Brexit shenanigans

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Js1 85276]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Lulz so I guess we should go with Hillary Clinton again.  

Never mind the 2018 midterms and Dems winning statewide races in the Deep South by running on healthcare.  

Yes that’s what we all took from that - run Hillary again!

Or the likeable version of her - Uncle Joe. If she was like 10% more likeable as a person, she wins. 

[Js1 85276]

dp 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Js1

[Js1 85276]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Just now, Js1 said:

Yes that’s what we all took from that - run Hillary again!

Or the likeable version of her - Uncle Joe. If she was like 10% more likeable as a person, she wins. 

You crystallize the point that ideology has jack shit to do with electability in the United States.  It’s all about affability first and policy second.  People didn’t vote for Trump because his ideas were awesome. They chose him because his alternative wasn’t charismatic enough.  

[Js1 85276]

Tis true. Labour’s platforms are overwhelmingly popular but people hate Corbyn. 

People like Joe. Joe will win. 

[Fozzz 152]

46 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Great lesson for the Democrats.  Go too far left and you will lose to trump. 

If the Dems support a second referendum, they are totally fucked.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

Tis true. Labour’s platforms are overwhelmingly popular but people hate Corbyn. 

People like Joe. Joe will win. 

People like the idea of Joe now as some Obi wan of politics come to save America.  I’m not sure how they’re going to feel when he gets out there and starts speaking in tongues because his brain is mush.

[GRHorn 105]

6 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Yes that’s what we all took from that - run Hillary again!

Or the likeable version of her - Uncle Joe. If she was like 10% more likeable as a person, she wins. 

Hillary-uniquely unlikeable 

Corbyn-uniquely unlikeable (evidently)

the left needs to figure that out 

11 minutes ago, Js1 said:

 

Brexit 1 presaged Trump. Hard not to draw parallels again. 

[Js1 85276]

36 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

People like the idea of Joe now as some Obi wan of politics come to save America.  I’m not sure how they’re going to feel when he gets out there and starts speaking in tongues because his brain is mush.

Works for Trump. We are not a substantive population. We are dumb 

[Shady Ray 1633]

9 hours ago, Js1 said:

Jo Swinson basically triggered this thing and then lost her seat. Damn. 

I've been in Glasgow all week and had two cab drivers tell me that they lived in Jo's district and couldn't wait to vote her out. She really seems to have done what was required to piss away the "55-year old Glaswegian Cabbie" vote.

[workswithseed 2088]

13 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Works for Trump. We are not a substantive population. We are dumb 

Does that mean yourself in that equation?

Edited December 13, 2019 by workswithseed
Or n? How did this happen?

[David Dennison 18850]

4 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Does that mean yourself or n that equation?

It means most Americans, particularly the ones who vote for Republicans, are stupid.

That is undeniable.

[Fozzz 152]

You can't both be the party of both workers and over-educated, affluent metropolitan liberals as catering to the latter will produce cleavages in your coalition that will be easily torn apart by the right.  This shouldn't be a difficult choice to make.  

 

[David Dennison 18850]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

You can't both be the party of both workers and over-educated, affluent metropolitan liberals as catering to the latter will produce cleavages in your coalition that will be easily torn apart by the right.  This shouldn't be a difficult choice to make.  

 

Oh, but American and British parties of the right can be that? 

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

 

 

[Bateshorn 9927]

Like I said,  there may be parallels in there for US politics, but the one outlier is how Jeremy Corbyn was universally loathed. 

[bolverk 29655]

As has been previously stated, support for Leave/Remain isn't entirely universal within each of the UK's various parties. But, because this is Surly and we have to always think in a binary fashion, I went ahead and did vote totals for the various parties divvying them up into assorted columns. The results tell me the election wasn't nearly as much about Brexit as we might assume over on this side of the pond.

You're all welcome to check my maths taken directly from here: https://www.bbc.com/news/election/2019/results It should also be noted that constituencies in the UK are apportioned even more inconsistently along population size than our own congressional districts.

	LEAVE			REMAIN			????		TOTAL
Conservative	13,966,451		Labour	10,295,907		Yorkshire Party	29,201
Democratic Unionists	244,127		SNP	1,242,380		Liberal Party	10,876
UKIP	22,817		Liberal Democrat	3,696,423		Independent Group for Change	10,006
			Sinn Fein	181,853		Aontu	9,814
			Plaid Cymru	153,265		Monster Raving Lunatic Party	9,739
			Green	865,697		Christian Peoples Alliance	6,486
			Ulster Unionists	93,123		Social Democratic Party	3,295
			Alliance	134,115		Animal Welfare Party	3,086
						English Democrats	1,987
						Libertarian	1,780
						Workers Revolutionary	524
						Advance Together	351
						Other	267,757
TOTAL	14,233,395			16,662,763			354,902		31,251,060
SHARE	45.5%			53.3%			1.1%

[hayden_horn 11362]

2 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

Like I said,  there may be parallels in there for US politics, but the one outlier is how Jeremy Corbyn was universally loathed. 

that's because he is a twat.

seriously. my british coworkers who might lean left more often than not fucking hated him.

this is being touted as boris's big win, when in reality, labour turned a 35 - 3 lead into a 41 - 38 loss.

Edited December 13, 2019 by hayden_horn

[GRHorn 105]

18 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

that's because he is a twat.

seriously. my british coworkers who might lean left more often than not fucking hated him.

this is being touted as boris's big win, when in reality, labour turned a 35 - 3 lead into a 41 - 38 loss.

If only Hillary had campaigned in Wisconsin, and so on.
She won the popular vote.

Do y’all ever tire of the excuses?

Edited December 13, 2019 by GRHorn

[hayden_horn 11362]

Just now, GRHorn said:

If only Hillary had campaigned in Wisconsin, and so on. Do y’all ever tire of the excuses?

i don't think that corbyn and labour lost because he neglected to campaign in lincolnshire or west midlands. they lost because everyone fucking hated him. it's actually very similar to the hillary thing.

i'm not sure what excuses i'm making.

[Fozzz 152]

30 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

that's because he is a twat.

seriously. my british coworkers who might lean left more often than not fucking hated him.

this is being touted as boris's big win, when in reality, labour turned a 35 - 3 lead into a 41 - 38 loss.

Your coworkers sound like twats. 

[GRHorn 105]

8 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i don't think that corbyn and labour lost because he neglected to campaign in lincolnshire or west midlands. they lost because everyone fucking hated him. it's actually very similar to the hillary thing.

i'm not sure what excuses i'm making.

Coulda woulda shoulda. Totally should’ve had it. 
Downplaying another monumental defeat for the left. 

[hayden_horn 11362]

1 minute ago, GRHorn said:

Coulda woulda shoulda. Totally should’ve had it. 
Downplaying another monumental defeat for the left. 

i'm not downplaying it at all. labour chose a poor leader. historically poor. democrats did the same. it's their fault.

[Chrispy_ 105]

The complete annihilation that was dealt to the Labour Party was the best possible outcome for them, they can now go back to the drawing board and scrap the radical left wing element that has held them back.  
 

I didn’t think it was possible to run a worse campaign than Hillary, but Corbyn managed to do just that. He was pushing another Brexit referendum and couldn’t say which way he would vote... what a total disaster. 

[Chrispy_ 105]

3 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Coulda woulda shoulda. Totally should’ve had it. 
Downplaying another monumental defeat for the left. 

Agreed, it was a total repudiation of the radical left. We’ll see if they learn any lessons here, but I’m skeptical. 

[Dr Fear 1268]

 

The hat is too damn tall party.

[GSU&UT 1798]

Just now, Chrispy_ said:

Agreed, it was a total repudiation of the radical left. We’ll see if they learn any lessons here, but I’m skeptical. 

lol, remember when we ran a centrist and lost? Good lord you're an idiot. People didn't leave the Labour party over their policies

 

[Fozzz 152]

1 minute ago, Chrispy_ said:

Agreed, it was a total repudiation of the radical left. We’ll see if they learn any lessons here, but I’m skeptical. 

You think workers abandoned labour because of policies intended to benefit them, and not because labour waffled on brexit, something those workers passionately supported? 

[Chrispy_ 105]

2 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

lol, remember when we ran a centrist and lost? Good lord you're an idiot. People didn't leave the Labour party over their policies

 

Ok, that graph convinced me. The Labour Party suffered its largest defeat since the 1930’s simply because of Corbyn. The inability of the left to look into the mirror never ceases to amaze me. 

[GSU&UT 1798]

Just now, Chrispy_ said:

Ok, that graph convinced me. The Labour Party suffered its largest defeat since the 1930’s simply because of Corbyn. The inability of the left to look into the mirror never ceases to amaze me. 

Yes, data is all lies. Go play in traffic, it's totally safe

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

4 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Lulz so I guess we should go with Hillary Clinton again.  

Never mind the 2018 midterms and Dems winning statewide races in the Deep South by running on healthcare.  

you got me, that was exactly what I said. eyeroll.

I've pretty much voted for Dem in the Presidential race since '92. Nominate Bernie or Warren and I'm sitting out 2020. I'm a centrist Democrat and I would never vote for them.  I don't prefer Trump to them but I won't vote for them.  

And if it takes Trump winning in 2020 to shut down the far left progressive wing of the Dem party, that might just have to be a heavy price to pay.

 

[bolverk 29655]

One thing getting lost in this thread is that the Tories lost most of their entire foothold in Scotland to the SNP (screenshots from the BBC link I posted earlier).

I certainly won't predict Scotland WILL leave the UK over this, but Nicola Sturgeon is going to make some noise and will likely push for an independence referendum.

Quote

 

Election results 2019: A constitutional collision course in Scotland

Nicola Sturgeon maintained throughout the election campaign that she did not want to see Boris Johnson returned to Downing Street as prime minister.

But the SNP leader knows that a majority Tory government in Westminster, while Scotland voted very differently, is the result most likely to advance her greatest ambition - independence for Scotland.

The party which dominates Scotland is now set on a constitutional collision course with the UK government.

The SNP's strongest argument is that Scotland and the rest of UK are moving in different political directions.

And that's been vividly demonstrated as England embraces the Tories whilst they have lost votes and lost seats north of the border.

The UK will now move on to leaving the EU at the same time as the two parties who campaigned to stop Brexit, the SNP and the Lib Dems, increased their vote share in Scotland.

The SNP took a gamble by making their demand for a second independence referendum central to their campaign. That's a policy that can enthuse their voters, but runs the risk of galvanizing people who don't want to leave the UK to turn out and vote against the SNP.

The Scottish Conservatives campaigned on a slogan of "Tell her again, say no to indyref2".

But that's not what happened. The Tories lost seven of their 13 Scottish seats and the SNP won 13. They now hold 48 of 59 MPs in Scotland, with one sitting as an independent.

This result cannot be interpreted as an outright demand for Scottish independence. But the SNP will vigorously argue that it does mean Scotland must be allowed to make a choice about its future - inside or outside the UK.

Nicola Sturgeon says she won't pretend that every single person who voted SNP necessarily supports independence. But she will insist this result is a thumping endorsement of her demand for a second referendum.

She will make an official request in the next few days to be granted the legal power to hold an independence vote.

And we know that Boris Johnson will refuse, sparking a huge debate about whether the Conservatives are ignoring the democratic choice of Scottish voters.

It's a debate that can only escalate as we leave the EU - and one which may fuel support for independence itself.

 

 

[Message Board User 12395]

4 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

you got me, that was exactly what I said. eyeroll.

I've pretty much voted for Dem in the Presidential race since '92. Nominate Bernie or Warren and I'm sitting out 2020. I'm a centrist Democrat and I would never vote for them.  I don't prefer Trump to them but I won't vote for them.  

And if it takes Trump winning in 2020 to shut down the far left progressive wing of the Dem party, that might just have to be a heavy price to pay.

 

Duck!

[GRHorn 105]

1 minute ago, Message Board User said:

Duck!

Yeah. That’s a scalding hot take that won’t be approved here 

[GSU&UT 1798]

9 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

you got me, that was exactly what I said. eyeroll.

I've pretty much voted for Dem in the Presidential race since '92. Nominate Bernie or Warren and I'm sitting out 2020. I'm a centrist Democrat and I would never vote for them.  I don't prefer Trump to them but I won't vote for them.  

And if it takes Trump winning in 2020 to shut down the far left progressive wing of the Dem party, that might just have to be a heavy price to pay.

 

Man, you hate to see bootlicking like this. Kids in cages, extreme tax cuts for the wealthy, and somehow trying to fight for a healthcare system and tax system that doesn't put undue burden on the poor and marginalized is worse.

[Fozzz 152]

10 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

you got me, that was exactly what I said. eyeroll.

I've pretty much voted for Dem in the Presidential race since '92. Nominate Bernie or Warren and I'm sitting out 2020. I'm a centrist Democrat and I would never vote for them.  I don't prefer Trump to them but I won't vote for them.  

And if it takes Trump winning in 2020 to shut down the far left progressive wing of the Dem party, that might just have to be a heavy price to pay.

 

If the Dems were serious about winning and governing then they would never court people like you. 

[Chrispy_ 105]

6 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

You think workers abandoned labour because of policies intended to benefit them, and not because labour waffled on brexit, something those workers passionately supported? 

Oh, Brexit definitely played a vital role. But the abandonment of the North by the Labour Party has been in the works for years. 

[alincoln 2371]

21 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

You think workers abandoned labour because of policies intended to benefit them, and not because labour waffled on brexit, something those workers passionately supported? 

Well that and being characterized as racist morons by the British version of the coastal elites.  

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

7 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

If the Dems were serious about winning and governing then they would never court people like you. 

oww.  you got me.

[GSU&UT 1798]

5 minutes ago, Chrispy_ said:

Oh, Brexit definitely played a vital role. But the abandonment of the North by the Labour Party has been in the works for years. 

If this radical leftism was the reason why Labour lost so badly then why did the Lib Dems (the outright self-proclaimed "centrists" in UK politics) also suffer heavy defeat? This election was overwhelmingly determined by Brexit and little more.

[Chrispy_ 105]

19 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

you got me, that was exactly what I said. eyeroll.

I've pretty much voted for Dem in the Presidential race since '92. Nominate Bernie or Warren and I'm sitting out 2020. I'm a centrist Democrat and I would never vote for them.  I don't prefer Trump to them but I won't vote for them.  

And if it takes Trump winning in 2020 to shut down the far left progressive wing of the Dem party, that might just have to be a heavy price to pay.

 

I won’t give you any rep because I don’t want you adorned with my scarlet letter, but this is a refreshing post. I think far too many are willing to burn the entire country down just to get Trump out of office. 

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

4 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

People like the idea of Joe now as some Obi wan of politics come to save America.  I’m not sure how they’re going to feel when he gets out there and starts speaking in tongues because his brain is mush.

This is what people have been predicting for over a year now.  Americans are stubborn as fuck.  Joe is popular, and Joe will remain popular even if it seems (and is!) completely illogical.

[SubliminalHorn 6786]

6 minutes ago, Chrispy_ said:

I won’t give you any rep because I don’t want you adorned with my scarlet letter, but this is a refreshing post. I think far too many are willing to burn the entire country down just to get Trump out of office. 

And many want to burn it down to keep him in office 

[alincoln 2371]

6 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

If this radical leftism was the reason why Labour lost so badly then why did the Lib Dems (the outright self-proclaimed "centrists" in UK politics) also suffer heavy defeat? This election was overwhelmingly determined by Brexit and little more.

Swinson tried to recast the Liberal Democrats as the home of identity politics.  Complete disaster to put it mildly.

[Chrispy_ 105]

4 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

If this radical leftism was the reason why Labour lost so badly then why did the Lib Dems (the outright self-proclaimed "centrists" in UK politics) also suffer heavy defeat? This election was overwhelmingly determined by Brexit and little more.

Centrists? Swinson called anyone that opposed their platform racist, hmmm I wonder is there is a lesson here? No, can’t be, it’s them not us.
 

The focus of the left towards London has been happening for some years now, hence the resentment by the working class. Their policies have been shit and they were properly destroyed. It’s now time for actual self reflection, well, at least if they want to be a party that’s taken seriously again.

 

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

My personal takeaway from this was the reminder that we all take in news via an echo chamber of our personal design, even if unintentional.  I didn't follow the election closely, but all passing remarks I would see indicated a sweeping Labour victory incoming.  I'm sure I could have gotten better info had I had any desire to search, but I didn't.  Being uninformed with bits of biased "news" here and there leads to a wildly uninformed opinion, and it's easy to see how so many Americans are so far off base from the facts.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

9 minutes ago, Chrispy_ said:

I won’t give you any rep because I don’t want you adorned with my scarlet letter, but this is a refreshing post. I think far too many are willing to burn the entire country down just to get Trump out of office. 

To be clear, if the race was Warren and Trump, for me Trump would fall into a category of Worst President Ever, and Warren - 2nd/3rd worst candidate ever.  I would rather sit out. 

And my lack of vote wouldn't be a sign that I agree with Trump's actions at all. It's the opposite but I'm not going to vote for a poor option just because I hate the other option. I also don't think my vote or lack of one would impact Texas' results one bit.

[GSU&UT 1798]

8 minutes ago, alincoln said:

Swinson tried to recast the Liberal Democrats as the home of identity politics.  Complete disaster to put it mildly.

Oh so you mean people blatantly wanted to go towards conservative/right-wing bigoted ideology and that's why Labour lost, not because of left-wing politics. Yes I agree.

You idiots can't make the statement that Labour lost because of radical leftism when the centrist party got crushed, if that were the case the Lib Dems wouldn't have lost nearly as many seats. This was about Brexit, reminder that Hillary Clinton's centrist ass lost in 2016.

4 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

My personal takeaway from this was the reminder that we all take in news via an echo chamber of our personal design, even if unintentional.  I didn't follow the election closely, but all passing remarks I would see indicated a sweeping Labour victory incoming.  I'm sure I could have gotten better info had I had any desire to search, but I didn't.  Being uninformed with bits of biased "news" here and there leads to a wildly uninformed opinion, and it's easy to see how so many Americans are so far off base from the facts.

This is 100% not true if you looked at the polling before the election. They weren't predicted to lose by this big of a margin, but they predicted to have at least 30 fewer MPs as the Tories.

Edited December 13, 2019 by GSU&UT

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

2 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

This is 100% not true if you looked at the polling before the election. They weren't predicted to lose by this big of a margin, but they predicted to have at least 30 fewer MPs as the Tories.

That's what I'm saying, though.  I was not very invested in this election so I never actively sought out information.  I just registered what fell into my lap (or twitter feed) and subconsciously formed an opinion from there.  

I definitely did not do what someone should do who wants to be accurately informed.  But it was eye-opening to me how easy it was to form a completely inaccurate world-view.