

As awesome as this is, it's equally scary. Britain looks like they are about to look their bullshit right wing party in the eye and tell them to get fucked, that Britain deserves better. I kind of felt a little better when we had a friend with us down here in the mud. I'm not sure we have what it takes to tell our traitors to get fucked. 

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Bruno Sardine

Bruno Sardine 147

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Posted

I quote people with no disrespect intended. I personally think Brexit amounts to an unforced error, by the way. 

Also, the process was insanely flawed, mainly by not giving the population a choice or clear picture on how the Brexit would go.

Yep.   It's moronic to argue that, because a small majority voted for Brexit, they voted for it to happen no matter the terms.  But, that's where we seem to be. 

Ironically, Brexit presents a pretty strong argument against direct democracy referendums to make enormously consequential decisions that an ill-informed voting public are not fully educated to make.

Well, it’s the moronity of treating a Letter of Intent as a binding and inviolable contract.
They approved the concept of Brexit. That’s an LOI. Once they did their due diligence and drafted actual contract terms, the deal is pretty shitty. They shouldn’t go forward with it.

Is it not fair to say, at this point, that the British people do have a clear picture of the consequences of Brexit? Why would anyone who opposes Brexit oppose a new election? Voters know exactly what the stakes are. If non-Brexit forces prevail, it is the end of Brexit. They can point to the election and claim it as a second referendum. If this makes them uncomfortable, a Labour-led government can make a second referendum actually happen. 

The fact that Labour and anti-Brexit forces generally oppose such an election, indicates that they believe the overall electorate of the UK still supports Brexit. Whatever the reasons for their decision (white nationalism, xenophobia, genuine concerns over national sovereignty) it is hard to argue in late 2019 that pro-Brexit voters remain ignorant of the potential political and economic consequences of Brexit. 

If I’m missing something, please explain it to me. Is now not the chance to drive a stake through the heart of Brexit? To reverse the results of the referendum? If you oppose Brexit, shouldn’t you support a new election? Happy to be educated.
 

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Lurch

Lurch 5931

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The election would just reflect the people’s party choices, not be a referendum on Brexit. Boris wants it because it would run out the clock on negotiations w EU while not changing party demographics in parliament with any significance

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Bruno Sardine

Bruno Sardine 147

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46 minutes ago, Lurch said:

The election would just reflect the people’s party choices, not be a referendum on Brexit. Boris wants it because it would run out the clock on negotiations w EU while not changing party demographics in parliament with any significance

Got it. That makes sense now. So the call for the election is a cynical ploy. I am willing to buy that. At the same time, I must question the idea that the election would merely reflect people's party choices. Wouldn't this be a truly special sort of election? As in, unprecedented and history-making? Wouldn't everyone see it as a second referendum? I mean, if they wouldn't see it that way, then I concede the argument. I honestly don't know. 

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bolverk

bolverk 29737

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1 hour ago, Lurch said:

The election would just reflect the people’s party choices, not be a referendum on Brexit. Boris wants it because it would run out the clock on negotiations w EU while not changing party demographics in parliament with any significance

To add to this, Labour and Corbyn are now on board with holding a second referendum dealing directly with Brexit.

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Bruno Sardine

Bruno Sardine 147

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Posted
19 hours ago, Mojo Hand said:

If that's the case, they should just hold an actual second referendum.  The Brexit folks should welcome it because they care so much about the will of the people, right? 

Edit:  in response to Bruno

For the record (not that it matters) I have no problem with a second referendum. Given the current cluster@#&*, it seems like a reasonable option - perhaps the best option for the long-term stability of the UK. But the only way to make that happen is to hold another election. Thus my post. 

 

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bolverk

bolverk 29737

Posted
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

For the record (not that it matters) I have no problem with a second referendum. Given the current cluster@#&*, it seems like a reasonable option - perhaps the best option for the long-term stability of the UK. But the only way to make that happen is to hold another election. Thus my post. 

 

I don't think that's factually correct but could be mistaken as I'm completely befuddled by the British legislative process. I make this claim as it's been an option under discussion for quite some time now and never have I heard it tied to a general election until this week.

Edit: The 2016 Brexit referendum most certainly didn't coincide with a general election.

Edited by bolverk
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Ghost of LL

Ghost of LL 15545

Posted
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1 hour ago, bolverk said:

I don't think that's factually correct but could be mistaken as I'm completely befuddled by the British legislative process. I make this claim as it's been an option under discussion for quite some time now and never have I heard it tied to a general election until this week.

Edit: The 2016 Brexit referendum most certainly didn't coincide with a general election.

Isn't that probably the Tories' best chance right now?  If you do a general election at the same time as a referendum, you completely disentangle the two and allow people to vote in the general election based on domestic policies only to the exclusion of Brexit.  And we know that from a domestic policy standpoint, the Tories do very well.  It's Brexit on which they trip on their own dicks.

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bolverk

bolverk 29737

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1 minute ago, Ghost of LL said:

Isn't that probably the Tories' best chance right now?  If you do a general election at the same time as a referendum, you completely disentangle the two and allow people to vote in the general election based on domestic policies only to the exclusion of Brexit.  And we know that from a domestic policy standpoint, the Tories do very well.  It's Brexit on which they trip on their own dicks.

Gagreed. That's why the opposition (I think) isn't going along with Boris's scheme to hold a general election right now. They'd like a second referendum to stand on its own.

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Bruno Sardine

Bruno Sardine 147

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3 hours ago, bolverk said:

I don't think that's factually correct but could be mistaken as I'm completely befuddled by the British legislative process.

I know it's wikipedia, but: "In May 2015, in accordance with a Conservative Party manifesto commitment following their victory at the 2015 UK general election, the legal basis for a referendum on EU membership was established by the UK Parliament through the European Union Referendum Act 2015."

So I think for there to be another referendum, Parliament must take action. And the only way Parliament will take action is if Labour and its anti-Brexit allies form a new government. 

I could certainly be mistaken. Thanks to Lurch and LL for providing additional insight. I had just assumed that an election would be seen, at the present moment, as essentially a second referendum. But I defer to more knowledgeable posters. 

 

 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105457

Posted
Posted
This may help understanding, too. You can see how disconnected brexit votes and party affiliation are

vote1b.png

Man. Those demos just hack me off. “Hey, let’s make a huge decision that will decide the path of our country for decades.” Followed by “and let’s absolutely go the direction that people who won’t be around in 10-15 years want us to go.”

Only slightly less foolish: “and let’s for sure let the folks with the least education pick our path.”

In the English speaking world, the prototypical dominant voter is a 75 yr old with a third grade education. Jesus shitdicks.
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F250

F250 28826

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I read that Sinn Fein will likely be working with pro-remain parties to stop Brexit. Doubtful that they take their seats in parliament because they will never swear loyalty to the crown, more than likely they will be giving up seats to the Social Democratic and Labour Party in Northern Ireland.

 

 

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