Washington DC Carjacking Teenage Girls

[Dahobbs 17,691]

27 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

That's not what I said. Nothing will be perfectly equitable, therefore it is racist.

Again, that is a fucking stupid take. The goal isnt "perfectly equitable." It is avoiding statistical signicant difference in treatment based solely on a race. I have no idea why you think that is an impossible goal. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Dahobbs

[GringoSalado 1,652]

45 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Again, that is a fucking stupid take. The goal isnt "perfectly equitable." It is avoiding statistical signicant difference in treatment based solely on a race. I have no idea why you think that is an impossible goal. 

Ahh, statistically significant. I honestly did not know that. Got a source for that?

 

edit:  "Statistically significant, based solely on race" is a def. I'm 100% behind, I just don't think that is what Systemic Racism means or how it is used today.

Edited April 2, 2021 by GringoSalado

[Dahobbs 17,691]

8 hours ago, GringoSalado said:

Ahh, statistically significant. I honestly did not know that. Got a source for that?

 

edit:  "Statistically significant, based solely on race" is a def. I'm 100% behind, I just don't think that is what Systemic Racism means or how it is used today.

I've literally posted a half dozen studies in this thread that found statistically significant differences in sentencing after controlling for as many other factors as possible. 

Ive also posted a definition for systemic racism, but I'll do so again since you don't seem to understand the concept:

"Institutional racism, also known as systemic racism, is a form of racism that is embedded as normal practice within society or an organization. It can lead to such issues as discrimination in criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power, and education, among other issues. Institutional racism can have harmful effects on people, especially on students in school where it is prominent.[1]

The term institutional racism was first coined in 1967 by Stokely Carmichael and Charles V. Hamilton in Black Power: The Politics of Liberation.[2] Carmichael and Hamilton wrote that while individual racism is often identifiable because of its overt nature, institutional racism is less perceptible because of its "less overt, far more subtle" nature. Institutional racism "originates in the operation of established and respected forces in the society, and thus receives far less public condemnation than [individual racism]".[3]

Institutional racism was defined by Sir William Macpherson in the UK's Lawrence report (1999) as: "The collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour that amount to discrimination through prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people."[4][5]"

We measure the discriminatory effect by looking for statistically significant differences in outcome after controlling for other variables. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Dahobbs

[GringoSalado 1,652]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

I've literally posted a half dozen studies in this thread that found statistically significant differences in sentencing after controlling for as many other factors as possible. 

 

Thanks?

[Dahobbs 17,691]

3 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

Thanks?

You asked for sources. I posted many on this thread, literally on the previous page. I don' t understand why you're participating if you can't be bothered look a few posts up. Anyway, see the the citations and links below. 

On 3/31/2021 at 4:58 PM, Dahobbs said:

Are you asking for a definition? Here is wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

In the US, a specific example would be the criminal justice system which disproportionality incarcerates black men and gives them more severe sentences than their white counterparts. 

 

On 3/31/2021 at 5:17 PM, TwiceHorn said:

https://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2020/07/visualizing-the-racial-disparities-in-mass-incarceration.html

Go to that blog, and put "racial disparity" in the search box on the middle left and you will come up with a couple of dozen references to statistical and other reports of disparate bad outcomes for minorities in the federal and state justice systems.

 

On 3/31/2021 at 5:24 PM, Dahobbs said:

I don't know what you consider reasonable, but from the wiki link:

• "Although approximately two-thirds of crack cocaine users are whites or Hispanic people (reported past-year use in 2013 of 0.8%, 0.3%, and 0.1% for Black, white, and Hispanic, respectively),[59] a large percentage of people convicted of possession of crack cocaine in federal courts in 1994 were Black people. In 1994, 86.3% of the defendants convicted of crack cocaine possession were Black people while 10.3% were whites and 5.2% were Hispanic people. In the state of California, 38% of people halted by police officers in Los Angeles were Black people, despite accounting for only 9% of the population.[74] In Washington D.C Black people make up 46% of the population but composed 72% of the people stopped even though the contraband hit rates between the two races are not statistically significant.[75] In Boston, Blacks made up 64% of those stopped despite making up only 24% of the population, even after controlling for alleged gang involvement and prior arrest records Blacks were more likely to experience repeat police encounters and to be frisked or searched during an encounter.[76] In Illinois minority drivers are stopped 1.5 more times than White drivers and latino drivers are nearly 2 times more likely to be subjected to dog sniff searches than White people but are found with contraband 1.6 times less.[77]"

• "A Stanford University study that analyzed 93 million traffic stops in the United States revealed that African Americans are twenty percent more likely to be stopped despite being less likely to be in possession of contraband compared to White people.[73]"

• "A Harvard University study[78] found that in Massachusetts' criminal justice system minorities face greater risk to be represented across all parts of the criminal justice system in excess of their proportion of the population in that state. The likelihood that they will get arrested and convicted due to drug or weapons charges is eight times greater than whites. Black people were found to receive average sentences that were 238 days longer for the same offences and Latino people 178 days longer. "

 

 

 

On 3/31/2021 at 10:06 PM, Dahobbs said:

Here are some more:

https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-differences-sentencing

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2413&context=articles

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23366801?seq=1

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/208129.pdf

https://news.gsu.edu/research-magazine/spring2020/incarceration

 

[GringoSalado 1,652]

You are amazingly obtuse, but a genuine thanks for the effort and links. I was only talking about "Systemic Racism" as it is used today, I'm not talking about "discrimination," "racism," "bias", "racial disparity" "statistically significant" etc.  or whether any of those things are real, measurable, or do exist.

[Dahobbs 17,691]

2 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

You are amazingly obtuse, but a genuine thanks for the effort and links. I was only talking about "Systemic Racism" as it is used today, I'm not talking about "discrimination," "racism," "bias", "racial disparity" "statistically significant" etc.  or whether any of those things are real, measurable, or do exist.

I gave you a definition and explained how the discriminatory effect is determined. Are you looking for a link that explicitly rejects you're made up interpretation of what systemic racism is? I've given you my understanding of the term and provided scholarly articles addressing that interpretation. I really don't know what else you'd want. 

[Brisketexan 105,432]

7 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

You are amazingly obtuse, but a genuine thanks for the effort and links. I was only talking about "Systemic Racism" as it is used today, I'm not talking about "discrimination," "racism," "bias", "racial disparity" "statistically significant" etc.  or whether any of those things are real, measurable, or do exist.

So....I'm just not sure what your argument/point is here?  Really, I'm not getting it.

[GringoSalado 1,652]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

I gave you a definition and explained how the discriminatory effect is determined. Are you looking for a link that explicitly rejects you're made up interpretation of what systemic racism is? I've given you my understanding of the term and provided scholarly articles addressing that interpretation. I really don't know what else you'd want. 

Genuinely sorry for the confusion, I'm only talking about the usage of that one term, your posts in response have covered lots of other topics, that was confusing to me as my post was specific, but I guess too short or ambiguous. 

Now that you appear to have addressed my argument, I respoind:

 

My interpretation of the meaning of "Systemic Racism" isn't any more "made up" than yours. My first google result is this article:

https://www.today.com/tmrw/what-systemic-racism-t207878

Quote

Jo Persad, a Boston-based high school science teacher and a student at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, describes systemic racism as “this ever-present force, kind of like gravity. You can't see it, but you can experience its effects and it ‘holds’ the world together. When you drop a pen, you see the effects of gravity. But the laws of gravity become more complex as they are used to explain phenomena at a planetary and galactical scale. Systemic racism can be likened to the latter. It is not (isolated racist acts), person to person; it is the intricate infiltration of racism into policies and the execution of said policies so that racist practices are perfused into everyday interactions.”

How do you solve something that is invisible, and only defined by the outcome? The next para from above link talks about disparate outcomes in health care, and says that is Systemic Racism. So my working definition is that any system that produces disparate outcomes can be so described. But all systems will have disparate outcomes.

 

 

[Kyle 207]

44 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

Genuinely sorry for the confusion, I'm only talking about the usage of that one term, your posts in response have covered lots of other topics, that was confusing to me as my post was specific, but I guess too short or ambiguous. 

Now that you appear to have addressed my argument, I respoind:

 

My interpretation of the meaning of "Systemic Racism" isn't any more "made up" than yours. My first google result is this article:

https://www.today.com/tmrw/what-systemic-racism-t207878

How do you solve something that is invisible, and only defined by the outcome? The next para from above link talks about disparate outcomes in health care, and says that is Systemic Racism. So my working definition is that any system that produces disparate outcomes can be so described. But all systems will have disparate outcomes.

 

 

Systematic racism more aptly is defined as the inherent belief by many that African Americans simply lack agency and ability to make good decisions and therefore need nice, privileged white folks to take care of them. 

[Dahobbs 17,691]

2 hours ago, GringoSalado said:

Genuinely sorry for the confusion, I'm only talking about the usage of that one term, your posts in response have covered lots of other topics, that was confusing to me as my post was specific, but I guess too short or ambiguous. 

Now that you appear to have addressed my argument, I respoind:

 

My interpretation of the meaning of "Systemic Racism" isn't any more "made up" than yours. My first google result is this article:

https://www.today.com/tmrw/what-systemic-racism-t207878

How do you solve something that is invisible, and only defined by the outcome? The next para from above link talks about disparate outcomes in health care, and says that is Systemic Racism. So my working definition is that any system that produces disparate outcomes can be so described. But all systems will have disparate outcomes.

 

 

Your confusion is in thinking that (1) the article you cited is inconsistent with the definition I've provided, and (2) that the information and studies I've provided are on other topics. Systemic/Institutional racism is observed through outcomes. When we say outcomes, we mean the statistically significant differences in outcomes after controlling for other variables besides race. I've been specifically addressing systemic racism in the judicial system, but you can see similar effects in other areas of life (e.g., employment). 

[sheeeit 129]

On 3/31/2021 at 9:20 PM, Dahobbs said:

Everyone who has been to either? I swear y'all are purposefully obtuse. The whole issue of systemic racism is that it isn't overt and obvious, and it is probably not intentional.  Y'all think you're being personally attacked. That isn't the case. Stop focusing on you, start thinking about others. 

There are so many problems with this simplistic line of thinking and reasoning.  

As for sentencing differences, there are so many different factors involved that it is really impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions from it.  Example- Defendant A slaps his girlfriend across the face because she cheated on him.  Pleads guilty to battery and serves 1 month.  Defendant B beats his gf bloody because he was high.  Pleads down to battery and serves 6 months.  When someone looks at the cases 10 years later all they see is 2 supposedly equal crimes with big differences in time served.  Maybe one was white and one black?  Maybe one was rich and the other poor?  But you should not draw any conclusions based on either race or economics in this case as the underlying facts were so different.  The economics or race were largely irrelevant in the sentencing but anyone can twist them.

Also, people used Los Angeles as one of the offenders and called it systemic racism.  However, during the period in question (2010-2016), Los Angeles had a black woman DA, a supreme court that was 72% minority, an overwhelming number of trial judges that were democrats (hard to get a good count but estimated to be 85%) and more ethnic prosecutors than in anytime previous.  According to the studies that you presented, during the time in question, LA was one of the worst offenders of unfair sentencing.  You claim it was race based.  For that to be true, there had to be some kind of coordination between a black woman district attorney (who sets the standard for the entire department) and a bunch of democrat judges and a bunch of minority prosecutors and an appellate court that oversaw the entire system that was 72% minority that all colluded to give black and hispanic criminals longer sentences than whites for the same crimes.  I think that is virtually impossible.  So I think the answer lies elsewhere.  

[Kyle 207]

6 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

There are so many problems with this simplistic line of thinking and reasoning.  

As for sentencing differences, there are so many different factors involved that it is really impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions from it.  Example- Defendant A slaps his girlfriend across the face because she cheated on him.  Pleads guilty to battery and serves 1 month.  Defendant B beats his gf bloody because he was high.  Pleads down to battery and serves 6 months.  When someone looks at the cases 10 years later all they see is 2 supposedly equal crimes with big differences in time served.  Maybe one was white and one black?  Maybe one was rich and the other poor?  But you should not draw any conclusions based on either race or economics in this case as the underlying facts were so different.  The economics or race were largely irrelevant in the sentencing but anyone can twist them.

Also, people used Los Angeles as one of the offenders and called it systemic racism.  However, during the period in question (2010-2016), Los Angeles had a black woman DA, a supreme court that was 72% minority, an overwhelming number of trial judges that were democrats (hard to get a good count but estimated to be 85%) and more ethnic prosecutors than in anytime previous.  According to the studies that you presented, during the time in question, LA was one of the worst offenders of unfair sentencing.  You claim it was race based.  For that to be true, there had to be some kind of coordination between a black woman district attorney (who sets the standard for the entire department) and a bunch of democrat judges and a bunch of minority prosecutors and an appellate court that oversaw the entire system that was 72% minority that all colluded to give black and hispanic criminals longer sentences than whites for the same crimes.  I think that is virtually impossible.  So I think the answer lies elsewhere.  

It is typical that these arguments fall apart when you it gets to the specifics. "Systematic Racism" and "White Supremacy" simply have been weaponized to shut down debate when intellectual arguments cannot stand on their own. If it was real, then white people would have the highest per-capita income, and emigrants would be fleeing the U.S. due to inability to succeed.

That's why I keep asking, can anyone name a system that is racist? Even in criminal justice - there's an easy way to avoid that.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Kyle

[LongestHorn 759]

9 minutes ago, Kyle said:

That's why I keep asking, can anyone name a system that is racist? 

Housing?

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

7 minutes ago, LongestHorn said:

Housing?

Housing is green meaning it's all about who has money, and who doesn't 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[52-80 19,262]

10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Housing is green meaning it's all about who has money, and who doesn't 

almost all systems are.  money talks.  everything else lies. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

13 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

almost all systems are.  money talks.  everything else lies. 

 Which will lead to the next battle money is a human right 

[Nonbryan 173]

Can we move this thread to the Cloakroom and start over?

 

[Nivek 16,992]

Housing is green meaning it's all about who has money, and who doesn't 

Not supported by facts of disparities in lending.

[52-80 19,262]

14 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Not supported by facts of disparities in lending.

Asians receive better lending rates than whites.  (Source = Pew Research).  Are whites systematically discriminated against?  or does money really do the talking?

BTW same claims were made against Goldman/Apple credit on the basis of gender... then the numbers were opened and disproved it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-23/goldman-didn-t-discriminate-with-apple-card-n-y-regulator-says

 

[dcar00 14,378]

39 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 Which will lead to the next battle money is a human right 

well of course.  its universal and basic.

[52-80 19,262]

 

anyone want to take a crack at the average income by race in america? 

and then, a step further, average education level by race? 

often times there's a better explanation than "because racism"

[Kyle 207]

49 minutes ago, Nonbryan said:

Can we move this thread to the Cloakroom and start over?

 

That's actually a really prescient point that illustrates how the "systematic racism" / "white supremacy" canard completely distracted from the actual issue.

[dcar00 14,378]

55 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

 

anyone want to take a crack at the average income by race in america? 

and then, a step further, average education level by race? 

often times there's a better explanation than "because racism"

Experian is wacist!!

[GringoSalado 1,652]

4 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Your confusion is in thinking that (1) the article you cited is inconsistent with the definition I've provided, and (2) that the information and studies I've provided are on other topics. Systemic/Institutional racism is observed through outcomes. When we say outcomes, we mean the statistically significant differences in outcomes after controlling for other variables besides race. I've been specifically addressing systemic racism in the judicial system, but you can see similar effects in other areas of life (e.g., employment). 

Is Institutional Racism a synonym now for Systemic Racism? Then why the new term?

 

Also, I don't think, and never stated, the article I cited is inconsistent with your (expert) opinion. Who are you arguing with?

 

I agree it is observed through outcomes. I guess we're making progress.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

2 hours ago, Kyle said:

It is typical that these arguments fall apart when you it gets to the specifics. "Systematic Racism" and "White Supremacy" simply have been weaponized to shut down debate when intellectual arguments cannot stand on their own. If it was real, then white people would have the highest per-capita income, and emigrants would be fleeing the U.S. due to inability to succeed.

That's why I keep asking, can anyone name a system that is racist? Even in criminal justice - there's an easy way to avoid that.

College admissions.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

College admissions.

Friggin' Asians...

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Friggin' Asians...

They get proper fucked for being white adjacent

[52-80 19,262]

23 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

They get proper fucked for being white adjacent

smhd, not enough extra curriculars.  

[JimmyJames 12,271]

I see the oppressed DT white crowd is having its usual circle jerk about how oppressed they are in comparison to those whiny blacks and the traitor woke white “left.” Why no MLB all star DT thread of anti wokeness yet?

[Dahobbs 17,691]

1 hour ago, GringoSalado said:

Is Institutional Racism a synonym now for Systemic Racism? Then why the new term?

 

Also, I don't think, and never stated, the article I cited is inconsistent with your (expert) opinion. Who are you arguing with?

 

I agree it is observed through outcomes. I guess we're making progress.

I don't know the full history of the terms. I believe they are just two different ways of expressing the same concept that have evolved in the literature. They are generally understood to be synonyms, although one could argue that systemic racism is a slightly broader expression than institutional racism. 

As to your second point, you said: "I was only talking about "Systemic Racism" as it is used today, I'm not talking about "discrimination," "racism," "bias", "racial disparity" "statistically significant" etc.  or whether any of those things are real, measurable, or do exist."

I understood this to mean that you think "systemic racism" is somehow distinct from the "racial disparity" and the "statistically significant" differences in outcomes based on race that I discussed. It is not distinct. It is all one topic. Systemic racism is the mechanism of action, statistically significant outcomes or "racial disparity" are the results of that mechanism. 

You also said: "I'm only talking about the usage of that one term, your posts in response have covered lots of other topics, that was confusing to me as my post was specific, but I guess too short or ambiguous."

Again, I took that to mean that you thought I was talking about topics other than systemic racism. I was not.

Finally, you said: "My interpretation of the meaning of "Systemic Racism" isn't any more "made up" than yours. My first google result is this article"

You then quoted the article. I read that to mean that you believed the article presented a different interpretation of systemic racism than the one I provided you. It did not, it was completely consistent with what I was saying.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Dahobbs

[Dahobbs 17,691]

3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

 

anyone want to take a crack at the average income by race in america? 

and then, a step further, average education level by race? 

often times there's a better explanation than "because racism"

The irony here is that you just illustrated systemic racism without realizing it. 

2 hours ago, Kyle said:

That's actually a really prescient point that illustrates how the "systematic racism" / "white supremacy" canard completely distracted from the actual issue.

Query, who brought it up first? Was the very people complaining that "systemic" racism is thing? In fact, wasn't bitching about the concept of systemic racism essentially the point of this thread? It seems to me like we are right on topic. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The irony here is that you just illustrated systemic racism without realizing it. 

Query, who brought it up first? Was the very people complaining that "systemic" racism is thing? In fact, wasn't bitching about the concept of systemic racism essentially the point of this thread? It seems to me like we are right on topic. 

You may not realize it yet, but you are about to be slammed with multiple posts not only showing that black people were not the only slaves, but in point of fact, white people have been much more enslaved over history so your argument is futile.  Blacks are the true oppressors here in America. I mean just look at the last stolen election. It is known. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

4 hours ago, Nonbryan said:

Can we move this thread to the Cloakroom and start over?

 

If they did that 90 percent of the posters here would run and hide. 

[TwiceHorn 31,550]

On 3/31/2021 at 8:30 PM, workswithseed said:

You used it and seem to believe it. I just wanted to make sure I understand without making myself look like a fool. Do you believe white supremacy is the best word for the definition then?

I never said I did.  It has the connotation of Klan/White Power etc.  But under the current usage it encompasses far less overt and conscious racism.

It's just words.  They do fairly accurately describe what has come to be the American system:  it started that way (slavery), stayed that was post-slavery (Jim Crow), and we still haven't gotten rid of all the artifacts of it.  And some are self-perpetuating.  Meaning the harm "perpetrated" in the past continues to negatively affect black people.  Example:  in the past, blacks were specifically and legally excluded from purchasing homes in certain areas without respect to their financial ability to do so.  That past policy makes it harder for the average black person to afford a home at all today, when that policy is illegal.

I don't like being called a white supremacist, but I'm a white guy who has benefited from a system set up to favor white guys.  I can't think of a single specific instance in my life where my "advancement" was directly at the cost of a black person, but in some indirect way, I'm sure it has happened.

Edited April 3, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[52-80 19,262]

17 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

The irony here is that you just illustrated systemic racism without realizing it.

Go on, give your take on the motivation, cause, and solution to this system. 

If I’m a credit card issuer, mortgage lender, etc, I’m after risk-adjusted profit and couldn’t give a damn if your skin is charcoal black or milk white. I want (or, rather, the computer model) your income, assets, outstanding loans, employment profile, credit score, etc. You keep your Pantone shade to yourself. 

Will guess you’re gonna construct a 20 layered onion of multigenerational multi factorial complex of discrimination....and if so, how is that an indictment of the lending system, and what do you propose to do about it other than throw a terse accusation?

[Sgt Hulk 13,845]

Def knew this thread would be super fucked.   Wish the judge would have smoked these 2 idiots. Watched this video over and over. They knew what they were doing. They need to be removed from society 

[Dahobbs 17,691]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

Go on, give your take on the motivation, cause, and solution to this system. 

If I’m a credit card issuer, mortgage lender, etc, I’m after risk-adjusted profit and couldn’t give a damn if your skin is charcoal black or milk white. I want (or, rather, the computer model) your income, assets, outstanding loans, employment profile, credit score, etc. You keep your Pantone shade to yourself. 

Will guess you’re gonna construct a 20 layered onion of multigenerational multi factorial complex of discrimination....and if so, how is that an indictment of the lending system, and what do you propose to do about it other than throw a terse accusation?

That's your problem. You think discussing a problem is an "terse accusation" aimed at you. It isn't. Systemic racism isn't generally about overt or even conscious racism. No one person is at fault. You aren't being accused of doing anything wrong. But, the fact remains that problem exists and has an observable effect on society. The first step to addressing the problem is recognizing it. I've discussed earlier that part of the solution is criminal justice reform, particularly avoiding the creation another generation if black children without available father figures. I don't know enough about the lending system to know what specific aspects of that system need reform, if any. 

[Brisketexan 105,432]

That's your problem. You think discussing a problem is an "terse accusation" aimed at you. It isn't. Systemic racism isn't generally about overt or even conscious racism. No one person is at fault. You aren't being accused of doing anything wrong. But, the fact remains that problem exists and has an observable effect on society. The first step to addressing the problem is recognizing it. I've discussed earlier that part of the solution is criminal justice reform, particularly avoiding the creation another generation if black children without available father figures. I don't know enough about the lending system to know what specific aspects of that system need reform, if any. 

You’ve pointed out something that’s important - there’s a natural defensiveness that comes about when a person thinks they’re being accused of racism. But systemic racism isn’t about that kind of racism or attitude. That’s actually the point. We can have a society that - today - is made up of nothing but non-racist people, but still has systemic racism. That’s because the systems and their effects are long-lived and deeply rooted.

We have a history that has put black people at a disadvantage for, literally, centuries. We had purposeful policies that were harshly discriminatory just 50-60 years ago, and not all of them are fully eliminated even today.

Give me 100 people from a group that was subject to purposeful and systemic discrimination for hundreds of years, vs 100 people from a group that wasn’t, and the second group is going to have a significant leg-up on and advantage over the first group. The systems that exist - systems built over those same centuries - will naturally favor the second group. It’s ok to acknowledge that reality. It doesn’t mean you are a racist because you’re a member of that second group. You didn’t do anything wrong, so you don’t need to be defensive. But if we want to have a well-functioning society, we still need to acknowledge those systems and their effects, and work to remedy them.

What took 350 years to build isn’t undone in 50 years. We have work to do. It’s ok to accept that.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

36 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Go on, give your take on the motivation, cause, and solution to this system. 

If I’m a credit card issuer, mortgage lender, etc, I’m after risk-adjusted profit and couldn’t give a damn if your skin is charcoal black or milk white. I want (or, rather, the computer model) your income, assets, outstanding loans, employment profile, credit score, etc. You keep your Pantone shade to yourself. 

Will guess you’re gonna construct a 20 layered onion of multigenerational multi factorial complex of discrimination....and if so, how is that an indictment of the lending system, and what do you propose to do about it other than throw a terse accusation?

Nice use of terse...  An under appreciated descriptor.  Your points are valid for todays (litigious) market.  I think a lot of the data is still using decades old info to create the systemic racism charge.

I think racism is falling more in the person to person/ one on one type as opposed to the business world for the most part.  

[52-80 19,262]

16 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

That's your problem. You think discussing a problem is an "terse accusation" aimed at you. It isn't. Systemic racism isn't generally about overt or even conscious racism. No one person is at fault. You aren't being accused of doing anything wrong. But, the fact remains that problem exists and has an observable effect on society. The first step to addressing the problem is recognizing it. I've discussed earlier that part of the solution is criminal justice reform, particularly avoiding the creation another generation if black children without available father figures. I don't know enough about the lending system to know what specific aspects of that system need reform, if any. 

Why would you think I attach myself to any accusation?  I’m not a lender. Moreover, deducing from your previous posts, we’re likely even the same (minority) race.  

I do find it extremely lazy and banal this tactic of crying wolf everywhere and which way, without an any substance. It’s hand-wavey. And then using the blame-cannon to blast lending as racist, it’s disingenuous. 

[Dahobbs 17,691]

14 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Why would you think I attach myself to any accusation?  I’m not a lender. Moreover, deducing from your previous posts, we’re likely even the same (minority) race.  

I do find it extremely lazy and banal this tactic of crying wolf everywhere and which way, without an any substance. It’s hand-wavey. And then using the blame-cannon to blast lending as racist, it’s disingenuous. 

Again, systemic racism is not about racists. Read Brisket's post above. It is about the remnants of past racism, both physical and psychological. For instance, studies show that people with black sounding names will be rated lower than the same applicant with a whiter sounding name. And it isn't because the people doing the rating are purposefully discriminating. If you've ever walked down the street and felt that twinge of heightned awareness of threat when a blackman passes, then you know exactly what I am talking about. It develops in the subconscious from years of messaging and images, from seeing blacks connected with gang violence and drugs. It becomes a self perpetuating cycle, with no conscious awareness needed by anyone. Once you're aware of it, it can be counteracted. But, the first step is recgonization. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Dahobbs

[Message Board User 12,396]

All this talk about systemic and institutional racism and you people (yeah I said you people) are missing the most systemically racist policy that has been implemented in the last 50 years, considering how sheer number (millions) of individuals who are directly affected and their vulnerability (children).

"Virtual schooling"

To bring this around to the original topic of the thread, I'd be curious if the teenage girls who committed this horrible act had spent a single millisecond in a classroom or learning virtually.  They, like so many other predominately minority kids, were put behind the 8 ball due to a lie (that schools are unsafe) perpetrated by people who should know better or who do know better but won't say so because of ulterior motives.  It should come as no surprise that DC and Maryland (home to some of the largest percentages of minority kids) have some of the lowest, if not lowest, rates of in-person schooling.

A few months ago I heard Covid 19 described as the "Pandemic of Privilege" and that is 100% spot-on.  These mitigation strategies (most of which turned out to be useless) primarily affected poor people and people of color.  To me, that is a textbook definition of systemic racism and it's still being perpetuated.

 

[Dahobbs 17,691]

6 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

All this talk about systemic and institutional racism and you people (yeah I said you people) are missing the most systemically racist policy that has been implemented in the last 50 years, considering how sheer number (millions) of individuals who are directly affected and their vulnerability (children).

"Virtual schooling"

To bring this around to the original topic of the thread, I'd be curious if the teenage girls who committed this horrible act had spent a single millisecond in a classroom or learning virtually.  They, like so many other predominately minority kids, were put behind the 8 ball due to a lie (that schools are unsafe) perpetrated by people who should know better or who do know better but won't say so because of ulterior motives.  It should come as no surprise that DC and Maryland (home to some of the largest percentages of minority kids) have some of the lowest, if not lowest, rates of in-person schooling.

A few months ago I heard Covid 19 described as the "Pandemic of Privilege" and that is 100% spot-on.  These mitigation strategies (most of which turned out to be useless) primarily affected poor people and people of color.  To me, that is a textbook definition of systemic racism and it's still being perpetuated.

 

You're not wrong that actions taken to lessen the toll of the pandemic are hurting the lower economic rungs more. And you're not wrong that it in turn disproportionality affects minority and thus is a further example of how systemic racism can be self-perpetuating without any racist intent. But your attempt to cast pandemic control measures as being the result of ulterior motives is as pathetic as it is misguided. What exactly is the "ulterior motive?" Bonus points: explain why that motive would still exist AFTER the most recent election and change in power. Actually, don't, take it to another thread as this one is wonky enough already. 

[52-80 19,262]

16 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Again, systemic racism is not about racists. Read Brisket's post above. It is about the remnants of past racism, both physical and psychological. For instance, studies show that people with black sounding names will be rated lower than the same applicant with a whiter sounding name. And it isn't because the people doing the rating are purposefully discriminating. If you've ever walked down the street and felt that twinge of heightned awareness of threat when a blackman passes, then you know exactly what I am talking about. It develops in the subconscious from years of messaging and images, from seeing blacks connected with gang violence and drugs. It becomes a self perpetuating cycle, with no conscious awareness needed by anyone. Once you're aware of it, it can be counteracted. But, the first step is recgonization. 

Everyone recognizes explicit, overt, historical discrimination.  And it having tapering effects to present day. But to amplify that and use as a license to demonize everything everywhere with tenuous rationale, is tiresome, maybe even dangerous. 

We have in this thread: all police are racists, housing is racist, lending is racist. Elsewhere, fight songs are racists. And no, there is no nuance accompanying any of those claims. What else can we castigate tomorrow?

If you’re into pro-CJ reform, I’m all for it. Along with drug legalization, raised social nets, abortion, etc. In fact most of this site is for all that?  But if you (not you, but certainly others) want to blame every goddamn incident and every outcome on racism....pure hogwash. 

[Brisketexan 105,432]

Everyone recognizes explicit, overt, historical discrimination.  And it having tapering effects to present day. But to amplify that and use as a license to demonize everything everywhere with tenuous rationale, is tiresome, maybe even dangerous. 

We have in this thread: all police are racists, housing is racist, lending is racist. Elsewhere, fight songs are racists. And no, there is no nuance accompanying any of those claims.

Just wanted to go with the above endpoint as a great example...demonstrating how your hyperbolic conclusion is pure bullshit?

There’s no nuance? This very board has a jillion page thread on the EOT, and only a tiny fraction of those posts are pure “the song is totally racist!” or “there’s nothing racist about it at all!” Instead, almost all of the discussion is about its origins, past, the things it called upon and referenced, etc. It’s a complicated thing.

As is modern lending, and housing. There’s no pure and clean “this is the one thing! It’s racism in the institution!” And I haven’t seen anyone here say that, either. Systems are complex, and we are literally discussing “systemic” racism.

Let’s go with the cop issue: not all cops are racist. But...the forces they’re on, with policies that have developed over decades or longer, and the culture which has been cultivated and handed down over those decades, included and incorporated racism. And many of their colleagues ARE racist. And the culture of silence and protection of the brother hood protects that racism more than in most workplaces/institutions. Those are not the ONLY features of modern police forces...but they exist, and exert real influence. The institution has defects and tumors within it that are racist in origin, and/or racist in effect. Again, I truly don’t understand how this is even controversial or arguable. We all know that in general, an identically dressed black guy driving an identical car as a white guy is more likely to be stopped by police, and is likely to cut less slack. No, not every stop. Not every cop. Not every black guy. But over time, yeah, it falls more heavily on the black guy.

Every one of the systems that we’re discussing has some degree of that going on. In some systems, the defects have declined to de minimize levels (a generic black guy gets reasonable service at a restaurant or hotel these days, for example - maybe not perfect all the time, maybe slightly less than a white guy would, but we’re pretty close). In others, even if the levels have declined, the effects themselves are still significant (CJ, housing). Those systems have other problems that are race neutral in both origin and effect, too (as noted, they are complex systems). But that doesn’t mean that the racial issues don’t still exist.

[Message Board User 12,396]

25 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What exactly is the "ulterior motive?"

Because they (the teachers union) don't want to go back to work, so they come up with any excuse to keep schools closed.

 

[Dahobbs 17,691]

10 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Everyone recognizes explicit, overt, historical discrimination.  And it having tapering effects to present day. But to amplify that and use as a license to demonize everything everywhere with tenuous rationale, is tiresome, maybe even dangerous. 

We have in this thread: all police are racists, housing is racist, lending is racist. Elsewhere, fight songs are racists. And no, there is no nuance accompanying any of those claims. What else can we castigate tomorrow?

If you’re into pro-CJ reform, I’m all for it. Along with drug legalization, raised social nets, abortion, etc. In fact most of this site is for all that?  But if you (not you, but certainly others) want to blame every goddamn incident and every outcome on racism....pure hogwash. 

It isn't an attack. Stop thinking of it as "castigating" anyone. It is a description of a process. No one is being demonized as racist in relation to systemic racism. You're reacting emotionally because of the term "racism." Stop doing that and just listen/read what people are saying.

Now, separately, overt racism does still exist. When it occurs, it should be pointed out and derided, including by you. If you (the royal you) feel attacked when an actual racist is called racist, then perhaps you need to take a long look in the mirror. 

[Dahobbs 17,691]

3 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

Because they (the teachers union) don't want to go back to work, so they come up with any excuse to keep schools closed.

 

And why don't they want to go to work? Is it, and I'm just spitballing here, because they are afraid of getting sick during a fucking pandemic? How in the blue fuck is that an ulterior motive? Maybe you could convince me that it is irrational (or at least not rational based on current evidence). But it still isn't an "ulterior" or wrongful motive. What is wrongful is attempt to cast it as such. So go fuck yourself. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Dahobbs

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

And why don't they want to go to work? Is it, and I'm just spitballing here, because they are afraid of getting sick during a fucking pandemic? How in the blue fuck is that an ulterior motive? 

Good thing grocery store workers, firemen, EMT's, nurses, drs, Delivery truck drivers, construction workers, factory/manufacturing workers, et al didn't decide to just walk away....  

The people who've walked away the most have been gov't workers until very recently. Municipal operations at most county, and state levels ground to a halt for almost a year. National park operations suspended, County, federal, and state assemblies operating under virtual  conditions.